So I'm sitting with this Syrian guy...

Mr. Hollywood says on Nov 18, 2005, 14:17:

27%? How was your syrian sure it wasn't 26% or 28%?

Spain is filled with remarkable examples of the Moorish period and the influence of Arabic on the Spanish language is huge. I'm sure, given the amount of exchange between Morroco and Spain, that it continues to this day.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 18, 2005, 14:51:

Zero in Arab is 'cifer'. They invented it but they don't call it 'zero'.

Rubio is DEFINITLELY Latin origins. Trust me, I would know more than anybody!!
'Mono' or 'Mona' is the Arabic word for 'Rubio.'
In Spanish they say 'muselmán' for 'muslim'
I think 'aduana' is Latin too. In French it's 'duane' and in Italian it's 'dovana'

When I was studying Spanish intensely I read a book that said that approximately 10% of the Spanish lexicon has Arab entymology.
Portuguese has even more Arabic words than Spanish, especially in the verbs. Apparently Portugal gets its name from 'place of the oranges' in Arabic since they used to import oranges from there.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 18, 2005, 15:19:

taburete
abad
aljibe
alfalfa
alcachofa
tarima
taza
cifra
jarabe
alambique
tambor
azahar
aceituna
zanahoria
naranja
ajonjoli
alfajor
sandia
laud
guitarra
azul
carmesi
escarlata
elixir
bazar
arroz
algodon

we learn that in spanish class in school.........

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cam0940 says on Nov 18, 2005, 15:22:

Hollywood, I don't know that the number is 27%, I just brought it up for discussion. Could be 7% for all I know. This is a new topic for me that I'm trying to dig into, and some PBHers happen to give great detail and explanation so... I just threw it out there, the number that I heard.

Tinto, why does that mean that Cartagena was settled/invaded around 1000 AD? My understanding was that the first group to cross the Strait of Gibraltar were Arab military leaders with North African foot soldiers (Berbers) in 711. There were four cities originally settled (one of which was Kartajenna), but I don't know the dates they were settled. With a little research we could find out when the city was retaken, but I'm just wondering what the significance of 1000 AD is?

Rubiazo, you are correct on cero and cifer. Could you say a little more about the word "rubio"? You were very confident. Enlighten us. Alcalde does not mean "mayor" literally in Arabic for example. It means "leader", but we can understand the etymology there. Of course origin does not necessarily equal direct modern day translation.

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cam0940 says on Nov 18, 2005, 15:29:

Incidentally, Moors comes from the Roman "maures" meaning dark skinned people, as many of the invaders were being Arabic and then further mixed with Berbers and other North African tribes. Thus, Mauratania.

So, you've got the Moors in Spain for 800 years. Undoubtedly you've got mixing. Then you've got Spainiards in the 15th and 16th century running all over South America. Is it not reasonable that some South American life would reflect Arabic origins? You probably have a not-so-small amount of Arabic influence in the gene pool. Maybe it's not all indio or African slave or Nordic blood.

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kernow62 says on Nov 18, 2005, 15:44:

So is she Mexican?

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kernow62 says on Nov 18, 2005, 18:07:

So she isn't Mexican?

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 18, 2005, 18:27:

You guys crack me up.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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juanalejo says on Nov 18, 2005, 18:45:

Cartagena My understanding was that the name Cartagena was adopted during the moorish invasion from the city of Carthage in the north of Africa, today Tunisia.

El contacto de los beréberes con el mar, era limitado al negocio con pueblos de gran experiencia marítima. Éstos, fueron desarrollando, como fue el caso de los fenicios, centros comerciales que en algunos casos tuvieran tanta envergadura que se transformaron en puntos claves del comercio en el mediterráneo y en prósperas colonias. Tales fueron los casos de Utica (1101 A.C), Hadrumetum (Susa) y más tarde Cartago (814 A. C).

Cartago, colonia fundada por Elisa o Dido, la princesa fenicia procedente de Tiro (Líbano), no debe su existencia solo a las corrientes comerciales sino que las circunstancias políticas en Tiro (la amenaza de los Asirios, la inestabilidad política) fueron mucho más decisivas y más reales que la leyenda que perpetuó la astucia de la Princesa Dido y que según se relata; los beréberes le concedieron ocupar únicamente el espacio de una piel de buey, que cortó en tiras finísimas uniéndolas entre sí por un lado para delimitar lo que llegaría a ser luego el territorio de "Qart Hadasht" o sea Cartago (la ciudad nueva). Su emplazamiento era tan idóneo desde el punto de vista estratégico y de la seguridad, que se convirtió rápidamente en un eslabón importante, probablemente el más importante, de la serie de colonias que los Fenicios fundaron en tantos siglos, lejanos de su país de origen a orillas del Mediterráneo.
Desde el siglo VI a.C., la ciudad Estado de Cartago asumió una importancia mayor que se afirmó como una potencia tanto para las demás colonias fenicias como para las demás potencias mediterráneas. Con éstas, primero los griegos y más tarde los romanos, la convivencia era especialmente de enfrentamiento para satisfacer cada uno sus ambiciones de dominio del Mediterráneo. El Imperio de Cartago lo constituyeron bases marítimas comerciales que se extendía desde el Atlántico Norte (las costas de Gran Bretaña e Irlanda) al Sur del Atlántico (costas africanas), al Norte de �frica, España, Baleares, Cerdeña, Sicilia, Egipto. Precisamente la lucha por la hegemonía comercial fue el origen de las Llamadas guerras "púnicas" entre las dos potencias, que tuvieron tres fases: la primera desde el 264 al 241 a.C., la segunda desde el 218 al 201 a. C. y la tercera desde el 149 al 146 a. C. que se concluyó con la destrucción de Cartago.
La desaparición de Cartago puso fin a una organización política que se basaba, en un principio, sobre el poder de un rey elegido por la asamblea de los aristócratas y del clero y más tarde sobre un régimen "republicano" donde dos magistrados cartagineses eran elegidos por un año para gobernar el Estado. Sólo la clase privilegiada del clero y las familias aristócratas tenían el derecho de acceder al Senado, donde se tomaban las grandes decisiones políticas.
La religión en la sociedad Cartaginesa tenía un peso considerable. Se adoraban divinidades de origen fenicio o de influencia egipcia y griega. de los que se destacan Tanit, Baal Hamón, Astarté, Cid, Melquart, Eshmún, Hotermishar. En el Tofet de Salambó, santuario de la pareja Baal Hamón-Tanit, los fieles ofrecían sacrificios (molk) que podían ser tanto humanos (en los primeros períodos) como de animales.

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vladimiro says on Nov 18, 2005, 19:21:

Many words they got from the Arabs aren't Arabic Much of Arab vocabulary came from other languages in the region. They are considered Arab or Turkish in the west because westerners learned of these words through thier contact with the Arabs and Turks. For example, the Spanish got the word Orange (naranja) from the Arabs, but Arabs got this word from the Persian narang. Arab language and culture was enriched by the more advanced Byzintine and Persian Empires they conquered.

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cam0940 says on Nov 18, 2005, 19:36:

Thank you juanalejo and vladimir. These were just the type of comments I was looking for.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 18, 2005, 21:37:

The meaning of 'rubio' In Roman times it was actually a racial slur! Remember, in those days, the big, red-cheeked fat raw meat eating blonds and redheads were generally uncivilized barbarians living north and west of the Roman Empire. It meant 'red-cheeked' and was NOT a compliment.

In modern day Portuguese (at least in Brazil) 'ruivo' actually means redhead and 'loiro' is 'blond.' 'Mono' meaning 'monkey' comes from Latin, 'mono' meaning 'fair of countenance' comes from Arabic, hence the homonym.

BTW Tex-mex is officially considered a dialect, an offshoot of English and Spanish of that region. A lot of Yosemite Sam's vocab comes from Tex-mex (just like a lot of Bugs Bunny's turns of phrases were straight from Brooklyn)!

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 19, 2005, 03:57:

ruby I'm impressed!

Also, juanalejo, lucia and vladi and cam: a very interesting thread. Good background description, interesting tidbits of linguistic savvy.
Cheers,
Desi
(Any good on-line sources on the topic?)

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 08:41:

all words that start with aj, come from arab... like all words that start with h, like harina, horno etc..come directle from latin. the H replaced the f ( forno, farina)

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 08:46:

Tons of influences.. even the american natives influenced castellano... with words like: chocolate, aguacate, tomate, pampa, vicuña, condor.

or from english: futbol, most of the words about informatica..

En abril del 1994, en el X Congreso de la Asociación de Academias de la Lengua Española que incluía representantes de los paises hispanohablantes del mundo, se adoptó un alfabeto de 27 letras que reemplaza el precedente de 28. Se han quitado la CH y la LL y añadido la W.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 08:48:

posiblemente la única palabra que se conoce del libero primitivo es la palabra "Urraca".

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 08:50:

Tras la caída del Imperio Romano, podemos distinguir una primera etapa visigoda . Los visigodos fueron un pueblo germánico que se asentó en la Península. Al llegar a Hispania, ya estaban bastante romanizados, por lo que esto facilitó su paulatina hispanización. De esta etapa quedan en el castellano abundantes topónimos, como son Aldegode (aldea del godo), Vilagude , etc., numerosos antropónimos: �lvaro, Alfonso, Elvira, Ramiro, y términos léxicos referidas a las costumbres y a la guerra, como espía, espuela, parra, rueca, adrede, yelmo,.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 08:53:

hala
ojalá
fulano
mengano
de balde
are also expressions that we got from the Moors...

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Nov 19, 2005, 09:10:

Lucia, Since I never studied Spanish formally even though I speak it correctly I never learned much ABOUT it. Fascinating!

Any words of celtic origin?

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kernow62 says on Nov 19, 2005, 12:03:

That is a good question Desi.

I imagine perhaps a few words come from the Celtic area of Spain, and although those Celts were immigrants from Britain as were the present day Bretons their influence died out in the 7th or 8th century so I think the influence would be minor if at all. Of course "penguin" / "pingüino" is from a Celtic word, some dispute on whether it is Cornish or Welsh, but either way it is Celtic. English has very few loan words from the Celtic languages, primarily because Celtic languages were thought to be inferior. "Whiskey" of course is a Goedelic Celtic word, as is the word "slogan", both of which are used in Spanish. "Embajador" and "Embajada" are both originally from Celtic. I think also that "cervesa" is originally from Celtic.

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 14:33:

Los celtas invadieron Hispania en el siglo VII A.C. procedentes del sur de Alemania. Se establecieron en Galicia, sur de Portugal y en la región llamada Sierra Morena. Más tarde se mezclaron con los iberos en el centro y Bajo Aragón, y formaron una región llamada Celtiberia. Los toponímicos de origen céltico son muchos. Casi todos ellos tienen nombres guerreros. las voces: "briga", que significa fortaleza, y "sego" o "segi" que indican victoria, por ejemplo: "Conimbriga": Coimbra, "Lacobriga": Carrión, "Seguvia": Segovia. La palabra "dunum", es sinónimo de "briga".

No habia unidad linguistica antes de la llegada de los romanos...El Vasco es la unica lengua preromanica que aun existe. Sobre el Vasco se sabe muy poco y no tiene relacion alguna con ninguna de las otras lenguas habladas en España. hay tres teorias sobre sus origenes:

* El vascuence es de procedencia africana. Presenta coincidencias decisivas con las lenguas camíticas: bereber, copto, cusita y sudanés.

* El vascuence es originario de la región del Cáucaso. Su estructura gramatical tiene mucha similitud con las lenguas caucásicas.

* El vascuence es una lengua mixta. Se parece a los idiomas caucásicos en su estructura y origen. Incorporó numerosos elementos camíticos de las lenguas ibéricas, así como celtismos y, finalmente, abundantes latinismos.

Muchos Vascos vinieron a Colombia, mas que todo a las regiones de Antioquia y El viejo Caldas, y muchos antoponimos son de origen vasco: como jaramillo, echeverry, echavarria

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Lucia Rojas says on Nov 19, 2005, 14:39:

Lo pueblos preromanos en españa fueron: Los Celtas, los Iberos y Los Vascos

Aún existen en nuestra lengua palabras de origen prerromano, como "barro", "cabaña", "cerveza", "salmón", "carpintero", "conejo", "charca", "perro", "lanza", "balsa" y entre otras. Estas palabras sobrevivieron, a pesar de que los romanos impusieron el latín como lengua oficial siendo esta una de las maneras mas eficientes de dominacion cultural.

Hoy en dia se discute el mismo fenomeno con el ingles...

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kernow62 says on Nov 19, 2005, 16:06:

A bit snipped from the web, this applies more to the later 6th and 7th century immigrants from Britain than it does to the earlier absorbed Celto-Iberians.

------------------------

--Celtic Galica Today
Today, the native language of Galicia is Gallego. It is not a Celtic language, but rather a Latin-based Romance language, resembling Spanish and Portuguese. Although the language of the people is not Celtic, there are groups of people in modern Galicia who see remnants of Celtic culture still alive there. In an article entitled "In Search of Celtic Heritage in Galicia, Spain," cultural anthropologist Elyn Aviva reports:

"In the nineteenth century, Galician writer Eduardo Pindal led a highly successful Celtic revival movement. His romantic epics proclaimed that Gallegos--the inhabitants of modern-day Galicia--were not Spaniards but Celts, the inheritors of a glorious past of heroism and independence. The revival continues. In recent years it has become a mixture of Galician political separatism, neopagan spirituality, and tourist promotion. Posters featuring red-haired kilt-wearing warriors advertise Celtic music festivals, and Celtic-style jewelry is sold in numerous shops. Hotels offer "queimadas," dramatic storytelling events performed over a bowl of flaming liquor, a ritual said to go back to Celtic times."

The Aviva article points to numerous traces of the Celtic culture that remain today in Galicia. Among these:

* In La Coruna, near the ancient Tower of Hercules, the Galicians have erected a larger than life statue of King Breagon, the mythic Celtic king who was said to have constructed a tower in that area.

* Also in La Coruna there is a sixty foot mosaic depicting the seven Celtic nations as points on a star: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Cornwall, the Isle of Man, AND Galicia. (The eighth point on the star is the ancient area of Tartessos in Spain, which like Asturia may too have had some Celtic influences.)

* In 1996, a group of Galicians formed the League of Celtic Galicia to honor Celtic culture in the province. The motto of the league: "A people who forget their origins lose their identity; a people who lose their identity become dust."

* Folk musicians in Galicia play a bagpipe called a "gaita." These Galician bagpipes are often featured at the Lorient Celtic Festival in Brittany.

* Women skilled in folk healing in Galicia, called "meigas," are thought to be remnants of Celtic druid assistants from centuries ago.

* Rural folk in Galicia engage in step-dancing, reminiscent of other Celtic dance forms.

* In Galician folk culture there is a world beneath the land surface where live the "mouros," or the Ancient People. These are giants, dwarfs, and Little People. These legendary characters may steal things from the market, or leave treasures for some people, or punish a person if he claims to have seen them.

* In the Galician town of Piornedo, the townspeople have constructed a spacious Celtic Museum, and they live in Celtic-style huts.

* The "queimadas" storytelling events are a reminder of a time when Celtic bards told the epic stories of a Celtic nation.

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Rubiazo says on Nov 19, 2005, 19:17:

Two more indigenous Spanish words "Jamaca" (hammock)
and I believe 'maiz' (corn) is also an indigenous word. IIRC I think corn was discovered in the New World.

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utopiacowboy says on Nov 20, 2005, 06:55:

Right again, Mario.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Nov 20, 2005, 09:37:

So in Mexico, is it Mex-Tex or do the Texans still get top billing?

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