Spanish question

Albatross says on Jan 25, 2008, 11:10:

I'm no expert (I suck at Spanish), but I think you're correct.
I think the only true grammatical difference is that Spain uses the Vosotros verb forms and Latin America doesn't.
As you said, the other differences are all accent, slang, jargon, ect.
(I've also been learning lately that there are quite a few verb tenses that are seldom used in actual conversation.)

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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MaFe says on Jan 25, 2008, 11:39:

THANK YOU!! That is what I was telling my coworker but she insists that it is different dialects...I love languages so I thought I ask others before I insist on my bias opinion...

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:10:

Mononoke28 says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:23:

Oh my gosh, I cannot even count how many times I've had to clarify people on this. There is no such thing as a Spanish dialect, there is only one language which is Spanish, period. Now depending on the county and even region, people will call things differently. Ex.: In Mexico a jacket is called a chamarra, in Colombia we call it chaqueta. A strawberry in Argentina and Ecuador is a frutilla, in Colombia we call it fresa. But we all speak one language.

Same thing in English. Some people in the US call one thing with one name and the people in England will call it something else but it's still English.

Diana

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:32:

Any certified linguists here to confirm this?
I have always called local variaities of a language, any language, dialects. I believe they are also called vernacular. There are lots and lots of dialects within the English language, the same within Spanish. A dialect is NOT another language, it's a variation of the same language, only that is spoken locally.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:36:

"dialecto - Manera de hablar una lengua un grupo de personas, una comunidad o los habitantes de una región. Así, por ejemplo, el habla de la ciudad de México, el habla del Bajío y el habla de Castilla son dialectos del español. (Diccionario del Español Usual de México)"
http://www.sil.org/capacitar/sociolx/lenguadialecto.htm

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MaFe says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:43:

So I would like to know because my coworker still insists that I am wrong, and another coworker is looking up stuff on the internet and they insist they are dialects...

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:49:

I tend to think that they are indeed dialects.


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List of dialects and varieties

[edit] Spain
Andalusian Spanish
Canarian Spanish
Extremaduran
Murcian Spanish

[edit] The Americas
Caribbean Spanish
Cuban Spanish
Dominican Spanish
Puerto Rican Spanish
Venezuelan Spanish
Central American Spanish
Chilean Spanish
Chilote Spanish
Colombian Spanish
Mexican Spanish
New Mexican Spanish
Peruvian Coast Spanish
Rioplatense Spanish
Spanish in the Philippines
Spanish in the United States
Spanish of El Salvador

[edit] Other dialects
The Ladino language of the Sephardic Jews

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webmanco says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:51:

I do believe Spanish language has many dialects, but each spanish speaking country migth have unique dialects that idenfify them.

http://lele.wordpress.com/2007/11/18/dialecto-vs-lenguaje/

La palabra dialecto es una palabra ideológicamente cargada que ha sido usada erróneamente para clasificar idiomas que por alguna razón u otra se desvían de lo que se considera la lengua “estándar��?.
Sin embargo, lo que hace que una lengua sea estándar no es algo intrínseco al lenguaje, sino que corresponde a variables extralingüísticas como la historia de un país y sus procesos políticos. Por ejemplo, cuando Inglaterra y España eran grandes imperios con colonias en América, se decía que los nacidos en el nuevo continente hablaban dialectos del inglés y el español. También los diccionarios, las gramáticas y los materiales didácticos suelen influir sobre el valor que se les asigna a ciertas variedades de un idioma por sobre otras. El hecho de que alguna variedad particular del idioma sea la que se plasma en uno de estos recursos impresos hace que esta se valorice sobre las otras. Muchos deciden entonces llamarle “dialecto��? a toda desviación de lo que recoge el diccionario

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:52:

JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:54:

webmanco says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:57:

is spanglish a dialect? I think it should not be widely accepted

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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msaucey says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:58:

Okay.... I'm going to be devil's advocate.... Yes, there are dialects spoken in some central american countries... I'm going to use Honduras as my example, because the first time I ever heard a dialect was from some close Honduran friends.... They spoke a Spanish dialect known as Garifuna, it was a combination of spanish, english and french... It's also somewhat spoken in Belize, Guatemala and Nicaragua...

There are variations of dialects like the one mentioned above, technically Spanish is a Dialect of the Roman Family of language, along with French... That's why we share quite a few words that are similar in spelling, pronounciation and meaning...

Maybe, your co-worker has an issue with the fact that Salvadorean uses, "Vos" when speaking and for the most part, nobody else does....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:58:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 12:59:

"The different dialects and accents do not severely block cross-understanding among the educated. The basilects have diverged more. As an example, early sound films were dubbed into one version for the entire Spanish-speaking market. Currently, non-Spanish (usually Hollywood) productions are dubbed separately into each of the major accents, but productions from another Spanish-language country are never dubbed. The popularity of telenovelas and Latin American music familiarize the speakers with other varieties of Spanish."

(Wiki)

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:06:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:11:

Yes, that's a dialect, a sociodialect.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:13:

A dialect (from the Greek word διάλεκτος, dialektos) is a variety of a language characteristic of a particular group of the language's speakers.[1] The term is applied most often to regional speech patterns, but a dialect may also be defined by other factors, such as social class
A dialect that is associated with a particular social class can be termed a sociolect. Other speech varieties include: standard languages, which are standardized for public performance (for example, a written standard); jargons, which are characterized by differences in lexicon (vocabulary); slang; patois; pidgins or argots. The particular speech patterns used by an individual are termed an idiolect.

(Wiki)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:15:

No, diealect by definition is just a variable of the same language. It does not mean that mutual understanding should be difficult or barred.

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:25:

webmanco says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:28:

Es que no me entiende? estoy hablando en algún dialecto o que?

A commun expresion when someone is not paying attention to you or do not obey.

No hay extremo cierto o verdadero, porque los extremos opacan, enruedan, (lavan cerebros) verdades. Yotas

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:37:

Probably, but it shoudn't be an impediment for understanding. In Colombia there are several dialects of Castilian spoken by millions of Colombians, el Rolo being one of them:)

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Man Tequila says on Jan 25, 2008, 13:39:

A dialect is not completely different from some theoretical neutral mother tongue. As you say, slang, some expressions, intonation and the meaning of a few words differ.

As for if your co-worker is right, I think she is. Even though they all speak Spanish. Which differs substantially between Costa Rica and Argentina.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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sloopskipper says on Jan 25, 2008, 15:06:

I am for sure, also no expert. In Puerto Rico, even the conjugations of verbs is different. Second and third person plural are the same. No vosotros. Or is that also true in Colombia?

Boriqueños is a dialect?

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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sloopskipper says on Jan 25, 2008, 15:16:

Linguist?

Seems that some people think "everybody's outa step but me".

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bostonmickey says on Jan 25, 2008, 16:48:

Check out Paolo Freire's Pedagogy of the Oppressed and let the debate continue...;-)

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MaFe says on Jan 25, 2008, 18:48:

I still don't think they are dialects..
Dialects are a whole different language like the Italian language..
Again I speak various languages and I know that Spanish is NOT like other languages that have dialects..
When I can travel to any Spanish speaking nation and understand the people...It is SPANISH...
when they are different dialects...I understand like the example given of Honduras..
but a Jargon is different from a dialect..
just because someone says abichuelas over beans doesn't mean they have a different dialect...

WhenI go to Puerto Rico and hear their accent and saying "quiero arroz con abichuelas" obviously I didn't know what abichuelas was but I learned it was beans for them, that isn't a dialect it's a different word/ Jargon...
I have been to Puerto Rico and understand their Spanish...it's not a dialect...I have been to many regions in Colombia and understand their Spanish, same with peru, Ecuador, and have friends from all countries that agree with me...
My coworkers feels that we all have different languages ONLY because of the accents and some different words...
So any linguist around?

Thanks everyone!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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MaFe says on Jan 26, 2008, 19:38:

Jack...thank you very much! That is mostly what I was arguing!

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 27, 2008, 01:12:

MaFe, I posted two pages from Wikipedia with the right answers for you. Not the answer you wanted to hear.

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MaFe says on Jan 27, 2008, 07:17:

Desi...gracias but if you look up the dictionary meaning of dialect and a jargon...there is a difference, and again, I speak Italian which I know has many different dialects...and I don't agree that the Spanish has different dialects...
pero con todo corazon gracias a todos...
Thanks Jack...you are right and so is Desi..

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 27, 2008, 08:23:

Lisa Zee says on Jan 27, 2008, 11:18:

I would only say that when I watch a movie, and they speak `young` Mexican and Spanish from Spain, I understand much more the one from Spain. (ejemplo como la pelicula "Y tu Mama tambien") I could not understand the Mexican Spanish much, even though I live in California!?
I agree 100% with Desi.

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Cerealkiller says on Jan 27, 2008, 11:20:

I think your co worker doesn't know the difference between dialect and accent.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Lisa Zee says on Jan 27, 2008, 11:22:

Ditto

Vive la vida y deja vivir!.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 27, 2008, 11:42:

Do you?

Note that there is a difference between an accent and a dialect:

"Dialect
Varieties of phonology and vocabulary and/or grammar.

Accent
When variety is only a matter of phonology (i.e. speech sounds).

Phonology
The study of the organisation of speech sounds.

An English accent, says J.C. Wells in Accents of English (1982), is:

"...a pattern of pronunciation used by a speaker for whom English is the native language or, more generally, by the community or social grouping to which he or she belongs."

To test your knowledge:

http://www.yorku.ca/earmstro/speech/speech_intro/accvsdia.htm
it's a quiz

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MaFe says on Jan 27, 2008, 12:42:

From the dictionary:
JARGON

I don't see how one country saying abichuelas as opposed to frijoles is a dialect...
We are still all speaking Spanish and I understand the Spanish from Colombia, Spain, central America and South America...so how is that a dialect?I don't think it's a dialect but thank you all who answered..
=)

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 27, 2008, 13:18:

According to the definition, yes, subsitution of vocabulary as well as in phonology happens in a dialect. I speak four languages myself, and in all of those four, there are several dialects and I can understand basically all the dialects within these languages, even if I do have a little problem understanding a southern Swedish dialect called skånska; I have to ask my Skånean workmate to repeat quite often what she said, but she is used to that, other people have difficulty understanding it too. Most Swedish dialects are fairly easy to understand...the same with the Finnish dialects, evenif I can imagine that for a foreigner they'd be a major pain.

Some dilaects in English are hard to understand, some easy. Spanish is pretty easy, because the phonetic variation from one area to another is so slight. Yet there are major vocabulary subsitutions and also the intonation varies widely from one area to another. Take, for example, the clipped, slow pace of an Andean peasant and compare it to a Puerto Rican from New York, A Mexican from a Uruguayan, ASpaniard from an Argentinian. Different dialects, clearly.

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msaucey says on Jan 27, 2008, 19:09:

Thanks for the spanish lesson.... Actually, I was probably going to some childhood flashback as to the way that Salvadoreans say VOS... It's normally on a cruder sense of the word... VOS come mierda.... is a common thing I heard them say... but, you are correct it is used throughout latin america....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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juli says on Jan 27, 2008, 19:18:

Extensively used in Latin America. But it is not used in Cuba either and that was not mentioned in the big post.

Mr Saucey, what's with the dots? Are you turning into RAAAAY?

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msaucey says on Jan 27, 2008, 19:21:

Juli.... It's Ms... Msaucey.... I don't know... I think my ring fingers gets stuck on the periods... I do this on my work e-mails, and depending on who it's addressed to, I have to remove my additional..... =>

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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juli says on Jan 27, 2008, 19:25:

Well besides the Vos thing at least you make sense. RAAAAY probably has a few shots before logging in here and passes out for a few seconds in between sentences while is hand is on the period.

Just a guess.

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msaucey says on Jan 27, 2008, 19:28:

Bueno, I try... no guarantees what comes from my thoughts...

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 28, 2008, 01:26:

I thought they spoke English in Belize?

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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JGD (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jan 28, 2008, 08:58:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 28, 2008, 09:23:

The Spaniards that populated the New World spoke different dialects ...depending on the concentration of the immigrants in different geographical locations and the influence of the native American tongues in them the dialects of Spanish were born.

Thus, in the lowlands where the main body of settlers came from Andalucia the Spanish spoken was modelled upon the Andaluz dialect of Spain, in the areas where people from Extremadura settled (especially Chile) you can still trace the accent to the local dialect of Extremadura. In highlands of Colombia (Bogotá, Boyacá, Cundinamarca) most of the settlers were of Castilian origin and that's one of the reasons why Colombian Spanish still preserves some of its classical beauty. Some countries, like Argentina, received a lot of Italian immigrants that influenced the dialect with intonation, vocabulary etc.

It's a matter of interpretation; not even the linguist agree on this issue. I still think that strictly speaking, the Rolo, the Costeño, the Valluno and the Pastuso are dialects and the Argentinian, Puerto Rican, Chilean, Mexican and Cuban Spanish are definitely dialects of Spanish

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MaFe says on Jan 28, 2008, 13:08:

They also speak spanish in Belize, but the official language is English but over 46% of the population speaks Spanish.
I agree that there are different dialects like in Spain...but I don't believe that the Spanish that we alls hare in common are dialects. (Central & South America)

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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CatGirl says on Jan 28, 2008, 13:11:

Mafe: I like this question/post. I have a friend that has a PhD in linguistics. Tell you what. I am gonna run the question by her and see if she can contribute anything to this question. Purrr

Love and Time: the only two things that cannot be bought, but only spent

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MaFe says on Jan 28, 2008, 16:12:

Catgirl...thanks

"All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire. "-Aristotle

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Geminis/lisa says on Jul 30, 2008, 00:30:

I am curious to know if in Spain, (Catalan, Gallego, Valenciano and Mayorquino) are considered dialects. I wouldn't call them a variation of Spanish as is not easy to understand them. I know Vasco is a language in itself with no relation to any other language.

No gods, no masters.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2008, 00:50:

I believe they are considered languages, at least some of them .

http://www.cyberspain.com/passion/lenguajes.htm


Languages of Spain[1]
Official language(s) Spanish
Regional language(s) Official
Catalan/Valencian, Basque, Galician, Aranese

Unofficial

Aragonese, Astur-Leonese (Asturian, Leonese, Cantabrian, Extremaduran), Eonavian, Fala language, Tarifit, as well as some distinct varieties of Spanish and the Gomeran whistled language

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Spain

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2008, 00:57:

"Spanish itself also has distinct dialects around the country; for example, the Andalusian or Canarian dialects, each of these with their own subvarieties, some of them being partially closer to the Spanish of the Americas, which they heavily influenced at different degrees, depending on the regions or periods, and according to different and non-homogeneous migrating or colonization processes."
(from Wiki, same page as above)

Thus, Galician, Catalan and Valencian would be considered languages, but Andalucian and Canarian, for example, would be considered dialects, the same with Castilian, the official language of Spain.

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Monpirri says on Jul 30, 2008, 06:24:

Arabic Dialects


Pat Fraley : Accents and Dialects



English Accents & Dialects of the British Isles Impressions

This example sounds like accents in Colombia; rolo, paisa, pastuso, costeño, caleño accents…

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Monpirri says on Jul 30, 2008, 06:37:

valenciano

Here is good example of a dialect in Spain, Valenciano a dialect of Spain, as you can tell it is not a different language but actually is the same Spanish language but with different names for some items.

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2008, 08:01:

Errr...according to the linguists, Valenciano and Catalan are basically the same language; none of them is considered a dialect but a language of Spain.

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Monpirri says on Jul 30, 2008, 08:08:

A language have to be totally different to be considered another language. The example above and perhaps there are more examples, some of the words are pronounced differently so it's a dialect not a different language.
The kid might not be an expert but he certainly simplied it for us.

"Anyone who still thinks that Colombia is not a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." Darloup

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