Street Kids, to give money or not?

villdkatta says on Nov 13, 2004, 18:56:

I'd like to adopt one of them and bring him home and show him a spoiled life. I don't think they are free for adoption, though. It makes me sad that they live that kind of life.

Kim

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 13, 2004, 19:02:

i had an idea actually my friend suggested we made a fund for our local street kid,
to buy him a suit, get him groomed and washed, and then take him to plaza de las americas, for a night out, and see what happens,
and if he had no luck, drop him off at a whore house.
but we decided not, as we were stoned at the time,
and i just remembered now.

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villdkatta says on Nov 13, 2004, 19:14:

I don't think a hooker is the answer, though, food and education, although highly underrated, would be more effective, don't you think?

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Sam Salmon says on Nov 13, 2004, 20:35:

It's sometimes a tough call.
Even here in sylvan Vancouver BC we have street people-not the quite the wasted mini thugs of Cartagena-but wasted all the same.
I agree that in general giving cash is a poor idea-better to give food unless you happen to know the indivdual unfortunate.

' a la orden!'

' a la orden!'

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Miguel says on Nov 13, 2004, 23:02:

What a surprise (not) Max has a great idea, then follows it up by blowing all his credibility. I wonder if his thoughtful insight is based on his entire two days in Barranquilla or more extensive time spent in Colombia? Mind you that this comes from a guy who challenged Elmo's knowledge of Barranquilla before he insinutated that Elmodefoque and I were gay, and has informed the board that there are poor street kids and poverty in Colombia. I rest my case.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Nov 14, 2004, 00:48:

I agree giving money to street kids is probably not a good idea. If you give them something nice to eat they are almost always happy. Just tell them you'll buy them something to eat, they'll come with you to the shop and you get them something. I do always try to buy something from the kids and adults who sell sweets and cigarettes and stuff on the street and on the buses. A friend in Colombia taught me that: you have to be "solidary" with the poor people.

Poor but snappy

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Atrevido says on Nov 14, 2004, 03:02:

I won't give street kids money. They are not adults out of work. I do give to "desplasados" families, you know the family with their luggage at the stoplight but I'm not sure that's not a hussle too. There's a raggety, mostly toothless, filthy "loco" who hangs out at a Tiger Market I go to and I buy him a muffin and coffee. One time I was in Restrepo with two friends, one European and one Colombian. Pissed me off that they nailed the gringo in the group instantly but a woman and her daughter walked right up to me waiving a supposed doctor's prescription in my face and started demanding that I pay for it. Some hutzpah! Of course I just laughed at them.

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 06:15:

okay miguel, my humer is quite difficult to understand,
you see, what i wrote was a light harted joke,
which i thought someone may appreciate,
i wasnt seriously going to make a fund to take a street kid out and get him laid.
however we did have an idea to teach him sweedish, just for a laugh.
but we were also stoned at the time.
and as for roughing it before,
i was not a traveller to begin with in colombia,
i was on a swiss personel UN peacekeeping amnisty operation in the sierra navada.
so when elmo challanges me about roughing it, i found it funny,
but i was not going to come out with my life story, like him.
take it easy.

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 07:02:

jajajajajajajaj tinto however in swizterland we start cadets in private schools aged 14.
and no it was 2004, january-july.
and switzerland only has a defensive army bias.
but contributes largly to UN OP's.
a 16 year old can be commisioned for UN peacekeeping OP's.
my brother was 17 when he went to Kosovo.
its not a specail forces branch at all.
a unit of spanish speaking personel in 2003 were sent to nicaragua to comence training in close confrontation combat, and jungle warfare. 4 months.
sent to makeshift base outside riohacha, to learn about political violence. 1 week
given briefing about amnesty work for unarmed paramilitary and guerilla movements in small villages. again unarmed.
handing out information about amnesty, for information, weapons, cocaine.
ohh and the age ranga of this unit? 18-24.
and i was charged with misconduct, and sent home after 2 weeks. for being naughty as you would say.
but it dosnt matter tinto, believe it or not.

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 07:50:

and some more info tinto In 2003, the Secretary-General provided his good offices in the search for a peaceful solution to the nearly 40-year-old conflict in Colombia. The expanding conflict—which is largely fuelled by funds from the illicit drug trade—constituted a significant challenge for the United Nations agencies and programmes that have been working to alleviate its adverse humanitarian effects and address its root causes. Despite the rupture in talks between the Government and the two major guerrilla groups—the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia and the National Liberation Army—the Secretary-General’s Special Adviser on Colombia continued, through regular contacts with the Government, guerrilla groups, civil society and the international community, to provide assistance to the parties to find a comprehensive solution to the conflict.

UN military observers - commonly called "blue berets" - serve in small teams and are unarmed. Without exception they are all specially trained officers in the uniform of the State that sent them. They serve as the "eyes and ears" of the UN Security Council in New York. For every engagement, their mission is precisely defined. Their tasks mainly involve monitoring of a cease-fire, implementation of peace agreements, mediation between the parties involved and prevention of dangerous escalation of conflicts.(THE SPECAILLY TRAINED OFFICERS PART IS AN OVERSTATEMENT)

"Report 90 on the Security Policy of Switzerland" qualified the deployment of personnel for peace-keeping operations as an important form of active peace promotion. It underlined that such engagements were not only in the interest of the population concerned, but as a result of more stable international conditions would in the long term also enhance the security of Switzerland. In view of the changed international situation, the new Security Policy 2000 Report goes one step further. It presents peace support as a main emphasis of the new "security through cooperation" strategy.
(ANOTHER CHURN OF SHIT, I DONT UNDERSTAND HOW OUR OPERATION WILL BENIFIT SWISS PEOPLE IN FUTURE, BUT I UNDERSTAND THAT IT MAKES THE DEFENSE BUDGET BIGGER AND DOSNT MAKE US LOOK LIKE COWARDS TO THE INTERNATIONAL EYES OF THE WORLD)

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 08:21:

one of the reasons i was repatreated i believe is that i apparently lowered moral, by talking about these issues.
i would agree, peacekeeping should be left to highly skilled professionals.
not a bunch of teenagers and university drop outs handing out leaflets and putting themselves in dangerous situations without weapons, we were asking for trouble, but had our lucky UN badges and helmets.
good thing the FARC thinks they resemble an army and not a terrorist organisation.

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sydneygirl says on Nov 14, 2004, 08:50:

hey nomad You sound like the life you lead is a very adventurous one. It was most satisfying reading your replies to Miguel and Tinto who obviously like to be negitive and tried to make you look bad, they probably live in middle america and watch too much CSI and think that they are detectives.(if your not american...im sorry its just that closed minded behaviour makes me think your part of the 52% that voted Bush!)

I find it annoying when people who have been on this earth longer than you assume they know way more. If you have experienced a lot then maybe you are rich in information form one particular area even if you havn´t been around for longer than 19 years.
This forum is for everyone, why do you "older" ones assume that you are so superior?

I think Nomad-Max is a cool guy, he admits to his mistakes, he apoligised to Elmo, and hes honest and out there with his info, unlike some people on this site who never post any useful info and only ever tear apart other peoples posts.
Good for you Nomad Max!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 14, 2004, 09:24:

oh my god and this was the best plan they came up with? To send high-school kids wearing blue berets to keep peace in Colombia? I've always have some faith in the UN and believe that their peace-keeping efforts have been, at least, partially successful in many other hot spots inthe world, but now I know why we haven't heard of any serious commitment to try obtain a negotiated peace in Colombia (with the help of the UN). They send cocky children who are more interested in drugs, prostitution and irritating people on the internet!
Cheers (not),
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Miguel says on Nov 14, 2004, 10:25:

FYI Sydney Girl I have never watched an episode of CSI, I voted for Kerry, and don't profess to be superior over any human being; more experienced is more accurate.

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sydneygirl says on Nov 14, 2004, 13:04:

Howard licks Bush Im glad im in Colombia thats all I can say to the fact that majority of Australians re-elected Howard.

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viewpoint says on Nov 14, 2004, 13:43:

Mad Max & Sidney Girl Stop worrying about some Colombian child sniffing glue with the few pesos he or she might receive on the street. A better financial cause might be too send the two of you back to school so Mad Max can get a degree in common sense.

The power of hunger is far greater in the streets of Colombia than the desire of sniffing glue or doing drugs. Don't worry these children and/or people of need are not being fed by you but rather by the Colombians who are first to share the little bit of economic wealth they have with those less fortunate.

Mad Max next time you every visit Colombia clean the immaturity out of your eyes and give some thought of sharing some of the money you selfishly use purchasing drugs, liquor and prositutes for your personal consumption to help feed some people that can't even buy food.

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villdkatta says on Nov 14, 2004, 14:17:

Viewpoint.... How true.

You brought up an interesting point. I think I read somewhere that the only reasons the kids get started sniffing glue is because it's a cheap way to quelch the hunger they feel. Have you heard that to be true as well?

I'm going to Mexico in the spring, and I'm going to hand out money to every single street kid I see. :-)

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viewpoint says on Nov 14, 2004, 14:28:

Villdkatta Exactly right on !!!! They smell the fumes to quench their hunger but it damages their brain. They develope anorexia and begin having trouble even holding any food down. They can go days (or a week) without any food, become addicted to the fumes and die eventually at a young age.

Yes, it happens but one cannot apply it to all (or even many) street children. It's the exception (in my opinion) and not the rule. It's not a good reason to hold back assistance that in most all cases is put to it's intended use.

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villdkatta says on Nov 14, 2004, 14:57:

That is so sad... but such an eye opener, as I feel lots of people take what they have for granted, especially in the States. I just wish I could adopt one or three of those kids and take them back home with me. Wouldn't get much hooker or drug action with me but I'd have them going to places like Stanford or Princeton in no time at all, their bellies full of good home cooking.

Yeah, I figure if you can help one person, helping others that may not be using the money in the best way is worth it. I was in Toronto and I gave $10 to this dude that looked like he'd been drinking all day, but sheesh, if I was homeless (and actually I have been in the long ago past), I might take up drinking to ease the pain also. The dude looked like someone had just handed him $200. $10 can buy a person a lot of pleasure when you just give it to them unexpectedly, KWIM?

Ah, I'm a bleeding heart liberal socialist, but it makes me happy. I'm glad there are compassionate people on this board like you that have true empathy for people out there less fortunate, though. :-)


Kim

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sydneygirl says on Nov 14, 2004, 16:31:

I agree that its really sad that they sniff cause they r hungry I did not mean any disrespect to the starving children on the street.
In fact thats what this post was originally all about, ways to help, being constructive. I often go into a shop and buy milk and bread and some fruit for a mother sitting with babies on the street begging. Its such a small help I feel really embarassed, but I do it anywya.

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Atrevido says on Nov 14, 2004, 17:26:

The other of course is Vendadora De Rosas.

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 19:00:

all i can manage with my immature mind is american assholes. Desideria, you say i have been involved with prostititutes,
when i quite clearly said i had no idea they were prostitutes,
they happened to ask for money in the morning,
like a one night stand, except a latina who thinks she can get some money out of me,
as for drugs, its not as if im an addict, its colombia for fuck sake,
its quite clear that the gene pull has stopped somewhere a few hundred years ago in america, as most of my allies in this forum have been europien, or in this case australian-(thanks)
so you inbred ignorrant prick.
my point, fuckers, is that extranero's giving pesos to kids is fucking up there lives, but you obviosly know a lot better,
and no im not saying the mass of street children will take glue, some give the money to there mother or father.
but in big cities, ie medellin, or bogota, i doubt if any,
and villdkatta , giving 10 dollars to some drunk alcholic dosnt really help you look good. if you were a man id call you many things but i cant think, i do presume you are female, and ugly, maybe you should try approaching some of the street kids in the candelaria bogota at night and see if they would like to be adopted,
i think you may lose your virginity to a 12 year old.
oh and talking of viginity Desideria, just cos you lost yours to a hooker, i presume your a man no? okay then, to a picaron.
and 'viewpioint' your just wrong wrong wrong, yeah i like to have a beer smoke some weed, thats normal, not 'selfish', tell me
what have you done to help colombia? what have you done to help street kids? how many street kids do you know? do you know there names? have you seen a dead kid? or any dead person? get your facts straight viewpiont. dick.
(oh and sorry again for my immature sense of language, as english is my second language i tend to use cursive words a lot to exclaim my thoughts)

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 14, 2004, 19:16:

also villdkatta you can not imagine my pain when i read "I'm going to Mexico in the spring, and I'm going to hand out money to every single street kid I see. :-)"
i hate you for saying this, and you know it, i have spent time with groups designed for street children, and they tell me, volenteers tell me, that extraneros are to blame for fuelling the addiction,
by giving small quantities of cash money.
i am not talking about 8 year old children i am talking about streeat teenagers more precisly, who have developed a survival method on the streets. of eating from the rubbish, taking glue and staying in groups,(not all the time) this is a the generalization of street kid.
i beg you, just give food. no matter how much they harrass you.
but at he end of the day you will do what you think is right,
i admit the right thing to do is not always obvious.

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adrimm says on Nov 14, 2004, 19:34:

I prefer to give food Even here at home, I'd rather duck into a shop and buy them a sandwich or some fruit or something. It's never been turned down. I often have chocolate bar on me that gets given away too (not so healthy, but it's sustenance).

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 14, 2004, 22:10:

max you presume wrong, I'm a woman, and a European like you as well.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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villdkatta says on Nov 14, 2004, 22:48:

Dude! I think you need to just step away from the bong or change the screen in your crack pipe. It's frying your brain.

Yeah, I am really ugly, inside and out. :-D (I'd post a pic, but I don't want your pathetic ass wacking over it.)

I do love children, but not in the way you're thinking. You can't imagine a love so pure that giving while not expecting anything in return even exists, and for that, I will always pity you.

Crystal meth kills, man, or whatever you're on... at any rate, your dribble bores me, so I'm going to have to step out of this conversation now.

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villdkatta says on Nov 14, 2004, 23:19:

Oh, and... you "hate" me? Wow, I'm impressed that I've evoked such a strong emotion from you. You must think about me day and night. Sadly, I cannot profess anything more than a rather a benign indifference for you, so the feeling is not mutual.

I really must get to bed now.

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nomad unpopular says on Nov 15, 2004, 06:57:

i started using this... site when i was first in colombia, but did not use it to discuss anything,
now that i am home and miss colombia and my girlfriend i really enjoy discussing anything about colombia,
so villdkatta, i said hate, but its not really the correct term,
as i treat this site as a game, you among others are non entities to me,
but i know in reality you are capable of making dicisions which can effect others lives,
i can not in reality hate someone i do not know, but im sure if was unfortunate enough to meet you, i would most likely dislike you.
ohh and also, with the street kids, i was incinuating that you would be raped, not that you would want to loose your virginity to a 12 year old, turns out your the one with the sick mind.
and the drugs thing? yeah whatever, thats a bit immature.

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lozza says on Nov 15, 2004, 08:26:

Alright, enough of the handbag throwing. Point is, if you are going to give these kids something, buy them some food - Giving money may be fine and may be used in a healthy/constructive/beneficial way - but then it might not, whatever generalizations you maight have or things you've heard, you don't actually KNOW what that individual will do with the money. It is also common for the younger kids to be used by adults (often parents) as a sympathy vote, then the adult takes the money and uses it as they wish and the kid still has nothing. Older gangs of kids also mug the younger ones for the money they have made. Sit a kid down, ask him what he wants to eat/drink and get it for them - they WILL be grateful, it WILL be something they need, they WILL NOT lose anything and you won't need to worry about whether your charity has gone to something good or just to something that will screw them up even more.

Cheers

Loz

PS. Tinto, 'marijuana, cocaine and prostitutes (all of which are legal in Colombia)' ?!?!?!
Is that true? don't know about the prostitutes but i'm sure cocaine and weed aren't legally accepted in Colombia - but interesting to know if true.

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sydneygirl says on Nov 15, 2004, 08:44:

Just a minute...Nomad Hey Nomad, I support that you are passionate and care a lot about what your saying, but Desi is a really nice lady and I can´t sit back and support you trashing her like that...sorry mate....yove lost me.

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Miguel says on Nov 15, 2004, 09:37:

All Right SydneyGirl I thought we lost you yesterday.

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cintiamay says on Nov 15, 2004, 12:30:

Hmmmm.... another American asshole speaks Desi - not american
villdkatta - aren't you Canadian? (I could be wrong)
Point of View - no idea... are u plagued w/ u.s. citizenship?

just nice to see that being called an American is such an insult! But i guess the Swiss hate us as much as the rest of the world... thanks Dubya!!

Oh and to the issue at hand, I believe the glue sniffing issue is rampant as well among European and/or previous Eastern Bloc nations, utilized by young and teenage children, not just in South or Central America. I unbelievably agree with Mr. Nomad Picarron that food is best instead of money. It is impossible to know what will be done w/ money or if it will ever benefit the child its given to. Of course, buying food takes more time, much easier, if you were going to do anything at all, to just empty your pockets of change.

Anyway, Nomad, you should chill out. You seem to have a distinct opinion and pool of experience. But beating everyone up while trying to express it ruins it for you. Then again, you said "i treat this site as a game" so why do you seem to get so mad if someone differs with you?

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 15, 2004, 16:41:

John Howard. John Kerry. George Bush. Question: What does the election of any of these men have to do with Colombia? It's all politricks, they're all liars, so who cares? It almost makes the mail order bride threads seem interesting by comparison.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 15, 2004, 19:37:

Just a data point Out of curiousity I did some research to see if the UN has Bluehelmets in Colombia. As far as I can determine, there has never been a UN Peacekeeping mission here. Lots of other UN programmes but no soldiers.

On other subjects, I wouldn't give money to a kid that I knew was sniffing glue, but there's plenty of outright poverty and desperation, too. To me it's simply arrogant, or maybe condescending is a better word, when people claim to be able to read the minds and intentions of poor people on the street. Don't give money if you don't want, that's fine, but own up to your own reasons, don't blame it on some imagined moral failing of the poor.

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suzannyo says on Nov 19, 2004, 14:55:

I agree... I agree with what a lot of you have said...its better to give the child food, clothing, etc instead of money because of the obvious fact that money can be used to buy drugs, alcohol, or worse. A third alternative would be to donate funds to one of the many wonderful organizations working to make a brighter future for the many needy kids throughout Colombia. One of those organizations is CDA (Corporacion Dios es Amor--Corporation God is Love) Colombia. You can check out the work they're doing with schools, a children's home, relief work, and a technical training program for adults among other things, by going to their website in English or Spanish at www.cdacolombia.org They also have a sister organization offering really inexpensive health care to folks with no other options. Their website is www.saludcda.org

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Atrevido says on Nov 19, 2004, 15:53:

Like Their US Counterparts I wonder what porcentage of your generous donation goes to their "expenses".

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treeshark2 says on Nov 19, 2004, 18:48:

Do not give money if this is your first trip to Colombia Colombian friends who live in Cartagena have told me that many of these "street kids" are fake. Another of the old rip off the stupid gringo and tourist scams that Cartagena is so famous for. For example, you will be by the bell tower in centro between 6 and 9 Pm and kid will come to you with blood all over his face. Has been hit by a car and needs money for hospital. Kid has been hit by a car every night for the last 5 years. fake blood. stupid gringo tourist.However this advice is for CTG and the tourist areas of the old city in CTG. Beach area some what too however there seems like EVERYONE is trying to scam you.

The real street kids are looking under benches for coins at 4AM in the morning/ To me a "real street kid" is a homeless orphan.

I think that Children International works with street kids in Cartagena. Will try to find out more when I return. First time there I met a nice lady that worked with street kids and I think that was who she worked for.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 20, 2004, 14:43:

Ah, the old "fake street kids" rumor. I keep hearing this one from otherwise rational people. Let's do a little critical thinking for a change: Colombia has nearly 20% unemployment. It has almost 2 million people (50% of them kids) who have been displaced by violence. It's regularly racked by natural disasters like the Carribean floods and the Choco earthquake. Yet you think the poor kids begging in the streets are FAKE? What are they then? Rich kids out slumming for kicks? Middle class kids doing some sort of school project? Of course they're poor!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 20, 2004, 15:11:

street kids I was reading El Pais today and there was an article about the children's situation in Colombia. Since I've found out it's no use to just send a link because many people here are not that fluent in Spanish, I'm just highlighting some of the things said in that article:

"dos millones y medio son agredidos, 36.000 infantes son explotados sexualmente, 2,5 millones de pequeños trabajan y 6.000 están en grupos armados ilegales."

two and a half million children are victims of violence, 36 000 are sexually abused,2,5 million work, and 6000are enrolled in illegal armed forces.

La mitad de los colombianos son menores de 18 años. De ellos, 10,4 millones viven en situación de pobreza y 1,5 en la miseria.

Half of the Colombians are minor of age. Of them, 10,4 million live in poverty and 1,5 in misery.

I've been trying to figure out that one: to give to street kids or not myself. When living in Colombia you hear this all the time that it's no use giving them money, because they'll just sniff glue or buy drugs. Also, that it's just a scam, many of them are not needy at all, just sent out by their parents to make easy money.

I've come to the conclusion that you shouldn't give them money. Not that I believe that they are not needy. People who give them money are just doing it to ease their own conscience. I'd give them food, clothes, a scholarship in a school. Had I the means I'd provide a shelter and some form of education.

Are they scamming? Yes, many of them are. But not because their parents are wealthy, but because if they come up with some kind of story they'll get more money. They show you a prescription for medicines they can't afford, is it real? Sometimes it is, sometimes it isn't. In all the cases, the money, food, protection is desperately needed! Who cares, if they give you a little lie to soften your heart.

The only time I felt I was doing right by not giving money was when a young, able-bodied man rang my doorbell and I asked him to mow the lawn, and I'd pay him. He just looked at me and said..."I'm not looking for work". There are that kind also.

Cheers,
Desi

These are statistics from Icbf (Instituto Colombiano de Bienestar Familiar)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Lionheart says on Nov 21, 2004, 13:38:

street kid gangs I know that many street kids belong to organized gangs in other countries, so I assume the same for Colombia. The gang structures vary, but all add up to the younger kids doing the street "work" and older kids taking the money from them. I have heard that the ladder if often higher, that it is sometimes a regular family "business" often involved in other crimes as well. Some kids are trained to be spies, informants, to locate easy targets or wealthy targets, who are taken care of by older members.

I am not saying this can be applied to all street kids, but it is common. I would think a good test would be if they are interested in money only or accept any other donation.

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JamieJ says on Nov 22, 2004, 16:34:

Mr. Hollywood “Let's do a little critical thinking for a change:”

Your example was more like selective thinking.

Treeshark2 said “many” were “fake” which means many of these “street kids” have families and homes. He never said they were not poor or all or most were “fake” as you concluded by fabricating his position.

“Yet you think the poor kids begging in the streets are FAKE?
What are they then? Rich kids out slumming for kicks? Middle class kids doing some sort of school project? Of course they're poor!”

Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 22, 2004, 16:48:

Wrong No, Jaime, your very own defination of "fake" is based on a false assumption, namely that you must be an orphan and homeless to be "real". When poor kids approach you on the street do they say, "I'm homeless and have no family. I'm an orphan?" Not once have I ever heard them say that. What they say is, "Can you please give me some money? Can you give me a moneda? A dollar?"

My point is this: Why in the hell would kids who don't NEED to beg be out there doing it? Really, playing futbol, watching TV, reading books, whatever, is more fun that humiliating yourself begging. So I don't think they're kids just doing it for kicks. Notice that I'm not saying that the kids in the street never lie or come up with ploys to get more money. But when a company convinces you that, say, drinking their beer will make you more attractive to chicks we call it good marketing. When a street kid says they need medicine we call it lying. Personally, I don't give a damn.

I have a Colombian friend who insists that the street kids in Bogota are all controlled by a mafia and he, too, believes that they're "fake". When I pointed out that organized crime tends to focus it's efforts on things that are PROFITABLE like drugs, prostitution, extortion, kidnapping, etc. he couldn't really explain to me how the Mafia makes big bucks on their alleged network of fake street kids. Can you?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 22, 2004, 16:48:

I mean Jamie Sorry, mispelled your name.

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JamieJ says on Nov 22, 2004, 22:27:

Mr. Hollywood “No, Jaime, your very own defination of "fake" is based on a false assumption, namely that you must be an orphan and homeless to be "real".”

I never used the term “fake” which is why I put it in quotes this term was used by Treeshark2. I would not have used this description but I understood the story that he was relaying to us. He said some of these children do not really live on the street and will try to trick you in to thinking their condition is worse off than it really is. Now you can counter this as not being true, but it is not fair of you to misrepresent it which is what you did.

“My point is this: Why in the hell would kids who don't NEED to beg be out there doing it? Really, playing futbol, watching TV, reading books, whatever, is more fun that humiliating yourself begging. So I don't think they're kids just doing it for kicks.”

Treeshark2 never implied it was for “kicks” of course they are doing it for the money. But is this behavior that should be rewarded? It appears below that your answer is yes.

“Notice that I'm not saying that the kids in the street never lie or come up with ploys to get more money. But when a company convinces you that, say, drinking their beer will make you more attractive to chicks we call it good marketing. When a street kid says they need medicine we call it lying. Personally, I don't give a damn.”

The marketing company can make a good argument that your selection of their beer brand conveys a certain positive image of you to particular women that you may want to attract. This is not lying nor is a conniving kid smearing fake blood on his face just a lie. It’s a planned deception. You may not give a damn about the truth (I have learned most liberals don’t) but to most people the truth is still important as is the means to an end.

“I have a Colombian friend who insists that the street kids in Bogota are all controlled by a mafia and he, too, believes that they're "fake". When I pointed out that organized crime tends to focus it's efforts on things that are PROFITABLE like drugs, prostitution, extortion, kidnapping, etc. he couldn't really explain to me how the Mafia makes big bucks on their alleged network of fake street kids. Can you?”

Yes I can they make their money in volume. A few thousand pesos daily from million of kids adds up to big, big money. Talk about out of left field why would you be asking me to explain your friend’s cockeyed beliefs? Maybe you can explain why you think I should be explaining a view I do not share?

Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 23, 2004, 05:57:

Not to quibble, but what treeshark said was "The real street kids are the ones under the park benchs at 4 AM looking for coins." By implication he's saying that the rest are fake.

"It’s a planned deception. You may not give a damn about the truth (I have learned most liberals don’t) but to most people the truth is still important as is the means to an end."

I'm sure you hold the women you are promoting on "Engage the Exotic" to strict standards of truth and accuracy like you do the street kids.

"Yes I can they make their money in volume. A few thousand pesos daily from million of kids adds up to big, big money. "

Have you ever tried managing a million of anything? Let's put it this way, Microsoft has less than 60,000 employees. And look at that management challenge. Even Bill Gates couldn't pull a profit out of managing a million street kids at a few thousand pesos a day in revenue.

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JamieJ says on Nov 24, 2004, 19:08:

Mr. Hollywood Please read more carefully you are missing the communication.

“"The real street kids are the ones under the park benchs at 4 AM looking for coins." By implication he's saying that the rest are fake.”

My first point was I did not say this and you indicated by name that I did say this. My second point was Treeshark2’s use of the word “fake” was only to convey that they did not actually live on the streets. What you did is redefined what he said and then made an argument against a position he did not voice.

"It’s a planned deception. You may not give a damn about the truth (I have learned most liberals don’t) but to most people the truth is still important as is the means to an end."
“I'm sure you hold the women you are promoting on "Engage the Exotic" to strict standards of truth and accuracy like you do the street kids.”

I am not surprised that someone like yourself who defends lying finds it difficult to believe in the virtues of honesty in others, but truth is not an on and off button for me. I can’t hold others to strict standards of truth and accuracy only myself, but I do hold others accountable to the truth under my small realm of influence including the women that use International Introductions services. I had an engaged couple that recently broke up after a short engagement. The woman consequently had her engagement ring “stolen” right before she ended the relationship. Now I don’t have to be involved in this. I actually told the guy I did not think this was the right woman for him before he even got engaged but I am investigating this incident on my own because I don’t reward dishonesty or stand by when I see it occur.

“"Yes I can they make their money in volume. A few thousand pesos daily from million of kids adds up to big, big money. "Have you ever tried managing a million of anything? Let's put it this way, Microsoft has less than 60,000 employees. And look at that management challenge. Even Bill Gates couldn't pull a profit out of managing a million street kids at a few thousand pesos a day in revenue.”

I am not sure how you could not recognize the flagrant sarcasm of my reply to your silly question: “Yes I can they make their money in volume. A few thousand pesos daily from million of kids adds up to big, big money.” Immediately after this line I stated that your question was “out of left field” which means for one that it was irrelevant and popped in out of know where. I then say your friend’s belief is “cockeyed” which means it was ridiculous. I then mentioned I do not share this view and why should I give an answer to your question regarding your friends view. Which means the sarcastic answer I gave to your question that I openly noted as irrelevant and ridiculous could not really be an answer, yet you responded to it as if it was. You missed the clearly written content of what Treeshark2 said and you do the same from what I say.

Again:
“Talk about out of left field why would you be asking me to explain your friend’s cockeyed beliefs? Maybe you can explain why you think I should be explaining a view I do not share?”

It has been noted by many right thinking intellectuals that liberals are blind to truth, logic and reason and that liberals base their opinions on emotions and feelings. I see this blindness has become more widespread and now encompasses black and white type.


Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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Lionheart says on Nov 24, 2004, 20:39:

b&w US Americans can only think black or white. They have no clue about grey zones.

Hollywood also did not understand that many street kids are at their apprenticeship to become criminals. They are being trained for deception. The best move up and perform other crimes. It is not about big money, it is a training phase. Next step is to replicate your debit card number and watch you type in pin.

God, people, don't be so dense, relax ... this is Friendly Talkzone

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treeshark2 says on Nov 24, 2004, 20:51:

treeshark not good with words First post was badly done. I did do an edit. MY defination of a street kid is a homeless orphan. And I think that someone who is going to CTG for the first time should not give out any money. My Colombian friends said that many pretending to be street kids are not. just out to scam a tourist. And afterwards they laugh at the stupid gringo tourist. When you give money to someone and they think that you are stupid for having given them money, you are being scammed. They told me not to give anyone money in the old city area of CTG.
The night that I saw the kids looking under the park benchs, I realised that they were not playing rip the tourist off games. Had seen them that day and the next day I did give them money. And also looked closely at their friends.
I have been in some of the poorest areas of CTG. There are a lot of poor in CTG. Go by the park that is next to the Gold Museum at 4 AM. Count how many people are sleeping in the park.
If a child just holds out his hand or just says monedas? odds are he is "real" when they start talking about auto accidents and money for hospital, well that kid has tried that one on me at least 4 times.
Many was a bad word to use. Some might be better word.

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JamieJ says on Nov 27, 2004, 20:07:

Lionheart "US Americans can only think black or white. They have no clue about grey zones."

By black and white I was literally referring to written text not his way of thinking. It is inane of you to say American think like this... I guess we can even say somewhat black and white of you.
No other nation thinks in as many variations of color as we do. We would not be the worlds most creative force and greatest magnate if this was the case.

"God, people, don't be so dense, relax ... this is Friendly Talkzone"

There is nothing wrong with a little spirited debate. However to call Mr. Hollywood "dense" and than say lets be friendly is hypocritical.

Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 28, 2004, 10:42:

Thanks for clarifying, treeshark2! I appreciate your clarification, Treeshark2. My apologies for misinterpreting your position, then.

Jamie, since you're so honest, may I suggest you begin by removing this falsehood from your site, "There is a reason why Colombia has the lowest divorce rate in the world; their world is centered on the family." Both divorce and "virtual" divorce (meaning practical, permanent separations, second and 3rd families, etc.) are rampant in Colombia. At the very least, if you're going to claim that, back it up with a reputable source.

Likewise, your railings about "liberals" are quite weird. My own leanings are actually more libertarian (with a small l, though, I can't stand the ruthless and selfish Ayn Rand wing of things) than liberal, though I don't think there's anything wrong with being a liberal.

My own position about street kids and poverty is, in fact, based on both reason and emotion. The reason part is this: It's obvious there's a lot of pain and suffering and need in this country. To me, to characterize this need and pain and suffering as something else is just a form of denial. Emotionally, I believe that it's our duty as people to be compassionate to those around us who suffer. Especially those of us who are guests in this country and who receive so much from it. Compassion can take many forms but I don't think characterizing the vast majority of poor kids as criminals in training or scammers is particularly compassionate.

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Atrevido says on Nov 28, 2004, 16:37:

I watched as a little kid in the food vending area of the Exito in La Flora, Cali go from table to table asking for monedas. The little bugger did pretty well. His best hits were single women. I lost track of him after a while. I wanted to see if he returned to a parent or what. How long would it take a halfway smart kid to learn he could get all kinds of candy (or drug?) money in no time with this routine since nobody turns them in?

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Atrevido says on Nov 28, 2004, 17:35:

Drive down La Quinta in Cali and you'll be given the opportunity to donate at every stoplight. At major ones there will be child acrobats, three deep one standind on the shoulders of another with the top one twirling firebrands. There will be people in wheelchairs with knarled legs rolled along through the traffic, hands out. At one not far from Unicentro a man walks among the cars shirtless. He's terribly deformed. It appears he's lost one side of his rib cage. There are black families with suitcases and many niños sitting in the shade hoping for handouts...desplazados from Choco. There are others, campesinos desplazados with letreros explaining their situation. There are mimos dressed as Charlie Chaplin, "Robots" in silver costumes who walk and move their arms like mechanical men. There are some that sell a little box of chicklets with two pieces of gum and if you don't want to buy you can just give them a moneda. And there are vendedores de aguacate, necklasses, bobadas, mango con sal, piña and no se que. And there are agressive window washers in all shapes and sizes and small children offering nothing who walk from car to stopped car tapping your window for a handout. Each and every one of these people want monedas. And finally when you reach your destination there will be a "parqueador" who will "watch" your car so that it is not stollen and when you leave he will hold up the oncomming traffic with his red trapo, well those who are willing to slow for a moment anyway and you will give HIM a moneda de quinientos.

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JamieJ says on Nov 29, 2004, 20:32:

Mr. Hollywood "Jamie, since you're so honest, may I suggest you begin by removing this falsehood from your site, "There is a reason why Colombia has the lowest divorce rate in the world; their world is centered on the family." Both divorce and "virtual" divorce (meaning practical, permanent separations, second and 3rd families, etc.) are rampant in Colombia. At the very least, if you're going to claim that, back it up with a reputable source."

I got the divorce data from The Economist magazine. At the beginning of each year the magazine gives an almanac of economic and demographic statistics for most of the worlds nations which they categorize by countries and by rankings. I originally wrote this based on the 2002 book but the 2003 ranking was the same for Colombia. However after living in Colombia I do agree that many couples do live together and separate and it appears more so than the U.S. but there is no way for me to add this to the equation because I do not have any hard data.

"Likewise, your railings about "liberals" are quite weird. My own leanings are actually more libertarian (with a small l, though, I can't stand the ruthless and selfish Ayn Rand wing of things) than liberal, though I don't think there's anything wrong with being a liberal."

Nothing wrong with an honest liberal or admiting when you make a mistake. Most of my girl friends have been Liberal as in Hollywood variety and I have had no problem living with them even though little by little I was converting their wayward thinking behind their backs :) Rand was the impetuous for the Libertarian party. Anyway from your opinions your leanings appear more Liberal and it has been my experience most Liberals base their views on feelings instead of facts. Reminds me of Bill Maher once saying he was Libertarian but was going to vote for the Socialist Nadar. You once objected to something I said regarding poverty some months ago and since you did not respond to my rebuttal I can only assume what your answers would be. Anyway I can’t help but rail I am visiting the States and I am listing to talk radio and it has infected me with the attack bug. I did however watch the Simmsons last night and they made fun of both the Liberals and Conservatives so hopefully I will balance out soon :) Can we just all agree to agree that this is the funniest show on T.V?
Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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dwmte says on Nov 30, 2004, 10:29:

for the love of GOD!!! which of all you so wise and well travelled humans cannot tell the difference between the poor, hungry, dispossessed and abused and the street thugs who ply their crafts with street scams.

the poor are hungry, often homeless and more often abused and even more often disallusioned. they are not trying to figure out some sublime plot to advance their position. they're poor and hungry.

give to them. give of yourself and your pocket. what are we talking about, a lot of money? or more realistically, some pocket change or maybe, at best, a few dollars?

are we appointed judges over the 'have-nots' and what they do with what precious little comes their way?

PRECIOUS LORD, try charity and generosity, kindness and love. forget all this egotism about what these miserables are doing with what they have...or more specifically, don't have.

mother theresa once commented, "...in our order, we carry a small cloth bag around our necks and in it we carry bread. when we see a hungry person, we feed them...it works every time."

dear brothers and sisters, do likewise.

dwmte

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 30, 2004, 11:00:

Thank you, DWMTE, for putting it so clearly.

Jamie, we totally agree about the Simpsons.

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villdkatta says on Nov 30, 2004, 11:40:

I agree... I also like what Jaime said, though, I think in another thread or maybe this one - I'm too tired to look - the reason some people don't advocate giving money to street kids is because it's a quick fix. Don't just throw a few pesos to ease your conscience - become aware and involved (as many here are already doing).

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Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 30, 2004, 12:08:

the quick fix My only real objection to saying that you shouldn't give money to people on the street and that you should instead give it to charities is that it creates a false dichotomy. Why can't we help on an individual level (ie. giving money, food, clothes, a kind word... to the down and out) as well as on a more organized or formal level? There's no need for one to somehow negate the other.

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villdkatta says on Nov 30, 2004, 14:06:

Exactly.... I think both is ideal. People should give what they can and do their best always. If there are "fakers" it will all even out in the end, I don't worry too much about that.

I misspelled Jamie's name - sorry!

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eafit2005 says on Nov 30, 2004, 14:59:

Since you're talking about street children, does anybody know the shoppin area El HUECO in Medellin (more or less in the centre)? There's a charity close by which is called patio13 & I'll be working there in some month...
Would be great if any of you could give me some info about the security situation over there. I sometimes wonder if it was such a smart idea to work there while taking some courses in the eafit, 'cause I don't really know if an (obvious) northern looking European can walk around there without running a great risk of getting robbed/kidnapped/... Any insights?

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treeshark2 says on Nov 30, 2004, 15:53:

Thanks DWMTE You made me realise that I have been looking at the situation in the wrong way. I return to Colombia tomorrow and will try to do things a bit different this time.

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Mi_lukea says on Dec 1, 2004, 22:20:

The majority of Australians did not vote for Howard! As an Australian who did not vote for Howard I just want to clear one thing up, Howard won with 40.9%.

In Australia, the ruling government of today is actually a coaltion of two parties, combined they won office.

Howard alone, still beat Latham. But I just wanted people to know that 59.1% did not vote for Howard!!

http://www.abc.net.au/elections/federal/2004/results/default.htm

Sorry for this disruption ... lets get back to Colombia.

besos

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mark says on Dec 1, 2004, 23:01:

I always give um money But they have to listen to my words of wisdom , if however I profile them to be druggies I wont.

usually they have something to offer , flowers, candy etc. I dont take the product, reason being,they are often exploited by someone and maintain an inventory.

I tell them that this is their money and not to give it to anyone. I tell them they will earn it for my attention. I tell them that they will teach me something and that is why i pay them.

i also tell them if they ever have a chance to be in school, to do it. I'll explain a bit about those who did their "time" in school and the difference about doing time in "jail".

i explain that life is better if one is poor with honesty, and honor. And I also explained a bit about karma.

sometimes i tell them about a friend who never went to school and worked his way as a cook to a multi-millionare, buying restaurants.

I tell them to do something very often and become good at it as long as they enjoy it and that it is an honest endeavor, I explain how this can make them an expert, sometimes i give them ideas.

I tell them when they wake up every day they should remember these things and live by them.

I tell them to ask advise from people who seem to have it all.

I tell them to go to church when they are sad and need questions answered.

I tell them they will never forget this conversation for the rest of their lives.

then and only then I give them the money.

Often i will tell them that they know what is right and what is wrong.

If I see an old man on the ground, i'll buy him food, but my words have no hope for him so i just move on, if he has a bottle of booze i'll trade it for the food... some do it .. others don't. those who accept the food also get a cig.

i've done this in many countries not just colombia, USA included.


What I do is random and I don't look for it.

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JamieJ says on Dec 2, 2004, 13:15:

Mark You have a good method of contribution. One can only wonder the extent of change that may take place. Often good advice becomes words that are normally appreciated but never acted upon.
Keep it upyou have given me somehting to think about.
Jamie
Engage The Exotic - Colombian Women

Jamie

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caslug says on Dec 2, 2004, 20:55:

gift of giving... I know that my single gift to them isn't really going to drastically change their life, but i figure I made their lives that much easier for that short time. Also, more importantly part of giving is not expecting anything back. It's a unconditional gift.

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dwmte says on Dec 4, 2004, 08:07:

giving is a DIVINE opportunity, the GOD in you, giving to the GOD in them. it's really good karma....plus--for free--you feel great. not because it was 'YOU' that gave--free yourself from that--but in truth, it was/is GOD.

two stock brokers were walking down the street in new york, clearly dressed the role--three piece suits, etc. then a panhandler approached the first one and said, "hey, buddy, can you spare $5.00?" the broker, very upset, said, "get outta my way you looser."

when the lismosnero (begger) approached the second and asked for $5.00, the young broker promptly pulled out his wallet and gave the chap a five dollar bill.

walking on, the first guy approached by the panhandler said, "why did you give him money, the *uckin looser is just gonna spend it on boose." to which the second fellow replied, "....isn't that what we were gonna do?"

TRUE giving has no sense of "i" and "other", it is simply the movement of GRACE, from one point in GOD, to another.

i don't know how many down and outs i've given money to over the years in my travels...both at home and abroad, would listen to a kind hearted discourse as suggested by "mark". that isn't to say i haven't proffered advise. but remember, our advise, is based on our observations, which are colored by our own live/experience. not by the experience of the needy. LORD knows, we think.

dw

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Save the Wildcats says on Dec 4, 2004, 09:50:

What a good story! I like that a lot.

I gave some cash to a homeless dude yesterday who had a sign posted. He looked thrilled. I was thinking about it on my drive home. It meant the world to him, where to me, I would have blown the money on a few iced teas from McD's and maybe a couple of Starbucks cappucinos and forgotten about what I got with that money in two minutes.

It didn't matter to me what he'd do with the money, if he's going to buy crack, let him use it to forget his life for 5 minutes. It doesn't change the karma either way.

Kim

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dwmte says on Dec 4, 2004, 12:51:

YOU GOT IT, KIM that's the right angle of view. in fact, with that in mind, i'm off to the cabinet to pour me a rum and coke. i hate to confess, but if i was back in los llanos, i'd have the rum (ron) with a water back and have the coke in a line, thank you.

happy holidays,

dw

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