South America - but which country?

LDW says on Sep 15, 2005, 22:33:

which country??? I have been to both Argentina and Colombia. If my wife were not a Colombiana, I think I would opt for Argentina. Don't misunderstand me. I love Colombia, but I like Argentina even more. It has class and it has style, albeit with an air of faded, down at the heels decay. There are many places there with very agreeable climates. Some places in Argentina, such as Bariloche, San Martin de los Andes, and Mendoza are really breathtaking in their beauty. Buenos Aires must surely be one of the most sophisticated and cosmopolitan cities anywhere. Having said all of this, I expect Armenia in Colombia to be our retirement location. My wife has family there, the city is reasonably safe, and its perfect climate is much like the climate in Medellin (eternal spring).

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kernow62 says on Sep 16, 2005, 04:26:

If you are up to learning Portugese, check out Curitiba Brazil, clean, modern, quite sophisticated, BRT, nice climate, safe.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 16, 2005, 05:25:

Yes Argentina has a lotta class; they can't go to a freaking insignificant soccer game with out trying to kill each other. We (Colombians) enjoy killing each other but with damn good reasons.
As for Brazil, even Colombians laugh at their poverty.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 16, 2005, 05:30:

And another thing, all those so called "cosmopolitan" cities in Argentina were built with loans which they never paid back.

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elmodefoque says on Sep 16, 2005, 05:35:

damn, today i woke up like colombianoX, super colombiano.

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ARMacleod says on Sep 16, 2005, 05:57:

Argentina? Personal indebtedness is quite different from the cosmopolitan type. I wish Scotland had adopted the same attitude.

On a national scale, debt is quite different from that of a singular personal debt. Personal debt will invite the attentions of the bailiffs, courts etc. On a national scale ?

Scotland has been raped, pillaged, and plundered of its greatest national treasure, its manpower. The manner of extraction is by stealth. Impoverish a nation and you have it at your mercy.

In example: 1. The isle of sky alone produced 39 generals for the British army during the last war.

In example: 2. I and almost all of my friends from my school days moved south. Scotland is now inhabited by 'old people'.

Argentina has had its debts ‘written off' by the international banks? What is that all about?

I know that I have gone off track, but, compare Colombia.

My stated facts, although interesting at times, are generally irrevelant.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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aztec says on Sep 16, 2005, 06:21:

"I know that I have gone off track, but, compare Colombia." To follow-up on your question. I am not aware that Colombia has ever defaulted on its debt.

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kernow62 says on Sep 16, 2005, 06:22:

Same happened in most Celtic lands ARM. I can't afford to live in Cornwall because of all the people that have holiday homes that sit idle most of the year have made property out of the reach of the ordinary working man. When there is work that is, most of it is now seasonal low-paying work. Much of Wales is the same but at least there is a bit of industry left.

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go2pr says on Sep 16, 2005, 10:22:

"Brazil would definitely be an idea but I feel somewhere like Rio could be far too touristy"


The Zona Sul of Rio, where tourists stay, is a VERY small and VERY unrepresentative part of Brasil.

You can travel two complete years in this country without even begin to touch the diversity of Brasil.

Plus if you think about retirement, Curitiba, Belo Horizonte, Florianopolis and Porto Alegre have been ranked the first four South American cities for the best quality of living.

Medellin is a crackhouse compared with Curitiba.

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miamimike says on Sep 16, 2005, 10:36:

Depends what your visit purpose is.... If its for eventual retirement, you may want to investigate Nicaragua, Honduras or Panama also. All 3 countries have Pensionado Programs(designed to attract retirees and the programs are fairly straight forward and transparent in applying for a retirement status. These folks then receive many benefits. This was discussed here indepth a few months ago by Viewpoint(very knowledgeable on the subject, myself and others. Do a search here and it will pop up. Friends of mine in Argentina and also here in Miami tell me as far as security and travel no problem.Sure they say in some seedy areas of BA there are common thiefs like any big city but no FARC Types to grab you off a bus. Brazilians say the same thing-get out of Rio/S.Paulo and no probelms plus the Cost of Living is also very reasonable in these two countries. My concern in Colombia is the Worry when traveling between cities on the Buses and being grabbed by the Farc, though it now occurs in the Major Colombian Cities also.

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Rubiazo says on Sep 16, 2005, 12:54:

climate and other things You really almost cant go wrong with the weather in South America, especially if you stick to major cities. Buenos Aires has a temparate climate, as does Uruguay and Southern Brazil, but those places are WAY more moderate than anywhere in North america east of the Rockies. I would say Colombia and other mountainous ecuatorial states have an advantage on climate because you can just pick your favorite weather and stay there, the weather is the same all year round.
Brazil beats Colombia and Argentina hands down for beaches. The food is great in all three countries. If you like beef, Argentina. If you like fruit, Brazil. Colombia has great food all around though and has a lot of absolutely delicious things you cant find anywhere else.
Brazil is a diverse country like the other poster said. In the South, you will find quality of living comprable to anywhere else in South America, and just shy of that of Europe. In the Northeast you will find unbelievably grinding poverty and misery along with total opulence. If you go to Rio, you will definitely be looked down on as a gringo. There is unquestionably a growing anti-gringo sentiment down there. Anywhere else I doubt they would give a damn.
One big advantage of Colombia is that you will get more bang for your USD or CAD or Euro than you would in Brazil or Argentina. If you have to work, maybe Argentina would be a better bet because of better pay, but I wouldn't say for certain. If you want to work teaching English in Brazil, be prepared to be just as fucked financially as the locals, which is FUCKED!
As for crime, Argentina is statistically the safest place, for whatever that's worth. I don't think the FARC are going to pull your ass off of a local bus in Bogotá though. Having been to Rio and Bogotá I would say Rio to me is more dangerous, but still well within my tolerance.

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ARMacleod says on Sep 16, 2005, 16:42:

aztec My statement was meant to compare the poor peoples vulnerability to exploitation, not the financial aspects of the government.

Pax vobiscum.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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adrimm says on Sep 16, 2005, 17:51:

Kernow I visited a village in the UK owned by that National Trust, they bought it, and leased the homes back to the people who had lived there or who had family history there, so those people could then afford to live there full-time. The we went to another village that had been "gentrified"....and it was a very pretty, very silent ghost town.

I notice that the same thing is starting to happen here as well. Some of the most charming small and simple places in great locations are getting snapped up as vacation homes. Then the vacationers arrive and wonder why the few locals left give them dirty-looks. Defintitely a community-killer.

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LDW says on Sep 16, 2005, 18:06:

Argentine soccer games Yes...people are crazy at Argentine soccer games. I have a simple solution for that. I am not a soccer fan, so you will not find me at the game. I prefer to be at the golf course. On balance, I think my chances of being killed on some random basis are lower in Argentina than in Colombia. But like I said, for family reasons we will probably end up in Colombia anyway. As for Argentina defaulting on loans, I guess that's true. But at this point in my life, I don't really care, as long as my monthly pension cheque continues to arrive. There are some interesting comments about southern Brazil in here. I am going to do some Google searches on those places.

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rash9000 says on Sep 16, 2005, 20:09:

they say curitiba o curitibia is really good. I myself would like to visit it someday

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rash9000 says on Sep 16, 2005, 20:18:

If you don't like big urbanized cities, check Manizales. THe climate is awesome and people is very friendly, plus is near the three biggest cities in COLOmbia (cali, medellin y bogota).
Bogota is a little bit to elevated, making it a little cold. But is defenitly very nice.
Medellin has its metro
and Cali-Yumbo-Palmira has several attractions

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go2pr says on Sep 17, 2005, 00:40:

Curitiba Quality of living in Curitiba, Porto Alegre and all Southern Brasil is the highest in South America. Those are very pleasant and progressive cities, heavily influenced by its large European immigrants communities. Plus girls there have German, Polish or Italian elements, but thanks to the portugeses, have also this tropical tanned look and are without a doubt the prettiest and most sexy girls on planet earth ....

But I personnaly prefer the eastern part of the Sao Paulo and the Goias states. There's a lot of Texas imitation there, and for me it's a kind of 'Brasilian Texas' : in Barretos (close from SP) is even organised the biggest annual rodeo/country event in the world !!!

I enjoy this "latin country and western" atmosphere (and those very HOT latina country girls of course !!). Wealthy and very secure medium-sized cities like Bauru, Ribeiro Preto or Americana, or farer Uberlandia or Goiania (I really LOVE Goiania), are places for guys in search of stunning hotties, clubs, parties, rodeos, country and rock music, ect,ect.

There's ALL in this "Brasilian Texas" : the really high level of beauty of most of the girls (amateurs of blacks or mulatas will be disappointed, there's almost none), the way they dress with this inimitable sexy blend of latin and cowboy style, the best picanha (grilled beef) in Brasil, the enjoyable sertaneja (country) or forro music (yet there's also a great rock scene), the endless deep blue sky, a pleasant friendly atmosphere, ect. Plus some numerous beautiful "out of time" colonial old gold-mining towns, mountain forests, caves, waterfalls, and other parks and natural reserves.

But Sao Paulo is IMO also great. There's in Sao Paulo a few pleasant districts which are on a refreshingly human scale compared to most other parts of town, like Jardim, Moema, Itaim or Pinheiros, which is an unpretentious and lively neighbourhood, with a particular laidback atmosphere.

Sao Paulo shrines above all for the guys looking for late-night parties, high quality and educated girls, fine clubs, awesome nightlife (surely the best in the world), fabulous music scene and incredibly various and good food. And that's not even counting the nearby beach towns of the beautiful Sao Paulo's "Litoral Norte" like Camburi, Maresias or Ubatuba, where beaches can easily compete with Copacabana or Ipanema (without the buildings and the favelas) and where there's a GREAT nighlife on weekends.

In Brasil there's absolutly no reason to stick to Rio de Janeiro or Nordeste.

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utopiacowboy says on Sep 17, 2005, 08:35:

Very interesting post, go2pr. The Canadian in me must ask is the area (Brasilian Texas) safe? I've seen several Brazilian movies like "City of God" and "You, Me, Them" and Brazil has never seemed very appealing to me. I guess it's a big country and varies widely. I'd really like to check out the area that you describe.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Goose says on Sep 17, 2005, 09:29:

Thanks guys, really helpful stuff. go2pr, I thought your post was especially vivid, really got my imagination going - must do some more research on Sao Paulo!

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Rubiazo says on Sep 17, 2005, 11:03:

My friend just got back from BR and he has been to both Rio and SP twice. He vastly prefers SP. The biggest problem in SP is almost definitely the traffic though. The city has a huge transportation problem much like Bogotá used to before the Transmilenio. The Transmilenio is actually based on Curitiba's system BTW. They are adding new subway stations and lines in SP at a breakneck pace but they have a long long way to go!
I have never personally been to Goias or the South of Brazil but from what I've heard it's a little boring. It would depend on your lifestyle though. To me, if a city doesnt have at least 100 spots to dance and drink in at 4am on a Tuesday its a washout.

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go2pr says on Sep 18, 2005, 01:24:

"I have never personally been to Goias or the South of Brazil but from what I've heard it's a little boring"

Without bashing, Medellin is a ghost town at night compared any big/mid sized city of southern Brasil or of the eastern part of Sao Paulo state, and IMO muuuuuch more boring.

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Rubiazo says on Sep 18, 2005, 03:28:

Never been to Medellin either But I have been led to believe that it to is on the boring side :PPP
And that God-awful accent they have there YEESH!

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LDW says on Sep 18, 2005, 23:59:

Retirement...which country?? My main interest in this entire forum is to look for and discuss ideas on retirement spots. Perhaps it is just a pipedream, but after having worked and lived most of my life through long Northern Canadian winters (and mosquito infested summers), I dream of spending some quality time in a more congenial climate. My needs are quite basic. I want safety, a reasonable cost of living, adequate health care, access to fast (cable or DSL) internet, and (ideally) a place to play golf (hopefully all year round). Curiously enough, it is my Colombian wife (actually I met her in Canada, and now she has probably become more Canadian than she is Colombian) of almost 30 years that seems to be the more reluctant one of us to contemplate the idea. She is understandably reluctant to be far away from her children, and thus her grandchildren (if we ever have any). If we were ever to go to Latin America, she would want either Armenia or her small home town in Valle del Cauca in Colombia. All other things being equal (which of course is never the case), I would choose Argentina as my retirement location for reasons that I and others have mentioned above. It is safe, the cost of living is reasonable, and there is a larger middle class (thereby making it more stable than Colombia) there than in most other Latin American countries. I have been there, and I loved it. One could almost say that it is more European than Europe itself.

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kernow62 says on Sep 19, 2005, 04:54:

The Argentinians would like to think it is more European than Europe. You have just paid them the biggest compliment possible.

Stable? You of course aren't talking about the economy then?

Safer yes. Beautiful yes. Charming yes. Keep your money elsewhere and in another currency.

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viewpoint says on Sep 19, 2005, 06:29:

Medellin, Colombia number one for many reasons followed by Santiago, Chile number two. Santiago, Chile is a beautiful city with four seasons but the long commute to north america is the only reason I'm not living there. Chile is the best country in Latin America speaking in terms laws and finances. It has the best credit rating in all of Latin America and a strong economy and legal system.

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utopiacowboy says on Sep 19, 2005, 09:00:

What are your reasons, Viewpoint? I am shocked that you would put Medellin number 1.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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viewpoint says on Sep 19, 2005, 09:28:

UTOPIACOWBOY I think I found a little bit of "utopia" in Medellin. jajaja

I am not a world traveler but I have traveled many places in the Americas. Having grown up in a cold climate where I lived for the first half of my life I have spent the last half seeking a more comfortable (less hostile) climate. The climate of Medellin is the most perfect that I have experienced. I like the culture, the people, the food, the setting, the scenery and the infastructure of Medellin and the sorrounding countryside.

I came to Medellin to meet a woman but fell in love with the red tiled roofs, brick finishes and vibrant self-sufficent smiling people. Each time I return driving down Los Palmas in the evening looking out on the lights of the city in the valley below I get excited and it takes a lot to get me excited anymore. There's a little of something for everyone in Medellin.

If it wasn't for the distance Santiago, Chile would have been my first choice for sure.

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utopiacowboy says on Sep 19, 2005, 09:50:

But, correct me if I am wrong I certainly can't argue with your reasoning but, correct me if I am wrong, you live in Panama?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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viewpoint says on Sep 19, 2005, 12:12:

I live in both places. I bought a home in Medellin 6.5 years ago and only spend part time living there. If I had my choice I would live full time in Medellin.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 19, 2005, 12:15:

Can I be your houseboy? Kind of a lazy, no-good, drink your beer, Kato Kaelin-type houseboy?



;-)

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caslug says on Sep 19, 2005, 14:45:

Viewpoint, is it true that santiago city is kinda ugly, all urban? I agree i've talked with other americans and they say the investment climate in Chile is better and more stable(on of the best in L.America). I've also hear the girls are not as attractive, ohh well...

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