some might love this, other might hate it....

Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 30, 2004, 12:02:

Relevant to Colombia how? And why is this posted on a Colombia website?

In my experience, men who diss one country's women in general and then unfavorably compare them to the women of another country, where the dollar goes a long way and a blue passport is a big selling point, are guys who got rejected badly and repeatedly in their own country and must depend on their economic advantage elsewhere to help them find mates.

It's easy for a guy to chalk it all up to American women being "bitches" when the reality is that he's just a loser. Real men own up to their failings and learn from them.

Don't get me wrong, I think Colombian women are lovely and wonderful. I'm also sure a lot of American men find truly good relationships here based on something other than the power of economic advantage. But I find the continual bashing of American women really tiresome.

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ShazCas says on Jul 30, 2004, 12:34:

Hilarious Website I'm a very curious person and so had to look at this website, especially since I'm a western woman and was promised I would freak. Well, I have to say, I didn't. I did laugh a hell of a lot though.

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ShazCas says on Jul 30, 2004, 12:35:

AT the guy.... Sorry, forgot to say, AT the bloke, not with him.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2004, 12:47:

me too have to have my finger in every pie on this planet so I took a look too...being a western woman and to find out if I'd freak. I didn't. Same old raving and ranting about all of us being this and that. I didn't laugh, though, I thought it was rather tedious reading, most of it. Have to confess I didn't have enough curiosity to wade through all the baloney...and once again, my boredom was mixed with some kind of unexplainable sense of feeling sorry for the guy.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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madman says on Jul 30, 2004, 13:02:

I have read that web site many times and agree with some of the points, but I think they apply to many Americans in general, not just women. From my experience with my girl friend in Colombia and American women, Colombians are far less materialistic, more passionate and kinder. My girl friends family likes me for me, not my career or monetary reasons. When I visited her family I got very few questions about my career and more questions about myself and my family. They were very carious about their daughters new gringo boyfriend but not in a way a American family would be. I’ve never been around nicer people that have appreciation of family and values then in Colombia. My Colombian girl friend is the opposite in many ways of the women I have dated and one I have married. She is passionate and likes me for me, not my career or my money. She treats me better then any American girl ever has, and I have had a lot of experience with American girls.

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liquidlove says on Jul 30, 2004, 13:19:

hummm If I was fat, dumb, broke, ugly and stupid. You might have a point here. But I'm not. I get all the girls I want here. Most are educated, intelligent and BRAIN WASHED!!! So what's your argument now? I'm just a loser....could that be the only reason I agree with some of the points on this site? Most of your reactions are so typical.
Thanks for the honesty badabrt. I agree with you. And I agree with many of the points the author of the site i put up made. And if that makes me a loser...fine.
I lose. But so do most of the couples here, in my case, Canada. Why do you think the divorce rate is so high in America? Something is wrong. And I truly belive that feminism is a huge part of the problem.
Last thing I want to say is I don't care who actually does the cooking and cleaning. I just don't like women who think they're above it. That's called being a princes. And let me assure you there are many princesses living around here.

My experience with other cultures is that the women are sweet, friendly, more concerned about who you are than what you do. They don't even wonder who should make dinner. Nor do they ask who's going to fix the car. They know. Under these circumstances, a 50/50 relationship is perfectly possible. But only if you're not counting.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2004, 13:59:

more hmmmmmmmmm... What gets me every time when I read these websites about how people are supposed to be is that somehow there seems to be a consensus about the set of values and and male/female patterns of thinking that would prevail in a certain culture, say for example Colombia. That somehow it's only the men or the women who are supposed to be in a certain way. That has not been my experience. Bashing American women for materialism is the epitome of hypocrisy, since American males en large are just as materialistic, career oriented and impressionable by the mass media. The high divorce rate must thus be a result of something totally different than the bitchiness of the "western" females, since most men and women share the same upbringing, education and values.
Bunching all western women together in the category of princesses is totally erroneus, too. At my work most of us are women. All of us are "western". Some are bitchier than others, but I still haven't encountered a "princess" who wouldn't do her share of housework, either at home or at the work. Every woman I work with cooks, cleans, does laundry, cares for her children, shops, pays her bills and brings home a salary, and so do their husbands! I'd say that the author of that website is hugely misinformed about women, the sharing of the housework, the reasons behind high divorce rates, about almost everything. His point of view is extremely biased and narrow.
There are sweet, caring, loving women in every country, in every culture, that I am totally convinced of. Men and women in every country share the same values, the same outlook on life, the same principles in general, with individual variations, of course. Colombian women are just that, just women in the first place, then Colombian in the second place. Just like everybody else.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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liquidlove says on Jul 30, 2004, 15:19:

ummmmmmm ummmmmmm I agree with all your points, and appreciate your lack of aggressively. But I don’t necessarily think you are right, about all your points.
For example, your first point in reference to the unspoken consensus about “how people are supposed to be”. I can think of plenty of arguments where if I told you a behavior and asked you to pick the sex of the person most likely to be doing it, you’d have no problems. Lets say, for example, a bar fight. Boy or girl? Lets say arranging flowers? Boy or girl? Obviously, we both come from the same culture and get some of the signals and either sex could get into a bar fight or arrange flowers. But how is it that instinctively you know who would be most likely to do what? Are you saying that because we live within the same culture, we get the same messages and are therefore the same?
Bunching all women into one category isn’t very fair. Western women are not all fat lazy slobs who don’t earn money or do house work. I don’t think this is the point of the site either. Part of what he’s saying is that western women are much more materialistic than women from other cultures, and therefore women from other cultures make better wives and long term partners. As a whole, I know this is true.
Not all marriage problems stem from bitchy western women. However, I agree with the author that a big part of the problem that westerners have, comes from misguided notions of feminism, reinterpreted, amplified and distorted by the media, and now rotting in our brains. Most dangerously the idea that equality is synonymous with homogeny of the sexes. This is not equality. This is death to differences we used to live for and dream about.
But thank you for your wonderful open minded comments....you're are a smart women.

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liquidlove says on Jul 30, 2004, 15:43:

come on NO relevance to Colombia?????????
That's not cool...then delete all the other posts with no relevance to Columbia...asshole.
grrrr

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villdkatta says on Jul 30, 2004, 16:50:

I didn't see the original post... but I admit I bristled at your insinuation that feminism is part of the high divorce rate in America, Liquid. I don't know whether I'm a feminist or not, but I do know that I expect equal pay for an equal job done by my male counterparts. I believe that women are just as valuable as men in this society, and each complement each other. I guess I am a feminist but my marriage is happy and healthy. If women wanting equal rights offends some, then so be it.

I think any time generalizations are used people end up putting their foot in their mouth. I'm an American born woman and definitely not a princess - I work hard, and am about as anti-materialistic as they come (which is also part of my religion). Definitely not princessy here, and none of my American friends are princessy either. I'm not trying to be argumentative, just wanted to let you know that all western women aren't alike. And I'm sorry if I sound belligerent. I was looking at another post on this site a few days ago that referred to hairy armpitted feminists or something like that. I can assure you that I am not hairy and quite feminine in appearance. :-)

Kim

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liquidlove says on Jul 31, 2004, 09:22:

lastly I don't know if anyone cares, or is following this link now that god himself seems to have struck me down....
but this little article poped up on my yahoo home page this morning. Yes I know, this has nothing to do with Colombia....and I'm a loser...k.
ciao
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&ncid=564&e=22&u=/nm/20040731/ts_nm/pope_women_dc

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pointofview says on Jul 31, 2004, 11:48:

DESIDERIA AGREED I certainly agree with Desi and her comments. Colombians are just as materialistic as north americans (to the extent they are financially able) they are upward mobile in their purchases or lifestyle to the extent there finances allow.

The high divorce rate in the USA is more a result of the financial abilities of the USA citizens (with higher disposable incomes) to make choices while the Colombians with lower disposible incomes are financially trapped in their marriages. The divorce rate would be higher in Colombia if the income levels where the same as the western countries (higher but not as high as western countries). Colombian divorces, latin tempter, burned bridges and take no hostages is alive much the same in Colombia as the USA or other western country (although to a lesser degree in Latin America).

Having said that I would agree that there are significant positive differences between the the two cultures with the Colombians (Latin America) being more family oriented, sharing, comitted and caring than their north american counterparts (as a general rule of thumb). Some of it has to do with the necessity of making do with less brings families, friends and even strangers closer together as they share the same plight. It gets back to the old saying "If you are not happy where you are coming from you won't be happy where you are going" or the "Grass always looks greener on the other side of the street".

It appears that more women (and men) in the USA are bringing children into society as single parents because of varing reasons (I think). Less men and women in the USA are willing to make marriage committments, especially so, if there is a partner with wealth that has been accumulated prior to the marriage.

The USA legal system is not a friendly harbor for men in terms of asset distribution, property settlements and child custody. More people in the USA are chosing (as a personal decision) to remain single (both men and women) in order to better control their own finances and retain custody of their children as opposed to putting all at risk in the USA legal system and a vindictive spouses attorney whose job it is to separate all the finances and custody from the other spouse. The FARC or ELN might treat you better.

As tough as the USA marriage laws are Colombia has one better, being that there is just a two year window before two people living together are married (common-law marriage). No formal cerimony is necessary you are married as a matter-of-law. No worry about counting days as someone will remind you. jajjaa

When the language barrier collapses and the honeymoon is over we wakeup in the reality that (if fact) we are all the same people. Only the names and nationalities were different as the illusion is now gone and we can now clearly see what was obscured before. The spouse that you thought was "far less materialistic, more passionate and kinder" will, as you find a common language, become more like the last one you were involved with regardless of country or citizenship especially if you bring them to your country of residence. They too will adapt to their new culture just as your ancestors adapted to theirs when they immigrated.

Governments draw lines called borders and make laws that separate us but we are all the same people just look, talk and maybe dress a little different.

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liquidlove says on Jul 31, 2004, 13:13:

... metaphors like :
If you are not happy where you are coming from you won't be happy where you are going" or the "Grass always looks greener on the other side of the street".

are very powerful because they invoke some sense of deja vu even though you've never actually looked that closely at your neighbours lawn. But answer this, when you look at life in Colombia--the sights, sounds, complaints, sources of pleasure and pain-- how different is it from here, Canada?
To say the grass is the same on both sides, (I'm sure some Columbian has grass the same color as mine) is just too simple. Life is so deeply more dimensional than that. And I know millions of people can tell you they moved from one city, culture, environment etc… to another and found something there they could never find where they came from.

"The divorce rate would be higher in Colombia if the income levels where the same as the western countries (higher but not as high as western countries)"

That’s a big “if” …NO?
Where do you get that from? With insight like that, you could make a killing on the nyse!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 31, 2004, 13:44:

common-law marriages are becoming much more popular in Colombia too. I didn't know about that two-year window, but it seems reasonable. Do common-law marriages have the same legal benefits as church/registered marriages? How does that work in practice? Do the children of common-law parents inherit both parents? What happens when couples split up? How do they split the assets and properties?
Another piece of trivia that I found interesting is that when a woman marries in Colombia she continues to use her maiden name in all legal aspects. That Sra. de Fulano is just a social custom. Also, the children will have both their parents' last names.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Dan says on Jul 31, 2004, 13:49:

maiden name just thought of a question when you (Desideria) mentioned the maiden name... Do women in Latin Countries change their last names as is done in the US when getting married? What is the common practice on this? what abought US/COL marriages?

God Bless America!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 31, 2004, 14:03:

yes and no The common social practice is retain your maiden name and add de plus your husband's last name....like for example: say Claudia Gutierrez Alarcón marries John Smith: she will be called Claudia Gutierrez de Smith. The maiden name that is retained is the first(paternal) of the two last names, the maternal surname is dropped. In all legal papers she will, however, retain her identity with her two maiden last names (for example, Gutierrez Alarcón). Most Colombianas when they marry foreigners adapt to the new environment taking just their husbands last name. A totally weird custom for most Colombianas would be that one so common in USA: being called "Mrs. John Smith".

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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pointofview says on Jul 31, 2004, 14:17:

common-law marriages They have exactly the same legal benefits are maybe even more in the event that no "pre-neputal or post-neputal agreement" exists. If you are going to live together for two years or more and want to separate your assets, you better at least get married in a Notoria with them (the Notoria or an attorney) drafting the pre-neputal agreement (becoming more common practice) in spanish and english (if you are not bilingual).

Any couple that is has a common-law marriage would be treated as legally married in a divorce proceeding or property settlement. That's my understanding. Me, I am a days counter !!!!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 31, 2004, 14:30:

so how many days do you have left? Thanx for the info, point.
cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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pointofview says on Jul 31, 2004, 15:22:

Liquid Love "But answer this, when you look at life in Colombia--the sights, sounds, complaints, sources of pleasure and pain-- how different is it from here, Canada?"

I cannot answer that question because I do not wear your shoes, Canada is huge and more sparsely populated than Colombia. I have certainly have traveled though western Canada (but not eastern) many times, spending most of time in Victoria and Vancouver, British Colombia and driving the Alcan Highway. I have lived in 65 degrees below zero and raced in dog sled races with a team (11) dogs in Dawson City, Yukon Territory and Alaska. Boating the inside passage from Vancouver to Alaska. I prefer the weather of Medellin to that of Alaska or northern Canada. jajajjaja

I am just saying that people are the same everywhere changed only by their environment, governments and other surrounding influences. I have found many positives that outweigh the negatives for living in Colombia. I have found by personal experience that you cannot import the Colombian culture to the USA so I choose to live where it exists and enjoy it. My first girlfriend was an Athabasken Indian from the interior of Alaska and there have been many more relationships since then but they were all the same, just different names, regardless of countries of origin. Sure some had better points and worse points but on average they were the same. I would hate to guess what they might say about me. jajajjaja

Colombians moulded by generations of hard work, struggle and close family ties are a little different than the north american counterparts who come by material things a lot easier with less struggle and scarifice. The sights, sounds, complaints, sources of pleasure and pain are no different in Canada than Colombia only the dimensions of each.

It's said that it takes a Village to raise a child but in Colombia it takes four working family members to keep a roof over their head, food on the table and basic necessities (for most families). That bid for survival brings family and friends close together no matter what country they live in.

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asmith says on Jul 31, 2004, 16:30:

yes and no Dear Ms Desideria: My wife who is from Cali choose to use my last name and use her maiden name as her second name. I did not request her to do so, she wanted to become an American Citizen in all senses.I believe that the womens lib movement has created a serious devide within our culture. At this time or in the future ,I would never consider a North American woman as my partner.Latin American women are most interesting, I will not settle for less. Oh yes, I am proud that I am a real American.

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asmith says on Jul 31, 2004, 16:44:

Dear Mr Hollywood: How do you know that the gentelman who was bashing American Women is a loser????? Or are you just assumeing that???Perhaps, you should look at the women of America and , more importantly, why is this so only concentrated in a minority of the States? If I may remind you, perhaps you should look at our divorice rate, that should give an indication. Please be advised, we have brought our problems upon ourselves.

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utopiacowboy says on Jul 31, 2004, 19:48:

Common law marriage also exists in many of the states in the United States. It is alive and well in Texas.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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ShazCas says on Aug 1, 2004, 02:49:

Surnames after marriage Desideria and Dan, I thought you would be interested to know that they've know actually dropped the "DE" in a woman's married surname as it means "belonging to" in a sense, and Colombian women didn't like that at all. This is how surnames work.

Jose Gutierrez Sanchez marries Maria Hernandez Barrera.

Jose's name stays the same, but Maria becomes Maria Hernandez Gutierrez.

They have two children:
Liliana Gutierrez Hernandez and Luis Gutierrez Hernandez.

When Liliana marries, her mother's surname will be lost, but when Luis maiires, it won't.

Informally, people only tend to use their first surname, or sign their names like so:
Maria Hernandez B.

When I told my female friends in Colombia that most women in my country take on their husband's surname and lose their own completely, they were horrified, and said they would never lose their identity like that. When I got married to my Colombian husband, I was happy to lose my surname and take his first surname, mainly because his sounds so much better than mine!! ;-)

Most of his family thought that that was very strange, and some of my husband's male Colombian friends joked that I was very clingy as I even took his surname. They thought it was pretty scary! But there you go, every culture (and person) is different.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 1, 2004, 03:40:

surnames I guess I wasn't the only one who thought a Spanish surname sounded better than mine (a totally unpronouncable if you're not a native Finn). The funny part is that when I registered my marriage in Finland I somehow acquired my husband's both surnames, thus my "official" surname (as shown in my passport) is actually my husbands both surnames. I thought it sounded fine, so I didn't bother to go through the hassle to get it straightened out.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Dan says on Aug 1, 2004, 05:40:

I guess this will be something interesting when I get married soon. I know my girlfriend said she doesn't like the first of her last names for a reason I forgot, So I usually refer to her with the other one. The last time I visited Bogota, She was with me in the hotel quite a bit and the Hotel Staff just called her Señora (my last name). She thought that was a bit funny to hear that just because it was different from her own.

God Bless America!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 2, 2004, 13:07:

Big assumption "Dear Mr Hollywood: How do you know that the gentelman who was bashing American Women is a loser????? Or are you just assumeing that??"

You know, asmith, I feel pretty safe assuming that a guy is a loser who publishes as wisdom moronic drivel like, "American women offer up a shit sandwich and then get pissed off when men go elsewhere to eat." At least he could try to come up with something clever.

I've dated women from all over the world, including America, and found that they're much more remarkably similar in their needs and wants than they are different.

Your mileage may vary.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 2, 2004, 14:19:

boys and girls I suppose there is a certain segment of society that thinks their problems can be solved by 1) blaming someone else and 2) finding comfort in self-help books.



Men used to heap scorn on 300 pound, thrice-divorced women because the women read in a book that they were all filled with Grrrlll Power and deserved to be treated like princesses or queens.



While the self-help/self-esteem books still cater to a largely female audience, the internet has now given men an outlet to complain about being shafted, not getting the attention they are due, blah, blah, blah, wah, wah, wah.



Blame Robert Bly, he started it all. ;-)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 2, 2004, 15:15:

In your example, ShazCas, you said: "Jose Gutierrez Sanchez marries Maria Hernandez Barrera. Jose's name stays the same, but Maria becomes Maria Hernandez Gutierrez." Is this a recent phenomenon in Colombia? Among my Colombian relatives, none of the women have done this. They did not change their name in any way after marriage. Maria Hernandez Barrera stays Maria Hernandez Barrera.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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lala96 says on Aug 3, 2004, 22:57:

last name e.g.'s Utopia according to my mother born and raised in Colombia women usually didn't change their last names at all unless the husband was well known in the community or from a wealthy family. that is the only time women would go from Maria Hernandez Barrera to Maria Hernandez Gutierrez.

Now this may have changed since the 70's-80's. I have heard from female cousins that women just don't change their names at all anymore.

lala96

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Dan says on Aug 4, 2004, 14:59:

last names I had asked my girlfriend if last names are changed in Colombia and I believe she said they sometimes do, but not all the time. She asked me if I wanted her to change hers and I told her that it was her name and she again expressed to me how she doesn't like her current last name and she likes mine more. So I'm guessing that she will be changing hers... I guess it is just a individual decision, not like women are forced to do that here in the US, just most do it just because it's common practice. At least, I havn't heard of a law where women absolutely HAD to change their names.

God Bless America!

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ShazCas says on Aug 5, 2004, 12:46:

Names It took me a while to reply to this because I wanted to ask my sister-in-law. She said what I descibed was the "official" thing to do, but that many women don't change their surnames, and that the "de" in between the two surnames is sometimes used in a formal setting. And as Dan says, it's an individual decision. In Colombia, it's like the US and Europe, you can call yourself what you want, by deed poll.

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