Some books to read about the armed conflict in Colombia!

corazon en colombia says on Jun 5, 2006, 14:50:

Where to purchase? Where would I purchase? online? only on a special website? in Colombia? Suggestions?

Colombia = paradiso

Colombia = paradiso

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b bruce says on Jun 6, 2006, 00:38:

Not sure about that! I found them in the book store in Bogota's airport International departures side. I have not checked, but I am sure they have a website. They have several books in print.

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Sr Tertius says on Jun 6, 2006, 06:01:

Maribel Mancipe I googled her, but couldn't find anything. Is there a way of getting some info on her?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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platano says on Jun 6, 2006, 07:53:

The books are available online (in PDF format) The website is very vague about who they are, who supports them, etc.
The book War Toys, for example, does not even have attribution. It is 68 pages long and was written in 1999. I didn't see who the authors are. Here is a link to War Toys:

http://www.cas.org.co/informes/informes/wartoys/War_Toys.pdf

But there are editorials on the site. One helpfully identifies Carlos Gaviria as a communist.

The book also criticizes the FARC for forced recruitment of children under 15 years of age but says forced recruitment of children over 15 years of age by the Colombian Army is a "constitutional duty".

plátano

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juancegomez says on Jun 6, 2006, 16:29:

platano I don't believe that your last statement is fair, nor does it properly reflect what the author of the document actually wrote.

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 6, 2006, 20:22:

Like Sr Tertius says, google is no good here, nor Barnes/Noble and amazon.com websites...

But i did run across two others:

Bandits, Peasants, and Politics: The Case of la Violencia in Colombia" by Gonzalo Sanchez and Donny Meertens 2001

and

Elusive Peace: International, National, and Local Dimensions of Conflict in Colombia" by Christina Rojas and Judy Meltzer 2005

Anyone read these two? and your critiques???



Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 24 días...Colombia es pasión!

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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latingirl says on Jun 6, 2006, 21:16:

maribel.. Maribel is my sister in law.
Please get in touch with me if you want to learn more about her publications

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latingirl says on Jun 6, 2006, 21:21:

Maribell's email address try

maribell at blueridge.net

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 6, 2006, 21:45:

The PDF article says the identities of the publisher .. and researcher are withheld for security reason.....in fact, it has no credits at all, not even Maribel Mancipe....that explaing the google and research strikeouts...sounds like it might not be available in the US....

Latingirl...do you know if the above books have been released in the US?

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 24 días...Colombia es pasión!

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 6, 2006, 21:47:

Latingirl...i suggest changing the email address to: maribel at blueridge dot net...so Maribel doesnt get auto-spammed to death...

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 24 días...Colombia es pasión!

"Ignorance is a Weapon of Mass Destruction..."

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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platano says on Jun 6, 2006, 22:07:

jcg, You are entitled to your opinion that my comments were not fair. I can support my comments with a quote from the book which states service is a constitutional duty... and I used to ride the bus with 15 and 16 year old "bachilleres militares" so the Colombian military is getting their claws into these kids before they even finish high school. Right now kids under age 18 are not being recruited for combat but... any fine day the decision could be made to require 13 and 14 year olds to fight and the Constitution is very clear about this fact: "All Colombians are obliged to bear arms when required..." and they may be sent to the front to support the war effort. Everyone is obliged to bear arms and follow the law... at whatever age the powers that be decide.

"According to the Colombian Constitution, “All persons are under the obligation to
comply with the Constitution and the law.” This includes military service. Article
216 of the Constitution indicates “the public force shall be comprised exclusively of
the military and the police. All Colombians are obliged to bear arms when required
to defend the independence of the nation and its institutions. The law shall
determine the conditions for exemption from military service under any
circumstance and the prerogatives afforded to those who perform such service.”

They may be 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or 19, whatever the law dictates, but they are all teenagers.

Huele igual de feo por mas bonitas que sean las palabras (de leyes revolucionarias or de leyes constitucionales).

Es inmoral obligar a jovenes matar a otros jovenes.

plátano

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juancegomez says on Jun 7, 2006, 08:45:

platano Notice this: "and I used to ride the bus with 15 and 16 year old".

And this: "Right now kids under age 18 are not being recruited for combat".

Then compare to this: "so the Colombian military is getting their claws into these kids before they even finish high school".

That certainly speaks for itself.

"Everyone is obliged to bear arms and follow the law... at whatever age the powers that be decide."

That is true. And in an ideal world you would be correct in rejecting that.

"They may be 13 or 14 or 15 or 16 or 17 or 18 or 19, whatever the law dictates, but they are all teenagers."

People 18 or older are considered adults in most countries around the world, and are subject to military service requirements were those exist. That is not a Colombian invention and it is accepted, tacitly or otherwise, even in the most advanced countries in this world.

"Huele igual de feo por mas bonitas que sean las palabras (de leyes revolucionarias or de leyes constitucionales)."

Pues que te huela feo es una cosa. La otra es sacar el tema de su contexto. O también ponerse siquiera a comparar las "leyes revolucionarias" con cualquier tipo de leyes constitucionales.

Yo prefiero morir bajo el amparo o desamparo de las segundas, que vivir bajo las primeras.

"Es inmoral obligar a jovenes matar a otros jovenes."

Sí. Sin embargo, la situación no se queda en ese nivel.

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platano says on Jun 7, 2006, 18:01:

Protocol II doesn't limit restrictions to "direct" participation Notice this: "and I used to ride the bus with 15 and 16 year old "bachilleres militares" ".
And this: "Right now kids under age 18 are not being recruited for combat".
Then compare to this: "so the Colombian military is getting their claws into these kids before they even finish high school".
That certainly speaks for itself.

What it speaks to is a process of militarization. You put kids into uniforms, before the age of 18, while they are still studying in bachillerato, and so begins the process of preparation for when they will be ready to go out and kill other human beings.

By the way, juancegomez, how many countries in the world allow kids to wear military uniforms at age 15 as Colombia does, thereby converting them into "objetos militares" in the middle of an armed conflict? As you know, the "battlefield" in Colombia can include cities where these 15 year-old student-soldiers are studying.

“Menores de edad incorporados al servicio militar como soldados bachilleres”
--Colombian Armed Forces

ARTÍCULO 1°' La Planta de Alumnos de las Escuelas de Formación de Oficiales para
las Fuerzas Militares, durante la vigencia de 2006 (hasta-Junio), quedará constituida
de la siguiente forma
Alféreces, Guardiamarinas y Cadetes 3.080
Soldados Regulares e Infantes de Marina 93.422
Soldados Bachilleres 1.429
Soldados Alumnos y Grumetes 4.200
Soldados Profesionales 74.775
Soldados Campesinos 24.852
TOTAL 198.678
MINISTERIO DE DEFENSA NACIONAL
DECRETO NUMERO 1590 DE 2006
23 MAY 2006
PUBLIQUESE Y CUMPLASE
Dado en Bogota, D. C. a los 23 MAY 2006

"Human Rights Watch believes that the prohibition on children's participation in hostilities should not be narrowly focused on “direct” participation. Children who serve in armed groups in support functions are often subsequently drawn into direct participation. This is particularly true in the case of conflicts like Colombia’s. It is worth noting that Protocol II does not limit its restrictions to "direct" participation, but calls on combatants to refrain from allowing children to participate in any way in hostilities.

Once drawn into a support activities, persons under the age of eighteen may be easily drawn into a direct role. In combat situations, military commanders may be tempted to make use of all resources at their disposal, including under-age troops. As military personnel, those under eighteen are considered combatants and may be the objects of attack, even without being placed in combat situations."

plátano

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:41:

The Colombian military and police must have the consent of the parents if 15-17 year olds want to serve in the various civic outreach programs.



www.hrw.org/reports98/colombia/Colom989-06.htm

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platano says on Jun 7, 2006, 19:50:

Let's think now... In how many countries can 15 year olds serve in the military or police with parental permission? How many of those countries have an ongoing civil conflict that effectively converts those children into military targets for armed insurgent forces? Is there any other country besides Colombia?

"... much of Colombia can be considered a potential battleground and child recruits are often assigned to bases in areas where combat is a frequent occurrence. When a Public Advocate’s Office investigators visited a military base in Arauca in 1997, for instance, the investigator reported that soldiers were defusing a truck bomb with two child soldiers nearby." --HRW

plátano

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platano says on Jun 7, 2006, 20:20:

I think when parents allow their teenagers to join ELN or FARC that constitutes parental neglect that imperils the life of the child. The same standard would apply to a parent who allows a teenager to become a military target by becoming a "bachiller militar".

I am also not in agreement with the police recruiting children as young as seven years of age as “little patrollers” to take part in police-related activities.

By the way, there were massive protests against forcing younger teenagers into military service. It was only after parents mounted widespread protests that Congress passed Law 418 in 1997, exempting boys from obligatory military service until their eighteenth birthdays.

plátano

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platano says on Jun 7, 2006, 20:32:

Not too long ago I know you could bribe military officials into not selecting a teenager for military service. The cost of a human teenage life was about $400,000 pesos back then... many parents were thankful for the corruption in the Colombian military and the military's willingness to traffic in human lives.

The guerrillas who kidnapped me were also pleased that they could buy arms from the corrupt Colombian military. I saw boxes of "metras" arrive (this was in Medellín). The guerrillas gave thanks for corruption in the Colombian military and the military's willingness to traffic in arms.

Now the narcos must be pleased to know that mercenary services are also available through the corrupt Colombian military to kidnap businessmen or to wipe out any anti-narcotics police who insist on doing their job.

plátano

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juancegomez says on Jun 8, 2006, 09:14:

Tinto I find it funny how that a few 15-16 year olds may sign up for service with their parents' full, voluntary consent can be so easily equated to forceful recruitment of the same by illegal forces.

But then again, that's moral absolutism over accuracy all over again.

So, since it will make no difference here, this time I'm not going to bother pointing out the details that have been glossed over or totally ignored. Not in this discussion, not anymore.

platano:

"Now the narcos must be pleased to know that mercenary services are also available through the corrupt Colombian military to kidnap businessmen or to wipe out any anti-narcotics police who insist on doing their job."

That's a rather inaccurate and unfair statement too, but once again it doesn't really matter to either of us.

They must also be pleased to know that nothing you've said makes any difference to them, whether you are right or wrong.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 8, 2006, 09:21:

Which number is it? Soldados Bachilleres 1.429

Soldados Alumnos y Grumetes 4.200



Only 1429 or 1429 plus 4200?

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juancegomez says on Jun 8, 2006, 09:49:

Tinto I believe "soldados bachilleres" is pretty much the number you are looking for.

"Alumnos y Grumetes" includes all personnel undergoing training in formal military schools and the like, people that can easily be already 18 or even older by the time they are out, so I wouldn't automatically add up that number without any other considerations.

Btw, consider that there were between ~30.000 and 40.000 "soldados bachilleres" in 1999, most of which were useless in combat to begin with and were thus usually spared such labors by default. Now the number is less than 2.000, which means that the situation has improved dramatically in only a few years.

A recent (2005) State Council ruling has also clarified the matter and limited the work of "soldados bachilleres" to administrative, social and ecological tasks outside of combat / rural areas.

I suppose that platano could once again argue that their participation in such activities and their being present in urban areas at all is morally equivalent to the things that the FARC does with its own "guerrilleros bachilleres", but I've already explained why I completely disagree with that.

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platano says on Jun 8, 2006, 12:11:

Tinto, I realize numbers are hard to come by. But taking the 20 to 30% figures you provide, and going by estimates of 15,000 guerrillas (nobody really knows the totals there either, but I've read from 12,000 to 20,000, so 15,000 seems a safe guess)

That would mean between 3,000 to 4,500 of the guerrillas are children. Given the percentage of the general population who are teenagers that sounds about right.

The Colombian Army, armed and funded and trained by the world's superpower, is fighting a child army of forced conscripts.

plátano

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platano says on Jun 8, 2006, 14:07:

FARC has been saying for ten years or more that the smokescreen of "counter-narcotics" was really "counter-insurgency" and the respective governments finally came around to agree with the FARC.

By the way they are not my "glorious FARC" It would be highly unlikely for a "moral absolutist pacifist" (terms used by jcg but never used by me to refer to myself) to support an armed insurgency in any way.

Another possible explanation is that some portion of the funds destined for military and anti-narcotics operations never actually were expended for said purposes.

Another possible explanation is that FARC support is measured in the hundreds of thousands and not all those kids are forced into service. (though undoubtedly some are and the defectors have gotten great press).

plátano

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juancegomez says on Jun 9, 2006, 18:36:

platano "FARC has been saying for ten years or more that the smokescreen of "counter-narcotics" was really "counter-insurgency" and the respective governments finally came around to agree with the FARC."

There's quite a bit of truth there, but if that were all, things would be very simple...but unfortunately, too much has and is still wasted on "pure" counter-narcotics in practice.

Even if successive U.S. and Colombian governments have always been concerned about counter-insurgency up to a certain point, more often than not, the successful achievement of that objective has not been helped by the current counter-narcotics strategy.

"By the way they are not my "glorious FARC" It would be highly unlikely for a "moral absolutist pacifist" (terms used by jcg but never used by me to refer to myself) to support an armed insurgency in any way."

You haven't used those terms, true, and for the record I have never called you a "FARC supporter", a "terrorist" or something along those lines (there are moral absolutists of all kinds, they need not be FARC / ELN / AUC supporters per se. Your moral absolutism is strongly linked to pacifism, from what I can tell).

"Another possible explanation is that some portion of the funds destined for military and anti-narcotics operations never actually were expended for said purposes."

"Another possible explanation is that FARC support is measured in the hundreds of thousands and not all those kids are forced into service. (though undoubtedly some are and the defectors have gotten great press)."

Those two (and other explanations not mentioned here) are not mutually exclusive, you know.

Tinto:

"Very little arms and very little training in relation to the size of their defense budget and the size of their armed forces. Remember, 60-80% of Plan Colombia is counter narcotics/fumigation and it's only been 3-4 years since counter narcotics and counter insurgency operations were allowed to be mixed."

And even when they have been mixed, they aren't always compatible.

"The blame for this 60 year fiasco lies with the Colombian government, the military and the civilians, but if blaming it on U.S. incompetence increases the status of your glorious FARC, then as Juan says "so be it.""

I guess so. The blame overwhelming lies with our own government and political class, but I think that the U.S. has also contributed, both positively and negatively, to a lot of developments throughout Colombia's history (especially recently).

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Miguel_Clavo says on Jun 11, 2006, 20:01:

Just Finished "WAR TOYS"...Death To FARC and their supporters! Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo...faltan 20 días...Colombia es pasión!

"F.A.R.C..S.U.C.K.S"

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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