The 15 "Traps" of Poverty in Colombia

goin_south says on Oct 15, 2006, 21:18:

that is so much socialist and left-wing journalist writing Poor also is a relative concept. I am poor in respect to certain others. But, not complaining about it.
Jesus Christ himself said, the poor will always be with you (us).
He was (is) right. They will. And, some of them don't want, nor have the capacity, to change to what you think is better for them.
Some of the poorest people on earth, are some of the happiest.
I understand and also am for sharing a certain amount of the wealth of the state.

But, again, look at the name of the site, and think: poor but happy.

Do what they do in the USA: have a fundraiser every other week for whatever cause it is you want to elevate.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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juancegomez says on Oct 15, 2006, 21:38:

I disagree I doubt that it's especially leftwing, much less socialist, to describe the evident poverty existing in Colombia, some of its effects and probable causes, including some potential proposals. The article isn't calling for socialism anywhere and, by the way, even that wouldn't necessarily be a good or bad thing either (it depends on what you mean by socialism, frankly). I don't see where you're coming from with that.

It is true that poverty cannot be fully removed from Colombia, nor from this world for that matter. Humanity doesn't know how to do so, at least not at this stage. You're right about that.

But it can, however, be reduced and that's what society, not just Colombian society but humanity itself, should strive to do.

Indeed, the poor can be happy, one of the article in Semana shows that to be true enough, but that does not justify ignoring poverty and allowing it to grow unopposed.

Fundraisers can help, but it makes no sense to simply gather resources and distribute them like candy if you don't actually have a real plan to employ them wisely, and you need to take a close look at the state of poverty in the country, any country, in order to do that.

Simply ignoring the problem won't make it go away, even if it may make some people feel better about it.

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goin_south says on Oct 15, 2006, 22:04:

This is a catastrophic topic, but most would agree in simplicity, that education, desire and opportunity will diminish the poverty level. So would less greed on the part of the Corporate world. Yet many of those corporations loom large in the world of charity. I think my point is the absurdities you read about when an executive is making $45,000 per hour; after a weeks wages, I could build a great school!

But, then there are those here on PBH, who are Colombian, and say to leave the 'indigenous people' alone and I understand. And, I know, they are only one small part of the whole of impoverished people in Colombia or elsewhere.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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juancegomez says on Oct 15, 2006, 22:26:

Well... "Education, desire and opportunity" sounds fine, but exactly how would you provide those factors, especially education and opportunity, is what matters. And that's where these articles come in.

I can agree about those corporate absurdities, but then again, while generic charity alone can help, it doesn't automatically provide neither education, desire or opportunity, if it's not applied correctly and in enough quantities.

As for your last paragraph, that comes a bit out of the blue, since you yourself wrote that the indigenous are only a fraction of the poor, and in fact they are a much smaller group within the entire Colombian population as a whole.

Their situation is still different because, at the same time, there's the issue of indigenous autonomy and the separate set of demands that concept brings along with it, something which is independent of poverty per se.

Poverty should also be reduced among the indigenous, but respecting their autonomy. If they don't want to receive certain kinds of help, I don't really think that it's merely a matter of "leaving them alone", but of respecting their beliefs, cultures and traditions (as flawed as they may be, in Western eyes). The kind of help that they do want, of course, should be provided, and they have a right to demand it.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 16, 2006, 09:43:

Very interesting topic, juance
and unlike galecito, I see nothing left-wing in the style of writing or presenting the facts and some possible ways of getting out of these poverty pits.
I'd start with number 12 on that list and made sure everybody paid their taxes and that those monies ended up in state treasury and not in the pockets of individual funcionarios. I'd raise the taxes in proportion to income, I'd make people from Bogotá pay a "Robin Hood Tax" which would go to develop the hinterlands. I'd make private car owners pay a special fee every time they drive in the city. I'd audit companies more punctually, I'd finish with the chancuco and corruption and I'd divert money from Plan Colombia to social programs, start capital for microempresa and subsidize health, education and housing.

Now, galecito, this is left-wing writing.

Cheers,
Desi
«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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bhill says on Oct 16, 2006, 10:33:

Poverty I know one guy who does not have the money to buy a libreta militar. No one will hire him without one. If that is not a vicious circle, I don't know what is.

-Brian

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goin_south says on Oct 16, 2006, 22:22:

Desideria, please don't do that one thing. "I'd raise the taxes in proportion to income"

Please don't kill the motivation to work, produce, and earn income. I am every bit for taxing luxury spending, or... the more a thing cost, the more the tax percentage. Sales and luxury taxes, fine. But, please let's not tax those who are driven to make a dream life or a better life for themselves and their families. Otherwise, your in. Change this one thing, and you got my vote.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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famsearch says on Oct 17, 2006, 20:58:

gale... let's not forget that we tried that tax on luxury items here in the states when jimmy carter was president. it almost put the boatbuilding industry on the east coast out of business. people were not buying new boats, and were buying boats that were a year or two old, and avoiding the tax. with no orders coming in, the boatyards were forced to lay off people, and in most cases, shut down altogether. a lot of jobs, and the tax revenue generated by those jobs, were lost.
dan

dan

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goin_south says on Oct 17, 2006, 21:54:

dan I have little pity for boatbuilders. Probably someone else benefitted, while they lost. But, in the end, boat builders could be very special; starting to wonder if I am going to need one - a boat - to get my colombian girlfriend up here ;)

And, you are giving away your age, or maybe you are well-read historian; I don't remember Jimmy Carter doing away with other taxes, and having only spending taxes. I am talking about taxing everything you buy, and the more it costs, then the greater the tax. Think also about how it would keep costs down,.... just as you said. People started buying boats that cost less.

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 17, 2006, 23:28:

I wrote a very long and very left-wing post yesterday about all the benefits that come from raising taxes but this site was dodgy and wouldn't allow me posting it so you guys were spared.

Cheers,
Desi


«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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goin_south says on Oct 17, 2006, 23:30:

Ooooooh! buena manana, y muchas gracias, Desideria! (Was it destiny, or fate?) Y, buenas noches ahorita. Damn. Why do you get up so early? What time is it, there in Siberia?

Why Not Colombia?..........Stay Tuned, for more.... utterly worthless, self-indulgent gobbets of nonsense.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 18, 2006, 11:11:

something like that, I s'ppose Siberia? hardly that, we've got balmy autumn temperatures around 12 C.(Celcius=Centigrade)

Cheers,
Desi

«Sé que los seres humanos y los peces podrán coexistir en paz». ( George W. Bush, Saginaw 29-09-00)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juancegomez says on Oct 18, 2006, 11:55:

Desi: I also agree with raising taxes, in a progressive manner (the more you make and own, the more you must pay, with little or no tax benefits for the richest companies) but also with extending the tax base (very few Colombians pay direct taxes at all, indirect ones like the IVA aside).

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el norteño says on Oct 21, 2006, 18:03:

Rural development Even with the brief amount of time I've spent in the country, it's clear the transportation infrastructure needs a major overhaul.
One of the most positive initiatives of the Eisenhower administration was the Interstate Highway System. It opened up vast areas of the country to the flow of goods and services from the industrial centers. Economic growth was exponential. An analogy is to consider the highways to be the arteries of the nation. Colombia is in dire need of a similar program.

I think many of the urban poor would rather be back home on the farm.
But, then that gets back to the main problem. These idiots running around the countryside playing Robin Hood for 40 years need to come back to civilized society. If all groups lay down the gun, the economic potential is staggering. Then, you get into a situation where labor becomes scarce and real wages rise.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 24, 2006, 17:37:

The single thing that most impressed my wife and her kids on first coming to the US was the highway system. They couldn't believe that there was a system of roads like that all over the country.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cali373 says on Oct 27, 2006, 08:28:

galecito Actually raising taxes in proportion to income worked in the United States in order to prevent another Great Depression. One of the causes of the Depression was that the united states was producing mass amounts of products and services but citizens did not have the purchase power (due to low incomes) to consume the products and services. The rich alone cannot run the US economy, they need the lower classes, but the poor does nothing for anyone because they just do not have the purchasing power to be an instrumental part of the economy.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Oct 27, 2006, 08:49:

The US highway system Is historically attributed to Eisenhower in order to create evacuation routes in the event of a nuclear attack. However it was actually a continuation of Roosevelt's New Deal projects which he does not get credit for. New Deal projects put many unemployed and poor to work and contributed as a way to get out of the great depression.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Oct 27, 2006, 08:53:

el norteño The key word here is "If all groups lay down the gun" which includes the Colombian state. Now I do not mean for police to stop doing police work (if that is what you can call it) but to protect ALL citizens not just the economic and political elite. You also cannot forget that the State has a long history of disregarding colombia's democratic institutions in order to maintain the status quo. Colombia's guerillas were powerful even during the 80's era of economic growth. Also you cannot forget about the idiots that run the Colombian government and judicial system.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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johnarizona says on Oct 27, 2006, 09:31:

nation defense highway system was created to allow for rapid mobilization of troops and equipment throughout the US...war overcomes poverty. Actually being UNITED and having excellent communication and transportation infrastructure would be best to overcome poverty.

Construction of the interstate system moved slowly. Many states did not wish to divert federal-aid funds from local needs. Others complained that the standards were too high. Some of the heavily populated states, finding that federal-aid funding was so small in comparison with need, decided to authorize construction of toll roads in the interstate corridors. Also, by July 1950, the United States was again at war, this time in Korea, and the focus of the highway program shifted from civilian to military needs.
The Federal-Aid Highway Act of 1952 authorized $25 million for the interstate system on a 50-50 matching basis. These were the first funds authorized specifically for interstate construction. However, it was a token amount, reflecting the continuing disagreements within the highway community rather than the national importance of the system.
When President Dwight D. Eisenhower took office in January 1953, the states had completed 10,327 km of system improvements at a cost of $955 million - half of which came from the federal government. According to BPR, as it was again called, only 24 percent of interstate roadway was adequate for present traffic; that is, very little of the distance had been reconstructed to meet traffic expected 20 years hence.
Long before taking office, Eisenhower recognized the importance of highways.

His first realization of the value of good highways occurred in 1919, when he participated in the U.S. Army's first transcontinental motor convoy from Washington, D.C., to San Francisco.
When Eisenhower and a friend heard about the convoy, they volunteered to go along as observers, "partly for a lark and partly to learn," as he later recalled. On the way west, the convoy experienced all the woes known to motorists and then some - an endless series of mechanical difficulties; vehicles stuck in mud or sand; trucks and other equipment crashing through wooden bridges; roads as slippery as ice or dusty or the consistency of "gumbo"; extremes of weather from desert heat to Rocky Mountain freezing; and, for the soldiers, worst of all, speeches, speeches, and more speeches in every town along the way.
On Sept. 5, 1919, after 62 days on the road, the convoy reached San Francisco, where it was greeted with medals, a parade, and more speeches.
During World War II, Gen. Eisenhower saw the advantages Germany enjoyed because of the autobahn network. He also noted the enhanced mobility of the Allies when they fought their way into Germany.
These experiences shaped Eisenhower's views on highways. "The old convoy," he said, "had started me thinking about good, two-lane highways, but Germany had made me see the wisdom of broader ribbons across the land."
In 1953, the first year of the Eisenhower administration, the president had little time for highways. He was preoccupied with bringing an end to the war in Korea and helping the country get through the economic disruption of the post-war period.
However, 1954 was a year in which a new federal-aid highway act would be needed, and from the start, during the State of the Union Address on Jan. 7, Eisenhower made clear that he was ready to turn his attention to the nation's highway problems. He considered it important to "protect the vital interest of every citizen in a safe and adequate highway system."

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