Socialist Revolution in Colombia

Chelesupercono says on Nov 1, 2007, 19:49:

The idea is so absurd it's actually funny......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

eywed says on Nov 1, 2007, 19:58:

So let me understand you Morphus, If a fella is lucky enough to go to college start a good business, Hire lots of employees and make himself some good money working long hours away from his family. His reward according to you is the Goverment comes and takes it away and gives it to others who dont work or are drug heads or just plain unlucky.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Medellin Traveler says on Nov 1, 2007, 20:15:

morphus,

You're talking CRAZY!!

I do not agree that it would be great to strip all those peso rich Colombians of their weatlh... most yes, but not my rich Colombian amigos. jejejejejeje

Medellin es una chimba! www.medellintraveler.com

capitan_centella says on Nov 1, 2007, 21:27:

AMEN BAZUCO JOE.

"When you open your eyes, you turn around with the world, But it can change, if you only close it, and see a dream to yourself." Me.

eywed says on Nov 1, 2007, 21:34:

Wow! how can you even think that is right in any way. Take from someone who works hard or who's family did and give it to someone else who is a lazy slug. No way , I could never see that.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

scotty says on Nov 1, 2007, 21:47:

Morphus, come on you don't really believe that do you??

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

Dolfi says on Nov 2, 2007, 01:47:

It would allready be great if the rich started to pay taxes in Colombia, and if the government would take the interests of the majority more into consideration, no revolution necessary.

Buongone says on Nov 2, 2007, 02:01:

Looks like Morph came up with something? A baby troll !

kalder says on Nov 2, 2007, 03:22:

It's an old topic of discussion.

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/does-colombia-need-a-socialist-r...

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 04:19:

Ha ha, I barely remember posting this. A good example of PWI (posting while intoxicated).

Yes, its an old topic but the part about turning them into pimps, whores and beggars is a new idea :)

miamimike says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:22:

I hear GW Bush bought property in Colombia,,,

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:30:

Hows that? He only lasted a few hours in Bogota before they ran him out. He's a despicable man.

kalder says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:42:

Oh no, I didn't mean 'old' was 'bad'. It's very good topic of conversation.

Most of them are pimps and whores already.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

MitchAlvarez says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:42:

I really think that if the current socialist movement in Colombia gets any stronger the USA will have to take notice. They are already monitoring Chavez and the other nations under his wing. It will be intesting to see. Lets see who emerges after Uribe.

incolombia says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:52:

That is what Colombia needs more pimps, beggars, and whores? Don't waste you time on such nonsense.

john_stark says on Nov 2, 2007, 05:57:

Yeah we need one in Colombia right after the one in the US. I'd like to see the guys who run the hedge funds reduced to being crack trannies turning tricks in some back alley.

podborski says on Nov 2, 2007, 07:36:

any idiot can make an entire country equally poor (ruling party excepted, of course), just ask Castro how it's done.

It would make Colombia an even greater paradise for rich gringos, but the average colombian might not be too happy about it when they realize making rich people poor does not make poor people rich.

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 07:39:

Castro es el chulo numero uno

esanch36 says on Nov 2, 2007, 08:23:

then why say stupid things like that morph
?

All right, I'll ask: How come it took three seconds to euthanize Eight Belles, but the Womens NBA is starting Year 12???

Gator says on Nov 2, 2007, 08:48:

Great Idea!!! Lets make it just like Cuba or perhaps Chavez could lend a hand. By God! They would set this country on the right path.

Yo creo que tú no tienes raæon. Ten cuidado no metas la pata.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 09:24:

Yes, like Cuba. One of the benefits is if they ban religion in Colombia they might be as sexually liberal as the Cubans.

b bruce says on Nov 2, 2007, 10:48:

I think morph is just sending out feelers for his new web page
"Socialist and not happy.com/Venezuela

SamGompers says on Nov 2, 2007, 13:54:

. . the social democratic (not socialist) noose is already tightening around Colombia's fat cat capitalists . . . Venezuela . . . Bolivia . . . Argentina . . . .Brasil . . . Ecuador . . . it's only a little bit more time before we see a social democratic revolution in Colombia . . and about time too .. . at least the pimps would pay taxes on their income . . .beggars, whores, neoliberal elites, and others of that ilk would only be "re-educated" . . .hasta la victoria!!!! . . vencermos!!!!

Gator says on Nov 2, 2007, 13:59:

¡Sam, Sam, Sam, do NOT smoke before you post!

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

SamGompers says on Nov 2, 2007, 13:59:

Oh yeah .. forgot to add this:

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 2, 2007, 14:28:

No socialist revolution, but a social democratic government would do much good...and everybody pay their taxes would also be helpful. The trannies, the pimps and other night shade creatures need to be re-educated and put to honest work and pay their taxes like normal people...

Cheers,
Desi
(a dreamer)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 15:22:

I sort of agree, I have always lent to the left ( politicaly speaking) and I heard today on RCN, Uribe wants a third term in office, this is the man that changed the rules to allow him a second term here , but who votes for him , THE RICH in the cities, "nepatism", what happened to the real colombians, campasinos the people that work the land and supply the the produce we live on, unheard heroes, I need to stop now.

tomtom33 says on Nov 2, 2007, 15:28:

When I was young, I was left of center. Now I'm right of Ann Coulter. Where did I go wrong? Maybe we can change things in the US so Bush can run again. Dub is my hero.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 2, 2007, 15:38:

When I was young, I was right of the center. When I grew older I discovered thay my hear was slightly off the center. to the left. I don't think I'll get any smarter with the age. Which is good; I'm almost there.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

britabroad says on Nov 2, 2007, 16:10:

Mmmmm.....but, whether it's the rich or the poor who vote for someone, if it's the majority surely that's democracy? Why not let the majority who live here decide. If Colombia is capitalist and Venezuela is socialist, so what? - provided that's what the populace want and have voted for. I would have thought that the 'camposinos' etc vastly outnumber the moneyed elite in Colombia. If so, how come Uribe came to power by such a vast majority, unless the poorer classes wanted him too?
Colombia has been ripped apart by armed conflict since the 1940's. The present relative peace and security is welcomed by all Colombians, rich and poor alike. The Colombians who I've spoken to also say that the old pre-Uribe system of a maximum 4 year term caused all sorts of problems. How can any governement bring change etc in 4 years? And don't forget that Uribe only put forward the motion to change the constitution so he could be re-elected - the Colombian people voted for this in a national referendum, no?
If a politician is deemed to be doing a good job, and the majority want him to remain in power, why not? They can do that in Europe. Why not here? He's currently showing a lead of 84% in polls.
When, and if, Uribe f***ks up big time, he'll be out at the next election. That's what happens in the US, the UK and any other 'democracy'.

Leave the big stick at home...carry a cannon!

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 17:01:

if you are priveliged with rich parents your education will be better, and normaly you will live in a city close to your school,you may have a hacienda as a weekend retreat, or maybe it might be the income of your family, maize, caña, fincas etc, landlords, land or edificios. Or you might be sent off to the states or europe for an even better education and then you might even live the american dream. If you live in the country side without roads, electricity, education, and every rainy season you fear your village been washed away by floods or internal conflict between many interchanging groups of soldiers because you happen to live their, where is your education your help, do they vote, do they know who to vote for and where.Forgotten colombians that need help ( not agent orange)

poco says on Nov 2, 2007, 17:01:

Quote: I sort of agree, I have always lent to the left ( politicaly speaking) and I heard today on RCN, Uribe wants a third term in office, this is the man that changed the rules to allow him a second term here , but who votes for him , THE RICH in the cities, "nepatism", what happened to the real colombians, campasinos the people that work the land and supply the the produce we live on, unheard heroes, I need to stop now.

In particular: but who votes for him , THE RICH in the cities,

Sorry,, but that is absolutly NOT TRUE,, not even close.

Such outstanding ignorant statements might break the meter.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 17:51:

poco, this is a joke yea, 5 years here I have been very lucky to travel to many places of which many lack electricity, they have water wells and rise with the sun and sleep at dusk, and to me to witness this is a privelige, My eyes are green.

poco says on Nov 2, 2007, 19:24:

Quote: poco, this is a joke yea, 5 years here I have been very lucky to travel to many places of which many lack electricity, they have water wells and rise with the sun and sleep at dusk, and to me to witness this is a privelige, My eyes are green.

Was your mental cognizance impaired during this period?

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

Gator says on Nov 2, 2007, 19:29:

Thanks Poco. If the rich in the cities elected him and he won buy 62% of the vote-Carlos Gaviria, a the left of center hpe received 22 percent of the vote, 22%, that's one hell of a lot of rich people.

"In particular: but who votes for him , THE RICH in the cities,"I don't think so.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

Lcacique says on Nov 2, 2007, 20:21:

eywed said:

"If a fella is lucky enough to go to college start a good business, Hire lots of employees and make himself some good money working long hours away from his family. His reward according to you is the Goverment comes and takes it away and gives it to others who dont work or are drug heads or just plain unlucky."

Just curious, what type of person is lucky enough to go to college? What type of person is in a position to start a "good" business? Do wealthy people work more hours than poor people? If a person works "hard" in Colombia they can advance economically?

I love the last bit that implies that people's poverty is a result of either not working, drug addiction or bad luck. Sure, and wealth is directly related to hard work.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 20:49:

TAKE CARE OF OTHERS, travel outside the cities and meet the real colombians, I live in colombia and watch local news everyday, the BROWN eyed leaders in Italian designer suits leave a lot to be desired, sucking cock and trying to emulate the Bush bullshit, OIL,OIL; OIL,OIL, the second comming, conquistadores otra vez¿???????, rage against the machine, maybe theFARC is here for a reason, I know the paramilitaries are not.

eywed says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:02:

Lcacique- Thats not what I ment at all , What is was trying to say is I dont think it is fair to come in and take away a mans hard earned money and give it to people who choose to not work or use drugs . Where Poverty is a result of many factors some people can over come Poverty by working and choosing not to do drugs and applying themselves. Sorry I dont write more clearly. Now I do believe in a fair taxing system where we all pay our fair share. In no way do I think the rich should not be taxed.
Lcacique- would you like to work hard all day and earn a nice dollar only to have the Goverment come along and take it from you and give it to me a person who chooses to sit around all day and not work ?

Ay Hombe!!!!!

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:32:

Alright, forget the socialist revolution. How about a nice economic crisis like they had in Argentina 1999-2002. It could happen in Colombia too.

eywed says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:34:

How about a beer and we call it quits for the weekend. The rest of the weekend i'm just a gringo playing a little Valleanto on my accordion.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

la campiña says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:36:

the word DOLLAR and the phrase GOD BLESS AMERICA, especialy when the most self acclaimed idiot on earth presumes we ALL "BELIEVE" scares the living daylights out of me.

morphus says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:41:

A beer? I already drank a 12 pack Of Bud Ice. Now its time to gozzle a pint of vodka.

eywed says on Nov 2, 2007, 21:45:

Sweeeeet , the accordion is calling boys , later!!!!

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Lcacique says on Nov 2, 2007, 22:31:

eywed,
I think the government does need to play a role in distributing the wealth more evenly amongst the population. The gap between the rich and poor is huge in many Latin American countries and it continues to grow in the US as well. I would argue that it has very little to do with how hard a person works or how educated they are. I have several friends who are very educated and they continue to struggle to get by in Colombia. That is why they are trying desperately to come to the United States, eventhough they know that they will not be able to work in the fields that they work in Colombia (i.e. nurse, lawyer, etc.). They are willing to come to the states, to work a crappy job like their sister, because in their opinion it is an "easier" struggle.

eywed, maybe there would not be as many drug addicts and lazy people if more people were able to earn a livable wage.

I understand what you are saying though. It is a complicated issue. I simply feel that societies benefit more if a greater percentage of the population have land and are earning a good wage. Unfortunately, this is a difficult thing to accomplish.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Buongone says on Nov 3, 2007, 02:05:

I think the government does need to play a role in distributing the wealth more evenly amongst the population. How do you think this should be done? Never going to happen. Even in the states. Tax loopholes. The rich have the politicians as friends. Kick backs, bribes, etc. They pay the less amount, if any. All over The Americas, it's like that. Probably going to stay that way. Maybe even get worst. It's still better than taking it from the rich, and then nobody has nothing! As in Socialist. One thing tho. Maybe you could get a 55 Chevy !

scotty says on Nov 3, 2007, 02:07:

so you are saying the rich out number the poor and thats how uribe gets voted in??? makes no sense at all, especially since the poor far out number the rich in your country.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

scotty says on Nov 3, 2007, 02:09:

latinos leave the beautiful country to come to the US to work because they have no work in your country and because they see no futures for themselves and their kids in your beautiful country. they dont work for $5 an hour making burgers , the pay at Mcdonalds is $8 starting.
they atleast have an opportunity in USA and no opportunity in their beautiful country.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

eywed says on Nov 3, 2007, 06:27:

lcacique- You still did not answer my question. How would you feel if you had money that you worked your ass off for and the govt took it away and gave it too someone who was lazy and did not think they should work and just looked for a handout. I will answer for you , You would not be happy at all. You know it and everyone on here knows it. Now look what you made me do. I promised myself an issue free weekend and here I am right back on the issue. Ahhhhhhh back to my Accordion .

Ay Hombe!!!!!

robi666 says on Nov 3, 2007, 06:41:

One thing that I would like to see in Colombia it is a government effectively enforcing democracy and free elections EVERYWHERE.
In a different atmosphere, we would probably witness some surprises, then...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 10:53:

eywed: the government in the US does take my hard-earned money right now, giving a portion of it to the types of people that you mention. THANK YOU. I have no problem with it. I'd rather my money went there than to line the pockets of the wealthy who are not in need.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:12:

May I answer your question as well, eywed?
My government does this very evil thing in a big way; I live in Sweden.
People are happy about it. Most of them, Except the very rich, who don't want to contribute and stash their money away in one of the tax-free paradises on the globe.

Normal, hard working people like you and me, don't complain. We don't mind paying our taxes as long as there's free education for our children, almost free or heavily subventioned medical and dental care for us and our children, affordable care for our old people etc. etc. the list of the benefits we receive for every penny given to the tax collector is very long.

We KNOW that part of our money end up lining the pockets of the lazy, no good people who take advantage of the system. That's colateral damage. It's a small price to pay for the peace of mind.

The only people who complain and don't contribute are the top money makers in the country,

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 11:21:

Buongone: I don't know how many '55 Chevys you'll find in Norway and Sweden; however, the people seem to be doing relatively well in those countries.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

eywed says on Nov 3, 2007, 13:14:

I for one will never ever complain about helping those who cant help themselfs , the sick, old, kids. but I will never be happy about my hard earned tax money being waisted on lazy shits who cheat the system. So I agree to disagree if you do. And in no way am I a top money maker. Say you happen to know how to play the accordion?

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 14:34:

No, I never learned to play the acordeón; however, I love vallenato.

I understand your point of view. I simply think that it is more costly to a society to ignore those people than it is to try and help them. Society pays one way or another, it might as well pay in a way that might actually help alleviate the problem (it will not cure it, but it might alleviate it).

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

eywed says on Nov 3, 2007, 15:04:

Ahhhhh now we are getting some where. More Vallenato for the masses. I like it.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 16:46:

That is why I chose the name Lcacique, because I like the music of Diomedes Díaz. Generally, I prefer the older stuff. But yes, we at least agree on vallenato.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

eywed says on Nov 3, 2007, 18:02:

First song I learned on the accordion was Bonita.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Lcacique says on Nov 3, 2007, 19:08:

We'll have to get together, drink some aguardiente, and play some songs sometime.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

miamimike says on Nov 4, 2007, 02:00:

Lcacique says on Saturday November 3rd, 2007 10:53:

eywed: the government in the US does take my hard-earned money right now, giving a portion of it to the types of people that you mention. THANK YOU. I have no problem with it. I'd rather my money went there than to line the pockets of the wealthy who are not in need.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Happens all the time in Miami! Giving money away to people washing up on our Shores from Cuba! When they are over 65 when they arrive, they get Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, Plan Ocho(plan 8) Housing, Federal Senior Housing Apartments for 25% of their SS Check, Food Stamps. It doesn't get much better then this AND these folks NEVER worked a Day in their lives here in the US nor did they ever pay a DIME of Income Tax! Life is sweet for these Cubans! Last Week was Candidate Rooty Ghouliani's 4th trip to little Havana to reassure them this largesse would not cease should they elect him!

"Wait a minute. What did you just say? You're predicting $4-a-gallon gas? ... That's interesting. I hadn't heard that." -- Feb. 28, 2008 --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C.,

SamGompers says on Nov 4, 2007, 07:55:

Not all latinos or colombianos come to the U.S. to flip burgers. This from the New York Times Real Estate section this Sunday:

Foreign Buyers Take Manhattan

. . . . This enthusiasm for Manhattan real estate isn’t felt by just a few enterprising foreign buyers. Real estate brokers say that they are seeing more sales to foreign buyers than ever before and that these buyers are helping to fuel the Manhattan market. . .

Not all buyers are investors, of course.

After Ana Maria Ruiz, 22, who is from Bogotá, Colombia, got an internship at the Colombian Government Trade Bureau in New York, she needed a place to live. Her parents, who run a general hospital in Bogotá, tried to rent an apartment for her, but decided against it because of the costs involved and because they had no credit history in the United States, which put off prospective landlords.

Renting a studio for a year in one building would have been expensive: $33,600 in rent, with half of that amount paid upfront, plus an $8,400 broker’s fee.

“My mother said that renting was like throwing your money in the trash,� Ms. Ruiz said.

She added that her mother, Clara, already had some experience in foreign investment. She is making almost $1,600 a month renting out a one-bedroom apartment she bought near the Louvre in 2006, Ms. Ruiz said. And since the weakened dollar had made the Colombian peso more valuable, her mother decided to buy an apartment in New York where Ms. Ruiz could live for a year.

With help from their broker, Jamie Breitman of Bellmarc Realty, the Ruizes found a $499,000 studio at 145 East 48th Street, with a view of the Chrysler Building. Clara Ruiz arranged for a $100,000 mortgage through Merrill Lynch, where she had a private banking account. Once her daughter moves out of the apartment, Mrs. Ruiz hopes to rent it for $3,000 to $3,500 a month. . . .

full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/11/04/realestate/04cov.html

eywed says on Nov 4, 2007, 13:05:

Miamimike- I was know all to well about the Cubans in south Florida. I was born and raised in Key West , Florida and Worked for the sheriff's office there for 13 years durning which time the Merial boat lift had just happened. I was one of the guys on the front lines of that and the Drug wars in south Florida in the 1980s and 1990s. Busy Times. I am surprised more People from other countries dont go out and get a good sun burn, jump in a small boat and act like they washed up on the shores of south Florida and Claim there from Cuba.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Gator says on Nov 4, 2007, 15:31:

Who was sheriff then in Monroe County? Was it Rick or Bobby

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

eywed says on Nov 4, 2007, 20:02:

William A. Freeman followed by a very short two years of Allison Defore and then Richard D. Roth who is still Sheriff.. Were you down there then Gator?

Ay Hombe!!!!!

eywed says on Nov 4, 2007, 20:03:

Bobby Brown was the Sheriff before William A. Freeman. I never worked for him.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

Robert Jorge says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:39:

I thought about what you brought up also eywed. (Why don't people wash up in south Florida saying they are Cuban?) Because they wouldn't make it 2 days in Krome before people of actual Cuban heritage figured out they weren't Cuban. Just the accent alone would be a dead give-away. 2 or 3 questions, they would be busted.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

goin_south says on Nov 4, 2007, 21:48:

RJ....check yer pm

y, un mil gracias.

juancegomez says on Nov 5, 2007, 10:03:

Like Desi and others, I do believe there needs to be some better wealth redistribution going on, with or without a revolution, but I think morphus described a very simplistic scenario in his starting post.

Even in Venezuela, which is allegedly in a "Socialist Revolution" already, the rich aren't exactly whoring, begging or pimping on the street yet (and maybe many will never be, including those "new" rich linked to Chavez and his government). Not that such a thing is even necessary in the first place, but well...

On the other hand, to say that Uribe is only popular among "the rich" is a bit misleading, since even the higher social classes aren't monolithic...plus there are plenty of poorer people who support Uribe, regardless of whether it might be in their best interest to do so or not. This doesn't mean I support Uribe, but the lines aren't as clear as they seem on the very surface.

As for taxation, a lot of benefits have to be done away with (or reduced to more moderate proportions) indeed, but the tax structure itself needs to be revised and simplified too. The tax code is a freaking mess right now, and evasion is very high among all sectors (though it's apparently a bit lower lately).

manINred says on Nov 5, 2007, 10:22:

BritAbroad

Well said !

kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 10:40:

Aye, he's a smart lad.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

roquero says on Nov 5, 2007, 10:56:

As a victim of one of these so-called Revolutions [or as we call them "Robo-lutions", I can tell you that they may look romantic from afar, but they never pan out.
My parents and other relatives have told me of several experiences they had in my native Cuba with the current owner of that island
One such incident is really indicative of how these "revolutions" roll out [and probably a good indication of how Hugo intends to "Fidel-ize" Venezuela]:
My Uncle and Aunt were at their house in Varadero, along with my parents and some friends of theirs, when El Comandante shows up univited at the party.
I'm guessing this is circa 1960, sometime before the Bay of Pigs, and there was a fishing tournament in Varadero that Fidel attended
Anyway, Fidel shows up at my aunt's party with his retinue, and attempts to hit upon a lady friend of my aunt's.
El comandante was known as being muy mujeron, but this particular lady wanted nothing to do with him or his charms.
My Aunt talked for a while with him, because a lot of Cubans at the time were afraid that the government was going to start taking away their businesses, as they had started doing with the US companies in Cuba.
El jefe surprised my aunt by knowing all about my family and what we owned.
He knew all about the history of my family's business, how it was started by my grandfather, who started with nothing, and how he had built up his company into a successful enterprise.
Fido told my aunt not to worry, that my grandfather and uncles had nothing to fear from him.
He said he knew that my family achieved their success through the fruits of their own labor, and the people who the Revolution was going after were not them, but the "latifundistas" who exploited people through their mass land holdings.
My uncle told me that shortly after that encounter, a government henchman walked into the offices of my family's business in Havana, and told him to get out, that his business now belonged to the government.
I would really recommend the book "Manual del Perfecto Idiota LatinoAmericano", which does a good job of defrauding these so-called revolutionaries and their illogical rationales.
Colombia doesn't need a Chavez- maybe a Lula would do the country some good.
At least Uribe has brought some measure of security to the country, more so than I see in my travels through South America in countries like Brasil and Paraguay.
[talk about insecurity- a friend of mine in Asuncion has had his cell phone robbed 5 times in the past 2 years- another friend recently suffered a home invasion from 2 armed thugs- many Paraguayans I talked to longed for the days of the old caudillo Stroessner, when they could leave their doors unlocked without any worries]

morphus says on Nov 5, 2007, 11:36:

I know a Cuban guy in Miami. His father was executed by Fidel and his boys back in 1960. He still has the death order certificate signed by Che Guevara himself. Theres still a lot of hatred left.

roquero says on Nov 5, 2007, 11:50:

One of my Uncles who stayed behind and served in Castro's government was a friend of Che's
Che even stayed and slept at his house when he visited Pinar del Rio
Another Uncle from my mother's side told me of how Che executed one of his best friends
That uncle's friend was involved in the anti-Castro Underground, got caught, and was sentenced to die by firing squad in a week's time
The wife of the accused went to see Che to plead for his life
She got an audience with el Che, and said to him: "Please Comandante Guevara, do not execute my husband, jail him for life if you must, but spare his life"
Che smiled at her and said, "Señora, I understand the anguish you must be going through. I'll tell you what, I will end that anguish."
Whereupon he called his aide and said "Bring the prisoner out now"
The wife thought her husband was being spared, but it turned out that Che had the man bought out and executed in front of her.
After the execution, Che smiled at her and said- "See? Now you don't have to wait anymore- I saved you the grief of waiting!"
From what I've heard of those who knew him, that was a side of Che that doesn't get played up in all the romantic revolutionary mythology- his sanguinary, bloodthirsty cruelness.
Another Uncle who served in the ministry that dealt with banking told me of a meeting shortly after the revolution triumphed, where Fidel gathered the ministers along with the honchos of the revolution together and proclaimed- I need to appoint a new minister, who here is an "economista"?
Che raised his hand
Fidel looked surprised and said- "Che, I didn't know you were an economista!"
Che said,
"Oh, I thought you were asking for a comunista"
With that Che was made head of banking and the peso bore his signature from then on.

kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 11:57:

Murderous toad, that Che.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

elmodefoque says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:34:

Sorry but I find the anti Che stories very hard to believe.
Listen, Che came from pretty wealthy family in Argentina, why the FOK would he leave all the comforts of home to get shot at in the hot steamy jungles of Cuba and then Bolivia unless you have something very few men have, integrity and cojones mixed with a sense of adventure and tad bid of suicidal tendency.
All my life I always had integrity, I love defending the underdog, but only behind a key board. What I’m lacking is cojones, LOTS of cojones.
It is impossible to put down a man that has giving his life fighting for others.
And please no stories about my father’s aunt’s best friend from down the street heard from the carnicero that che did this and che did that....
What is indisputable is that Che is dead, killed while fighting a war that was not his, that is a FACT NOT HEAR SAY and few men are willing to lay down their lives unless is for family.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:43:

A lot of men have left comfort behind to get shot at for a lot of reasons- political conviction, boredom, neurosis. None of which are necessarily good and noble.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

elmodefoque says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:45:

kalder, right at this moment I'M BORED SHITLESS AND NEED TO GET CHUCHA PRONTO but i'll be damn if i'm gonna go the the middle of the jungle to fight other modefoques war
thank you and nighty nite

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

eywed says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:50:

Elmo you surprise me. You say "few men are willing to lay down their lives unless is for family". There are alot of great folks in our Armed forces that would disagree with you and have laid down their lives for you and me and the rest of our great country.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

kalder says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:50:

Have a wank and a cup of cocoa.

That'll sort you out.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 5, 2007, 12:52:

Don't worry, Elmo. While a couple of U.S. military service units have raised the maximum age you can enter as a "newbie" to 42, at 95 you're untouchable.

Lcacique says on Nov 5, 2007, 13:38:

While I wouldn't claim to be a supporter of Fidel and Che, combined they have been responsible for far fewer deaths than many of our democratric presidents, even with Fidel being in power for several decades. In addition, the US government has to take responsibility for the path that Cuba took in the sense that pre-revolution it supported and benifited from a repressive regime (essentially playing the role of empire through the Platt Amendment) and post-revolution by pushing Cuba farther to the left, regardless of the degree to which Fidel was a supporter of communism. The US had options, they did not take them and as such Cuba had one other choice in a world that was bipolar at the time. Not to mention, that the US has also played a role in insuring that the revolution is "unsuccessful."

While their are many Cubans who hate the two, their are just as many that continue to love them (despite the fact that Cuba has been in shambles for decades).

Sadly, the Miami cubans believe that one day they will be able to get their properties back. I doubt the day will ever come...One, Raul isn't going anywhere. Two, the Cubans on the Island aren't going to just hand it over. Three, their are probably a number of gringos that they'll have to compete with for the land.

As for failures with Revolutions in the region, it is hard to distinguish if they failed because of their own shortcomings or if they failed as a result of severe pressures from the neighbor to the North. It takes time for new systems to become efficient, imagine having the most powerful country in the world continually trying to destabilize your inexperienced government. And the alternatives have generally been far worse: Sandinistas or Somozas; Allende or Pinochet; Arbenz or a series of brutal right-wing military governments. Don't pretend that it is all black and white.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Chelesupercono says on Nov 5, 2007, 13:59:

Fidel has survived due to the disastrously ineffective trade embargo on Cuba.....the common Cuban has been the only one to suffer......another example of failed U.S. foreign policy.....historically left wing regimes never last to long in Latin America except when the U.S. wants them to.....

As far as sharing the wealth...well, you never hear about the biggest problem facing mankind.....over-population!!!! In 50 years it will more than double.....you cannot create enough wealth, jobs, etc. to make up for that......global warming and poverty are way down on the list....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

toneloc24 says on Nov 5, 2007, 14:40:

Not even sure whay I'm entering this fray, but whatever. History has proven this statement false.

"Sadly, the Miami cubans believe that one day they will be able to get their properties back. I doubt the day will ever come...One, Raul isn't going anywhere. Two, the Cubans on the Island aren't going to just hand it over. Three, their are probably a number of gringos that they'll have to compete with for the land."

Ahhhh.....Israel ring a bell? Anything's possible where there's hope and a lot of money.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

toneloc24 says on Nov 5, 2007, 14:40:

Not even sure why I'm entering this fray, but whatever. History has proven this statement false.

"Sadly, the Miami cubans believe that one day they will be able to get their properties back. I doubt the day will ever come...One, Raul isn't going anywhere. Two, the Cubans on the Island aren't going to just hand it over. Three, their are probably a number of gringos that they'll have to compete with for the land."

Ahhhh.....Israel ring a bell? Anything's possible where there's hope, will, and a lot of money.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Chelesupercono says on Nov 5, 2007, 14:49:

History has proven this statement false. - toneloc24

I beg to differ, the Iron Curtain fell without a shot......but with a ton of trade in goods, ideas and communication......the Germans more then the rest of Europe by far.......as far as most of the U.S. Cubans they are full of crap and were for the most part Bautistas to start with so what rights do they have in Cuba?......to be shot!

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

toneloc24 says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:06:

Hey man...lol.....I'm part-Cuban, and I agree with you. BUT, stranger things have happened. Like, moving and exterminating a population right off the land they've lived on for years, then being outraged when what's left revolts. Sound familiar???

The Miami Cubans are 100% fos, but they wouldn't be the only ones like that, with a false, but strong, sense of entitlement. I mean, for fuck's sake, they changed the application of the immigration code in South Florida to accomodate these folks.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Lcacique says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:13:

I agree chele; the US essentially made Fidel stronger and Cuba weaker.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Chelesupercono says on Nov 5, 2007, 15:14:

I have been to Cuba several times and just loved the country and the people.....but the system sucks, I will not return until there is freedom.......peace brother

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

toneloc24 says on Nov 5, 2007, 16:28:

I understand you POV. Fortunately, and unfortunately, I gotta go back to trace my grandmother's roots, whether Fidel or Raul or a US territory.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Lcacique says on Nov 5, 2007, 22:02:

I would love to see a TRULY FREE Cuba.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

eywed says on Nov 5, 2007, 22:07:

31 years I lived 90 mikes from Cuba. Heard so many good stories about Cuba Some bad ones too. Lots of my friends are Cuban and I hope in my day, before I'm too old I want to visit a free Cuba.

Ay Hombe!!!!!

toneloc24 says on Nov 6, 2007, 08:13:

"I would love to see a TRULY FREE Cuba."

What people don't understand is, when the Castro boys are gone, do you really think Cuba will be "free"? US corporations and developers already have contingent deals in place for that time. It won't be free, just fair game to be exploited by outsiders.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:55:

If leftist Latin American regimes had been democratic and not in the pocket of the evil Soviet Empire, I wonder if the US government would have tried to have undermined them so assiduously?

Britain was a loosely social democratic society from 1945-1980. Welfarist, high taxation, large parts of the economy state-controlled. Leftist. The only trouble the Yanks gave us was when we had the impertinence to try hang on to a bit of our Empire. Guess they wanted to be the only sheriff in town. However, by and large, they were our mates.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:55:

Double post.

It keeps doing that :(

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

morphus says on Nov 6, 2007, 10:59:

Why wait? As a tourist you have more freedom in Cuba than U.S.

slguy says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:14:

"I beg to differ, the Iron Curtain fell without a shot......but with a ton of trade in goods, ideas and communication"

RR simply outspent the Soviet Union into oblivion. The Russians couldn't afford the defense spending they felt was necessary to keep pace with the US - and RR knew this. He spent enough on defense (does anyone REALLY believe that RR thought "Stars Wars" was a viable technology any time soon?) to force the Soviet Union into bankruptcy, even with their penchant for making all their comrades work for practically nothing.

Once the citizens of the Soviet had had enough of their misery, they changed things- and yes- with trade and free exchange of ideas, concepts foreign to most leftist governments.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:32:

SlyGuy - tough talk, ignoring the media and deploying Pershing missiles to Germany helped, too.

;-)

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:44:

That is my point toneloc24.

Kalder: LAtin American leftist movements were rarely aligned with the Soviets. Once they started carrying out reforms, especially those that challenged property ownership they were met with strong opposition from the US; as a result, in order to continue their projects they were forced to move towards the Soviet Bloc for assistance. In many cases the local communist parties did not support the leftist political groups in power.

Bautista's government had stronger trade relations with Russia than Castro's did in the initial stages of the revolutionary government. Allende's government wasn't communist, the country had a mixed economy (some public ownership, some mixed ownership, and mostly private ownership of small properties and industries). The Sandinistas were a coalition of different groups and they didn't align themselves with Russia until the US started funding the contras and wiping out their oil refineries. In addition, if Reagan was correct that they were a totalitarian copycat of the Soviets, they would not have stepped down peacefully when they lost the elections and they would have continued to carry out guerilla operations. This did not happen because they believed in the legitamacy of the parliamentary government that they set up after the fall of Somoza.

Guatemala and Chile were democratic. And Nicaragua became democratic once it overthrew the Somoza regime.

US aggression towards these countries is all about property ownership. It is hard to classify most of the leftist goverments of Latin America as communist or in the pocket of the Soviet Union.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:56:

Lcacique

You make some very interesting points.

I'll try to read up on this issue more.

The Allende business strikes a chord. Even if he was an old school Marxist, replacing him with that evil cunt Pinochet was unforgiveable.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

kalder says on Nov 6, 2007, 11:58:

My contempt for the Tony Blair government sank to unimagined nadirs, when they didn't extradite that evil old mummy to Spain.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

Sr Tertius says on Nov 6, 2007, 13:00:

And don't forget about Arbenz in Guatemala:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobo_Arbenz_Guzmán

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 13:28:

Allende may have had marxist tendencies, but he also allowed for quite a lot of private ownership.

You are right about the Pinochet BS...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

toneloc24 says on Nov 6, 2007, 14:26:

Lcacique - Great points.

Any US citizen who understands the underlying tone of the US rhetoric towards Chavez understands what's really going on. Property ownership, esp. oil. We (the USA) might be his largest customer, but we can be easily replaced by more than a few willing countries. He knows that, and we know that. Kinda hurts the position of strength of the USA when the latest oilfields were discovered. Calling him a socialist or a communist rings hollow when China is a major business partner with the USA.

We can do business with Cuba tomorrow. However since Castro wouldn't kiss ass, as well as outsmarted US-sanctioned invasion attempts and subversive actions, we decided the policy would be to punish the entire island.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

slguy says on Nov 6, 2007, 14:56:

Outsmarted US-sanctioned invasion attempts????? While it was nothing to be proud of, the Bay of Pigs failed because Kennedy refused the air support the exiles has expected/been promised. Had nothing to do with Castro outsmarting anyone.

You HONESTLY believe Castro could outsmart US military power?????? If all these diatribes about US imperialism were true, the US would have flicked Castro like a pesky fly, long ago.

Revisionist history is sooo amusing.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 14:59:

If a country carries out such reforms and they prove to be beneficial, the US loses out on their economic domination of the region because other countries would be likely to follow the lead of their neighbors and pursue more mixed economies. (By the way, don't we have public schools in the US? Are we communists? Of course not!). Guatemala is a disgusting case. The United Fruit Company practically owned the country, and when they lost properties that they were not even using there was hell to be paid. Conveniently, they had former employees in Washington (Allen Dulles was head of the CIA and his brother was Secretary of State). And the rest is history. Of course Allen was carrying out these types of operations all over the place.

Agreed toneloc24, it is hilarious that we do business with China but not Cuba. Who represents a greater threat (I'm not implying that China is a threat)? We also have had no problem dealing with the Socialist countries of Europe. Why? Because they are only Socialist in the sense of Health, Education, etc. and not in the sense of property ownership.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 15:19:

Even with the air support the US was stupid enough to believe that the Cubans would rise up against Castro. This was one of several fatal mistakes that the idiots in Washington made, they did not have any understanding of the situation on the ground. This point has now been acknowledged repeatedly by Arthur Schlesinger Jr. and Richard Goodwin of President Kennedy's inner circle. They had no clue at the time. Goodwin has gone on to point out that it is good that the Bay of Pigs failed for this reason. The Cubans would've fought back and the US would've sent troops, resulting in thoudsands of deaths. He concludes that it would have been America's version of Hungary.

Castro was so popular with the people that he armed them! That would have been an insane move if he didn't have massive support from the population. So, I would say that Castro was a pretty bright fellow. He knew the US was coming. He knew he needed armed support. And he found a willing army in the citizenry which strengthened the ties between the revolutionaries and the pueblo. In addition, Che knew the kind of shit that was coming because he himself witnessed the US led coup of Guatemala. The boys were prepared and the US was overconfident from all of their previous coups.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 15:27:

As for US imperialism, the country can not go around beating people with a stick for obvious reasons. That supposedly is what the communists do; therefore, the US has always utilized economic warfare (i.e. when Nixon demanded that the CIA and others "make the economy of Chile scream") and counter-insurgency groups.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

toneloc24 says on Nov 6, 2007, 16:48:

Slguy = guy who drinks kool aid.

Revisionistist history??? Try facts, like the CIA documents recently released. But, I guess you don't read. Drinking Kool Aid's easier.

Quick retort, then I'm done. You can blame Kennedy all you wish. In a staredown with Russia, he didn't blink, nor fire a shot, nobody died, and his point was made. Revision that, why don't you. An intelligent president with nuts.

However, didn't Castro get precise intel informing him of the operation AND was completely prepared to deal with it? Air cover was the downfall? How about leaked info?

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Lcacique says on Nov 6, 2007, 17:19:

The Bay of Pigs was a complete disaster for Kennedy; however, as you point out, he nailed it with the missile crisis.

Were we that close to nuclear war? From my point of view, the only reason people got hysterical about it was because of misunderstandings. Not because the Soviets had any real intention of bombing the US. Nevertheless, it could have got ugly and Kennedy handled it well.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Chelesupercono says on Nov 7, 2007, 06:42:

Don't forget that the Bay of Pigs fiasco was set up under the previous administration, not Kennedy's...that was the beginning of the distrust between Kennedy and the Joint Chief Staff.....which wanted to attack Cuba no matter what the cost.....which I think, for many reasons got him killed.....America has never been the same since....sad

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

Lcacique says on Nov 7, 2007, 07:30:

Correct...

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Nov 7, 2007, 08:00:

Where's Gringoloid when you need him? I thought he had this all figured out.

;-)

esanch36 says on Nov 13, 2007, 07:14:

Comparing china a cubs??????? The Chinese are have economic freedom(kinda of) cubans dont......

All right, I'll ask: How come it took three seconds to euthanize Eight Belles, but the Womens NBA is starting Year 12???

esanch36 says on Nov 13, 2007, 07:14:

Comparing china a cubs??????? The Chinese are have economic freedom(kinda of) cubans dont......

All right, I'll ask: How come it took three seconds to euthanize Eight Belles, but the Womens NBA is starting Year 12???

esanch36 says on Nov 13, 2007, 07:14:

cubans*

All right, I'll ask: How come it took three seconds to euthanize Eight Belles, but the Womens NBA is starting Year 12???

kalder says on Nov 13, 2007, 08:02:

China is a disgusting slave-state. It's dystopia. A Communist terror state that has the coldly forensic intelligence to adopt major elements of economic capitalism.

Scares the hell out of me.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

morphus says on Nov 13, 2007, 08:07:

Cuba has sexual freedom. More than any other nation.

Lcacique says on Nov 18, 2007, 23:57:

esanch36, I'm not comparing Cuba and China. I'm just pointing out that is interesting who we do business with in this world...Pakistan is another beautiful country that the US is super friendly with...the US policy towards Cuba is ridiculous. The Cold War is over. And even if it wasn't, Cuba was and is not a threat to the US. The policy makes the US look absolutely silly.

morphus, check out Before Night Falls if you think that Cuba has sexual freedom.

Hoy se nota en la floresta un ambiente de alegría. ¡Y el rumor de ranchería es mas dulce y sabe a fiesta!

morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:26:

The people themselves don't have any hang ups. If Fidel does'nt like gays then the whole island has to abide by it. Fidel is an athiest so religion was banned for 40 years. Thats what happens when one brain is thinking for 11,000,000 people.

morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:29:

Actually, in Cuba you are gay only if you are on the receiving end....LOL

Chelesupercono says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:30:

Castro has survived all these years partly due to the stupid U.S. embargo put in place by the Bautista crooks in Miami. Castro is a monster!!! There is less freedom in Cuba now than ever......For the last three years they have a special police force that arrest women that are caught with any non-cuban, taken directly to prison for one year!! No trail not even a call to the family.....the prisons are full

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

elmodefoque says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:30:

morph, nevermind all that, who's got the best chucha, colombia or cuba?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

morphus says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:53:

I'm still trying to decide. Both are very good.

elmodefoque says on Nov 19, 2007, 04:57:

good to know, thanks!

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Chelesupercono says on Nov 19, 2007, 06:06:

I have spent the last 8 or 9 years trying to decide......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......