Social or Economic classes?

Lionheart says on Jun 23, 2005, 17:17:

I asked the same Last year I was told here vehemently that stratas have nothing to do with classes ... it is only about utility costs to compensate for income differences based on the house values of the stratas.

It never made sense to me, because there was also a direct connection to violence in general and safety for non-Colombians there. In the meantime other Colombians reluctantly admitted that stratas are closely related to a class system.

Strata 1-2 = poor and dangerous (low class and home of criminals)
Strata 3-4 = in general safe (middle-class?)
Strata 5 = safe and wealthier (upper middle-class)
Strata 6 = very wealthy with kidnap risks (upper class)

"strata", and marrying outside of one's strata. Does strata refer to a 'class'?
I have heard this often, 6 sticks to 6, 5/4/3 might mingle, 2/1 are the servants and worse.

Probably several other members of PBH will attempt to rip me a new one now, but I don't care anymore. The strata = class relationship is very clear to me.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 23, 2005, 17:31:

A slight modification They estratos don't map perfectly to economic classes but there's definately a correlation. You're more likely to find someone from a high economic class living in a lower strata neighborhood than vice-versa, for obvious reasons that poor people can't afford to live in estrato 6 but rich people CAN afford to live in the lower estratos.

I know a number of kids from moneyed and powerful families who are living in estrato 1, 2 and 3 neighborhoods in Bogota like Macarena, Candelaria, etc.

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litost says on Jun 23, 2005, 17:43:

The whole "estrato" clasification originally only refers to the evaluation the government makes of property in which you live, in order to establish what level of utilities you have to pay. There is not a DIRECT correlation between the strata and the class (if such a thing exists), however in the everyday language they have become synonyms... and though it is true that generally people who live in 1-2 are very poor, those who live in 3-4 are middle class, and those in 5-6 are upper class and some very rich, it is not some kind of fixed system in which the classify themselves, and for example base the options for marriage on.

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Lionheart says on Jun 23, 2005, 17:50:

you are probably right I recall several statements about living in neighboring areas of higher stratas that are chosen because they are cheaper and still relatively safe. I assume that safety/class differences are similar to other metropolitan areas, some blocks are safe, others are more dangerous.

I think it would be more helpful if maps/charts were available which show the correlation of stratas in barrios. So far I depend on personal information from locals, who seem to be overprotective compared to travel reports mentioned here ... or are the PBH posters just lucky? Dead members can't post.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 23, 2005, 21:50:

If what you were saying was true, then any Colombian with any sense would jump at the chance to have his barrio classed as high as possible. Which is not the case. The people of my wife's barrio, including her, were incensed over the prospect of going from Strata 4 to Strata 5 and fought it tooth and nail. As far as they were concerned it only meant one thing - higher taxes and utility rates. There are maps of Medellin available online which show the strata boundaries.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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flaleo says on Jun 24, 2005, 05:28:

Thanks, but of the other questions, That provides info on stratas, thanks! But what of the other questions,

-Are there four distinct regions in the country (versus 'stratus' in cities/areas), and what are they?

-Are there six distinct classes (with names/difinitions), and what are they? Or is it just a more informal concept, like 'upper class', 'middle class', etc...

And any info would be interesting, for example regarding mobility across classes, or interactions between and among classes, etc.

Thanks!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 05:46:

cowboy, my in-laws complained all the time having to pay strata 5 utilities for their houses in Cali considering themselves not economically on that level. I'm sure many people feel that they are paying too much.

I don't see this strata nomenclature as a class thing, but just a measure of the individual wealth of the families. Money and class is not always the same thing in Colombia. Yet I understand why the system is used for otherwise the poorer families couldn't afford to have electricity and running water in their houses.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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claudia82 says on Jun 24, 2005, 07:02:

Stratas Please .... "estratos"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 07:14:

claudia, yes, estratos in Spanish. It's latin-based word and means "layer". Stratum/strata can be used in English for the system with no prejudice.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 07:30:

This "estrato" thing is very similar to India’s caste system or social racism. The very poor folks are the untouchable and will remain there for ever, something all middle and wealthy Colombia will like to see, so they can continue to enjoy their maids, garners etc. and justified this by saying that at least they are getting fed daily. Guys from lower estrato don’t have a chance in hell to bang broads from upper estrato; they don't even socialized never mind end up in bed. Here in the USA, all I banged were white girls from very wealthy families. Figure that shit out.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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juanalejo says on Jun 24, 2005, 08:26:

elmo Do you even know what the estrato subject is all about, it is a very ignorant commentary on your behalf to compare the Indian cast system to a socialist ideal where the richer estratos subsidize the utilities of the poorer so that everybody in society has access to public services.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 09:38:

Juan, damn, where the hell was I and my family when they were putting electricity and running water in my neighborhood. We and millions like us never got to see any of that, to this day. oh shit, I just remember, my family and a bunch of poor modefoques were vacationing in San Andres, with even took our maids with us.
Next time you fly into Cartagena look down at El Pie de la Popa, try to spot where all that subsidizing is going or I’ll take you to south Barranquilla for a closer look and smell.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 09:51:

Estato Zero Elmo, the problem is that you grew up in estrato 0, where the government subsizes your lack of running water and absence of electricity. For those in 1 and 2, though, it's a pretty great deal. Or at least that's while I tell myself every month as I bend over take it in the culo while paying my estrato 6 utilities, which are more expensive than I've paid anywhere in the world.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 09:55:

millions of modefoques look at people from estrato 1 with envy. you know how many times i heard my grand pa refered to estrato 1 neighborhoods as "donde viven los hijuputas riquitos" he used to say this all the time, in wayuu ofcourse.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:00:

I dunno, elmo I think I'd rather be estrato 0 than estrato 1. The misery and ill-health of extreme poverty is even worse in shantytowns than out in the bush.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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lpdiver says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:03:

Mr. h Ever consider relocating...also out of curiosity how much are you typical utilitiy bills?

T

"cook some rice!"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:11:

Moving I'd consider relocating to an estrato 5 neighborhood if I could find the right apartment.

Honestly, though, my housing situation is perfect in every way except the ridiculous utilities, which is also our fault for insisting on having a dryer instead of wearing damp or moldy clothes that have been hanging on the line for a week.

Water is about $75-100 per month. Electricity is probably $100-125, Gas is maybe $20, cable and internet is over $100 (but I don't think this varies with estrato). Basically, I pay more for utilities than 50% of Colombians earn in a month.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:19:

desi, good point, we did not have to worry about water bills or electricity or even toilet paper. while the rich assholes in estrato 1 bought newspapers to later use as toilet paper , we used hojitas de mata raton (leaf) and sometimes a little stick. i know all this because we moved from estrato -2 to 1 where i was in charge of cutting the paper into 6 x 6 inch squares.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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lpdiver says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:21:

Thanks for the info I am not trying to get into your personal business; but, I am very interested in such things as I would like to relocate to Colombia..."some day". How much are the reductions by strata?

T

"cook some rice!"

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:23:

Estrato 5 No worries, I don't consider utility bills to be deeply personal.

I think estrato 5 pays about 30% to 40% less on utilities.

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viewpoint says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:27:

ELMO Yes you remember when you were young and the only meat (carne) you ever got to eat was when you accidently bit your tongue.

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:30:

man, may times i was so hungry, i used to eat flies. you get like 100,000 flies and you got yourself a nice meal.

I'll get there, when I get there!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:32:

elmo, my father-in-law (estrato 5, grudgingly) used to bitch evrybody about the amount of toilet paper the youngsters used..."two squares is more than enough! Stop being so wasteful!"

Having worked all his life from the age of 14 and having put his two elder brothers through university (he himself had only studied up to 4th grade elementary) he ended up having more material wealth than any of his brothers. It paid off being thrifty.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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elmodefoque says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:42:

the leaf and later newpapers really did a number on my culito, let me put it this way, no way in hell i'll ever be gay. now, i take a bunch of moist hand towels and go thru almost 1/4 of the toilet roll, (god bless america)

I'll get there, when I get there!

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lpdiver says on Jun 24, 2005, 10:44:

And Elmo Don't forget that you can then put all the mess into the toilet and not the trash!!! Flush and it's gone...

T

"cook some rice!"

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:06:

Hahaha I got that all the time, flushing stuff and after a month or two the freaking tubes were clotted... Mr Hollywood, are you sure its 30 or 40% less? Thats ridiculous, I live in estrato 6 and everytime I receive the utility bills I feel more and more dissapointed. Whats the point in saving LOTS of water and electricity when you always have to pay pretty much the same thing?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:12:

6 vs 5 I'm basing my comment on a single comparison with a friend who lives in a similar apartment with the same sized family and similar appliances. His utilities are about 30% or more less. I don't know if that holds true across strata 5.

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Hunter says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:32:

6 vs 5 The differance sounds about right for Medellin.

I lived in Strata 6 neighbourhood, now I live in a slightly bigger apt in a Strata 3 neighbourhood, I pay about 20-25% of what I paid before for my strata related bills.

Cable, Satelite and Internet are not strata related as far as I am aware.

Hunter

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lpdiver says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:34:

Thanks Hunter I am thinking of strata 3 or 4 and so you answered my next question.

Tony

"cook some rice!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:39:

for safety reasons I wouldn't live anywhere below strata 4. I just hate having to watch my back all the time.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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lpdiver says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:42:

I'll watch your back for you. Of course I owuld have to check any potiential areas out thourougly.

T

"cook some rice!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:54:

thank you sir, for your kind offer:)
What kind of things would you look at when checking out the neighborhood for safety?
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 11:58:

Strata sounds like economic "classes" to me.. Poor people CANT afford to live in high strata areas, hence no poor people in those areas only rich. While as Hollywood stated, rich peopl could go slumming. This is just like in US, but instead of paying higher utility(US utlity rates are same for a given metropolis, irregardless of where you live in the city) to live in Beverly hills, american pay higher PROPERTY TAX(which is a percentage based on APPRAISE value), so if the home value goes up, you pay more. In US there's also rich children that CHOOSE to slum and live in "poorer" areas.

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carolain11 says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:01:

I live in estrato 3, it's not the most beautiful area of the city (for those of you who know bogota I live in chapinero cra 7x clle 57), but it's close to everything, i live on the 18 floor with a beautiful view of the city and the mountains, I have a bathtub which can turn into a jacuzzi, washer/dryer, 2 bedrooms, (mine faces the west so I can see el campin), share the apt with my older brother, and pay very little money... the building is well kept, a little old (bout 30 years) but I love it here y es estrato 3!!! I spend about 100.000 COP on water bimonthly, that is 50.000 COP or about 20 USD a month, 45 USD cable/internet,8 USD gas, 30 USD phone, 20 USD electricity, it is very cheap and I really can't complain about the place...

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:02:

The flip side to estratos The other side to the estrato coin is that everywhere I turn in my "overpriced" neighborhood I see cops. Literally, on almost every street corner. When I'm in lower estrato neighborhoods I almost never see the police.

Normally, I'd find a cop on every corner kind of creepy since I have a definite anti-authoritarian streak. But in a place with the safety issues Colombia has, I find it a bit reassuring, as long as they don't turn out to be like the "cops" who took Platano for a two week hike in the woods.

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:05:

to add.. i noticed when i drove to many strat 3 or even 4 areas, they was NO streetlights(??). I remember dropping and amiga off at her home in strata 4 and it was PITCH BLACK! scary, no wonder people don't go walking about at night. Then i drove back to strata 5(zona rosa) apartment hotel and the area hand street lights, even at 2 AM!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:15:

help me out on this one I'm not sure if the strata is based on the property tax value of the house or the total income as declared by the family.

Yes, dark streets can be very intimidating; that's why people who drop me off at the house always wait until I have gotten inside and locked the door before leaving. There are street lights all night through, also a night watchman (guachiman in caleño) armed with a whistle and an old machete, but there are also trees and bushes that can hide a prowler.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:22:

Neither Estratos are declared by entire neighborhoods. It's not about the value of the individual property nor the income of the family. There is a estrato map of Bogota online that the city government creates. The areas are very generalized. I'm not sure exactly what the criteria are by which they are determined, however.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 24, 2005, 12:53:

ok thanx hollywood that explains a lot. The neighborhood where I have my house in Cali is supposed to be estrato 5, but the back part of it is not really anything above 4 or maybe even 3, regarding the value of the properties. I wonder if those poor souls there are paying just as much for the utilities as the people renting my house are. The inmobiliaria made me take out an insurance on the utilities in case the inquilios wouldn't pay.

Anybody know if there's such estrato map for Cali?

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 24, 2005, 13:25:

There is property tax in colombia as well, i believe its called impuesto ...hang on, I swear I know it....Impuesto Predial, it varies from strata to strata and it depends on how big the flat or house is etc etc. I received the Predial slip a couple of months ago and it was for almost 2 million pesos for a year while a friend of mine who lives in a bigger house in 3 strata only pays 200,000....thats a HUGE difference!!!

PS Carolain, I absolutely love your area!!! How can you say it isnt the nicest place? its wicked!!!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 13:30:

is this true?.. i've heard in COL, HOMES are Underappraised(ie, actually SALES price is WAY MORE than appraised value) in order to avoid paying more taxes. In the US, you can't really do this. Because homeowners WANT the HIGHEST OFFICAL appraisal numbers to be able to sell a higer price. I heard in COl, there's more "cushion" in the sales value and appraised valued.

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Cerealkiller says on Jun 24, 2005, 13:34:

Yes its true. If you pay a little extra money when appraised they can declare the place is smaller and cheaper so that your property tax decreases. I believe the person living in the fifth floor of my same building lives in strata 5...go figure!!!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 13:46:

That's too bad.. because that means that tax are underpay, hence less services.. The people benefit from this is the well-to-do, while the rest of society lose it out.

In the US, it varies state to state, but usually the homeowner pays tax on the INITIAL price of the home(when they first bought it), even if it goes up 100% in 5 years, they DONT pay more than the amount of the first year. BUT if they sell and move into a NEWER place, then their amount would change.

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Mike TX says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:51:

That's too bad.. I don't know where you are in the US, but in Texas, your taxes can go up on your property every year. Example, we (my wife and I)paid $72,000.00 for our house in 1997, 2005 apprasial is $89,000.00, and our taxes are based on the higher amount, so every year I get to watch my property taxes go up.

A weakness for beautiful women is my most expensive vice.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:53:

My wife's Medellin Strata 4 (foiled Strata 5!) barrio has plenty of streetlights. Maybe she is overly cautious but no walking around the neighborhood for me after 9 pm.

In the county where I live in Texas, property is appraised at about 50% of its real value for tax purposes. No one would use the tax appraisal as an indication of a property's real value.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 21:59:

Mike.. I know what your saying, my brother and his wife have bunch properties in texas they explain to me like that.. California used to be that way, then we had a vote(prop 13) that locked in the value. This was done because many people saw their homes go up in value, hence higher taxes EACH YEAR! They couldn't afford it. Good thing because home prices in California went up astromonical amount the past 5-7 years. A house you bought 4 yr ago in Irvine was $400K now it's 800K, if you were on a fixed income(senior citizen) you could no longer afford that area.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:05:

I didn't think normal people could afford to live in California any more.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Mike TX says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:25:

caslug Our lgeislators were supposed to have corrected the problem during the recently ended session this year. It was just another showing of the biannual edtion of Ringling Brothers - Barmun And Bailey Circus, The gutless wonders caved in to the big cities and counties again, now we know who they really represent. Maybe we can fire all of them in the 2006 elections. My apologies to the group for getting of the subject. Mike

A weakness for beautiful women is my most expensive vice.

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caslug says on Jun 24, 2005, 22:56:

UC.. it's said that the AVERAGE.. household INCOME in CA(maybe US) for a MIDDLE CLASS family is $100k/yr. In CA, people have to move further and further away from their jobs to be able to afford a house. BUT if you bought the house years ago, you're great and loving it. Smart people(like my neighbor) sold their house(middle class) for $550(bought for $350 6yrs ago) and are now moving to HOUSTON. Where the same house is $150.

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miamimike says on Jun 24, 2005, 23:24:

In Miami, Actual Taxes(valuation) do not match selling prices and when you go and sell, the New Owner usually gets the Shock of their lives.For example, since I bought in 95 iun North Miami, my taxes have hardly risen a dime.With the Florida $25,000 Homestead Exemption I don't pay ANY yearly real estate taxes.Not one Cent. When I sell, which I will be doing in the near future, the buyers will be in for sticker shock.They are assessing new sales at the current selling prices. Between Real Estate Taxes and Homeowner's insurance in my area, some homeowners are paying a combined total of $4,000 to $9000 yearly.This doesn't cover the the Mortage, food, electric, water&sewage. They pay monthly anywhere from $330 to $750 monthly and more if the house is really expensive like $800,000. They said in the Paper that Miami, Florida was No. 1 in the real estate Bubble as the average Home Price is now around $340,000--this gets you an average house-no mansion.AT the same time, we are like the poorest big city in the US and many wage earners are simply priced out of the Market.The only good thing it has driven way up the prices of small condos like I have because many cannot afford these $340,000 houses on minimum wage jobs. Someday it will crash, who knows when.I'm selling soon.

Avatar Legend: Bush "If any of you Reporters are wondering, it was a Size 10"

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Rubiazo says on Jun 24, 2005, 23:37:

estratos in bogota My gf lives in an Estrato 4 neighborhood in Suba. It's very nice and new. She grew up in a house in Estrato 3.
According to here there is really not much difference in terms of security between 3 and 4. But going down to 2 from 3 is a BIG difference. Often an estrato 3 neighborhood can look and feel just like an estrato 2 neighborhood, but the estrato 2 place was downgraded due to high crime (her words to me on the subject).
Another friend lives in Country Sur, which is estrato 2. It is one of the safer neighborhoods in the south though because they have private security dudes around 24 hours.
Hollywood's utility rates sound like less than what we pay in NYC. We and the people and SF pay the most out of anybody in the US and Canada, but people in Europe and Japan pay even more. People in the Caribbean pay a lot too, like double what we pay here even!
Appraised value of a home anywhere on Earth has nothing to do with its ASSESSED value for taxes. Assessed value is much lower almost always. My house here is probably worth about $420k now but the assessed value is around $290k.
When I look in Bogota, I'm definitely going to look in Estrato 3. No sense paying higher everything for estrato 4 or 5 without much added benefits. And I'd have no desire to live in estrato 6 even tied up!

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Rubiazo says on Jun 24, 2005, 23:54:

elmo: I just had roto rooter here for the 5th time in 2 years about a week ago. They told me I had to give up the Charmin or end up competely fucking up my drain line. Shortly after I moved here I got addicted to the Charmin Ultra, you know the stuff in the blue plastic, the GOOD stuff. But it has to go. Good for the hemorrhoids, bad for the line :((

If I do end up buying in Bogota I'm gonna put a fucking bidet in the bathroom like they do in Europe and Brazil. I can deal with everything else about Colombia but not the goddamn TP in the waste basket.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 25, 2005, 00:16:

Desi Trust me, you would NOT want to be poor out in a rural area. It's MUCH better to be even in the worst shanty town. Some Brazilian group once wrote a song called 'quero vivir numa favela' (I want to live in a shantytown) about just how many levels of WORSE there are than that.

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hopeful says on Jun 25, 2005, 01:19:

estrato map FYI, there is a map of the estratos in Bogota at http://www.dapd.gov.co/www/resources/dec200-04.jpg

I think I got the page here.

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jun 26, 2005, 07:12:

"It paid off being thrifty" It usually does. ;-)



Some recent big-selling books in the U.S. with titles like "The Millionaire Next Door," "Rich Dad, Poor Dad" and so on are readily available in Bogotà bookstores. I knew mega sellers like "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective People" and the "Chicken Soup" series had been translated into Spanish, but the personal finance titles surprised me.

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