Sorry my post started a war.

billyb says on Feb 6, 2007, 13:23:

Let's see, you write several posts.... stating how proud you are of the FARC, they way they kidnap and kill innocent people (including one suggesting bodily harm to a PBH member). You state how proud you are of how they extort and drive people off their land, how you wish they would come to power so they can do it on a far grander scale. Then you whine and want PBHers to feel sorry for you, beause the AUC has done precisely that to you (at least according to what you state). A bit of a hipocryte aren't you? Having said that, I don't think your thread should have been deleted and I don't think said PBH member took your sorry attempt at intimidation too seriously.

.BillyB

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billyb says on Feb 6, 2007, 15:07:

Just like you woudln't last a half hour in ... the sierras of Cordova. And I do know what the "real Las FARCS" represent, they have kidnapped 3 of my cousins and killed 2 out of those 3. If lobbing a gas canister into a church were women and children are taking refuge and killing 107 of them, doesn't constitute killing innocents, then I don't know what does. Why don't you quit whinning and go join them?

BillyB

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Swinn88 says on Feb 6, 2007, 17:12:

I would consider myself middle left however I would not condone the killing and displacement of my brother and sister countrymen for the sake of an idea that is largely not supported by the general population of colombia. I have socialist ideas but what is going on in colombia serves no one but the groups perpertrating these crimes against humanity. If The FARC and other groups including the Paras fought a different war without killing and forcing people from their homes then perhaps they would gain support. the way things are now I don't see that happening anytime in the near future. It's a sad thing when if I serve someone in a restaurant and he is FARC then I am considered a sympathizer and may be killed. If I refuse to serve them I may be killed and visa versa. Neither the Paras nor the Rebel groups allow the people to choose for themselves. Instead the put their boots in the peoples backs and demand demand demand. Has anyone thought to just stop, See how it goes without Interference and then proceed? no they fight and kill each other while not gaining a single thing but fear from the people and money from drugs and kidnapping. Let the people decide what they want without being forced. Let the people choose a president with socialist ways. I like to see both sides of an argument but to use "people die in wars" and using Vietnam and WWI & WWII as an excuse to condone these atrocities is a bit ridiculous. It's ridiculous to kill your own countrymen under the guise of "its what is better for them". Is The Government A perfect Government? Hell No!!! but no Government is perfect and no Government will please all of the people. The good that the FARC does is minimized and means nothing simply because of the bad that they do. The murders they commit, the land they steal, the buildings with innocents they blow up. all of those acts negate any good they could ever possibly think of doing. How Many years? 40 Years with no movement and still fighting, making Colombia a third world country. It's because of the FARC and the PARAS and other groups that Colombia Can't move forward. Not the Government. I believe in socialism but not like The FARC. I believe in Medical for everyone, homes, school, but I also know that Colombia needs investment. Not communisim like china who on paper is a country doing better at an incredible pace. But no one mentions that the general population is still impoverished. What they do is not for the people. You are entitled to your opinion of the FARC however I think you see them with Skewed Vision and are not capable of seeing the forest through the trees. So...just stop it and give Colombia a chance to decide. If socialism is better the people will vote for it on their own. At this pace it will never happen.

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law254 says on Feb 6, 2007, 18:07:

"Iam sorry my post started a war,of vulgar words"
this is what tends to happen on the internet

"I do believe that censorship is not the way to handle it though"
censorship tends to take place on PBH

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Swinn88 says on Feb 6, 2007, 18:13:

I agree Law254. Just my views on the subject.

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miamimike says on Feb 6, 2007, 18:15:

My thoughts also, let the Man Talk or in the case of a Woman let her talk,,,,

On Sept 17, 2008: Senator John McCain said, as he had many times before, that he believed the fundamentals of the economy were "strong."Hours later he backpedaled, explaining that he had meant that American workers were Strong.

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billyb says on Feb 6, 2007, 18:31:

CMike does your ignorance... know no bounds? The massacre at the church happened a few years ago in Bojaya, El Choco , google it and while you're at it google Club El Nogal, then talk shit. Btw, since you were problably drunk the other night when you made your feeble threat and were flexing your internet and cheap beer muscles (I doubt you have much of the real ones), you won't remember that I already stated that I am Colombian. And all this "We" shit is what got you kicked out of Cordova, keep it up and you will probably have to leave V'dupar. I don't support the Paras' methods either, although with morons like our friend here, it makes you wonder.

BillyB

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billyb says on Feb 6, 2007, 19:12:

Mike, you're right, I lied, it was119... victims, instead of 107. Since your internet minutes are probably running out and as we don't want you to have to go out and mug some old lady to pay for more, I Wikied it for you.

Bojayá massacre
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Bojayá massacre occurred on May 2, 2002 in the Colombian town of Bojayá (with its urban centre also referred to as Bellavista), in Chocó department. FARC guerrillas seized the town in an attempt to take control of the Atrato river region from AUC paramilitaries, in the process killing approximately 119 civilians in an apparently indiscriminate attack with an improvised homemade mortar assembled with gas cylinders parts (known in Spanish as pipeta or Cilindro bomba).
BillyB

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 6, 2007, 20:57:

Sorry Mike but I've talked to dozens of ex FARC who were totally upfront about both the crimes they had committed (murder, kidnapping...) and the crimes that had been committed AGAINST them, since most had been recruited as kids.

You're dreaming if you think the FARC is some noble organization based on deeply held ideals, or you're trolling.

Paz.

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billyb says on Feb 6, 2007, 21:28:

Actually Mike, the FARC victimizes poor Colombians... more than they do the rich, because they are more vulnerable and have less recourse and fewer resources to protect themselves. The Farc forcibly recruits the children of the campesinos, not the children of north Bogota'. You are too delusional to have a reasonable conversation with if you think all that's been attributed to the FARC was commited by the AUC (although I will allow that there have been instances were this is indeed the case). Are you also implying that the FARC had nothing to do with the bombing at EL Nogal (dozens of innocents killed)? Do you need me to Wikie?Google that one for you also? How is the FARC protecting the enviroment? By stripping the Serrania de la Macarena National Park of it's native vegetation and planting coca? Or blowing up the oil pipelines and polluting all the rivers in the region? (or is that the AUC also)It's obvious that you are only a little wannabe, because as Mr. Hollywood points out above, the real combatants know the real score and don't have a romanticized and farcical (no pun intended) notion of what they are.

BillyB

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goin_south says on Feb 6, 2007, 22:26:

Shut the F**K up, Colombiamike. probably some will say it is wrong, but: there are alot of things deleted from this site; colombiamikes' BS should be also. Because it is definitely not about the 'wonderful people and wonderful country' of Colombia that Peter so distinctly dedicated this site to.

dos pesos mios,... es poquito de nada

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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goin_south says on Feb 7, 2007, 01:15:

let me repeat: cm,...STFU.
You bash those who are 'colombian' here, and don't even know who/what you are bashing.

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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goin_south says on Feb 7, 2007, 01:36:

cm, glad your up on your baseball (thanks to Googlesearch!) maybe you ought to get up on Colombia.

cm_stfu!

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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goin_south says on Feb 7, 2007, 01:37:

cm...you are a war, waiting to happen you like the Farc so much, GO JOIN ThE BASTARDS.

cm_stfu!

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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Swinn88 says on Feb 7, 2007, 06:15:

The Fact still remains that there are crimes against humanity being committed. The FARC The PARAS It doesn't matter. CMike all of those groups commit these violent acts. The FARC is under the Magnifying glass only because that is the group that you have praised. Yes Other groups have done some atrocious acts but You are FARC and You condone killing and displacement. You argument basically states that the other groups do it so we do it. I find it hard to believe that the AUC pays well. If they do I have never seen any indication of it. Regardless of U.S. involvement in colombia this sensless war has been going on for some 40 years for reasons having nothing to do with the U.S. so keep the blame where it belongs and thats with the Colombian PARAS The Rebels and Government. It just so happens that The Colombian Government is the obvious better choice by far. without question

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cali373 says on Feb 7, 2007, 10:42:

billyb. Question, how come is was ok to be proud of the AUC by supposively making some areas safe using the same tactics that you just mentioned the FARC do? You did not rise up to the denounce extortion and the driving of people off land, murders when the paramilatary does it.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:26:

I googled it and came up with a list of several massacres, murders, kidnappings from the Human Rights Watch site (which some idiots in the US and Colombian claim that HRW aides the FARC). Wikipedia does not provide a full explanation of the events that occured with the church bombing. The FARC and AUC were in a gunfight that spilled over into the town. Many people gathered for shelter in the churc. The FARC is known to use home-made cylinder mortars that are very inaccurate and one of them hit the church. I really doubt it was intentional since the FARC are actually dedicated well trained soldiers and would rather hit the people who are shooting at them, then helpless people in a church. I want to add that they were both battling for control of a drug route. Unfortunately these are casualties of war, just like the US armed forces have unintentionally killed innocent men, women, and babies during the initial bombing campaign. This happens in war and battles and battles with the FARC involved are no different.

While I was there I figure I also google atrocities from the AUC and Colombian Military support for paramilitaries. Also keep in mind that the Colombian army is backed and trained by the US. Does the US support state terrorism, NO WAY, NEVER.

"we are all part of the same hypocracy"

http://www.hrw.org/reports98/colombia/Colom989-05.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports98/colombia/Colom989-04.htm
http://www.hrw.org/reports/2001/colombia/2.1.htm

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:34:

FARC, AUC, Colombian government. I choose none of them for Colombia. but I have to add that when the UP party was created as a political arm and experiment to see if a true opposition party to the liberal and conservative party, The UP was decimated by the AUC. Would you give up your arms? Give up my gun to be killed later, I think not. I hope this AUC demobilization works because at least it will eliminate the worse player in this conflict, Even though there are reports already of regrouping, but that was expected. Uribe deserves alot of credit for that because only he could have done. Why because he is involved (and always has been) with the paramilitary. So he is what colombia needs for now.

AT the end of the day, it is ALL Colombians who suffer.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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billyb says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:36:

C373, please copy and paste where I said... we should be proud of the AUCs methods. As a matter of fact I denounced the AUC on this thread and others. Since I was replying to to a post glorifying the FARC and their methods it makes sense that I would repudiate them. If you want to start a thread glorifying the AUC, then I will post a denunciation against them there. It's not an either , or, they're both bad and most intelligent people agree with that, hope you do also. I know our little buddy Mike doesn't.BillyB

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billyb says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:36:

double post sorry

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billyb says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:36:

BillyB
BillyB

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Swinn88 says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:36:

40 years... most of it before plan colombia. Keep the blame where it belongs. It's very easy to find a scapegoat and use them as fuel for your cause. The problem begins in Colombia and ends in Colombia. Not in or with the U.S.

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cali373 says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:41:

billyb, then I am sorry i guess I did not remember, but thank you for reminding me.

Swinn88 if you think that the US was only involved in Colombia since the drug war, I must beg you to PLEASE start hitting the history books. Real ones not the kind that you find in elementary and high school classrooms. They are declassified CIA documents from the 40's about the CIA in colombia. and we can even go further back to the 20's with the United fruit company. Marquetalia was bombed when the US "aided" Colombia with planes and bombs. I have to remind you that panama was once a province of colombia just like Antioquia is, that was until the US and the French got involved. Grant it, the current civil conflict has nothing to do with Panama. US involvement in Latin American started way back with the Monroe Doctorine. Even though the Doctorine states that the US will be somewhat neutral. That has not been the case. In fact the US was called on it's hypocracy when Argentina tried to get support from the US for the Falklands war.

This is a great THREAD!!

Smile if you are a thinker!

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billyb says on Feb 7, 2007, 11:46:

No worries C373 BillyB

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juancegomez says on Feb 7, 2007, 12:54:

Lots of different topics and so little time for... ...some comments/observations of my own. Late as they may be.

If necessary I may expand (and complicate) this later, as I'm usually quite willing to do, but the following will have to suffice for the moment:

a)Colombia needs a lot of changes. As in the rest of Latin America, the social, political and economic structures are in urgent need of reform, if we are to begin building a truly fair society anytime soon.

b)The cycle of violence that Colombia is facing hasn't brought forth any realistic solution. Instead, it has led to further stagnation and erosion of the limited gains thus far. Prolonging the war for the sake of the "status quo" or for the "revolution" is ultimately illusory and self-destructive.

c)The FARC, the AUC, the government, the ELN. the narcos and other parties (such as the U.S.) are all guilty of having committed numerous atrocities, both intentional and unintentional, direct and indirect. In different proportions and circumstances, they have all inflicted great harm against each other, parts of the civilian population and the environment. Trying to excuse or justify any of those atrocities is ridiculous. There is no need for a pissing contest.

d)All of them are complex actors, and many can be both victims and victimizers at the same time on an individual level. That being the case, subjective emotional generalizations do not reflect reality. This isn't a game of "Red" vs. "Blue" or "White" vs. "Black". There are just too many moral ambiguities here that make most preconceived notions fall apart, whether they are "right" or "left" oriented.

e)The U.S. has had a powerful positive and negative influence in Colombia throughout the decades, and just as that role may deserve praise for its virtues, it also deserves criticism for its flaws. Colombia itself (and those in power, whether in the state or in the "counter-state") is ultimately mostly responsible for its own problems and their solutions, but it cannot be said that the U.S. has not interfered, both for better and for worse, many times. That also implies a certain amount of historical and contextual co-responsibility for many things.

f)The UP had a complex but also tragic history that isn't properly represented by simply referring to the violence against it as if it came out of the middle of nowhere. Steven Dudley's "Walking Ghosts" has a detailed look at the life, times and death of the UP that recognizes numerous moral ambiguities in Colombia and in this particular organization's history. It's worth a good read, IMHO.

g)It may seem like asking for too much, given the nature of Colombia's history, but if we are to find a peaceful solution to all this, the first step will probably be finding ways for the parties to communicate in an honest, generous and responsible manner. That is not a matter of willpower alone, of course, nor of grandiose Caguan-like talks and unreasonable demands from both sides, but something that also depends on the internal state of the parties, "realpolitik", the military balance, ambitions, economics, etc. and even other circumstances that we cannot predict.

No wars in this world have lasted forever, and the current conflict isn't going to be an exception, but they can still last an unreasonably long amount of time if the necessary efforts are not made and if luck (shorthand for "many factors coinciding") isn't on our side.

Disclaimer: the above are merely one person's perspectives and opinions, and thus just as valid as those of others. They are all subject to debate.

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Miguel says on Feb 7, 2007, 13:50:

"Walking Ghosts" Definitely worth reading, IMHO.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Feb 7, 2007, 15:05:

ColombiaMike I'm just curious. You seem pretty smooth with the English language. Where did a ranch kid from the campo of Colombia learn to write English so well?

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jay1234 says on Feb 7, 2007, 18:55:

Two wrongs.... don't make a right. CM, if I catch your meaning, you believe that since AUC and ELN have done bad things, it justifies FARC doing bad things. I disagree. What Colombia needs is respect for the rule of law. If that happened, the violence would go down and the economic prospects of the people would have an opportunity to go up. That is an extreme simplification of the issue but the basic premise is true.
I think you started off on the right foot talking about how people have the right to their opinions and you don't bad mouth them for it. You lost the moral high ground on that point with the I can go where I want "because I am not an overweight gringo" stuff. If you don't want posts to digress into name calling, you should stick to facts and your opinions on them, IMHO.

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