Sweden May Sell Spy Radar to Colombia

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 14, 2008, 21:08:

bump

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Apr 14, 2008, 21:16:

I'm surprised they would risk antagonizing their FARC supporters just to make a few bucks from the Colombian gov.

Monpirri says on Apr 14, 2008, 21:16:

I hope it comes with 100 years warranty :>)

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 14, 2008, 21:31:

I'm getting used to your underhanded comments, Billy.
Yes, most European countries and governments object Colombia's blatant human rights violations WITHOUT being guerrilla supporters. Is it hard to understand?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Apr 14, 2008, 21:38:

jaja, Euros should look in the mirror before judging Colombia. I mean, it hasn't even been a generation since your latest state sponsored genocide.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 14, 2008, 22:08:

perhaps we have already done that and have taken a step further away from barbarie

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Rubito says on Apr 14, 2008, 22:29:

More like a brief respite before a return to it.

I'm glad Colombia has some state of the art radar though. they obviously need it with asshole neighbors like they have.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Man Tequila says on Apr 14, 2008, 23:10:

I heard Sweden was basically selling the Colombian governent a bigger Lavasoft thing that just detects FARC spyware?

pues se me antoja que sus cantares son de una tierra desconocida, y yo le dije si a usted le inspira, saber la tierra de donde soy... con mucho gusto y a mucho honor...

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 05:58:

"perhaps we have already done that and have taken a step further away from barbarie;

I doubt it, remove NATO and US power from the equation and you will be at each other's throats in a New York minute.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 09:44:

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:16:

Why do you choose to classify it as a spy radar?

According to your video, it is an Airborne Early Warning and Control System, which is more geared towards detecting air and seaborne threats. Does Colombia not have a right to the same types of aircraft radar systems used by many countries? After all, Brazil and Mexico use the same system.

It is not a "spy" surveillance system. It does not take spy photos nor is it even meant to detect ground facilities or troops. Why use a potentially more controversial term such as "spy radar"? It seems like an attempt to inject a needlessly negative connotation into the topic.

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:30:

"Why do you choose to classify it as a spy radar? "

Just an anti-colombian bias seeping through?

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:32:

I'm not classifying anything; I had just read the article in the leading Swedish daily and that's what they called it; I just translated the word. I have no idea about the righ terminology in English and that's the reason why I posted the explanatory video clip.

After watching the video I think that it looks like something designed for defense which is ok with me. Sweden manufactures plenty of war materiel but they have had a policy of screening their clients as not to cause too much domestic uneasiness; lots of people here are not especially proud of that line of industry thriving in Sweden.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:35:

"Just an anti-colombian bias seeping through?" (billy, billy, billy....you should know better)

I'm passionately pro-Colombian.
Just a little anti-Uribe, that's all.
How hard is that to understand?

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:41:

"I just translated the word."

Fair enough.

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:42:

Uribe is the democratically elected representative of Colombia and is overwhelmingly popular with his countrymen. Mmany Colombians, that might not be as enlightened as me jeje, might take offense at foreigners insulting our government and insinuating unproven links to paramilitaries by our president, while giving a pass to those groups that are truely commiting "BLATANT" human rights violations.

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:46:

"Uribe is the democratically elected representative of Colombia and is overwhelmingly popular with his countrymen.'

This is also true of Chavez. I am not anti-Uribe, but being a democratically elected president shouldn't make one immune to criticism or suspicion. Look at the democratically elected clown in DC.

As far as the para links, I am Colombian and the appearance of those ties concerns the hell out of me. Most of the politicians that have been "salpicados" by the para scandal have been from Uribe's party and many have been close political allies of his for a long time. Now guilt by association is no way to prove things, but this sure is a disturbing trend and should not be brushed under the carpet. I am not suggesting that Uribe is guilty, but the matter certainly deserves an impartial, independent investigation.

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:57:

"appearance "

I agree anything concrete should be investigated and all those senators and c-men in jail show that it is being done. I still have not heard of any proof though against Uribe. Meantime his enemies in Colombia and abroad are just thowing any accusatiom up there, whether there is any basis in truth or not, to see what sticks. And while I agree he should not be immune from criticism, it still pisses colombians (or anybody else for that matter) when foreigners accuse their president of all sorts of unfounded crimes and at the same time selling t-shirts to support the FARC.

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 10:59:

"at the same time selling t-shirts to support the FARC."

That is the particularly bad part. Those people should be prosecuted for aiding a recognized terrorist organization.

Monpirri says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:08:

Desi, would you post said word here maybe there is someone here who would be able to translated it accurately!
"Spy" radar it does sound a bit misleading in light of the ongoing polemic situation in the region.

MAC

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:11:

They were prosecuted for that, but the danish judges, in all their wisdom, decided that the FARC was not engaging in terrorism. For the life of me, I don't can't undertand what part of lobbing a gas cylinder into a church and killing 119 innocent men, women and children seeking refuge, is not considerd terrorism.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:12:

"spion radar"

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

poco says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:14:

This might be part of Swedens thrust into global affairs.
===================
Swedish article.
"We can't tackle global crime by sitting in Sweden. We need to go to the roots of this evil," (right,,, like Venzeula) said Thord Modin, head of the Swedish National Criminal Investigation Department's intelligence arm.

Putting a liaison officer in Colombia is not being considered "because of the security situation in the country, but also because of a lack of fast, efficient flight connections and other infrastructure," said Modin.

Jan. 8, 2008,, Swedish News,, in English: http://www.thelocal.se/9715/20080120/
=================
Heck,, It seems Sweden has NO PROBLEM with establishing offices in Venzeuala but,, it looks like the press say Colombia is NOT SAFE.

Humm,, why does this not surprise me??

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:19:

Billy, you fishing in murky waters. Sweden has nothing to do with a bunch of Danish teenagers selling t-shirts. Sweden does not, officially or unofficially, support t FARC, ELN, Paramiltaries, Al Qaida, the Tigers of Sri Lanka, the Shining Path or ANY terrorist organization whatsoever. That there may be INDIVIDUALS here that may consider a Palestine or a Tamil guerrilla a fredom fighter instead of terrorist is no more outrageous than admitting lfreedom of thought or expressing your political views without censorship in ANY country so cut out that sanctimonious BS now. I'm getting irritated by your bias.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:25:

A palestinian who fights the IDF might be considered a freedom fighter, but one that blows up a bus full of school children? Well, you would have to be a seriously disturbed person to consider him anything but a terrorist. Same goes for the FARC. It's funny how the euros can get bogged down in their nebulous morality.

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:28:

"so cut out that sanctimonious BS now"

Jajaja, are you confusing me with one of your school charges? Should we address you as Miss Desi from now on ;)

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:33:

I am far from a FARC supporter, but by the logic of your Palestinian example, a FARC member who only fought government forces and didn't directly take part in terrorist acts could be considered a freedom fighter. I think that a member of a terrorist group like Hamas, or FARC for that matter, should be considered a terrorist regardless of what particular role they play in the organization. The fact that they are knowingly supporting the organization with their actions implicates them as well.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:35:

That was just an example, off the top of my head.

Colombia harbours one of the most ruthles, pitiless, cruel terrorist organizationof the world, the paramilitaries with their sweet deal with the government that went sour because the US. Congress turned down the worthless FTA becauseof human right violations and impunity. The guerrilla is a terrorist insurgency, the Paracos are mercenary terrorists; to say which one is worse is going to be difficult.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:37:

You might be right, I was giving her the benefit of the doubt on that one, as Israel might be considered an occupying force and taking up arms against its defense forces might be seen as legitimate. But not blowing up buses full of school children. And as we know PALESTINIAN is an ethnic group and not a terrorist organization there are an uncountable number of palestinian armed groups with widely divergent views and tactics, the FARC on the other hand is a monolithic organization.

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 15, 2008, 11:48:

"The guerrilla is a terrorist insurgency, the Paracos are mercenary terrorists; to say which one is worse is going to be difficult."

Sad, but true.

poco says on Apr 15, 2008, 12:04:

Quote: Sweden does not, officially or unofficially, support t FARC, ELN,

Taking Colombias money with one hand, and with the other, advocating the establishment of Swedish police in Venezuela shows support for Chavez. Not exactly a neutral position. Worse,, Swedens news seems to perpetuate that Colombia is NOT safe.

Swedens actions give credence to Chavez and his postion the FARC / ELN are soldiers, among many others.

I'd say this more or less indicates how Sweden thinks about Colombia.
======
Placing a Nordic police liaison officer in Venezuela or Costa Rica would be one way of getting to grips with the problem, police say.
====

More news.

========
A man arrested last year carrying a loaf of bread stuffed with ecstasy has been formally charged with drug smuggling by a court in Helsingborg, southern Sweden.
http://www.thelocal.se/9832/20080131/
=========

You haven't been preparing bunuelos using contaminated ingrediants have you?

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 15, 2008, 13:08:

LOL Poco, my buñuelos just LOOK like they might have something extra stuffed in them...I won't post the picture again because monpirri is still having nightmeres of being attacked by extraterrestials...

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Apr 15, 2008, 18:13:

""The guerrilla is a terrorist insurgency, the Paracos are mercenary terrorists; to say which one is worse is going to be difficult."

Sad, but true.

That's like wondering which is worse cancer, or the plague. Neither should be supported.

Monpirri says on Apr 15, 2008, 18:17:

I agree with Billyb!

MAC

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Robert Jorge says on Apr 16, 2008, 01:04:

Sweden may not support terrorists, but they unleashed Ace of Base on the world in the 90s. That was horrible.

Rubito says on Apr 16, 2008, 01:05:

All that she wants is another baby? :)

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 16, 2008, 06:48:

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

Robert Jorge says on Apr 16, 2008, 09:07:

Here is another terroristic act, unleashed on the world by Sweden in the '70s.

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 16, 2008, 09:17:

The little town of Almhult in Sweden provided me some really great memories of some of its finest residents. Consequently, Sweden pretty much gets a lifetime pass from me :-o

Desideria (Moderator) says on Apr 16, 2008, 09:43:

My favorite Swedish Terrorists

CG, I haven't talked to many people who after spending some time up here spoke badly about the Swedes. Especially if they were guys talking about Swedish ladies.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Apr 16, 2008, 09:50:

In general, I found Scandinavian people to be the friendliest in Europe. I've never been to Finland, but I have met lots of really nice people in Denmark, Norway and Sweden. Still, Finland gets a pass for giving us Mika and Kimi.

When bumming around Europe, we made lots of Scandinavian friends with whom we randomly traveled around. Anyone who hasn't experienced the freedom of a Eurail pass has missed out on one of the great travel experiences in life.

But yes, the ambassadors from Almhult were lovely young ladies.

romy says on Apr 29, 2008, 00:11:

http://www.alterinfos.org/spip.php?article2254
País reconocidamente neutral toma partido en el conflicto
SUECIA-COLOMBIA - Gobierno sueco autoriza venta de armas a Colombia
Ricardo Daher
Lunes 28 de abril de 2008, puesto en línea por Ricardo Daher

Pese a que la ley sueca impide la venta de armas a países en conflictos armados, donde se violen los derechos humanos, o se encuentren en guerra con otras naciones, una comisión especial que regula el cumplimiento de esa norma, autorizó a la empresa Saab a vender equipos bélicos a Colombia.

La decisión se anunció coincidiendo con la visita del vicepresidente colombiano, Francisco Santos Calderón.

En Suecia funciona un grupo parlamentario que se reúne periódicamente con los responsables de conceder los permisos de exportación de armas. Los parlamentarios deben velar para que se respeten los lineamientos de control en la materia.

Por ejemplo, no se debe autorizar la venta a países en guerra o si se considera que existen graves violaciones a los derechos humanos. Además, según los lineamientos de la política exterior, también se debe tener en cuanto la vigencia y promoción de la democracia en los países receptores del armamento sueco.

Sin embargo esta semana, la comisión especial resolvió autorizar a que la empresa Saab pueda iniciar las tratativas para vender a Colombia el radar de aviación militar Erieye y eventualmente también aviones. El sistema Erieye ya fue vendido a México y Pakistán, y se comenzó a negociar su venta a Arabia Saudita el pasado año.

Curiosamente, en 2006, el entonces gobierno socialdemócrata de Göran Persson, desautorizó a la empresa Bofors, del grupo Saab, a vender repuestos de cañones antiaéreos a Venezuela, tras aceptar el reclamo norteamericano de considerar a ese país como un "gobierno peligroso".

Bofors había vendido y abastecido a Venezuela por casi 20 años sin ningún cuestionamiento

En la página del Ministerio de Relaciones Exteriores de Suecia que presenta sus vínculos con Colombia, se sostiene que en el país existe un conflicto armado desde hace casi medio siglo, y que ha provocado un desastre humanitario, con el desplazamiento forzoso de 3 millones de habitantes.

Cancillería también ha recibido informes que señalan que en Colombia, “el ejército ha cometido graves crímenes contra la población civil en ataques efectuados supuestamente contra la guerrilla�.

El diario Dagens Nyheter adelanta las protestas de las organizaciones Paz Sueca y Amnistía Internacional. Anna Ek, presidenta de la organización Paz Sueca (Svenska Fred) destaca que �teniendo en cuenta la actual situación en Colombia tendría que estar totalmente descartado de que Suecia exporte material militar a ese país.� Por su parte, Maja Åberg de Amnistía Internacional sostiene que esta decisión del gobierno viola claramente las existentes disposiciones legales en relación a las exportaciones de armas: “No podemos vender a países donde existe un conflicto o donde los derechos humanos son violados.�

El vocero del ministro de Relaciones Exteriores, declinó comentar la situación ante los requerimientos de la prensa

Esta no es la primera vez que la comisión parlamentaria ignora la ley, y cada vez hay más voces en el gobierno para cambiar la legislación y vender armas a quien desee comprarla.

En 2005, un informe preparado a pedido por el gobierno socialdemócrata al ex parlamentario del Partido del Centro, Anders Svärd, concluía que "las normas legales que regulan la exportación de materiales bélicos instituidas en Suecia y actualizadas por última vez en 1993 deben ser actualizadas".

La líder del Partido del Centro y ministra de Comercio, Maud Olofsson, ha sostenido anteriormente que hay que adecuar la ley y acompañar las propuestas de Svärd. Rechaza que Suecia mantenga una política hipócrita de legislar contra la venta de armas a países en guerra y/o violadores de los derechos humanos. Lo que pasa, explica la ministra de Comercio, es que hay que actualizar la ley.

En la misma posición está el ministro de Defensa. Sten Tolgfors. "En términos generales cada país tiene derecho a defenderse, después la ley sueca indica como puede usarse el material bélico vendido en cada país. No hacemos negocios con todos los países, pero no tenemos una lista negra sino que evaluamos cada caso en particular" sostuvo el ministro cuando se lo consultó por otros negocios de armas a gobiernos dictatoriales.