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Strata & Class Comment from a Colombian Woman

I am sharing these comments that came from a (personal friend) "world class" professional Colombian woman executive attorney/banker that is employed in europe by one of the largest banks in the world (in response to an inquiry from me). The names have been changed to protect the innocent. jajaja. I thought that her comments gave a lot of insight into the challenges of the strata and class system in Colombia.

QUOTE:

"At least you learned your lesson.........certain matters don't mix.....

Now, I must tell you something: it is not so simple, as expected. Let's go in order (bullet points as expected from a banker):

1. You are right. True transition from one strata to the other is extremely difficult as strata is a twofold condition: monetary and psychological.

2. The struggle issue is a defensive mechanism. Protects her from becoming dependant on somebody else and therefore from being controlled by somebody else. That is a women thing. The formula is simple: you (as a woman) allow somebody to "take care of you" and the result is: you will depend on somebody for everything, you will have no decision power at all, even for the simplest things, and the worst of all evils: you will not be respected because you will be perceived as somebody who cannot support herself. This is the ever lasting dilemma for women. You let somebody "take care of you"and you would have sold your soul. To make things worse, in this case, where the woman comes from a social class where women are underestimated as a principle, she would rather shoot herself than give in. Believe me, this is reality, I have seen it at all levels. Remember, I'm surrounded by men, and I hear their comments about the wife that is clueless, that doesn't work, that does nothing, that spends all his salary, etc, etc, etc. It is not as bad here, but in NY it was truly unbelievable...ah.....the things I heard. Life is tough for women, believe me, even for tough cookies like me. We have to spend half of our time working twice as hard than men to accomplish the same than you do, and the other half we spend protecting ourselves from those who insist that we shouldn't be where we are, and yet another half trying to live a balanced life. So, yes, we live full time and a half, so on top of we are tired all the time! Plus, for tough cookies is worse: we are a highly desired "prize" but at the same time a feared and resented competitor........nice ah? wanna switch?

3. I think "Colombian Jane Doe" has been through too much. Maybe the best for her is to find somebody at a level slightly higher than her, who will would appreciate her contribution for what it is and not make her feel different but equal and competent. Not your fault.

4. Classes: difficult subject. I think there is evil in the concept, but when I see the effect of socialism in society (here) I very much prefer the evil of classism and capitalism. At least it motivates struggle and self improvement! and yes you are right, it takes more than money to move up the ladder. It's a matter of attitude. It's a mental estate more than anything else. And it requires a lot of courage. That is precisely the reason why Colombia, with all the resources it has, cannot move up in the macroeconomic ladder: the people do not have the mental attitude to climb into a more successful environment. Compare with Japan, Korea, Singapore.....

5. What you need: this doctor says you need a middle aged woman who has had a comfortable life (not necessarily luxurious) and with no professional ambitions (either done with them or indifferent to the subject). Therefore, she will not have the urge to fight for an independent role. She will be over that stage (she must have her own savings so she is safe with or without you). Hopefully a divorcee or a widow (so she knows the drill). You should be able to find one of those in Medellin within the social circle of your local friends.

By viewpoint on Aug 23, 2005, 07:38 in Friendly Talkzone. AddThis Social Bookmark Button

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Peter (Moderator) (Trustee board) (Dev team) (☼Travelguide writer) says on May 20, 2003, 21:00:

Pobre man Senor Red Star.




I feel your pain. Your craving for attention is overwhelming. Let me again remind readers that you are more to be pitied than censured. I know your lack of self esteem and need for attention has driven you to seeking attention from others even if it is negative attention. Like the child who misbehaves so that his mother will at least notice him.




So I want all of the Readers of this forum to write and encourage you to write more so that you can spill out all of your venom and thus feel better about yourself.




I for one want to state that I feel your pain at your low self esteem. I know that you probably recieved poor potty training and thus have resorted to playing with your fece by writting it here.




Lets all be supportive of Senor Red Star and hope that he gets to feeling better about himself soon. Remember it not his fault that he is the way he is it is the fault of his parents wo did nothing to build up his self esteem.




Senor Red Star I hope that someday that you can forgive your parents for the terrible way that they treated you.

Poor but snappy

0 funny, 0 helpful.

adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 23, 2005, 11:02:

Interesting Re item 4.

My mother;s comment on having less socialised system in Colombia is also that it encourages people to strive to survive and move up. I think that from a financial perspective it has merit (becuase terrible abuse of social systems occur), however a net is still neccessary for with genuine needs like the disabled, single mom's etc.

But I am surprised she does not make distinction between cultural attitudes and policies. Much of the socialism in Europe is a policy thing (which I concede may have some influence on attitudes). But what disturbs me in Colombia's "classes" , is not so much the lack of social aid, but the attitudes that are held.

Are you sure you want to leave that last point in? Seems like it is personal advice directed to you.

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viewpoint says on Aug 23, 2005, 11:54:

Adrimm Your observation about the last item (item 5) is correct and I should have not included the doctor's prescription. I tried to delete it about I am unable to edit an original post.

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caslug says on Aug 23, 2005, 13:36:

good observation by your friend.. kinda of stuff i suspected all along..but this is a problem(for women) in most developing country. so it's not all unique to col.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 23, 2005, 15:41:

I read your friend's comments a couple of times. Very interesting woman. I bet it is tough for her to find a suitable man.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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cam0940 says on Aug 23, 2005, 17:01:

Something just doesn't sound right... If a woman fiercely defends her financial independence, so that she doesn't have to depend on a man, is that to say a man should only choose to partner with women of equal or greater means? They are really opposite sides of the same coin, aren't they? Being dependent on a spouse should not automatically equal being controlled by that provider, whether it's the male or the female. If it does, the relationship has other, deeper problems and we should probably have examined the character of our partner a little better before we married them in the first place.

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viewpoint says on Aug 23, 2005, 17:59:

cam0940 QUOTE:

"If a woman fiercely defends her financial independence, so that she doesn't have to depend on a man, is that to say a man should only choose to partner with women of equal or greater means? They are really opposite sides of the same coin, aren't they? Being dependent on a spouse should not automatically equal being controlled by that provider, whether it's the male or the female. If it does, the relationship has other, deeper problems and we should probably have examined the character of our partner a little better before we married them in the first place."

It is healthy, normal and good for a woman to want to attain her own financial independence as security for her families future as men come and go in their lives leaving them and sometimes the children to fend for themselves. Marrying any man (much less a foreign man) is no security for a womans future as 50% or more of every marriage ends in divorce and probably 70% of every inter-cultural marriage ends in divorce (my guess).

I remember how insistant my father was that my two sisters obtain a college education so that (in his words) they would never have to depend upon a man to support them. Well he was a good judge of that as he had been raised by his norwegian mother (my grandmother) as a single parent for almost all of his childhood who used her education skills to provide the sole support for her household for all the remaining years of her life. My father never wanted his daughters to be financially dependent upon a man and they were not.

Sure character is important but so are someones dreams and no one wants to exist being dependent upon another person never being able to realize their own dreams and ambitions. Marrying someone is an event but no a guarantee of the future outcome and success of the relationship. Finding the right person is not as simple as matching up balance sheets I only wish it was but common goals and understanding are important.

Finding someone from the same social and economic level as you are (or want to be) might help assure a more compatable relationship.

I have spent all my adult life trying to figure all of this out and not too successfully. jajaja All I can say is that you are not going to find a Colombian woman (or a man) that gives up their dreams and goals for money gracias. They take pride in the sruggle of making it happen for themselves as their family did.

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cam0940 says on Aug 23, 2005, 18:20:

Your points are well taken. Again, this goes back to the character issue. The specific fear you mentioned is a woman being left to fend for herself and the futures of her children. Your father certainly had real life experience with this. I think men that leave their wives and children are just the lowest of the low. Once you get married and have children, you're making a commitment. To leave her then, to me it seems there's a character problem. I think a real man would stand by the decision he made to get married and start a family. That's just me talking. In the real world, I must admit that men do leave sometimes. When we see it happen around us, especially in our own family tree, it makes it harder to have the right kind of security in the relationship and maybe it causes women to start thinking about Plan B (e.g. ensure that she can survive without the guy if he disappears one day). Just a sad sad reality and further evidence of moral decay. But you see, I know myself. I know that if I commit to be a father and husband I'm in it to win it, except in the case of infidelity. I would never leave my family. In the US divorce rates are around 50% (we're not the most moral society). But interestingly enough, five years after divorce, only 50% of individuals say they are happier afterward than they were in the original marriage. So a significant number of marriages end just because the grass looked greener on the other side at the time. My dad used to say if you water your own grass it can be just as green. If too many people lose sight of that, then I guess the fears you mentioned can be justified. But in my relationship, my fiancee only has to work as a diversion, not as a means to support herself in the event I bail on her. She knows that, and it's just very comfortable for us.

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cam0940 says on Aug 23, 2005, 18:25:

Hmmm...death. The widow is an entirely different case from the divorcee. Assuming you are, as a man, going to be the sole provider, that means not only current wages and income, it means estate planning and life insurance as well. It's morbid talk--nobody likes to plan what would happen if they died. But it's part of the responsibility if in your relationship you are the sole breadwinner. Again, I think a lot of it is about who you are as a man.

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cam0940 says on Aug 23, 2005, 18:30:

Finally, My point was never to say that women should not pursue careers or that they should man the fort while the husband is working. No no no. Whatever rocks your boat. I was just talking about the fears that lead her into the workforce. If it's for a sense of achievement, diversion, fulfillment, even money in the right context, then that's fine. But as a defense mechanism in case of divorce, maybe these two shouldn't be married in the first place. Marriage isn't about "well let's just see how this goes for as long as we can stand each other". You see? If that's where the couple is at emotionally, then they're better off to not get married at all.

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viewpoint says on Aug 23, 2005, 18:36:

cam0940 Speaking of death as another example a local man that worked for an oil refinery married woman from Cali with two children and brought them here. The woman ultimately did get her legal US residency but not long after that her husband comitted suicide (or was killed) leaving his Colombian wife and her children with no long term support (in place). To make things more difficult she spoke very little english and had no employment skills. The refinery and friends have provided some economic and housing assistance but nothing lasts forever. My GF talked to her recently and she has never been able to find work and her english skills are not good however her children speak fluent english.

I understand what you are saying but no one of us would marry unless we were certain our marriage will succeed and last forever, however, more than 50% of us are wrong and some of the remaining ones suffer with their decision for the rest of their life. jajaja

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cam0940 says on Aug 23, 2005, 19:37:

Believe it or not adrimm You can fathom divorce at that stage. You can fathom divorce in your own beliefs about the subject. Remember divorce is a choice. No one forces anyone to file a petition for divorce. If it's part of who you are, then it's just something you refuse to do. In my case, I choose not to do it except in the case of infidelity. The reality is that in any romantic relationship, if you've made it that far, there are only a handful of potential dealbreakers. All the little stuff is negotiable. Similar to abortion. There are women who simply will not abort a fetus, even if it was an accident. Because they just don't believe in that. It could have been some scandalous indescretion after a party one night with some guy she barely even knows, but if she gets pregnant, she's keeping the baby. There are women that just simply don't believe in abortion. Then there are those that would only abort in the case of rape. Then there are those who use abortion as birth control. This all comes from their beliefs about the subject. Similarly, there are people who just don't believe in divorce, and when you have two people like that, they will do what they have to do to correct whatever hiccups the relationship has before it gets out of hand.

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Sylvie says on Aug 23, 2005, 21:47:

Viewpoint Your friend seems to be very intelligent. Her and I seem to be in similar situations.

"Plus, for tough cookies is worse: we are a highly desired "prize" but at the same time a feared and resented competitor........nice ah? wanna switch?"

She is an intelligent tough cookie so that makes for two obstacles when meeting guys because those characteristics makes some guys scared. But from what I've witnessed it is the non-educated and dim guys that are scared of the successful tough cookies. It's best for her and women like her to find a nice intelligent and emotionally secure guy. There are some out there and they're great :-D

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Albatross says on Aug 24, 2005, 04:26:

Yeah, Right. The stupiditiy of comment #5 undermines everything before it.
She is just another middle-aged women with an agenda...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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ws244 says on Aug 24, 2005, 08:11:

alba Not only that, but 30 years ago there were the same young liberated women who were saying the same identical things as these women posters today. They hated men at 29 and 30 years later they still hate men, the only difference now is they are old, gray, hate men even more, single, and no one pays them any attention even with their good retirement, new car, new house, etc. etc. Yes us old men could care less about them and still go to Colombia. Yes the gloria steinams of the past reborn to the present.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 08:22:

It's fear guys.. They've already told us that the fear of ending up alone with kids and no way to provide for themselves is what fuels this need to be financially independent. They don't feel secure in the relationship, so the career is a backup plan. Plan B. That's worth study in and of itself. But the real kicker is that they come back and say that any man that questions her having this Plan B is HIMSELF insecure and HE'S the problem.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 08:42:

But to repeat an earlier concession... Sometimes slugs to leave their wives and kids for horrible reasons and they leave them in very dire financial straits. Seeing that happen to a loved one, friend, whatever, can cause the fears these posters talked about. I'll concede that. But it's still an insecurity, emotional baggage, that she is bringing to the new relationship. If you really do have a good guy he's not going to do that to you. But this militant attitude of "I'm not going to depend on you", the good guy might say "Well, wait a minute, what's the problem, you don't trust me that I meant my vows?" and now he's insecure too. I will also repeat that if she wants to go out and fulfill herself, see what she's capable of, that's one thing. But if the core purpose is that she wants financial independence because she doesn't trust that her husband will be there for her, then clearly THAT's the problem.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 24, 2005, 11:15:

It's tough to find a balance... ...and the balance seems to be a delicate one at that. The balance between being dependent and independent at the same time.

In a relationship, you need to have some dependence or inter-dependence on each other or you're not much more than roommates. At the same time, it's healthy to retain your independent sense of self and not draw too much financial or emotional identity or support from the other so as to become "hung-out-to-dry" should things fall apart. It's a tricky balance.

One problem I've seen with some independent women, is they don't know when to stop being independent. While being smart, intellegent, and financialy independent may be attractive to some, it's a real turn-off when that independence is constantly used to beat the other partner over the head. (as in "Look, I'm independent! I don't really need you!") This, by the way, applies to either partner, be they male of female.

Few men want to be with a woman who constantly feels the need to demonstrate or prove how independent she is. And a man who does, is not someone an independent woman would want to be with (for more than an evening, anyway).

Since men are, by and large, programmed to be the breadwinner in a relationship (for whatever reason), the financial means of a woman is not a big attraction. After all, the man already has a job and/or money. The woman can have money and/or a good job, but she still needs to bring other things to the relationship (love, affection, good looks, or whatever her potential partner is looking for).

If the fiancial means of a woman is important to a man, he's probably a loser looking for someone to bankroll his laziness. Not too many successful, independent women are going to find that attractive (unless they are just looking for a trophy husband, of course).

Bottom line, for a woman, being independent is good for a relationship, but only if she can also be dependent. Otherwise, she'll end up staying independent (i.e. alone).

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poco says on Aug 24, 2005, 11:40:

Another way The “strata” is typical of all countries. Rich – Poor. Only the percentages change depending on the country. Some (India) have a more rigid system toward strata AND womens status in their culture.

Colombia is in a higher percentile of comparable countries for womens rights and opportunities. Maybe in the top 5%. ??

Quotes were from a woman in Europe. Colombia is MUCH different. It is difficult to devote time and resources to DRAIN THE SWAMP when you are UP TO YOUR ASS in alligators.

Laws in Colombia and the U.S. are designed to guarantee equal rights for women. Still there are groups such as the Amish or in lesser percentages Mormons who consistently violate these laws. Inroads into these “problems” slowly “modify” the group culture. This is difficult and the U.S. has more laws than people.

Can’t fix the problem through the courts in the U.S.,,, No problem,,, file a civil suit and they may find their next shelter to be a bridge underpass.

The posted topic indicates the “executive” had a way out,

Most, men and women can not achieve the same privileged position. Who can blame them to seek another avenue? Currently, a woman’s situation is MUCH better than men. Not fair?

Good story, many pages. Another Avenue

Many men are very unhappy with their local women. This is particularly true in the USA, Canada, Australia, The UK and New Zealand. It's not that they want some meek submissive little thing they can lead around by the nose.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 11:42:

Bravo C4C Well written and I agree 100%.

WS244, using the term "liberated woman" is kind of hurting us as men. It implies that women were enslaved before, less than an equal citizen. That suggestion justifiably annoys women and closes ears to great posts like the one Crazy4Cali just wrote.

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 24, 2005, 11:53:

Crazy4Cali It *is* a very delicate balance, I agree 100%, and your post raiised some good and true points.

More thoughts:
"Bottom line, for a woman, being independent is good for a relationship, but only if she can also be dependent. Otherwise, she'll end up staying independent (i.e. alone)."

If you mean by emotional dependence then the same can be said for men. IMHO neither men nor women want an emotionally detached spouse who is an island unto themselves.

As for financial dependence/independence, if each partner is financially secure then they both know that the other isn't it for the money, and it is one indicator (assigned differing levels of significance within society) that they are survivors.

300 years ago survivor skills might have been sewing skills for a woman and tree-cutting/farming skills for a man, and these days it is still ability to bring something in, but in a world of specialists, currency driven society, and smaller families, ability to earn is one of the few remaining skills to contribute.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 12:02:

I see where you're coming from.. But I don't know. You have to respect the homemaker. That's a big contribution. Unfortunately it's not valued in dollars and cents. Let's say hypothetically, she really does cook and clean, which is a stereotypical summary of the wife that stays at home. Well, the family eats better don't they? Things are organized, bills are paid, all those errands and crap that needs to be done, you've got one teammate dedicated to doing it. And the other teammate is financing it through the crap he goes through at work. Let's face it, the world is a tough place. Running the home is a war and the corporate world is a war. Dividing it all up can be an extremely functional situation, so we shouldn't automatically discount it. As far as emotional dependence, you're absolutely right. Men generally don't get defensive at the idea of depending on their wife. That is a good and natural and even a beautiful thing.

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ws244 says on Aug 24, 2005, 12:09:

liberated Well i understand your direction, However at 59 i recall 35-40 years ago they were being called liberated women, and by the same name before they had the right to vote in U.S. national elections in 1920. If you can come up with a better term i salute your effort, as long as we do not reduce it for the benefit of political correctness and equality.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 12:19:

Independent These days they seem to use the word "independent". Of course, there's problems with that word too; somewhere along the line it became taboo to need your life companion.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 24, 2005, 12:34:

I've never needed to be labelled anything...can't call myself "liberated" because I've never been enslaved, can't call myself "independent" because nobody ever is totally independent in every sense of the word, can't call myself "feminist" because I never needed to fight that battle, can't call myself "modern" because I don't even know what that word really means. I might just have been lucky: the men around me have always considered women as their equal.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 24, 2005, 12:37:

IMO To say "being a housewife" is undervalued is overlooking some things. OK, so the husband doesn't fork over a 6-figure paycheck to his housewife, that "undervalued" housewife is still reaping the benefits of the husband's work. She'd driving the minivan his salary provides, living in the house his salary provides, etc. These (bogus, IMO) surveys that say a housewife's job is worth [insert your dollar figure here] may be accurate, but they fail to deduct the housewives "non-monetary" compensation such as 1/2 the rent, utilities, mini-van lease, etc.

That said, and as pointed out above, while the wife is benefiting from the husband's work, the husband is also benefiting from the wife's work. If this is a mutually agreeable arrangement, then who's to complain?

Where it can break down is when one person feels (rightly or wrongly) they are pulling more than their "fair" share of the load. Ironically, when this happens, BOTH people feel they are pulling more than their fair share which makes it difficult to resolve. This can happen when one person doesn't appreciate what the other is doing. I know how this can happen from personal experience: my ex-wife falls into that category by saying I only did "one thing", i.e. go to work while she had a long list of her tasks...at the same time I underrated the job of raising kids...until I got full custody of them. I can't speak for her, but my attitude was adjusted!

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 24, 2005, 13:22:

C4C If your compensation rule is true then that is to say then that the financial worth of what a domestic spouse does is only worth 1/2 of the living expenses, yet to be above the poverty line living expenses should be 60-70% of income (shelter =30%, other needs = 30-40%, rest is disposable). If the earner were to pay the domestic spouse that portion of income 1/2 which is of living expenses then the monetary value of the domestic spouse's compensation is 30-35% of the earner's income. (Earner earns 100%, living costs %70 percent, domestic spouse gets 1/2 of living expenses, = 35%).

I doubt that either partner in a couple would feel comfortable saying that a stay at home spouse's contribution to a partnership is only worth 35% of the other spouses earnings. That's the same or less than what an employee that drives an employer's car or one works in an office leased by an employer might earn. People I know largely value their spouse more than that.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 13:35:

I agree with adrimm that trying to value the homemaker's contribution in terms of dollars and cents is a hopeless effort. You're married. So look, this is what the family earns (regardless of who's actually working the job), this is what the family's obligations are, and this is what we have left over.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 24, 2005, 14:13:

I think the real point is... If you in a relationship and comparing each other's worth and contribution, you might as well involve the lawyers at that point and make it official, because the love in the relationship is long gone. Either sign an employment contract, which could be trouble if you still want sex since that would become an act of prostitution, or just get a divorce.

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ws244 says on Aug 24, 2005, 14:28:

crz4 All the reason to catch a boat to Colombia so as not to listen to their rantings. Those of us sexist dirty old men, married, divorced, with grown kids, having had to put up with their type of nonsense for years, can now finally have peace with a Colombian wife. Of course the ex wives we left behind still resent us, even when we are buried they will still resent us..

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kernow62 says on Aug 24, 2005, 14:36:

You are going to have peace with a Colombian wife, ha ha. You don't know what you are getting yourself in to. Perhaps a piece, but peace... I am not so sure.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 24, 2005, 14:42:

I really don't care where they are from... ...and I would actually rather they were more independent than dependent. But the in-your-face "Outta my way! I can get it myself!" followed by "Why don't you ever do anything nice for me" is maddening.

This is not to say ALL women are like that, just those who are, drive me crazy (in a bad way).

Male or female, I find intellegence and independence very attractive (though in different ways, of course, being a dyed-in-the-wool hetero male). Male or female, I find people who constantly feel the need to "prove" things rather boring and annoying. Many, though, of course not all, so-called "independent" women fall in to the latter category as if they might lose all their independence if they show the least little bit of vulnerability.

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ws244 says on Aug 24, 2005, 15:28:

k62 Offered a picture. Also at 59 and she at 45 changes the dynamics. Old men do not go to war, they just sit back and watch the young go, kind of a heritage thing.

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Sylvie says on Aug 24, 2005, 18:08:

I think some men (or more like boys) feel threatened by the fact that they're being replaced in the lives of women by careers. Lets face it, women today don't need men like they did back in the 70s 60s and so on. Back then it was difficult for women to get well paying jobs and it was not socially accpted that they go to univeristy.
Luckily today, women are able to have money, house, social lives, and children without men. I think some guys are threatened by that because they're affraid of not being needed.

I say leave those types of men to the lazy women who wont bother lifting a finger to earn money. Let them sit around the house all day and get lonely and realize how much their lives suck when they have to ask permission to buy a new purse. :-D

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BAQ says on Aug 24, 2005, 18:29:

OK, Explain this Ok, I have read with great interest the posts on this thread. Now my QUESTION is directed at COLOMBIAN WOMEN, PLEASE.

I am American, my wife Colombian. I am retired and get a pension. I Have talked to her until I am blue in the face regarding MONEY. I have tried to explain to her that my pension is OUR money, NOT MY MONEY, yet she has a hard time accepting the fact that it is OUR money. I might also mention she does work (she is a professor) so she is well educated. Same with our home. Since I paid for it, she calls it "My home" NOT "Our home".

So here is my question, have Colombian women just been beaten down over the years by the MACHISMO men in Colombia to the point that this attitude is cultural? I have always worked under the assumtion that a marriage is a patnership and what is mine is your and yours is mine ect. So if this IS a cultural thing, any suggestions how to counter this attitude?

Semper Fidelis !

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 24, 2005, 18:52:

"Back Then" "70s 60s and so on. Back then it was difficult for women to get well paying jobs and it was not socially accpted that they go to univeristy."

I beg to differ on the socially acceptable part. My mother has a huge crowd of girl classmates and roomates who studied biochemistry and pharmacy with her in the 1960s in Colombia. No there weren't equal numbers of guys & girls, but no one in my mothers family and extended family batted an eye. Here at home, I also know quite a few women who are nearing retirement age that went to uni. I spent some time working in the fundraising office at my university and I did get to chat with a surprsing number of women in the 60-76 yr old set who'd gone to my uni.

I'd say a woman getting post-secondary (aside from normal school, shorhand school, or nursing school), would have been considered surprising/daring (rather than unnaceptable), as far back as the 30s, or maybe even further back. Even then, society already knew of people like Marie Curie.

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kernow62 says on Aug 24, 2005, 19:09:

BAQ, I am not a woman and not Colombian, but I have been married to one for 11 years and was with my ex for a long time, also Colombian. They both had no problem with the concept that my money was their money, none whatsoever. You must have married an angel.

My in-laws have seperate bank accounts which I find a bit odd, of course they also have seperate beds which I also find odd.

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BAQ says on Aug 24, 2005, 21:50:

It is frustrating Yes, it is frustrating. We purchased our house together, picked it out together and signed the papers together. YES, I consider my wife an angel, they don;t come any sweeter. Thanks for the replies, I was just curious. Only reason it bothers me is that I don;t ever want my wife thinking she is being held hostage due to the largest part of our income being "My money". I have seen others use money as a form of "Control" over another person and I would never want my wife to feel that way.

Semper Fidelis !

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ws244 says on Aug 24, 2005, 21:58:

old ladies It is not surprising the only women on this site in these type of liberation postings are women who were not even born yet in the seventies, or at best were little children. Why not have some 50 Plus and 60 year old women posting who think they had / have some real axes to grind instead of second hand " what mom, aunt sally, or the 60 year old secretary in the corner told me".

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Sylvie says on Aug 24, 2005, 22:38:

adrimm I see what you mean but when I said "unaccepted" I meant it was "less socially accepted" than today. For example, when my mother decided to go to university instead of getting married right out of highschool my grandparents feared that there was something wrong with her. They were also afraid that "the neighbors" would think there was something wrong with her for wanting to continue school instead of getting married and becoming a housewife. She was actually the first woman in her family to ever finish highschool and go to University. From what she told me, she was one of only 8 girls that graduated in business.

And now that I think about it I have yet to have a female professor at the post graduate level here in Montreal. Maybe it is just a coincidence but I’m looking at the school directory and there aren’t many female professors at all except in the Arts and Science department. And although it may sound strange it is quite possible that the women of Colombia in the 60s and 70s were more "liberated" like your mom and her classmates because I've met a number of older Colombian women doctors and dentists.

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Sylvie says on Aug 24, 2005, 22:40:

WS244 I'd really like to know what you're scared of. I get the feeling that if there weren't any traditional ladies left in the world you'd be single.

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cam0940 says on Aug 24, 2005, 22:54:

Silvie Silvie Silvie You don't really believe that, do you sweetheart? It's obscenely unfair to call a homemaker lazy simply because her contributions to the home don't involve a W-2. Secondly, no man feels threatened by being replaced by careers. We can just get another girl who prioritizes differently. If your job is more important to you than your relationship, well there's a type of guy for that. He's called a eunuch. And you are entitled to that. I thank God my girlfriend has balance, and she knows she can go to school if she wants, she can work if she wants, but if not it doesn't mean she has to ask permission to buy a purse. She goes to the mall and buys it. Major purchases are a different story. If you have a problem discussing major purchases with your spouse, and you want to have your own career so you can spend your earnings on whatever you want, then maybe marriage isn't for you. No man will ever marry you if your attitude is "Screw you, I can do whatever I want to do." Except of course, the eunuch. This is not "feeling threatened", this is men exercising their free choice to build relationships with women that are about partnership, not competition. I mean really, if we aren't doing things together, then why exactly are we married in the first place? If you don't need me, don't want to need me, then honestly, in your opinion what is the point to getting married?

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Sylvie says on Aug 24, 2005, 23:07:

"No man will ever marry you if your attitude is "Screw you, I can do whatever I want to do." "

Whoever said that? I certainly didn't.

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Albatross says on Aug 25, 2005, 04:10:

Reality Check "women are able to have money, house, social lives, and children without men"

Apparently, Sylvie is ignorant concerning the basic facts of biology and procreation among other things.

Women don’t build houses, men do.

Most women work for and with men so to say that women don’t need men for money is ridiculous.

Also the vast majority of the comforts that women so dearly love from dishwashers and microwave ovens to TV's and cell phones were invented, designed and manufactured primarily by men. In fact almost all Art, Science and Technology throughout human history can be attributed to men

And sorry Sylvie, men are just as necessary as women to bear children.

“Liberated” women just like to fantasize that they are independent and don’t need men. But if it weren’t for their role in the procreation of the species (and men’s desire for them), women would have died out a long, long time ago...

Fortunately, there are many women south of the border who are less delusional.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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cam0940 says on Aug 25, 2005, 04:10:

Of course you didn't, literally say that, but that is what many men hear. It works both ways. I'd speculate that when you hear that the husband is fine sharing whatever earnings he makes with the wife, what you hear is that she's going to be home all day eating bon bons and asking for permission to buy purses, but that is also false. Somehow, someway, when men say one thing women hear another and vice versa. Resolving that is beyond me.

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kernow62 says on Aug 25, 2005, 05:54:

Albatross many of the things you mention while true, are true because of a male dominatd society. If there were equal numbers of women in the fields from which those discoveries or inventions came then I would bet that a good proportion of those discoveries would be attributed to women. Look at compsers, they are all men, but that is because women weren't allowed to be in this field, the same with classical art, classic works of literature. These fields only opened up begrudgingly to women in the Victorian era when well-to-do women began to "dabble" in the arts as a diversion. So much of that argument you put forth while fundementally based on truths, falls apart under closer scrutiny.

I think you are going to start seeing more and more contributions to engineering and other traditionally male dominated fields in the future. I have no problem with that.

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Albatross says on Aug 25, 2005, 07:51:

True But... I don’t disagree with you; it certainly is true that women were held back in many endeavors throughout history. But history is not “what should have happened”, but what did. Aristotle, Newton, Shakespeare, Rembrandt, Dickens, Einstein, The Wright Brothers, Edison, Bardeen, Shockley, and Brattain (Inventors of the Transistor), Jobs (Apple Computers)... were men.

CAUTION: Generalizations Ahead...

I’m not suggesting that women are less intelligent than men, but they seem to be less curious to venture into the unknown. They seem content to let men forge ahead while they follow along after the way is clear. I'm an Airframe Engineer and I can count on one hand the number of competent female engineers I've met. Most end up in human resourses, marketing, finance or some other less demanding position. (However they do seem to fare better in IS and Software Development for some reason.)

As far as women in the future are concerned... we'll see.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Sylvie says on Aug 25, 2005, 12:03:

Albatross, all the things you've mentioned can be bought. What I meant is that women can have careers, social lives and kids without husbands.

If any woman wants to have children they can easily just pay for artificial insemination.

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Albatross says on Aug 25, 2005, 12:17:

Yes Of course they can...

Also, in my opinion, artificial insemenation (which still requires a man) is child abuse. The least society owes children is for them to be born with a mother and father who are committed to each other and their child. Any woman (or man) who desires to concieve and raise a child alone is only proving how selfish they are. If a single person (or gay couple) wants to raise a child, they should adopt.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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kernow62 says on Aug 25, 2005, 13:13:

I agree that adoption is an option, but what about those women who want a child that is genetically theirs? Surely you don't think that is selfish. I think one of the problems with adoption is the high cost, if the prices were reasonable there would be a lot less children waiting to be adopted. They should actually pay people who adopt, but that could lead to abuses where people adopt just for the money.

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 25, 2005, 13:16:

Yep well see the thing is while women working has become more common, house-husbands have not (nearly as much). That means that while mom is juggling work she's also wondering about the domestic stuff. Yes husband helping helps, but when push comes to shove the domestic domain still remains largely the woman's responsability .

Working till 9 pm, having business trips/conferences galore is just not doable for many women with families. Women's priorities most often do get split if the couple chooses to have a family.

I surmise that when househusbands become as common as housewives then you'll really see the powerhouse women.

I have a friend in the middle of this. She has a Masters and is married with a young child. She was offered a very lucrative position managing portions of reseacrch for a mulitnational. The job would have involved generous compensation and great responsabilities, as well as alot of travelling and likely at least 2 transfers within 5 years if she'd stuck with it. She couldn't take it becuase she had her husband have planned to have another child within the time frame and she wouldn't be able to give that kind of commitment. Instead she took a fairly boring regular hours job with less responsability and greater flexibility.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 25, 2005, 13:28:

So you can't have it all.. Boo...Hooo.... Give me a freakin' break!

Adrimn has a well educated, intellegent friend who had to make some tradeoffs. Like that is unique to a working woman?! I don't see the problem... Your friend and her husband planned to have kids and decided to make that their priority. Presumably, they looked at all the options (woman works/husband stays home, both work, nanny stays home, etc. and elected to forgo the money for family.

I don't see the problem.

Life is full of choices. Personally, I think your friend should be applauded for choosing family over career. I also think that in 20 years she will be thankful to have a close family over joint custody.

I'd say the same if your friend was a man, too. But to cite that as a "woman's sacrifice" or to imply if she was a man, she wouldn't have to give it a second thought is absurd.

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cam0940 says on Aug 25, 2005, 13:52:

Close vamily vs joint custody That was classic.

It might be appropriate to quote Dr. Gary Clark here, writing on feminists:

"Today, many women want to pursue careers, or even seek positions of power. If women wish to follow such a path they should be permitted to do so. In doing so, however, they are choosing to travel a road that, by its very nature, results in their becoming undesirable or even unacceptable as wives to a large number of men. Everything has its price. Most of the feminists who howl the loudest in protest of foreign brides (sic) do so because they are unwilling to accept an outcome which results from their own making. They have made their beds.

Let them lie in them...alone."

I don't necessarily think the pursuit of a career, in and of itself, produces this outcome. But when that career becomes a higher priority than your spouse or your family, it's only a matter of time before you're dividing up weekends and holidays.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 25, 2005, 14:07:

Yup, Been There. Done That. WRT: "...when that career becomes a higher priority than your spouse or your family, it's only a matter of time before you're dividing up weekends and holidays."

You got that right....and I'm a man.

The only difference between me and the feminists to which you refer is that I'm not whining. I made my choice, I've given up and turned down the high-paying jobs with lucrative futures. But I know what the "real" costs are to the options and prefer to lose money for the sake of my family than lose my family (again) for the sake of money.

But, I'm cool with that, hence I don't get it when I hear all this "Why can't I have a high paying job and a full-time family, etc. etc." Well, it's the same reason you can't fit 6-cars in your 2-car garage. Wake up and do the math.

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ws244 says on Aug 25, 2005, 14:56:

alaba Women make better grades in school than men. Women also do better then men in intricate assembly line fabrication, as they by nature are more detailed oriented. The difference being, women get around a table trying to make decisions to please everyone, and the men who are men forget all the niceties, forge ahead and just get it done.

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ws244 says on Aug 25, 2005, 15:24:

boring job Most married working men do not care to clean house, cook, wash clothes, take care of kids, etc. etc. and would just hire a nanny and maid. The problem is the working wife rather than hire a nanny and maid demands the man do 50% of everything. It has nothing to do with money, but everything to do with her not only being head of the household, but her demands to being head of the family as well.

Well once again she has a boring job and less responsibility.
Of course the reason for all of this is because
she has a kid
she and her husband planned to have another kid
This is a typical feminists thinking to never look in the mirror and admit to anything about personal responsibility, just blame it on everyone else. (the man of course)

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 25, 2005, 15:30:

SOME women and SOME men, sure. But gross generalizations don't really apply in the "women and career" discussion.

On the other hand, I agree with ws244's point about the nanny/maid issue.

The problem seems to always come back to trying to do too much and/or not working things out with your partner. Either one is trouble. Both are a disaster.

There's frequently a cry among working women that they have it tough. OK, if it's so tough, give something up. What'll it be? your family? your job? your standard of living? your sanity? Pick one and don't whine about it because neither men nor women have a "god-given" right to have it all. Men have to give things up all the time to keep the family going.

If your partner won't support or agree with your choice, then you've either made the wrong choice or you're with the wrong partner. So, again, what'll it be?

Being independent is all well and good when you have only yourself to look after, but being solely or even jointly responsible for others is a lot of stress. Stress that is, in part, due to the fact the life expectency of men is shorter than women. Why someone would want to fight for a lifestyle that shortens your life is anyone's guess, but, hey, it's a free country.

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Rubiazo says on Aug 25, 2005, 15:36:

FWIW From what Ive read and heard, if anything men are more conservative than women, more prone to the group mentality, and LESS willing to take risks. I think if we had a lot more female CEOs we´d see a lot more risk-taking from big companies, and a lot more progressive thinking and action.

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