Survey: Are Colombians Progressively Open-Minded or Homophobic?

N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 07:38:

Stool What did one fag say to the other? "Excuse me, can I move your stool?" I don't know if Colombians are homophobic, but with the abundance of hot chicks there, if they're gay that's just crazy.

Jay

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 07:51:

In Bogota at least Nobody I know has a problem with homosexuality, except for the retarded fundamentalist Christians, which are a problem the world over. But it's generally tolerated.

I was shocked at how many girls are not into the girl-girl thing. Up here it's a lot easier for two girls to fool around with each other, lesbian, bisexual or hetero. Down there many women say they have no problem with it but aren't into it themselves. Any comments on that?

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Albatross says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:09:

. Actually, most Colombianos aren't homophobic at all, they don't fear homosexuals, they just don't particularly like them.

Furthermore, to imply that some guy is educated, cosmopolitan or powerful just because he likes it up the shoot is idiotic.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:18:

LMFAO at Albatross. Well said, mi amigo. I know plenty of men who are cultured, educated, and powerful that don't smell like vaseline. I also know a whole crap-load of young hot women that would much rather wolf a tube steak than munch a carpet.

Jay

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:32:

LET'S KEEP IT CIVIL!! It's intolerable to see N2aquatix's detrimentally derogatory comments, jokes and the poor word choice employed in this forum which it's intended to be foremostly CIVILIZED. They are quite disrespectful, greatly demeaning and simply out of place; they don't have a place in the civilized dialogue I am trying to have. Let's show ALL people (yes...including gay people) respect.
Regarding the comment "but with the abundance of hot chicks there, if they're gay that's just crazy", the only thing that is shown is people's lack of understanding about gay people are of a perfectly normal and functional nature, just like anyone of us. Being gay is not a matter of being crazy, it's a NATURE matter of being born like that. Science is providing more and more irrefutable evidence about this. This is some of the latest http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/03/science/03cell.html
But please remember this debate is NOT about GAY NATURE!!
I opened this debate to get PBH members' thoughts and ideas on the topic, and NOT to throw epithets that might degenerate the course of the debate. LET'S KEEP IT CIVIL!!
In reference to Rubiazo's observations, it's true that most Colombian girls are not willing to do the girl-girl thing; I think that stems from their religious upbringing, and the place a macho-infused culture has give them in society.
Now, don't get me wrong, GIRLS (as I am sure some GUYS) from some regions can be more progressively OPEN-MINDED and sexually WILLING than others depending upon their regional culture. That's for us to find out!

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:36:

Chill Geez, chill dude. I was just having a bit of fun. Don't be so sensitive. If you want to huff a woody that's your choice.

Jay

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ColombianoX says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:40:

"Nobody I know has a problem with homosexuality, except for the retarded fundamentalist Christians, whch are a problem the world over."


Rubiazo,

I see, so not accepting something that is morally wrong makes many christians "fundamentally retarded".


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Albatross says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:44:

I don't think so... Sorry Colombuenazo, but homosexuality is NOT a state of being, it's an action.

No-one is born homosexual (or heterosexual), they must take action to become so, and when someone acts, they cannot claim that are not responsible for their actions...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:48:

Personally I just personally don't have any desire to roll over in bed and find some guy's hairy at ss in my face.

Jay

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kernow62 says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:50:

My mother had a gay cat once, well he was AC/DC, so perhaps it is part of nature. Of course I would also say he was a freak of nature just like a two headed cat.

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:50:

Who? Who here is in a position to decide what is and isn't morally wrong in terms of sexuality?

As long as sexual acts are being performed between two (or sometimes more) consenting adults who are fully aware of what they are doing and agree to it, then to each his own. As long as the gay person engaging in the act is using his own butt and not asking to borrow anyone elses, I don't see how that could affect anyone else.

Colombuenazo just asked a civilized question: is there a market in colombia catering to gay turism? I don't know how that turned into a joke thread or how suddenly it switched to guys fantasizing about watching two girls going at it with each other (how typical).

No point in making stupid jokes that are out of place. The fact is gays tend to travel quite a bit, just look at the tourism industry in Brazil, I know plenty of gay guys that travel there 4 or 5 times a year.

As a matter of fact, Bogota has a very decent gay nightlife.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:55:

??? So.............Colombiche is in touch with her gay side???

Jay

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Albatross says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:55:

Wrong... "... gay people ... educated and cosmopolitan, and they have power and political clout"

"Are Colombians that conservatively regressive, backward-thinking and homophobic"

The guy was asking for it...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 08:56:

N2aquatix I am fully aware that'd be my choice (as well as yours or anyone's for that matter) in case I decided to do so, but all I am trying to do it's to keep a civilized debate on 1)whether Colombians are progressively open-minded, 2) Thoughts/ideas about gay-friendly places, cities, towns in Colombia and 3) Gauging if those kind of businesses are a good idea!
Furthermore, this is in response to ColombianoX's comment:
We can't come up with MORAL ABSOLUTISMS here. Remember, Hitler's and the Europeans' ideas to exterminate Jew and Indigenous peoples respectively, were morally right to them. Also, Uribe's and Bush's religiously regressive agenda for sex-abstaining before marriage, as well as invading Iraq and supporting the Autodefensas, is morally right to them.
Moral absolutisms are irrationally conceived and could have devastating consequences in humanity.

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litost says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:02:

The problem is that there is barely an international tourism industry in Colombia to begin with, much less specialized packages such as what you mention for gay travellers. But as for the general question on open-mindedness, I think that in Bogotá overall there is a high tolerance though I think it would be a stretch to call it acceptance, of gay lifestyle. In any case, as Colombiche says there is a very dynamic and varied gay nightlife scene in Bogotá. I'm not very sure about other cities though, but my impression is that the stereotypes and homophobia are much more present in smaller cities and have a long way to go before offering gay people their right to express and enjoy themselves how they wish.

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michaelz says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:12:

observations One of my sisters is a lesbian, the other two are not. Based on what I'vs seen, much of homsexuality is probably genetically determined. Howver, it can also be learned, as any prison should demonstrate.

I know a gay colombian. In fact, he introduced my girlfriend to me. From the impression he gives, homosexuals do not have an easy time of it in Colombia, probably worse than in the USA. He made disparaging comments about gays at first to sound me out and see if I would join in.

Why is it that its ok for gays to make favorable generalizations about themselves (successful, sophisticated, cosmopolitan) but unacceptable for heteros to make unfavorable generalizations?

It's not just the fundamentalist christians who are anti-homosexual. I think Islam is even more judgemental. Don't they stone people for overt homosexual acts in the middle east. Some cultures permit it, more cultures seem to condemn it.

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:15:

N2... What a dumb comeback, can't you think of anything remotely civilized to say? Now it turns out anybody that has an open mind about homosexuality is a fag or a dyke. Are you guys sure we have to go as far as colombia to find closemindedness, there seems to be a lot of that flying around here.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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elmodefoque says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:22:

If a guy enjoys another mans’ hairy sweaty testicles on his face, I have absolutely no problem with that as long as I don’t get accidentally rammed up my butt in the process of their wild gay sex. If that happens then “Huston, we’ve got a problem!� If accepting that kind of behavior between two consenting adults makes me a progressive thinker then by all mean, I’m guilty as charged. Hey, I‘ve lived in New York city for 41 years, I have to think like that, and if don’t like it then I would take my spic ass to Long Island, to live next to many of New York city’s finest, hopefully they wont kick and beat my black ass back to the city.
Anyway a party is not a party with out gay friends.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

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ColombianoX says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:22:

"We can't come up with MORAL ABSOLUTISMS here. Remember, Hitler's and the Europeans' ideas to exterminate Jew and Indigenous peoples respectively, were morally right to them."


ColomBuezano,

Hitler? Hitler was an evil maniac! Those of us who DON'T condone homosexuality are not out to wipe all homosexuals from the face of the earth, so that is a poor comparison! We just don't accept it as being something "normal", as some would have us believe.


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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kernow62 says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:25:

Saying Bogota has a varied gay scene is well-known, saying small towns are not likely to have a gay scene is obvious. However wouldn't the same hold true for many countries, small towns are not as open to anything not seen as the norm. This goes for seeing white guys in black villages, black guys in white towns etc. it doesn't mean they are afraid of gays which a phobia implies.

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:26:

Back to the original topic.... colombuenazo, as one of the above posters pointed out, the tourism industry in Colombia is underdeveloped enough as is. Today, we don't even have vacation packages catering to the mainstream population, let alone specialized packages specializing in a niche market such as gay activities.

I am sure sooner or later it is bound to happen, but first, Colombia has to develop a tourism industry to being with.

Are colombians homophobic? Some are, some aren't. It is a Roman Catholic society, so I am sure it is not quite as overt and tolerant as say Canada, Sweden or the UK. Then again, there are always exceptions. Look at Spain, a super Catholic country where gay marriage is actually being legalized. Go figure.

I know a lot of gay colombiano males that left Medellin because they wanted to experience an openly gay life here in Canada. Maybe it is easier for them here because their families are not around?? I don't know.

The bottom line is... Colombia has to develop it tourism industry as a whole first (bring the violence down of course so more than just a few fearless gringos will venture there). Then, the country can focus on catering to niche markets.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:31:

colombuenazo You mention Uribe as supporting a sexually abstaining type of sex agenda.

Did you know Uribe's son is openly gay?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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litost says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:36:

Hey ColombianoX... isn´t your mission in life to defend everything colombian??? How about the estimated 4 million colombians who are gay... are they bad colombians? Should they just swallow their feelings and stay shut in the closet their whole life? Maybe your christian group has developed an enlightening divine method to bring them back to "normality"... would they allow an openly gay person into their church, or being a simple human being without labels is not good enough for God?

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:37:

tinto

I am actually related to Gaviria on my maternal grandmother's side, word around the family has it he is gay in an undercover sort of way. Did you know he is also a freemason?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:39:

Reasonable Comments Colombiche's and Litost's comments are very reasonable. So I guess that could certainly be an excellent business idea to be the pioneering, trend-setter to start some gay-friendly hotel, resort, restaurant, bar or whatever in Colombia in the light of having had a recent discussion about doing business in the country.
Now, it's CHISTOSO to see peoples' double standards; we love, fantasize and desire to see two or more chicks going at it (who doesn't??.. and yes, FYI, that's defined as homosexual), but when it comes to dudes, those rules DON'T apply. QUE RISA ME DA.....Where is the so-called religious morality here? We, men, are full of it...............That's for sure
Let's get real!

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carter says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:43:

Its safe to say by the look of things PBH members are homophobic Although bogota has quite a good gay scene most people see homosexuality as wrong. This is mainly due to the catholic teaching the people to forget what the 10 commandments said. Love my neighbour but if he is gay forget about it. But of course it is morally exceptable for Catholic priests and Christian Brothers to molester and rape children and continue to work in the church.

Ive never heard much about Gay tourism but met a few Gay couples enjoying the nude beaches in Parque Tyrona.


ColX - To treat people second class because the way they choose to live there life is definatly morally wrong.

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:43:

Well said Litost... I have a very good friend who is a gay male. We grew up together, and I tell you, ever since he was a boy you could tell he wasn't your typical macho guy. When he was 18 he grew so desperate with trying to cope with his feelings and terrified of his mother finding out that he tried to poison himself. His mother was crushed, not so much by his being gay , but because she couldn't bear to see her son enduring such agony.

After the day that I saw my friend lying in a hospital bed with tubes up his nose and looking sorry to have been brough back from the dead I swore to myself that I would never contribute to making another human being feel this way.

Do you guys seriously believe that my friend actually CHOSE such a painful path? I am sure he would have loved to be straight because his life would have been so easy. It wasn't in him. It never was and never will be. I love him the way he is and thank la vida everyday that he had a second chance.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:47:

I don't know Tinto.... but they seem to have more $$$$$$$$ than the rest of us mere mortals.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:54:

I don't see the need Why do you need to openly cater to gays? They are the same people as everybody else. Putting them on a pedestal is the same as condemning them to me. I couldn't imagine a gay or lesbian, alone or in couples or groups, having any problem anywhere in Bogota. The whole city is open to them!

The real trick is convincing people that Colombia is not some dangerous backawards shithole with nothing to offer a tourist. Most people in the US are shit scared to go to Colombia. Some people actually think I'm stupid for having gone in the first place without my own private army to back me up, it's unbelieveable the ignorance of some people. I personally think Bogota is a very cosmopolitan place whether you are straight, gay, or into animals, cockroaches, whatever.

From all the Colombians I know both here and in Canada and down there, I'd have to say Colombians are in general very tolerant people. Thank God these days there is really no such thing as a "Catholic" country anymore. People are too intelligent for that fucking crap now. Colombians and Brazilians are both big friends of the condom and that is why these countries have lower HIV prevalency than the USA, where there are a lot of people who still are very backwards.

ColombianoX, yes that is EXACTLY what I'm saying. I have an extremely low opinion of you or anybody else who deals in moral absolutes. I am tolerant of anybody and anything EXCEPT for people who try to mess with other people's freedom and impose their beliefs on others. I believe very firmly in 'do what thou wilt'.

To me any sex that keeps the birth rate down in this day and age of overcrowding is good sex, and as long as it's SAFE sex, it's not a public health hazard.

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ColombianoX says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:55:

"Hey ColombianoX... isn´t your mission in life to defend everything colombian???"

Litost,

No, I do not "defend everything colombian"! You don't see me defending the FARC, the ELN, the paramilitaries and all of those despicable narco-traffickers just because they're also colombian, do you?

"How about the estimated 4 million colombians who are gay... are they bad colombians? "

No, they aren't "bad" colombians since they aren't breaking the law or harming anyone else. I wouldn't say that being homosexuals makes them "bad" people, just like I wouldn't say that someone who is a communist is a "bad" person solely because of their beliefs. But I just don't agree with either point of view.


"ColX - To treat people second class because the way they choose to live there life is definatly morally wrong."

Carter,

Who here is talking about treating anyone as second class? I just said I don't think it's right.


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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elmodefoque says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:56:

I have a number of gay family members. I don’t hang out with them because they’re gay, I just have nothing to say to them because they are upper class snotty Colombians from Colombia and to be honest, those types just rub me the wrong way. As a long hair young man running around the village, NYC I was always with many gay friends, I was the ultimate gay magnet. Did I ever indulge in gay sex? Absolutely NOT but I was described a male slut, I never say no to a female even if she was a gordita fea. . I even bedded a female midget, but never was able to close the deal.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

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Colombiche says on Jun 8, 2005, 09:57:

Rubiazo says "Thank God these days there is really no such thing as a "Catholic" country anymore. People are too intelligent for that fucking crap now"

Colombiche says "AMEN".

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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ColombianoX says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:04:

Rubiazo,

"Colombians and Brazilians are both big friends of the condom and that is why these countries have lower HIV prevalency than the USA,"

What are you talking about? Brasil has one of the hightest HIV rates in the world!


"Thank God these days there is really no such thing as a "Catholic" country anymore."


Keep dreaming, Colombia is and will always be predominantly christian, just like the USA!!


ColombianoX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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litost says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:13:

Yes, Mr. X, we will always be predominantly christian because it is a strong tradition and every society needs to have some sort of religious support... heck, even I consider myself catholic despite not going to church every sunday, using birth control methods, supporting gay rights, etc. I think there is a lot of beauty and profound meaning in the words about love, tolerance, solidarity, etc... BUT, that doesn´t mean I or the other colombians who call ourselves catholic agree or follow the dogma which comes from Rome or cristian priests who pretend to have THE TRUTH. I assume you do believe in morale absolutes and judge others who choose other paths, that is something my progressive humanistic open mind will never condone.

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Caballista says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:21:

To much I have nothing against homosexuals, gay or m..... men or women. What I do not like its the propaganda. If you are, you are, wear the clothes of your preference, do whatever you want, be with the person that you like, but please, stop the propaganda!!!! tooooooo muuchhhhhhhhhhh.

YOU ARE GAY!!!!!!!
YOU ARE A MAN!!!!!!
I'M A WOMAN!!!!!!!!!!!!

SO WHAT, ENJOY IT!!!!!!

Salud.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:25:

Colombuenazo To start a gay bussines in Colombia fine. but make sure you stay in Big cities, because some smaller ones still have a thing about gay people.Villavicencio is one of them, Open a gay bar there and you will ended up with a car bomb outside the place, sad but true many people in Colombia still don't accept that. Look at the Guerrilleros or paramilitares, the towns they "control" they won't allowed gays and prostitues they'll be shot. huh like if they are better.

engage brain before opening mouth

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:34:

Cali I'm not really familiar with the scene there concerning sexual minorities, but I suspect that Caleños are rather tolerant by nature towards male/female homosexuality. They may joke about them, not want their kids become gay, basically just like not to condemn them but would rather that they didn't parade around that much. I haven't seen or met anybody openly hostile towards gays in Cali.
Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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toneloc24 says on Jun 8, 2005, 10:47:

Not very open-minded My mom's from the Caribbean island of St Kitts. It's sister island, Nevis, recently made the news because it consciously turned away revenue dollars that an incoming gay tour cruise would've brought. Their decision to turn to boat away stemmed from the island of Nevis not wanting to include any aspect of the gay lifestyle in their local culture, regardless of money. Right or wrong, I can't call it. But Nevis decided the the lifestyle of flamboyant butt-fuckery was not welcomed on their island, and turned the boat away.

I say that to say, while some cultures will tolerate the gay lifestyle, some won't at all. Bogota is much different than the rest of the country. I wouldn't use it as a gauge. I'm really not sure how much gay tourism as a market would fly in Cartagena or Santa Marta. A gay tour would probably be more of a target, than a comfort zone. The "Catholic" in even well-known sinners, would come out. They'd probably be better off in a Decameron resort.

I actually know a couple of lesbians in Cartagena, but even they disguise who they really are so as not to feel the wrath. There are a couple of "down-low" clubs there that they frequent.

My Colombian friends are NOT open-minded to homosexuality.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:16:

CX ColombianoX: You said: "I wouldn't say that being homosexuals makes them "bad" people, just like I wouldn't say that someone who is a communist is a "bad" person solely because of their beliefs. But I just don't agree with either point of view. Your MORALLY ABSOLUTIST arguments are NOT holding any water; that's for sure. You are gonna have to admit QUE UD. ESTA DANDO PATEADAS DE AHOGADO.

Desideria, You said "They may joke about them, not want their kids become gay"

Let me break it down for you people: 1) Being gay is NOT a "point of view" that is upheld, or a transformation, it's just a fact of BEING, just like any other human (I don't truly know how those two things can be equated; it's like saying having sex is immoral) 2) If my kids were to be BORN gay, I would support them to the end, just because I know how detrimentally imposing society can get with them 3) You must know that Hitler and other Europeans WERE morally ABSOLUTISTS with Non-arian and Indigenous Peoples: They were RIGHT, albeit in their insane mind, to gas people in concentration camps and to massacre natives and/or and convert them to the European belief system otherwise they would be burned at the stake. How much morally absolutist can they get? I am sure if they and ColombianoX were around at the same time in history, CX NO ESTARIA VIVO PARA CONTARLA.

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:18:

Secrets Of Pleasure I'm sorry, but I don't find anything progressive about homosexuality. I can consider a lot of things progressive, like solar energy, concrete dome houses, alternate combustion fuels, ect. Maybe I'm old fashioned, but I believe that God created man with a key, and woman with a lock to insert it into, so that together they could unlock the secrets of pleasure. ;)

Jay

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:21:

litost i agree with you I'm in the same boat myself. The only difference is, you need to realize , you are now an APOSTATE and no longer a Catholic, except by culture.

If you don't believe Christians have THE TRUTH, then you're not a Christian, by simple defintion. Once again, thank God (or whoever) for this, it's about time we started becoming people instead of being sheep!!!!

And no, Brazil does not have one of the world's highest HIV rates, not by a long shot. Where do you get your statistics?
As of 2003, Brazil's Adult HIV prevalency (ages 15-49) was at 0.7, just ahead of the US at 0.6 - Colombia was at 0.1, which is about as low as it gets. Compare with Thailand at 1.8%, DR at 2.5%, Haiti at 8%, Nigeria at 9.1%, all the way up to Botswana at a whopping 38%!!!

Actually looking at the hard data on HIV prevalency busts a lot of myths. Bottom line, condoms work!!! And people will fuck with or without condoms!!!

Toneloc, most of my friends are Rolos or Paisas so maybe that makes all the difference. I tend not to hang much with 'country' people from any country.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:23:

n2a. i like that, man with a key and woman with a lock, but why did he make some guys with those little mail box keys. jijijiji

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:24:

LMFAO!!!

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:44:

ANY RATIONAL MIND? So God created Adam and Eve and Steve, as well as "keys" and "locks" and "mail box keys"?? I am sure that gay people would ARGUE that they've got the "MOST PERFECT FIT" gear.
Why are people still believing those Macondian, magic-realism-like, folk tales from the "book" that ocurred only 2000 years ago? Considering that the scientifically irrefutable age of the universe age is between 8-12 BILLION years old, and planet earth's is 4.5 BILLION years old, "God's creation", 2000 years ago, seems quite a novelty in the scheme of things.
To use Rubiazo's words "it's about time we started becoming people instead of being sheep" . Rational and intellectual HUMAN minds BRILLAN POR SU AUSENCIA in this discussion. We human beings have the power and brilliance of possessing something called a BRAIN, but most decide not to use it in the most critical thinking, independently, RATIONALLY and REASONable way? What ever happened to the Enlighment? Has anyone HEARD OF IT???

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:45:

I don't like men but i'm also not into vaginal sex with a woman. Even less now that I've already managed to sire two crotchfruits.

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cali373 says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:48:

out of topic I tink we lost site of the originally topic. In a thousand years ( while more tolerable), we will still be debating whether be gay is good or bad, born or learned. I agree there should be more investment in international tourism industry in Colombia catering to ALL walks. Even though it would be beneficial to have more american tourists I would not like to see a Colombian city become another Costa Rica or Cancun (bascially American). In my opinion it will be cheaper to go to Miami if I am not going to experience a difference in Culture or people. If it was not for FARC,ELN,AUC or drug traffickers, I think the increase of foreign tourism in the regions of Antioquia, or paisa regions will be successful. We have 2-4 star accomodations in several of Termales, Fincas, Nevado del Ruiz, the list can be ongoing. I think most americans or citizens of other rich nations will be astonished at the beauty of these area's without the cold weather.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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toneloc24 says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:57:

"Toneloc, most of my friends are Rolos or Paisas so maybe that makes all the difference. I tend not to hang much with 'country' people from any country."

Rubiazo - I'm not sure what defines a Rolo (other than that chocolate with the caramel in the middle), but I do have several friends in and from Medellin and Bogota. They vary in social class. I choose not to limit myself from normal folks, from the campo or well-educated. I definitely don't have any sort of superiority complex.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 8, 2005, 11:58:

Belief I'm a scientist and I can promise you that the fossil record does not in any way confirm that man evolved on this planet. In fact, it pretty much disputes that idea. I researched it in detail, took several courses in Anthropology, and all that can be proven is that at one point there was something similar to a man and then in the next chronological instant, modern man appeared and wiped them out entirely. As for why I believe in God? Belief is based on faith, not proof. It's that simple.

Jay

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kernow62 says on Jun 8, 2005, 12:14:

So... my mum's cat was born gay, hmmm. All these years I blamed it on watching the neighbours dogs. The things you can learn on PBH.

Did Peruvian indos first discover the pleasures of sticking a small rodent up the anus, enquiring minds want to know.

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cali373 says on Jun 8, 2005, 12:18:

Talking about Christian fundamentals.
You know what I find interesting about the Christian double standard is also that I see influential colombian politicians claiming to be from a better moral class because of their strong ties to the Catholic church, Yet mistresses a very much prevalent in all circles of Colombian society. (Not mention the other very Catholic countries that carry the torch on having mistresses France and Italy). I think it is different in Colombian polictics than US as to how the so called morally correct religious conservative politicians use the church to stay in power. In Colombia they seem to actually believe in Christian laws. At least in theory but some do not practice, other than go to church every Sunday. In the US the Morally religious correct politicians use the Christians cause to gain and stay in power, not really believing in the cause. I had a Colombian raised paisa girlfriend that once told me she backed the "conservative party" of Colombian politics, yet she never did did anything political or voted. When I asked her what values or reasons does she have for backing them, she replied it is because her hometown mostly backed the party, it had nothing to do with values or a political agenda. It had alot to do with the influence of the Catholic church in the town. I don't think that makes any sense and also the fact that she and her close female friends did not wait to be married. Oh and most of them have out of wedlock children because they do not beleive in Condoms. (Church influence? you think?)

Smile if you are a thinker!

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 12:49:

n2 Science is based in RATIONAL, SYSTEMATICALLY IRREFUTABLE and consistently REPRODUCIBLE principles; NOT on IRRATIONAL, UNPROVABLE beliefs founded on "faith".
A true scientist holds these principles to the utmost standards; a "claimed" scientist believes in unREASONable explanations. It's as simple as that.
Now, the "let me break it down for you people" was directed at the two previous, particularly-identified comments that preceded that statement. So you don't have to "Run for the Hills" dude!

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Rubiazo says on Jun 8, 2005, 12:57:

cali373: you are DEFINITELY wrong about the USA. I wish it really were that way. The sad truth is that many US politicians actually BELIEVE this shit. And that's gonna drive a lot of people out of the country.

Also if Colombia believes in Christian laws, how come prostitution is legal there?

I think in all countries politicians always attempt to portray themselves as occupying the moral high ground, although they are often the furthest people from there.

And yes, I do think that anybody who thinks that THEIR way of looking at the world is the only valid way is morally inferior to me. I think that the more open of a mind you have, the better off you are as a person. Anybody who has rejected the ridiculous concept of 'sin' is automatically on a higher level.

Most of the people I know with very rural roots have the most unbelievable superstitions. For example, I know people who won't go out on the street at night because they believe that once the sun goes down, Jesus no longer rules and Satan has HIS turn! So they try to stay indoors as much as possible after sundown. I know some people who think phones are evil and don't use phones of any sort. The list goes on.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 8, 2005, 12:57:

you don't have to break anything down to me. I've heard your arguments hundreds of times. I've discussed the topic of homosexuality hundreds of times. Keep your pompous statements to yourself and stop talking to people like everybody were a total moron.

Your thread clearly states: a survey. I was just giving you an idea what an average caleño would think about it. Not what I myself believe.

That Hitler stuff was totally uncalled for: I live in a country that has maybe the most tolerant views in the whole world towards homosexuality.

I'm off to the hills. Good advice, tinto.

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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caslug says on Jun 8, 2005, 13:04:

Gay tourism... Philadelphia and Miami, do advertise(in gay oriented media) they are gay friendly. For exactly the reason COLOMB mention...$$$, BUT they also advertise to other niche market/groups also. Gay people come in all age & niche, some maybe young and want to party(ie, looking for gay club/single scene), to older couples who want to finer things(ie, good exp restaurants, museums, etc.,). Look at Miami, it has lots of good restaurants and great nightlife while Phili has great restaurants & musuems, SF & NYC & SYNDEY have all. The gays i've known went on vacation based upon interesting/fun destination NOT becaues they are SOLEY gay friendly.

Also, a gay-friendly tourism infrastructure needs to be there. ie, hotels/restaurants that have no problem w/ gay men/women as patrons. Straight patrons & workers can't be staring or feeling uncomfortable seeing gay couples together. AND locals can't freak out if they see two guys holding hand or kissing during a romantic moonlight walk..Gay couples in general are LESS PDA(physical display of affection) than straight couples.

As for gay economic power, it's generally only apply to gay men. It really should come as no suprise why.. You have two men who work, they will make more money than men/women or women/women. BECAUSE men salary in the US is higher than women salary. Hence, stronger buying power. Good business follows the money.

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juanalejo says on Jun 8, 2005, 13:10:

Gay life My girlfriend´s best friend, and for that matter one of my best friends now a days is openly gay. He and his partner live in Bogotá and I have been out to gay bars with them quite a few times. They seem to live a very normal life, they do not hide or anything of the sort, and both their families now about them. One of them is from Cartagena and the other from Bucaramanga. According to them there are gay bars in most Colombian cities, although only the larger ones have bars that are not of the dodgy type. It seems that Cali and Medellin are as open to gay life as Bogota is, and the Caribbean area seems to be more conservative. Although I can say though that during high season Cartagena has a large gay population as I have met with them and their friends and they seem to have a great time. We were invited to a huge party in the Centro de Convenciones in Cartagena where gay people from all over the world were present, seems that a wealthy Spanish guy who loves Cartagena hosts this party every year. It also seems to me that they are opening quite fast to street life, as when I met this couple a few years back, they would not be as open to people noticing they were gay as they are now. I have been to restaurants and places both in Bogota and Cartagena with them where they hold hands in front of everybody. I was even surprised this last weekend we visited their farm near Girardot and they were all hung over from spending the night before partying in a gay bar in Melgar of all places.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 8, 2005, 13:35:

Junior High I didn't realize that so many PBH posters were still in Junior High.

Colombians, in my experience, don't seem much more or less homophobic than your average US resident outside of NYC, LA or San Francisco. As we can see from many of the posts above, however, that's not saying a lot.

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andrea_despentes says on Jun 9, 2005, 13:57:

from my personal opinion, colombian views on homosexuality vary depending on who you're talking to

big cities is ok to be gay, i dont think people care much in big cities if ur gay or not as a matter of fact, cities like bogota and medellin have tons of gay clubs, and saunas, etc.

in smaller towns i dont really think people will make a big deal outta it

christian fundamentalist sickos like the ones found in the US, might make a big deal outta it, but who gives a damn about their opinion

i dont think colombians care much about homosexuality, and gay owned business, and clubs, etc are becoming common all over the main cities.

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carter says on Jun 9, 2005, 14:30:

from a town In Bogota its fine big Gay comunity in San Gil a Gay person walks down the street the town stops and people yell abuse at them. A Colombian may call this just a joke, having a laugh etc. We don't hate them blah, blah. We tolerate them but if they walk down the street we´ll make every effort to make them feel uncomfortable, make them feel what they are is wrong because if we don't abuse them someone might think were gay.

I have never seen a non Gay member of my community stand up for gay rights in public. In an individual conversation yes, but in front of others no.

What makes me sad is that guy making fun of the Gay guy passing by doesn't even know his 16 year old son is Gay and what he´s going through.

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Paul Anthony says on Jun 9, 2005, 14:39:

What A Shock!! Being European, I have been quite shocked to read many of the remarks provoked by this simple request for information. The hysteria would be laughable except for the fact that it’s rather sad. In most of Western Europe gay people are seen as merely another element of society, they are protected by law, receive the same respect as any other members of society and are frequently viewed as valuable contributors to the society, economy and culture of their country. In recent years most member states of the European Union have enacted laws recognizing gay partnerships as similar if not the same as marriage between heterosexual couples and the European Court has outlawed discriminatory laws, employment practices etc which make gay people second class citizens. Consequently I am beginning to wonder whether homophobia is limited to this side of the Atlantic. And I really don’t understand what religion has to do with it, surely how you relate to your god is a private matter between the individual and God alone, whether that individual is homosexual, heterosexual or whatever.

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andrea_despentes says on Jun 9, 2005, 15:14:

well in san gil people might make fun of a really flamboyant person
but san gil is a tiny town, with what? 4 thousand people?
LOL

also to the guy from western europe, in western europe there is discrimination against gays, i was in spain and i remember some spanish men making fun and yelling things to some gay guys who were walking down the street in madrid.

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andrea_despentes says on Jun 9, 2005, 15:21:

[title deleted] [Let's keep this civil -Moderators]

colombianox: your job is not to determine what is morally right or wrong
you're job is to RESPECT others regardless of their beliefs, and tendencies

you are not morally better than any one else, simply because you are a catholic, i am colombian and i was born a catholic and there is nothing i despise mroe than the catholic church and its ignorance, and its prejudice and its backwater mentality

thank God i am educated enough and i know what is good or bad [deleted]

i am currently an atheist thank GOD.

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platano says on Jun 9, 2005, 16:27:

The question is should Colombia welcome tourists who are... IN LOVE.

Relationship is about LOVE. It isn't about keys and locks, or keys and keys, or locks and locks. Very little time each day is spent consumating a sexual act. Love is a 24 hour a day thing. Sex is not.

Relationship is about two hearts beating in unison. The topic of this thread is whether those loving hearts should be welcome in Colombia as tourists.

Yo digo que sí. He dicho.

Plátano, el banano verde, enamorado de la vida misma.
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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kernow62 says on Jun 9, 2005, 16:28:

I believe both the FARC and AUC do not care for the gay lifestyle. There they are in agreement irt seems.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 10, 2005, 09:05:

I hate to keep repeating myself but this is a subject very close to my heart and is due to my clubbing days circa 1970’s NYC when I was running with a bunch of people including a number of very obvious gay friends. .
Listen, if a handsome young man finds great pleasure and enjoyment in the fragrance, the texture of another guy’s sweaty hairy balls resting on his face, then by all means more power to him. I expect the same acceptance when I stick my face in women’s most private areas, places where the sun don’t shine and places where you some times come out smelling funky especially during that time of the month.. Hey, that’s what I like!
This is a subject I differ from many of my fellow corronchos in Barranquilla who still maintain that very strong macho attitude, but I do notice a slight change. We now have the biggest gay parade in Colombia, right smack in the middle of the heart of corroccho territory.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

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carter says on Jun 10, 2005, 09:11:

andrea San Gil Population 50,000

second biggest town in Santander I think just knocking off Socorro.

The word "Marica" in English "Gay" I would say is the most commonly used word in Santander. It may be said in a jokingly manner but it suggests being Gay is a Bad thing. For a Gay person to hear this a 1,000 times a day must be a little tough on them no matter how flamboyant they are and even if its not aimed at them.

A lot of people here actually know one sentence in English "You are Gay" they love saying this they think its hysterical. OOOhh the Colombian sense of humor.

Don't get me wrong people I love Colombia but there treatment of Gay people is a disgrace. As it is in many other countries.

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Albatross says on Jun 10, 2005, 10:04:

Too Twisted For Words... First of all, what does "being European" mean ?
Are we supposed to believe European culture imparts some special wisdom or tolerance to its citizens ?
Tell that to the Roma in Eastern Europe or the Muslims in Srebrenica...

Second, what is truly unintelligible is that grown men who grope other men would somehow think that the rest of society should have no ill opinion of their actions; that they should be able to prance around with their “husbands� with the full approval of every single person they meet; or that they should be encouraged to adopt and raise children as if they were the very embodiment of parenthood itself.

But an older guy going to Colombia to meet a beautiful young Colombiana... now that’s just plain sick.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Paul Anthony says on Jun 10, 2005, 12:06:

Interesting Are you suggesting it’s OK for a man to grope a woman uninvited? In both cases its gross unacceptable behavior or maybe you think its how any guy should conduct himself.

If you had looked at what I had written more carefully you would have noted that I confined my examples to Western Europe, every case you quote refers to the Balkans and Eastern Europe.

Society’s opinion is irrelevant and more often than not wrong, that’s why laws exist to protect people, particularly minorities, from the more badly educated, ignorant and extreme elements of society.

I don’t recall having said anything about “adoption�, furthermore I was very careful to use the phrase “same sex partnerships� consequently “husbands� don’t come into it. I also wonder why you assume these same sex partnerships refer only to men. And what is all this about older men going to Colombia to meet beautiful young Colombianas. Are saying its bad or good? In fact what are you saying?

Anyway Albatross your views are interesting and very enlightening. Thank you.

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andrea_despentes says on Jun 10, 2005, 12:39:

paul anthony i beg to differ

but in western europe is common to have neo nazis attack gays, also minorities

i recall being in barcelona spain, and seeing a flamboyant guy walking down the street, while 4 spanish boys were yelling horrible things at him, also in italy is common to see people harrasing gays.

this is to the other guy:
u cant compare a small town like san gil, in the middle of colombia and the level of approval people might have there towards gays, and the level of approval people might for gays in amsterdam, paris or london, new york city is just unfair.

overall i am from colombia and i can tell u where i live (medellin) no one would really care if ur gay or not, unless u go out dressed as a drag queen, kissing your male boyfriend in front of every one!!! that would get some looks, but hey that would even get looks in paris, london, or new york city and dont tell me not, because i have been to all those three cities.

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juanalejo says on Jun 10, 2005, 16:55:

Virginia I found out last night taking to my friends that Virignia past a law that an openly gay person with a son could be subject to have his kid taken away by Social Services. They even said there is campaign by human rights groups in the US as several states specially in the South and mid-West are trying to follow suit.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 10, 2005, 23:54:

I wondered when someone was going to mention the word "marica". It seems to me that we covered this ground before and I got slammed for saying that there were tons of maricas in Colombia. It's a close contest between "marica" and "mongolico" for most overused Spanish word in my house. Hey why can two gay women get started on a trip faster than 2 gay guys? Because while the chicks are doing 69, the guys are still getting their sh*t packed.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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N2Aquatix says on Jun 13, 2005, 10:53:

Less Cosmopolitan LMFAO at UTC's comment about leaving for a trip. I also got a laugh out of Elmo's description of someone enjoying getting "tea-bagged." It's nice to see that we all have a sense of humor. I too remember the 70's when here in the USA it was considered chic to be gay. I'm sure that gays have always been around and will always be around. I think that in the third world, generally speaking, there is more homophobia simply because of the less cosmopolitan atmosphere.

Jay

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YEP says on Jun 14, 2005, 06:38:

he he .... Des .... Holding a "Moron mirror" up for initial poster.

Buddy ... whatever you quest you have a a list of shortcommings yourself that the paper produced from Swedish forrests wouldn't be enough if we had to bring them all.

Now to put all "Europens" in one bucket and classify them as reason for jews to be killed in GERMAN concentration camps just goes to display your own ignorance during your own education .... and it seems you have quite a lot to do on that account.

OH by the way ... my uncle is gay ... fina fella and supportive and all that. You on the other hand must be living in some blindfolded gay enclave somewhere.

Please ignore posts that you find stupid in the future so we can keep things reasonable.


-------------------------------------------------------------------
Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

------------------------------------------------------------------- Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

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carter says on Jun 14, 2005, 10:00:

andrea Im not comparing San gil to NY, London or Sydney.

The original post is about tourism in Colombia.

San Gil, Barichara and the surrounding areas are popular tourist towns. So I believe it is well worth mentioning to someone planning on setting up tours for gay couples that some small tourist towns are slightly homophobic.

Colombia is not only medellin, Bogota and Cali.

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ColomBuenazo says on Jun 16, 2005, 09:41:

YEP's Comments Talking about mirrors, morons, Swedish forests and gay enclaves....It is hilarious to see how intellectually-challenged individuals have to resort to personal attacks simply because of their inability to tackle an argument in compliance with PBH rules, which clearly attempt to keep the forum civil.

YEP says "Now to put all "Europens" in one bucket and classify them as reason for jews to be killed in GERMAN concentration camps just goes to display your own ignorance during your own education .... and it seems you have quite a lot to do on that account"

RESPONSE:
Clearly, to only talk about Germany in the European context would represent a myoptic, unintellectual and shortsighted argument.
The issue obviously did not have to do with Europeans and/or single nations, instead it had to do with European MORAL ABSOLUTISMS which were exposed simply to illustrate and juxtapose the topic at hand. The fundamental argument about EUROPEANS and their historical MORAL ABSOLUTISM DOES (INDEED) irrefutably square with the issue of religious (Christian/Catholic) and cultural self-rightneousness regarding moral matters. Aside from the European MORAL ABSOLUTISM of Germany (Nazism), nearly all European nations have infamous episodes of MORAL SUPERIORITY rooted in their European mentality, which incidently makes a fundamental part of what is now called Western Civilization. For instance Spain, Portugal, England, France, Holland, Italy, Sweden, etc. (Genocide and enslavements of Indigenous, African and Asian peoples, Colonialism, Exploitation and/or any combination of these).
HAS a European PATTERN started to emerge here? So to call the issue a European issue, it's NOT completely far-fetched, and it is certainly within the realm of factual and historical relevance.
In contrast, to call the Renaissance and the Enlightnement just Italian or French but not European, would unfairly disservice the contributions of other European nations to the intellectual progress of all humanity.

Don't get me wrong, I am proudly MESTIZO that is half european and half indigenous, but it is ABSOLUTELY compelling to explicate history in the correct context so it hopefully does not repeat itself, especially when it comes to topics like homophobia, secularism, human tolerance among many others.

Finally, there's nothing more enjoyable and rewarding than EDUCATING those who righteously believe are now educated and have nothing else to learn.

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soccerstud says on Jun 29, 2005, 20:59:

OMG!!! how in the world did this whole conversation start. look thing is colombians r afraid of change. religious backgrounds made people dislike homosexuals. they don't want to change that but look i'm colombian and i know that the difference,in most colombian men, between a straight one and a gay one is about a six pack. the thing is in colombia there is a lot of gay culture only it's underground. in cartagena there r a few gay bars. in bogota there r a lot. in the big cities is more open because not everyone knows eachothers business. i come from a small town, in the coast to top it off. sincelejo i don't know if u've heard of it, but everything is done secretly even married and yes fathers i've had encounters with. there r a lot of them everywhere they r just scared people will finnd out and they lose their business or job. as to the original question in this post, it wouldn't be a bad idea but i suggest u stick to big cities because people r more acceting there. in cartagena it's a little bit accepted but not as much people from the cost r much more close minded. the younger generation in colombia r a little more accepting but they still need work. i know of a underground network of gay guys in the coast. they all know eachother or someone who knows someone else but it's all word of mouth for they r afraid of attacks and stuff like that. as to all u homophobic scum let people live their lives they don't do anything to you and as for the thing about maricas well i use that word a lot for everything but when it comes to an actual homosexual person i don't use that word and yes i am gay myself. my partner and i will be moving to cartagena soon. we both live in the us and he is american. about the thing with the beers it's true because i've been involved with men that say they r straight and r married with kids. when i was younger i even screwed some of my friends dads so don't kepp hating because u never know if ur own father like to get his butt plugged.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 29, 2005, 21:48:

Geez, my own dad's taking it up the tail pipe? Mom's gonna be pissed - she could have been using that big strap-on dildo on him all these years. As Cedric says, now don't be drinking that Hatorade.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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