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Swedish Comments On Saab Bofors Weapon Deal

FARC shoots with Swedish guns. While waiting for the Big Bang all the players are blaming somebody else.

(From an article written by Magnus Linton in today's Dagens Nyheter, Swedens largest daily. My own translation from Swedish)

It's a logical result from a country's choice to participate in global production of weapons of war that Swedish guns are killing children and civilians in many parts of the world but that Sweden may be the catalyst for a large-scale war in the most unruly corner of Latin America may turn out to be a historical event.

To find out that Bofors anti-tank guns AT4 sent to Venezuela have landed in the hands of terrorist-classified FARC-guerrilla, known for drugdealing and kidnappings raises a lot of questions, but above all one:

What does Sweden and Bofors actually KNOW about the nature of the Venezuelan and Colombian states?

Not a great deal, it seems.

The story is much bigger than a weapons purchase gone awry and the end may be a catastroph.

Venezuela, governed by a war-crazy leftist populist is rapidly expanding country of transition for the Colombian cocaine and Colombia, governed by a war-crazy rightist populist, has been blaming president Chavez for giving the guerrilla military support, an accusation that Chavez has always been admant to deny. Colombia's main argument has been the documents found, but suspected to be forgeries, about anti-tank weapon deal between the guerrilla and Venezuelan generals.

According to weekly Semana the bit of the puzzle that has been missing may have Sweden's name on it. Sweden, Bofors, AT4. Saab Bofors Dynamics have lamented the incident. Which may be of little consolation to the people living inthe frontier of the two countries and have to live with the consequencies of the criminal weapon and drug maffias' activities every day.

Colombia is a country where the drug maffia has large portions of the congress on their payroll and where the government blames their neighbours as soon as it's loss of controll or crimes against human rights are discovered. Venezuela is a country with an escalating corruption whose military and border patrols are now penetrtated deeply by their neighbour's maffia and guerrilla. The heads of states hate each other each from his corner of left/right polarized political stances of the continent threatening each other with impending war. Yet, the most important frontier between the countries is a no man's land: neither government has control over it; it's controlled by illegal groups.

This bloody swamp is now floating with Swedish guns and the political impact of the discovery is much bigger than the strategic one: the cup may runneth over with these last drops. The world is waiting for Chavez' reply...he's probably going to blame it all on Colombia. Sweden blames Venezuela. Of course.
And the fireworks may soon go off.”
http://www.dn.se/kultur-noje/kronikor/magnus-linton-farc-skjuter-svens...

By Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) on Jul 29, 2009, 13:56 in Politics & the war.

ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 14:00:

"This bloody swamp"? WTF? This author sounds like a real gem.

I'm so hip, I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 29, 2009, 14:05:

Hey I didn't write that. (I know my translation is far from perfect.)

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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ColombianoGringo (Moderator) (Trustee board) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 14:26:

I know you didn't write it. I meant ol' Magnus.

I'm so hip, I have difficulty seeing over my pelvis.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 29, 2009, 14:39:

It was meant as a metaphor. Anyway, the article illustrates pretty accurately what people in my neck of woods think about Chavez and Uribe. And of Colomba and Venezuela.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 15:01:

Perhabs, that´s the start for help for Colombia. What are the Europeans really doing to help? How much money a year? How much money do they spend on drugs?
Why the Europeans were not financing for example the guerillas or parras who laid down their weapons? Pay them a salary and they will never take a weapon. But if he cannot get an alternative he will look later for weapons.

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ojbarberena says on Jul 29, 2009, 16:01:

Someone tell George Bush that Chaves has weapons of mass destruction

not all who wonder are lost

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Atrevido (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 16:21:

Latest is Saab has asked Colombia for the serial numbers.

https://sites.google.com/site/colombianaturesite/nature-images

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quantum says on Jul 29, 2009, 17:11:

Anybody in the arms business, whether in the U.S. (#1) or Russia or Israel (#3last time I looked) or France or England or Switzerland or even peaceful suposedly enlightened Sweden, wants and needs to sell their products, and as many of their products as they can to whomever is willing to buy. This is the nature of business. So dont be too surprised or indignant when these arms end up in the hands of insurgents or guerillas anywhere including Colombia.......at the end of the day, there is always a black market.......can it be controlled? I doubt it............

quantum

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Atrevido (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 17:23:

It´s just that the "black market" happens to be particulary enormous in Chavez country.

https://sites.google.com/site/colombianaturesite/nature-images

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Bluesdude says on Jul 29, 2009, 18:19:

Aye bain a Swede! Not our guns! Must be the Russians! Durndy burndy neendy donde du! Borp! Borp! Borp!

A guru once said, "the mind is like a drunken monkey." If that's true, then my mind is an orangutan on a binge

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 20:35:

Is there some sort of international law that forces ALL arms manufacturers to record and make available what country sales go to? That would be interesting to map out. Obviously after the initial sale things can fall apart, but imho it would show how much goes where and who is selling to who.

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billyb says on Jul 29, 2009, 21:18:

Fat chance, no arms producing country has any interest in having that . I would bet a good percentage of arms sales are through a straw man.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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viajero123 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 21:36:

"The heads of states hate each other each from his corner of left/right polarized political stances of the continent threatening each other with impending war."
I don't think Uribe has ever threatened Venezuela with war.

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viajero123 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 21:38:

"Colombia is a country where...the government blames their neighbours as soon as it's loss of controll or crimes against human rights are discovered."

I think Colombia uses more internal affairs to hide these things that the neighbour relationships. To me, Colombia is more the topic of distraction that the Ecuadorian and Venezuelan government use to dristract people's attention. Colombians used to be well accepted in Ecuador before Correa, now we are pariahs over there.

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 29, 2009, 21:41:

I think it would be a good idea. I'll bet governments spend nearly as much as the manufacturers make combating insurgent groups whose arms must come from somewhere.. at least whoever buys them would have to be more accountable for them. Lifecycle accounting - we can assume anything that dissapears has landed in unstable hands.

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billyb says on Jul 29, 2009, 21:49:

But most, if not all, arms producing countries have an interest in arms "disappearing" sometimes, it gives them plausible deniability when they want to support politically untenable "allies", or sometimes more precisely described as enemies of our enemies.

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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vinod says on Jul 29, 2009, 22:38:

makopp,....Eurpoeans pay the paras to stop fighting?

Why should European taxpayers foot the bill to solve Colombia's problems?

Why should any foreign taxpayer foot such a bill?

The best things foreigners could do is stop sniffing all that nose candy, but we know that isn't going to happen.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 00:22:

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/eco_com_to_for_aid-economy-commitmen...

There are plenty of European countries in the top twenty of the statistics of commitment to foreign aid. So, the will is there, the euro also, it's just not all directed to Colombia and it's taxpayers money. So, you could say most EVERYBODY is contributing to foreign aid in Europe and in a lot of countries, Sweden included, drugs are not a major problem.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 02:55:

Desi
do you have numbers? How much spend all the europeans in cocain and how much money recive Colombia in aid from Eiurope.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 03:35:

Sweden gives 1% of the national income to foreign aid. This year it will be a total of 33 million Swedish crowns. It's not a lot, but yet it's money that EVERY taxpayer contribute.

"Sverige når under 2009 upp till sitt biståndsmål på en procent av den beräknade bruttonationalinkomsten, BNI. Det svenska biståndet för 2009 är 33 863 miljoner kronor."

2008
Publicerad: den 11 juni 2009
Uppdaterad: den 23 juni 2009
Varje år redogör Sida för regeringen hur vi har använt och fördelat anslaget. Vi redovisar biståndet till varje land fördelat på ämnesområden.
Kostnader SEK
Hälsa 424 000
Utbildning 497 000
Forskning 0
Mänskliga rättigheter och demokratisk samhällsstyrning 63 715 000
Konflikthantering, fred och säkerhet 82 012 000
Humanitärt bistånd 25 254 000
Infrastruktur 0
Handel, näringsliv och finansiella system 93 000
Naturresurser och miljö 1 379 000
Budgetstöd för fattigdomsbekämpning 0
Övrigt 479 000
Totalt 173 852 000

Källor: Sidas årsredovisning 2008.

Colombia and Bolivia are the only two South American countries that are recipient of the Swedish foreign aid. The total amount last year to Colombia is at the the bottom line. The areas that were included were health, education, human rigts and democracy, conflict management peace work and security, humanitarian aid, commerce industry and banking, natural resources and environment

About how much money private Swedish citizens use for recreational drugs there will never be any numbers, because these drugs are illegal. And it's not the Swedish government that does lines and smokes pot so the comparison is not possible.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 04:11:

Desi
I have a diferent point of view of this. When the swedish or european governments are not able to control the use of ilegal drugs of their citiciens, so they should pay for cleaning up for the damage they do of not controling the use. So lets say if whole europe is spending for example 10.000.000.000 in drugs, Why shouldn´t they be able to pay only 20% to the producing countries to change the producton. And everybody will be happy.
If you personally makes a damage to another person, so you have to pay for repairing the damage, or not? Why should this not work for coutries?

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 06:36:

I fail to see the logic behind it. Now, if the drug maffias were handing over their profits to the Swedish government to help develop Colombia in a controlled, rational, fair and unbiased way, that'd be a different story. Does the US government send 20% of the brutto National Income to Colombia to help Colombians to achieve peace and fight poverty? Or any other government in the world? Only money earmarked to beef up the military apparatus to defend the status quo, the elites and keep the insurgents at bay.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 07:40:

Desi
My logic is very simple: Who makes the damage to Colombia? The drug users. Who pays now for the damage, Colombia and the US (with big military aid). The Europeans use also lots of drugs and they are doing nearly nothing some 50 or 70 Mio a year. So they have to pay for the damage. Colombia is paying a high price in lives and violence generated for the drugmoney. So they should pay much more than they do.

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mrgizmo says on Jul 30, 2009, 08:07:

Well, believe it or not, Sweden keeps track of all the serial numbers of weapons they sell. What's more, is that Sweden had a contract with Venezuela prohibiting them (venezuela) from selling these weapons to a third party. That's why it's very suspicious that later these weapons ended up in the hands of the FARC. Chavez has a lot of explaining to do.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 08:18:

Makopp, I see that as faulty logic. The reasons are within, not outside.If Colombia didn't produce and sell drugs, people would buy them somewhere else. I agree that the drug economy has damaged the country, the economy, the institutions, the government, it has ripped into the very fabric of the society causing loss of scruples, the end justifies the methods-philosophy, pragmatism that borders to immorality and moral decay. But it's not something caused and fabricated outside of Colombia, but within that society and institutions who started accepting crime and corruption as a legitimate way of life.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 08:22:

Yes, and to obtain a permission to sell weapons abroad the seller has to get the government's security clearance to make sure that these weapons are not to be used by terrorists, a measure that was signed by the Venezuelan government. The serial numbers are also recorded and archived in Sweden.

Hugo Chavez has some explaining to do.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 09:51:

Desi
so I can say the same reverse. Why they don´t stop buying? Why the countries cannot control the poblation to buy this drugs? And if nobody is buying it, then nobody will produce it. It´s a problem from both sides not just from Colombia.

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mrgizmo says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:22:

Why they don´t stop buying? Why the countries cannot control the poblation to buy this drugs?

Visualize a thousand flies over a piece of crap. It's easier to get rid of the crap than to chase all the flies.

Behind every successful man, there's a nagging woman

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:31:

Desi,

So, if I understand correctly, Sweden, despite her famous neutrality, is still is a major arm-supplier on the international scene?

Or did I miss something?

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:32:

Would you want to live in a country where the police was knocking at your door all the time to see what you are stuffing into your pipe? Stop people from using alcohol, tobacco, coffee, recreational drugs? Even if they were bad for you? It has not been very successful in the past.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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billyb says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:34:

You can't stop the demand, you can't stop the supply, so legalize it and stop the profit, problem solved. Next?

"All I want to know is where I'm going to die, so I never go there" Unkown (at least to me) wise man.

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FreakyG says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:38:

Desi & Makopp5,
There is enough blame to go around as far as the issues of drugs and their distribution. If people in the states would stop using, there would be no market for this stuff. This is highly unlikely due to the simple nature of addicts and how they are treated by law in the US. If Colombia stopped production, the market would diminish due to the product not being available. It really isnt a chicken or the egg argument mainly due to all parties involved are GUILTY of the crime. That is from the producer, smuggler, dealer, and finally the user -all of them are guilty in this process. The least guilty party in this scene is the user. The war on drugs is a joke mainly due to how my government prosecutes addicts and inprisons them -no rehabilitation whatsoever. This "war" on drugs hurts both the US and Colombia and plan colombia would never had been implemented if the US handled our own business (treatment of addicts). As far as the producers are concerned -I hope these people DONT sleep well at night and end up getting 86ed. They are knowingly manufacturing a product that they know fukks up other people's lives -and are getting rich as hell in the process.

I am sure I am over simplifying things here, but usually call it like I see it.

As far as Swiss manufactured guns -I have owned some and shot a lot of them and the craftsmanship is what makes them some of best in the world. Always liked the Belgan FNs, Swiss sigs, and German H&Ks.

Thank You Eversomuch, and then some

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 12:38:

*Loup, how major, I don't know. But yes, this is a country with ample supply of iron ore and long tradition is making steel, first swords and then guns and war planes.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Rikito says on Jul 30, 2009, 15:03:

Who is the world’s largest manufacturer and seller of weapons in the world...any guesses? I'll give you a clue...the initials are USA. Double its nearest competitor.

...and so it goes!

...and so it goes

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 15:22:

The French are quite good at weapon sales too. They have a rule:

In any conflict, especially in Africa, try and sell to both conflicting parties, in order not to build jealousy or resentment.

P.S.: The Brits never forgave the frogs for selling Exocet missiles to Argentina during the Falklands war:

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 15:26:

Desi: SAAB manufactures war machinery in addition to cars?

Next, you'll be telling me that Nokia (yeah, I know it's not Swedish, but it still remains Scandinavian) manufactures nuclear submarines!

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 15:35:

SAAB started manufacturing airplanes before they started building cars. Now they are making both. Another Swedish company, Bofors, that has been manufacturing war material merged with Saab and is now called Saab Bofors Dynamics.
Oh, Nokia....they started manufacturig wellies:))

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2009, 15:38:

Image and video hosting by TinyPic

Jas Gripen fighter planes are made bt SAAB

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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vinod says on Jul 30, 2009, 16:32:

Darloup, the Argentines already had the Exocet before the Falklands war started.

After the Argentines used the Exocet the French did two things:

(1) They cut off further supplies to the Argentines.
(2) They gave the Brits the necessary information to take electronic counter measures against the Exocet.

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Darloup (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 16:43:

vinod:

The Argentines already had the Exocet because the French sold them. But it is a proven fact that the French sold the Argentines more Exocet during the Falklands war (that ended up as quite a scandal in France).

"After the Argentines used the Exocet the French did two things:
(1) They cut off further supplies to the Argentines.
(2) They gave the Brits the necessary information to take electronic counter measures against the Exocet"

Very true. But why? Because the French were sh*tless about the Iron Lady and more importantly, because the whole world then realized what eveyrone already knew: The French are opportunists when weapons sales are concerned.

The Brits may hate the French (there was a war lasting over 100 years between the two countries), but the French never forgave the English for burning Joan of Arc.

.

Better to have tried and failed than having regrets all your life about what you MIGHT have missed

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adrimm (Moderator) (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2009, 17:46:

Quote:
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, and to obtain a permission to sell weapons abroad the seller has to get the government's security clearance to make sure that these weapons are not to be used by terrorists, a measure that was signed by the Venezuelan government. The serial numbers are also recorded and archived in Sweden.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

^^Excellent^^ All arms manufacturers should be held to this. Then we might see some accountability. If someone is going to make money off of a tool for killing, this should be a minimum requirement.

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romy says on Jul 31, 2009, 01:00:

they are accountable to their stockholders...

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cali373 says on Aug 3, 2009, 14:10:

makopp5

"Colombia is paying a high price in lives and violence generated for the drugmoney"

While this may be true, it is also true that Colombia pays a high price because of the prohibition of these drugs. the reason why their is a criminal element with drugs, is the fact that their are illegal. Make them legal and you eliminate the criminal element pretty fast. Now the first reaction for most is to think that would be ridiculous, but think about it and you will see that it is true. What dont you see the same kind of violence in liquor and tabacco trafficking? because they are legal and equally addicting and detrimental to human health.

I agree that the drugs may still create addicts, but guess what, they are creating addicts anywaymt he difference is that you will not have the criminal element. I know legalization will never happen, but not because governments are worried about the health risks, but because there is alot of money being made on this so-called war on drugs.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Dolfi says on Aug 4, 2009, 02:17:

And as this money in the end enters legal economy, big business and governments are maybe not too interested in stopping it.

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