The art of Abu Ghraib by Fernando Botero

fzrdan says on Apr 13, 2005, 10:34:

Maybe he should do some paintings of the beheading of Nick Berg, Shosei Koda, Kenneth Bigley, Jack Hensley, Eugene Armstrong. Or how about some suicide bombings?

People like this guy are pathetic. The treatment of these prisoners is horrific but he says nothing about the terrorists? Pathetic.

Same thing about the entire war. Many people say the USA is wrong, a bunch of war mongers, only looking for oil.... Where were these same people when Sadaam was killing his own people? Thousands of his own people? Pathetic. Truly pathetic people.

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Miguel says on Apr 13, 2005, 10:56:

Entonces Are you not a fan of Botero?

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ColombianoX says on Apr 13, 2005, 11:25:

Here's some pictures of those paintings:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?g=events/lf/041105boteropainting&a=&tmpl=sl&ns=&l=&e=1&t=&prev=2


I'm no art critric, but I think they're pretty good!

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 13, 2005, 12:30:

frzdan Since I keep getting a message saying that my comment can't be posted due to "suspicious input" or something like that, I'll just ask one question: could you let us know what Garcia Marquez should write next?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 13, 2005, 12:34:

fzrdan, Pathetic? I agree.

I think it was meant to be pathetic!

PATHETIC

.........1. Arousing or capable of arousing sympathetic sadness and compassion

............The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language: Fourth Edition. 2000.

Botero's Iraqi torture paintings had that effect on many people, including Colombians.

Plátano, moved to tears by the pathos of perpetual violence in Colombia and elsewhere

P.D. In the 1980's the USA was providing Sadaam with the weapons according to Mr. Rumsfeld.

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 13, 2005, 14:38:

Sister Wendy I love her show... where else can you hear a nun arousingly describing the qualities of a breast?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kernow62 says on Apr 13, 2005, 15:32:

Picasso is overrated! Heck I can draw a woman with three breasts and one eye!

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 13, 2005, 16:41:

Thanks Fzrdan... In regards to Botero, calling him pathetic is putting it mildly. I have absoulutlely no respect for the guy, now that he decided to take a political stand that is clearly designed to crticize the US.

I don't know Fzrdan, but why is it just you and I that are able to see this type of stuff?

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kernow62 says on Apr 13, 2005, 17:09:

So you think it is wrong to be critical when an obvious wrong was done? If you can't be critical what are you supposed to do, condone such behavior?

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 13, 2005, 18:14:

I'm no art critic either But I think the geist of the negative criticism to Botero has been his attempt to bring back classical forms into modern art, apparently a no-no by current standards. But he seems to be evolving in terms of themes: from rather folksy and romantic (yet voluminously creepy) imagery, to his current take on Colombian violence and -apparently- a mix of global issues, violence and visual culture. I also got bored by the repetition of his formula, but his recent stuff -regarless of its political stance- is making me kind of curious.

"political art has been around forever": I'd say show me art that is not political. (Explicitly political? Ahhh... that's a different story... I didn't know that that made you "pathetic"... must be one of those postmo art concepts).

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 13, 2005, 18:19:

Botero is acting from a sense of shock at USA behavior Botero said, "This conduct by the Americans was a total shock for me"

Strange comment. At age 72 Botero is old enough to have heard about raping women, and burning villages, and bombing hundreds of thousands of civilians in a country called Vietnam. I am surprised by Botero's shock that US soldiers would once again engage in illegal and immoral behavior. And yes, I also condemn FARC soldiers who violate civilians.

Botero was shocked because he expected different behavior from USA soldiers. So his paintings protest, but they also betray an implicit trust and faith in the goodness of USA soldiers. Bush and Rumsfeld both roundly condemned the torture, and Botero is joining them in the condemnation. Are Bush and Rumsfeld anti-USA too? Should we lose all respect for them?

Plátano

plátano

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poco says on Apr 13, 2005, 19:22:

What man will do to make a buck. Torture? Paint a dog dragging its bulbous pink ass on hot asphalt.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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kernow62 says on Apr 13, 2005, 19:48:

Damn you Platano and your logical ways, now I have lost all respect for Bush and Rumsfeld. Curses!!!

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dwmte says on Apr 13, 2005, 20:21:

colombiano... are images of these new works visible on line?

i'd like to see them and i wont be in poblado or any world gallery any time soon. pity.

dw

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fzrdan says on Apr 13, 2005, 21:51:

Gomezman, I don't know why. But, maybe I do...

They had to wear womens underwear? Who gives a shit? My point stands. Why the hell isn't he doing paintings about beheadings and suicide bombings? There is more uproar through out the world about the prison than all of the beheadings. Fucking beheadings!!! Do you know what that is? The damn terrorists cut the head off with a big fucking knife people! The US always gets the shit from the leftist pussies. That is right. You are all a bunch of pussies that need others to fight your battles and keep you safe. So a few guys had their balls licked by a dog and had to wear womens underwear. Big deal.

You people that think everyone should just get along and not fight are stupid. It will NEVER happen. Do you understand NEVER? It has never happened in history and it NEVER will.

If you knew half of the shit that went on to keep you safe in your bed every night, you would never leave your house because your knees would be knocking in fear. Live in your little Disneyland idea of how the world is. Keep believing that people willing to blow themselves up to kill just one American (yes, I said American, not United Staten) don't deserve to wear womens underwear. Pathetic people.


"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling, which thinks that nothing is worth war, is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
- John Stuart Mill ~ (1868)


"It is not the critic who counts, nor the man who points how the strong man stumbled or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena; whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly...who knows the great enthusiasms, the great devotions, and spends himself in a worthy cause; who, at best, knows the triumph of high achievement; and who, at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who know neither victory nor defeat." (translation of cold and timid souls: peacenik pussies)
Teddy Roosevelt


"Honor to the Soldier, and Sailor everywhere, who bravely bears his country's cause. Honor to also the citizen who cares for his brother in the field, and serves, as best he can, the same cause-honor to him, only less than to him, who braves, for the common good, the storms of heaven and storms of battle."
-President Abraham Lincoln


And don't tell me I should go do my duty because I did for 7 years. Yeah yeah..I am a warmonger. Whatever. I am done here. Too many whiny, peacenik, leftist pussies. Tinto and Lionheart, is that enough for you to delete my account? Damn.

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fzrdan says on Apr 13, 2005, 22:01:

One more thing. I couldn't care less about Botero and his paintings. I never knew the first thing about this guy until CX posted this. I care more about all the people that will see these paintings and agree that Abu Graib was horrible, but forgetting about beheadings and suicide bombings. Where are the paintings portraying these horrific acts? Where is the world outcry over these acts?

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kernow62 says on Apr 13, 2005, 22:44:

fzrdan, I find it interesting that many of the families of those beheaded do not blame the people who carried out the terrible acts, but place the blame on the US and British governments for leading the people into a war based upon lies. Surely if anyone should have hatred or revenge in their hearts these people should, but they don't. I guess these folks are just leftist pussies though.

I'm sure Botero is losing a lot of sleep because you don't care about him or his art. ;-)

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Miguel says on Apr 14, 2005, 00:38:

Botero On Line Check out EL COLOMBIANO 14 abril to see a few pictures of his latest work.

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BlondeJamesBond says on Apr 14, 2005, 03:45:

MHO I'm no leftist commie pinko
I'm no right-wing fascist, either.

I despise both in equal measure.

My feet are somewhere in the middle

I do find works of 'art' like this utterly pathetic.

The war should never have been started.

Lying politicians dragged brave British and U.S. soldiers into a war, that from what I can gather, most of them do not believe in or want to fight.

Therefore, anybody influential who now decides to do anything that may stoke up more resentment in Iraq by dwelling on misdeeds such Abu Ghraib, will inevitably end up putting the troops at further risk, and for that reason I condemn people like Sr. Botero. He can destroy the politicians in an artistic way at will, but leave the soldiers out of it, they are the politicans tools and do not deserve it.

Political satire is fine, and I'm sure the newspapers we read employ cartoonists, that may or may not, give us a daily laugh at the expense of politics. However, for me, 'art' like this falls into a different category.

If Sr.Botero is so concerned about the horrors in Iraq then perhaps a piece about the horrific crimes perpetuated by the terrorists would have allowed his art to pass without an overt political/anti-U.S. agenda.

If he is so concerned about prison abuse, I eagerly await his pieces on Wormwood Scrubs, Belmarsh, Strangeways, Barlinnie etc (British jails for those that don't know)

(and i'm absolutely certain he won't lose an ounce of sleep based on my opinons)

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kernow62 says on Apr 14, 2005, 05:34:

BJB you raise a couple of interesting points. However true the part about putting the troops in more harm may be, the fact is Sr. Botero did not initialise that process, the soldiers who perpetrated those acts did that for their fellow soldiers. I do not buy this argument against Botero's works on this subject. It would be like saying the whole thing should have been hushed up, swept under the carpet to protect the troops. I know that is what the government would have preferred. The press should not have shown the photographs by the same reasoning.

I know there are a great many fine young men & women in the service, but it seems like the macho rambo wanabees are also amongst them in some number. Personally I could not answer how I would act in those same conditions, by the same token I might gladly behead people who invaded my country, unless I am put in that position I will not know how I would behave.

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dwmte says on Apr 14, 2005, 06:17:

although i'm not a botero fan... i have, however, been around and enjoyed some of his art, for years. and after being to an opening in poblado and reading articles and hearing interviews, i would be considered one who had a good feeling about mr. botero. however, this recent disclosure, brings me doubt.

i would like to believe/think that the artist is informed, compassionate, humane and liberal. so, seeing these works on abu graib, i'm more convinced that they are a statement on his particular proclivities and abberations rather than a statement on politic or morals.

i note that he is taken by men wearing ladies panties, men in sexual poses (albiet staged) and the sado masochistic aspects of whipping and other physical abuse. he strikes me as a universal pervert.

if this is a wrong judgement--say me nay--then he must place roll playing tantamount to live beheadings, bombing of girl's and women's schools, murder of innocent iraquis, terrorist attacks without end and the cowardism of hiding to conceal their identity and hopefully separate them from their cowardly deeds...ignorantly overlooking the fact that nothing is concealed from GOD. WOE UNTU THEM WHO DO BLASPHEMYS IN THE NAME OF THE LORD!

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GAP says on Apr 14, 2005, 09:01:

I'm sure plenty of countries like Iraq and Colombia have also disobeyed the Geneva Convention and I'm sure the USA's actions pale in comparison to theirs.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 09:17:

Whoa! Was it National Angry Reactionary Coming Out Day yesterday?

Anyway, matters of war and politics should be discussed in the other forum, right? This (lemme read again, yes) is the FRIENDLY talkzone.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 14, 2005, 10:10:

Funny I don't like Botero's works because I find them sentimental and "cute". So I'm glad to see him paint some work with a little anger and balls.

As far as the outraged reactionaries bitching about "why doesn't he paint the beheadings and other terrorist actions", I can't speak for Botero but I'm willing to guess that it's not as interesting a subject to him because we EXPECT evil from terrorist. So there's no breach of trust, no transgression. However, when the US Military does it, despite Viet Nam, etc., there's still a generalized shock that a force supposedly representing freedom and democracy would stoop to torture.

That's your free bit of art criticism for the day, and worth every cent you didn't pay for it.

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ColombianoX says on Apr 14, 2005, 10:45:

"As far as the outraged reactionaries bitching about "why doesn't he paint the beheadings and other terrorist actions", I can't speak for Botero but I'm willing to guess that it's not as interesting a subject to him because we EXPECT evil from terrorist."

Mr. Hollywood, I was also going to say the same thing but you beat me to it!

I see no problem with Botero latest works, they're just social commentary. Just like (north)american artists (in the broader sense of the word) like director Joshua Marston can make a movie about colombian social ills such as the mule problem (i.e. Maria Full of Grace), colombian artists like Botero have the right to comment upon some of the problems of the US.

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:30:

Fzrdan/Kernow This is why you guys don't see me much anymore. Your liberal political agendas permiate this site/

Fzrdan......what more can I say? Well put. I am %100 with you on this one. My only suggestion to you is----don't waste your energy. We have all these not Americans criticizing the US....constantly. I just wish someone can explain to me why they come here? Why? They can leave. I guess that is why they are here. Because many of them know that they CANNOT safely be critical of their government's actions in the countries that they come from. Hmmmmm.

Kernow. The Abu Grab situation is old news. And if you recall at all, people have been fired from their positons, people have been demoted, and people have gone to jail as well. Congressional investigations took place almost immediately. What more do you want? Do you think that anything like this would happen in Colombia. Yes remember Colombia? The country where a bunch of you fools write things about which you guys no nothing. Just dreamers. The country where the military and national police has a history of being corrupt and torturing people as well as the best of these types of countries. Colombia turns it's back on it's incompetent and dishonest military all the time. By the way Kernow, your fellow liberals at Human Rights Watch, put Colombia at the top of the list with the countries most guilty of this nonsense.

Why doesn't Botero create some art about his fellow countrymen/ Huh ? Answer please. Try if you can!!! He can't because he knows he can't. He would be dead in no time.....poof...out like light.

Hail Colombia. Down with the US. Fools....inconsistent, and contradictory you liberal US bashing people are...Why don't you guys at least acknowledge your hypocritcal ways?

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ColombianoX says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:33:

"Why doesn't Botero create some art about his fellow countrymen/ Huh ?"

Hold on there Gomezman, Botero already has made several paintings depicting the violence in Colombia!

BTW, how was your trip to Florida?

Saludes,

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:34:

Actually, While we're speaking of ignorance, Gomezman5, Botero DID do a similar series of paintings about the violence and problems of Colombia. And he came to Colombia and displayed them.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:34:

NARCO Day HA HA HA... I just realized that National Angry Reactionary Coming Out Day spells NARCO... apparently it is a two-day event.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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ColombianoX says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:37:

Here's a good article about his paintings concerning Colombia's violence:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Art%20Essays/BoteroTurnsFromWhimsyToWar.html


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:46:

those paintings depicting violence in Colombia were part of the Botero exhibition here in Stockholm a few years ago. I've seen them. I wouldn't want to have them hanging on my walls but they were making a strong statement.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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fzrdan says on Apr 14, 2005, 11:58:

wow, my account still works.

Sr Tertius, NARCO, that is some funny stuff.

Mr. Hollywood. *That's your free bit of art criticism for the day, and worth every cent you didn't pay for it.*

I didn't pay for it? I paid for it with my 7 years in the military, making sure the liberal peacenik pussies could complain about a few guys having to wear womens underwear, and I could complain about the liberal peacenik pussies.

By the way, you want to know what torture is? Ask a POW from WWII in the hands of the Japanese. Ask a POW from Vietnam. That is torture! Wearing a dog collar and womens underwear is not torture. Even if they got a few punches to the face or the gut, that is not torture. You people that think these guys were 'tortured' don't have a clue.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 12:09:

The thing about modern art (Trying to stick to the freaking topic here)

Tinto: I think your comment about "standing the test of time" borrows from a rather dated notion of how aesthetics work. Can anything seem more futile than Duchamp's "ready-mades"?, I mean, who'd want to buy a damn urinal just because it is signed by Duchamp? Yet, these are objects that shook the way we see the world, and derive their value from that.

And it is not a matter of whether these objects compete with other forms of media. Take pop-art, for instance. Warhol's Marilyns or Jackies do not compete with the transiency of celebrity media, in the way that Botero's depiction of Abu Ghraib do not appear to compete with news media: it feeds from it and reflects it back transformed.

That been said, I must admit that I was utterly confused by the stuff I saw at the '02 Whitney Biennial. And what's with Christo & Jeanne-Claude?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 14, 2005, 12:25:

Brilliant "Wearing a dog collar and womens underwear is not torture."

I defer to your experience on this front, fzrdan.

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kernow62 says on Apr 14, 2005, 12:42:

Once again Gomez you have proven yourself less than knowledgeable about Colombia. Heck even I knew about Botero's paintings showing the violence in Colombia and I don't claim to be from Colombia.

I do not condone the torture no matter who is doing the torturing. It is not America bashing, it is speaking out against a wrong, plain and simple. Disagreeing does not make one any less patriotic it just means they have a mind and can think for themselves. I also don't doubt that other countries are doing the same and worse, I don't doubt there is a lot worse we are doing that doesn't come out.

If Americans feel free to speak out against what they see as injustice around the world then surely the world has a right to speak out against an injustice in or from the USA.

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 12:42:

Marilyn 3rd and Guernica 4th! We're talking about the cream of the crop here! And it is impossible for me to believe that the canon of contemporary art hasn't made a dent on the way regular folks like you and me see the world. Mondrian is EVERYWHERE in the form of ugly buildings from the 60s, and beautiful Corbusiers (http://www.greatbuildings.com/architects/Le_Corbusier.html).

Would Botero have a similar effect? Well, I don't think it is comparable to Picasso, Warhol or Mondrian, but the collective view of many artists little by little redirect our view of things. Botero has probably been more influential through his outdoors sculpture than through his paintings.

Nevertheless, I'm sure there is a bunch of crap out there that relies exclusively on its shock value.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 12:58:

The Blame Game Kernow: I completely agree with you. Let me add a couple of words: Few things are as petty, mean spirited and reactionary as the automatic assumption that when someone takes a critical stance it is out of hatred for race, nationality or religion. When people criticized the Catholic church for implicitly condoning child molestation among its ranks, there were no priests out there saying "well, what about those other pervs out there? it's not like we are the only ones". Criticism of the church was never taken as anti-Catholic. If anything, it was pro-Catholic, acknowleding that the church has a reputation and a moral standard above the regular deranged pervert.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 14, 2005, 18:45:

Sure Kernow..... I am less than knowledgeable about Colombia than you. And Bosnia has a better football team then England....or Colombia has a better football team than Argentina.

If you, Hollywood, and Desi really think that the display that you are refereincing was of the same type as this one....it is you that can't seperate the forest from the trees. That display did not specifically lay blame on any one side. It was a display that just described the situation in general as it exists in Colombia. It did NOT point a finger at any one side.

On the other hand, this recent creation was clearly designed to embarass the United States...to make us look like the bad guy. And of course, according to you liberals, the US are always bad and wrong and are nothing more than a bunch of imperialistic aggressors.

When this Abu Ghraib problem came about, nobody screamed about getting to the bottom of the problem than the citizens of the US. We saw the problem for what it was, and we dealt with it.

The point that you liberal fools seem to be missing, is that the the overall good in Iraq has far outweighed the bad. In any war, there is going to be mistakes. Mistakes are an aberation....an exception. Therefore to concentrate on an issue that has already been dealt with without doing something that points out the positive or constructive steps that have been taken, makes the artist look biased in his views.
As Frzdan points out, at least if he did something that talks about the attrocities of the suicde bombers, or the absoulute bizare actions of these slaughter house assasins that take no shame at comitting the most brutal murders I have seen in modern times...with the cutting off of peoples heads, then maybe I would say this idiot Botero has some credibility.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 14, 2005, 19:27:

Señor Gomez "And of course, according to you liberals, the US are always bad and wrong and are nothing more than a bunch of imperialistic aggressors."

Time to adjust your tinfoil hat, friend. The transmitters in your head are channeling Limbaugh again.

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 14, 2005, 20:29:

Hollywood. you are correct Rush stays on the radar screen. So does Sean. By the way, I also help keep Fox's ratings ahead of CNN, and MSNBC combined in the nightime prime time hours. Obviously I have a lot of company. Uh by the way, Hollywood. If you go to realpolitics.com, you will see a hell of a lot of geography in this country bleeding Red. (AT least 4 times the rate of blue) I feel quite at home....with whole lot of company

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platano says on Apr 14, 2005, 20:50:

Estimado G5 Dittohead, (By the way, the great Maha-Rush-i uses a G5 Apple Macintosh)

You say: "At least 4 times the rate of blue" but that is a bit misleading. In terms of geographic area you are correct: 2.54 million square miles for Bush, and 592,000 square miles for Kerry.

In terms of number of residents in those geographic areas you are incorrect:
Population of counties won: 159.2 million for Bush, and 130.9 million for Kerry.
Not even a 2 to 1 ratio.

SOURCE: Election 2004, USA Today,
http://www.usatoday.com/news/politicselections/vote2004/countymap.htm

In terms of number of votes actually cast the numbers are even closer:
Approximately 60 million for Bush, and, approximately 56 million for Kerry.
It's more like an even split now since Bush's approval ratings have gone down to 45%.

"All other presidents who served a second term had approval ratings well above 50% in the March following their election, Gallup reported.
Bush's current rating is 45%. The next lowest was Reagan with 56% in March 1985."

SOURCE: Editor & Publisher
http://www.editorandpublisher.com/eandp/news/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1000866232

Don't be depressed, G5!

Plátano

plátano

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b bruce says on Apr 14, 2005, 21:00:

The Horrors of Abu Ghraib? you have got to be kidding me! Horrors? All those knuckleheaded National Guard dudes did was nothing more then what our collage kids do to other collage kids in fraturnity hazing. So they pants a couple of them. Took embarrasing pictures of them. Was this Fernando Botero at the prison painting the pictures? Perhaps he was behind it all. Maybe they were posing for his paintings! Where was Senior Botero when that picture of all the Colombian Commando's who were posing with the body of Pablo Escobar hit the street. It seems the pictures are clearer then his paintings. Senior Botero is just another angry socialist trying to make a point. And no one is listening!

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platano says on Apr 14, 2005, 21:11:

It was torture...and Botero and Bush were correct to condemn it When systematic mistreatment of prisoners of war is so severe that it results in the deaths of the prisoners such mistreatment can legitimately be called torture according to President Bush's attorney's legal memo. Why are you going against Bush?

"...sworn statements provided to Army investigators by military intelligence and police at Abu Ghraib contain at least four references to CIA detainees dying during interrogations..."

SOURCE:
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20050404/ts_nm/security_cia_dc

Plátano

plátano

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 14, 2005, 21:48:

What is going on here? Am I missing something? I've been commenting under the following assumptions:

1. The topic here is not the US responsibility for Abu Ghraib or how you feel about the war in Iraq. I've been admonished to keep on topic when discussions like this pop up. Is this an exception? Aren't there any other blogs where people can vent their reactionary histeria? Maybe here: http://www.hannity.com/forum/

2. Certain things must be taken as a given. Correct me if I am wrong: the overwhelming majority of the people outside the US (like Mr. Botero) consider the incidents of Abu Ghraib a major violation of human rights, something reprehensible, denounceable, etc. etc. You may argue that these people are wrong, don't understand, are stupid, leftist pussies pushing a liberal agenda, whatever. What is not disputable is that there is a consensus, at least outside the US (that's where Mr. Botero reside), about where these incidents stand from a moral point of view.

3. So, the controversy here is not how such incidents should be judge -for which there is a consensus already-, but how they are depicted by Mr. Botero. These are two VERY different issues. If you want to dispute the first, this is probably the wrong forum. The second matter, I believe we can talk about.

I yield to the better judgment of the moderators.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Apr 14, 2005, 22:02:

The political interpretations have hijacked artistic expression With apologies to Mr. Tertius, and back on topic:

The link I provided in my last post did contain an image by Mr. Botero. If AP picked it up then Mr. Botero's images are being disseminated.

As you correctly note, there is a consensus outside the USA, where Mr. Botero resides, that such torture is immoral and illegal. President Bush, Republicans, Democrats, and human beings in general condemned it. The condemnation of torture has no political stripes.

This is not about Bush-bashing or anti-USA, IMHO. It is about condemning behavior that offends human decency wherever it occurs: in Cuba, Syria, Venezuela, China, France, Colombia, or anywhere else.

Those who view Botero's recent work are free to interpret Mr. Botero's images as political commentary if they wish. I see it as Mr. Botero being moved by inhuman events... and that movement resulted in an artistic expression.

When I see Picasso's famous work "Guernica", I don't see it as a criticism of a nationality. I see it as a condemnation of inhumanity of universal proportions. That is the same way I see Botero's recent work. That is just my non-political interpretation of this art work though I recognize it may transcend the particularity of the artist's words. I reserve the right to ignore and interpret as I please. I have no idea what Picasso "said" about Guernica and his words are lost. What remains is the image. I care little what Botero has "said" about these paintings because the images will remain long after the words have been forgotten and my interpretation will eventually become the consensus view: this in not about the USA, it is more universal as a representation of indecent behavior wherever it occurs.

Plátano

Disclaimer: I do not hold a Masters of Fine Arts degree. I am a simple "bobo". :)

plátano

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 14, 2005, 22:10:

Platano.....depresssed???? No....you are correct. The numbers are misleading. But the reality of the situation is, Bush still won decsively. In fact, Bush was closer at winning Wisconsin (about 1% point) than Kerry was at winning Ohio. That would have only added to Bush's comfortable victory. Look, when Bush won Florida so fast and so decisively, it was clear that Bush could not lose the election. Afterall, Florida was one of those three states that were considered a "toss up" up to the last minute.

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elmodefoque says on Apr 15, 2005, 05:26:

Never mind all this insignificant stuff about tortures in Abu prison in Japan, Botero, selfish rich republicans versus rich but caring democrats, what really matters is how the hell am I gonna afford hookers every weekend in Colombia on my measly USA social security check? I worked almost 30 years and I’m getting back almost nothing. Ok, I was sent on 3 year vacation but still, I think I deserve more.
When I return to Colombia I could move down a couple notches to estrato 1 neighborhood and maybe pay 50 dollars a month on rent but then the quality of hooker would no be the same as the ones from estraro 3. Do I have to settle for toothless old hookers or just go back the way I started my life, with burras. It’s so weird how my life made a complete circle. I have no choice but to go back where I started from, nothing! Adios to north Barranquilla and my 2 balconies with a corroncho doorman, reality is I can’t afford to live up there. the only good thing about poverty, it has always been my loyal companion, has been with me where ever I go and it will take me to my grave.
All my life I have fallen in love with hookers and strippers and the way it looks I’ll probably will die in the arms of one, I hope she’s kind enough to dump my ass in el Rio Magdalena and not let me rot in some steaming hot broken down home with hungry filthy dogs barking, trying to get in to have a meal.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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babygirl says on Apr 15, 2005, 06:02:

mmmmmm Army Guys! Elmo, you're my hero!

Lighten up guys, it wasn't really torture, right? I personally love cross-dressing and crawling around wearing dog collars especially when I have a gun pointed at me. Why were some of these guys in prison anyway? Wait a sec, what are the US soldiers doing in Iraq? OH MY GOD! I'm sure that Botero will not be the last to depict the horrors of the US invasion of Iraq through his/her artwork so get used to it and get over it!

cheers - babygirl

Canadian Girls Kick Ass!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Apr 15, 2005, 06:48:

Personally, I find it amusing when grumpy old rightwingers call people they don't know "liberal pussies" just because they believe an artist has the right to paint whatever he wants.

It's really easy to call people pussies, traitors, femi-nazis, commies, etc, over the radio or internet, but most right-wing online loudmouths turn out to be the meekest little mice when you meet them in person.

Elmo, the hooker dilemna is an age old problem. I'm sure you'll find your path. With your charm and contacts may I suggest you become a Barranquilla pimp, thus solving your financial and sexual shortfalls?

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Gomezman5 says on Apr 15, 2005, 06:52:

Elmo.....the problem is Barranquila...sorry Look Elmo, on Cr 15, just a half a block away from my uncles home in Bogota, you can find all the young good looking hookers you want for 10,000-15,000 pesos. Now are you trying to tell me you can't afford that? That's a bit more than $5. But then again, it's been a while, since I inquired about such things.

So Elmo, come down to Bogota and forget all those morenas in Barranquilla.

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elmodefoque says on Apr 15, 2005, 07:04:

$1.50 is the max i could pay for a hooker, i need one for fri, one for sat and one for sunday. i also need a dozen cerveza aguila at 800 pesos each and half a dozen for her. i need like a dozen to get nice and mellow and of ofcourse a bottle of aguardiente, 7 mil pesos. i stayed home yesterday and added everthing up and it don't look good.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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elmodefoque says on Apr 15, 2005, 07:06:

hey Mr. H, pimping my just be the answer to my dilema.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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fzrdan says on Apr 15, 2005, 07:20:

mr hollywood. I am not old and I am not grumpy. I call them like I see them. Peacenik pussies are peacenik pussies. I am not a meak little mouse. It is also very easy for you to act like a tough guy and talk shit as well. You are exactly the kind of person I am talking about.

And babygirl, 'the horrors of the US invasion.' Another person for 'human rights' saying the war is wrong. Where were was your big mouth when Sadaam was killing, raping, maiming his own people? Probably in the back room of some brothel getting your face pounded into a headboard. Whatever. You people are all the same.

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