Tell Me The Difference Between Estratos

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 27, 2007, 10:58:

There are many threads here discussing the stratification of the neighbourhoods in Colombia, here's a couple:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/6777
http://www.poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/12739

You find more typing "estratos" or "strata" in the Google search this website window on the left side of this main window.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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poco says on Feb 27, 2007, 12:09:

Oh, Oh Looks like the lower estrato areas in the U.S. could experience a price increase. Those on margin will be hurt'n and need lower priced homes.

500 plus drop in the Dow, CIB down 6-1/2 percent. 180 point drop in less than a minute late in the session.

Oh, wait a rebound only down 470, wait, below 400. Whew.

Hope MO at 82.20 was a good bet because I think a lot of "X" smokers are being brought back into the fold.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Feb 27, 2007, 12:24:

Well DG I think you are generally right. This could have a lasting impact on the commodities. I hope this doesn't effect the 40% discount for heating oil that Chavez is giving to the poor in the U.S.

Over a year ago a Chinese guy I know was talking about Chinese loans. ANYONE could go to a bank and get large loans. All they needed was a job and they didn't need to be Chinese. Amazing, I remember thinking this can't continue. Took a long time. I wouldn't want to have a loan in China that I'd used to buy stock.

In China do they jump out the windows or fall on a sword ?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Feb 27, 2007, 12:52:

You must be a Physic They are new at this kind of thing.

The financial commentators were talking about this very thing a few minutes after you posted. You should be a program manager.

They GURU's look for another 2 or 3 percent drop in the Dow. The bears of course are still thinking 10 percent more.

According to Bloomberg the IGBC index in down 4.5%. Gosh, just when it was about rise to last years high levels.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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poco says on Feb 27, 2007, 13:18:

Exciting, that's for sure. This is too much fun!

Do this enough years and it does indeed become fun. Someone asked what do folks do in Colombia to keep from becoming bored. Something like that. What to do when the new wears off.

It is hard to stay away from the financial system.

I've wondered what a Colombian of modest means (Estrato 2) can invest in to get some financial "leg up" and allows a measure of inflation / currency devaluation protection. Seems housing is about all there is.

I don't think I'd want my money in a Colombian bank.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Man Tequila says on Feb 27, 2007, 13:29:

Desi, thanks for the links. I am hardly obsessed with strata, just seeking a bit of info. In general, I've found (presumably) LOWER strata Colombians I've talked to, to be a little more friendly and helpful. I would not conclude that strata 5 people are always decent or that a strata 6 area is always safe. Most of the nicer Canadians I know are middle class too. I know a lot of wealthy people here, and quite a few are insufferable.

Tinto, my experience is that the dots are below the right armpit. You can also count the number of times the person says "vaina" and use that.

I don't personally judge people by their wealth or status. I grew up middle class and most of my friends are middle class. I know and am friends with the people at my hospital that clean the floors, shovel the snow and work in the cafeteria. It was a wake-up call for me to travel to bigger cities and other countries and see the misplaced importance some people put on wealth and status.

If I knew someone had grown up in a "strato 3" area in Canada, I would not know their current education level, salary, job, beer, sports team preference -- apart from a statistical likelihood they would be slightly less likely to go to university than someone from "strato 5". The number of "exceptions" is not thousands but millions. Canada is a fairly equal society. I think it is good most people have access to education and health care. This increases taxes, which is fine, but bad since so much of this money is poorly spent on other things. Few real ghettos or "strato one" areas exist in Canada, apart from on native reserves and a few cities, and this really is a tragedy and national shame that such poverty still exists here.

I wanted a sense of how costs differed between strata (and housing seems to double per increase). Given an increase in utility costs, it is easy to see people resisting an increase in strata even if this might increase housing prices. It probably would not if strata is was an administration convenience, but most Colombians do use it as a shorthand for other things.

In poorer neighbourhoods in Canada:
* fewer white people
* very few banks
* more litter, places less well kept
* closer to highways, airports, industrial areas
* more strip malls, etc.

Nicer neighbourhoods in Canada are often directly beside less nice neighbourhoods. You couldn't always look at a picture and jump to the right conclusion. Most Colombians I know could look at a picture and say "this looks like strata 3". They aren't thinking about utility costs, they just know it when they see it. I've made a point of travelling all over the cities I've visited in Colombia, except areas the taxista failed to recommend, and have seen differences in living standard. But was it 2nd or 3rd level -- I don't know. The map of Bogota estratos does confirm my suspicions of a bullseye pattern.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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cali373 says on Feb 27, 2007, 13:29:

The bigger the number, the bigger the assholes you'll find. Except for my fellow PBHers.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Gator says on Feb 27, 2007, 13:44:

Damn!!! I'm, glad grand pappy help on to those Confederate dollars.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Gator says on Feb 27, 2007, 14:03:

Here Is The Estrato

map of Bogotá http://www.dapd.gov.co/www/resources/dec200-04.jpg

you will see most of the 5/6 are north east of the airport, lots of 3/4 up in the area of Kennedy Punte Aranda,Fontibon, Engativa, lost of lower estrato south and north of the airport but higher estratos are mixed in. Lots of the 1's are industrial areas. Tied in a large part to taxes, utilities and even what the kids will pay at public universities. Same typed of mindset that separates people in the poores section of NYC and those that live on Central Park.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 27, 2007, 14:17:

I'm actually pretty good at "guessing" the stratum of a neighbourhood by just looking at a few photos taken there, or just driving through. (That'd be just Cali; the only city in Colombia that I know well). I spent some time last winter in a strata5 heighbourhood and also in strata3 and got a pretty good glimpse the costs in those two neighbourhoods when compared with each other.

It's not just the utility bill that is smaller in a lower number strata barrio; everything else is cheaper too. The health services, the private schools, the food bought at local supermarkets (no Carrefour for str.3, their supermarket is called "Las Galerias" and if you spend say, 120 000 pesos buying food at Carrefour or Exito, you spend perhaps 70 000 pesos for the same items at Las Galerias. Getting hair, nails done is half the price compared with the beauty parlor in poshier neighbourhoods, internet cafes charge less per hour etc.

So, why would I NOT want to live in Str.2 or 3 neighbourhood? It would cost me a lot less, I know. The main reason would be the security. I feel much safer in higher number strata areas. The street lighting is better, the streets and sidewalks in better repair, it's spacier and neater. There's less garbage on the streets and sidewalks, less gamines, less stray dogs. It looks more like....home.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang van Goethe

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Azul says on Feb 27, 2007, 14:37:

Anything above estrato 4 does not feel like the Colombia that I know and love. I currently have a estrato 3 apartment. The higher estratos are a bit to 'stuffy' for me, I much more enjoy the company of my neighbors in lower estratos.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

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PaisaAmericano says on Feb 27, 2007, 18:27:

I agree with Azul I currently live in Estrato 6 in Laureles Medellin and although it very very nice and secure, the neighborly love is not there. I remember as a kid going to my grandmas house in Estrato 2 and everybody knew eachother, neighbors helped each other, soccer games in the streets, empanadas all over, asados, music, energy, life. The true Colombia

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analyzethis1 says on Feb 27, 2007, 19:32:

Colombians and Stratas I live in Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada. I'm originally from the Philippines. Even though I've never been to Colombia but will be visiting Bogota in April for a month, hence the reason why I've been reading these forums, I feel like I've already been there. With regards to all the comments made about stratas and status quos, it seems like life in Bogota, more specifically, is no different from my own here in Vancouver. As much as I'm waiting in anticipation for my trip, I already know that I will fall in love with the city and the people, regardless of how the city is divided into stratas. However, I hope that when meeting Colombians, I will learn about their heritage and their true culture as opposed to where they live and whether they drive a car or not. I will let you all know how my trip goes. Wish me luck!

There are two kinds of gratitude: The sudden kind we feel for what we receive, and the larger kind we feel for what we give. E.A. Robinson

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billyb says on Feb 27, 2007, 20:24:

I love it how people glamorize poverty.. "stato 2, the real colombia, yada, yada, yada" when we all well know that if given the means to move to a strato 5/6 (or the mythical 7 DG mentions)every single colombian living in a strato 1/2 neighborhood would jump at the chance and never look back.

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Azul says on Feb 27, 2007, 20:37:

It's not glamorizing poverty ...it's a statement about the people who live in the lower estratos. Sure, a estrato 5 or 6 is much nicer, but you give up a lot good things too. PaisaAmericano described it perfectly. There are many hardships and disadvantages of living in these neighborhoods, but with the bad comes the good...and to many of us it is one of the beautiful things about Colombia.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

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billyb says on Feb 27, 2007, 20:53:

Yes, but the real Colombia... lies in your neighborhood, your friends, your relatives, your little plot of land, your hangouts and those are not any less real if they they don't have the, suddenly chic, badge of poverty on them.

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Azul says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:07:

Being poor isn't the point The point is that there are some wonderful things in those poor neighborhoods that you just don't get in the upper estrata neighborhoods.

las cosas caen por su propio peso

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billyb says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:12:

Putting that way, I agree .... .....

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miamimike says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:19:

I see that here in Miami,,, In my Condo bldg we have Residents from 14 different countries and it makes life interesting. Neighbors know neighbors and actually talk to each other, black to white, black to yellow, Brown to white/black ect,,,Now go up to Collins avenue(near the Ocean and the $300,000+ Condos(that is for a one BR btw) where a Buddy lives north of Sunny Isles(200 ave)and in his Bldg it reminds me of a Funeral Home--the Carpets,lighting, the SILENCE was overbearing. No neighbors talking, no Kids in the Hallway, No passing a Cold Beer or Slice of Pizza to the neighbor over your Balcony, No Loud Noche Buena type fiestas on Dec 24 ect. I like watching my Colombiana/Cubana neighbors heading to the Laundry Room/gaarbage chute door in their Shorty Pajamas and Nightgowns, Would this be possible in a Strata 6 type Condo? I don't think so,,,LOL Guess the Lifestyle is good for some(and nothing wrong with it either) but not my cup of tea either,,,I have to agree with Azul and PaisoAmericano,,,and it has nothing to do with means, at least not for me,,,

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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billyb says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:27:

Mike, your building sounds way more fun... than your friend's, my point is that it doesn't make his experience any less american. Everybody's reality is what they experience.

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miamimike says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:34:

Yea Billy B-He is from one of those Northern European countries closee to Austria where they speak the same langauge LOL--strange thing is his wife is a Colombiana and it must drive her nuts as all her friends live down in the real world of strata 2 in Hialeah or Little Havana-3 where signs of life are evident and the Barrio has a pulse above 60 beats per minute,,,LOL. Like I say, great for some but not for everybody,,,Weston/Brickell(ave) are the same way--one big Funeral home,,,

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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billyb says on Feb 27, 2007, 21:43:

Ok, wrong example .LOL... would Miami be considered a special case though, considering all the retirees in a lot of the upscale condos? Also a lot of absentee condo owners?

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miamimike says on Feb 27, 2007, 22:05:

Not as Many Retirees as there used to be,,, Actually in the condo where my friend lives, its is mostly people 55 yr and younger. A lot of younger residents mortaged to the Hilt one step away from Bankruptcy in many of those Condos on the Beach on or near Miami. Demographers say once this Generation of Condo owners(70+)die off, Florida will never see mass migrations of Middle Income Sno-Bird Type Retirees it has seen since the 60s-70s. They say in the future, the Snow Birds will hang their hat no farther south then say NC, SC, Tenn to mid -Georgia. Florida is simply becoming too expensive for them--high homeowner's and Car insurance, Property taxes, Massive Traffic Congestion, not to mention the stress over impending Hurricanes, ect. The Super Wealthy of West Palm Beach of course will continue to winter here as they have since Joe Kennedy's Days. The Trailer(RV) Parks where many of the "Tin-Can Tourists"( affectionaely referred to as such because they pulled Silver Airstreams trailers that looked like a Tin Can) used to park their Rigs for the winter have been sold off for Condo Developement, same for the Mobile Home Parks, more disappearing daily. When I bought my Condo in 1995 here in North Miami, 70% the owners were Snowbirds from NYC, Now they have all died off but one or two and younger folks have moved in. Then we had 4 RV Parks where many Northerners/Canucks used to park for the winter-now only one is left! It is the Time, another Generation passing, the WW2/Korean War Era folks.

Too Bad a Guy didn't have the Foresight to buy a lot&trailer in this WPB area park known as Briny Breezes. They sold for $50K-$75K not many years back but now--1 Million per each 14-70 single wide trailer lot!

http://money.cnn.com/magazines/fortune/fortune_archive/2007/02/05/8399151/index.htm?postversion=2007020209

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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