Six FARC Kidnap Victims Found Dead

Colombiche says on Jan 17, 2008, 14:04:

Bump.

I can predict the FARC supporters are going to come out and say it was the army that killed the victims and made it look like it was FARC.....

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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slguy says on Jan 17, 2008, 14:05:

Bastards.

Yea- let's at least talk to these animals. With all due respect to those who claim "negotiation" is possible - what world do you live in, again?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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NataliaV says on Jan 17, 2008, 15:13:

wow, i am shocked, but not really sure why. I guess I was sorta hoping/thinking that with release of the hostages only more good things could come....what a shame.

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catherine b says on Jan 17, 2008, 15:25:

I'm saddened but not shocked.

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msaucey says on Jan 17, 2008, 15:49:

This is quite upsetting..... and then we wonder why we dislike Chavez for trying to get them off the Terror List....

The FARC are a bunch of cowards, they need to stop hiding in the jungles and come out for a little face-to-face.... a$$ kicking....

The trouble about trying to make yourself stupider than you really are is that you very often succeed. - CS Lewis

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Andy S says on Jan 17, 2008, 16:46:

what sort of operations do the colombian army conduct against them? Do they have special forces in the jungles searching for bases, then bomb the bases or launch strikes against them? Do they use similar tactics to the US in Vietnam such as search and destroy?

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Man Tequila says on Jan 17, 2008, 16:49:

El viento de la noche gira en el cielo y canta.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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catherine b says on Jan 17, 2008, 16:54:

It's very difficult to penetrate into the jungle as the farc have placed numerous land mines as well as other booby traps. An air attack is also "difficult" for the sole reason that farc uses hostages not only as a means of political and economic extortion but also as human shields. Yeah the military could bomb guerilla camps but in all likelihood they would also possibly kill innocent hostages.

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Andy S says on Jan 17, 2008, 16:56:

shit.....of course, the hostages....never thought of that.....has there ever been any large engagements between the colombian army and FARC?

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Sr Tertius says on Jan 17, 2008, 17:12:

"I honestly don't know how anybody thinks dialogue is possible with this terrorist organization."

Dialogue is not guaranteed to work, but it has worked in far worse cases. Look at the paracos: for all their inhumanity, FARC pales in comparison to those genocidal SOBs, yet their commanders were willing to let their arms down in dialogue with the government. Just as another example, I hear from Iraq that the US is not only talking to the insurgency, but actually getting them to their side, and those guys are not particularly boy scouts.

What I don't understand is what is gained by closing the door to dialogues? What is obtained by getting rid of one alternative?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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slguy says on Jan 17, 2008, 17:45:

SrT- ever heard the old adage not to piss into the wind? It springs to mind.

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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tasco66 says on Jan 17, 2008, 17:49:

When are we going to get rid of this Farc plague?

I bet you this will not make news outside of Colombia. Why is that?

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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tasco66 says on Jan 17, 2008, 17:59:

Sr. T the problem with the dialogue is that it has been tried before, with the success that we know…

Once bitten, twice shy

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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catherine b says on Jan 17, 2008, 18:07:

"I bet you this will not make news outside of Colombia. Why is that?"

Two reasons:

a. The media outside Latin America does'nt report most of what goes on in the continent.
Out of indifference? Ignorance? Latin America's not considered "important" enough? I don't know.

b. The farc has been doing this regularly for decades. It would be almost weekly to report the atrocities of farc.

Here's another story that probably won't be printed in English. A pity because turds like Oliver Stone might actually think before they speak.

http://www.caracol.com.co/noticias/534956.asp

Acusan a las FARC del asesinato de dos menores porque sus madres no dejaron que los reclutaran

Las Defensoría del Pueblo en Putumayo investiga una denuncia según la cual miembros de las FARC asesinaron a dos menores de edad, porque sus madres no admitieron que fueran reclutados para la guerrilla.
Según la Defensoría Regional, el caso se produjo en la vereda Las Brisas del Guamuez, en el municipio de La Hormiga, a donde llegó un comando armado y exigió a las madres que entregaran a los dos adolescentes.

Como los progenitores se negaron, los insurgentes asesinaron a los jóvenes y, según los reportes recibidos por el organismo, también incineraron las viviendas de sus familias.

Una comisión humanitaria se desplaza a la región para comprobar la información y ayudar a los afectados.

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Mike19 says on Jan 17, 2008, 18:18:

I live in ny and have a friend in colombia and read about colombia all the time (as well as come on this site). I agree with Andy S to bomb the shit out of certain areas of the jungle...I know their might be hostages there but war is war and it seems colombia has been dealing with these dirtbags for the longest time. The U.S. has the same problem with middle east dirtbags that have no consideration for life.

I hope colombia can find a way to clean out the garbage in certain jungle areas...

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john_stark says on Jan 17, 2008, 19:00:

Been going on for 40 years. Going to continue for another 40 years. Why? Lack of will. There is simply no will on the part of the Colombian people to fight the FARC. The people in the cities ignore the whole thing and try to act like it's not going on. People try (and succeed) in getting out of military service. Oh, they're big on waving the old flag and singing the songs but when it comes time to get the hands dirty then they find something else to do.

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usher127 says on Jan 17, 2008, 19:11:

Sorry my Spanish is struggling.... I assume these hostages were Colombian? Who is Front 48 specifically?

Why might the Farc have done this? Is this standard practice?

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 17, 2008, 19:17:

GIB, at least the FARC beheaded the already dead corpses. I mean, they aren't totally inhumane. They had the decency to simply beat the victims to death first, before chopping off their heads. I am sure that fact can be seen as the FARC being merciful.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Colombiche says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:16:

Sr T -- Like I said, I am all for demobilization. 100%. Take for instance for the 600 FARC guerrillas that are in jail and are petitioning to not be used as bargaining chips, in this case the government should compromise since they are willingly and publicly turning their backs on the FARC. Reduce their sentences, and once they have paid their dues help rehabilitate them. Get as much information out of them as possible, get them to collaborate.

Let's face it, the average guerrillero is an uneducated peasant who probably hasn't even leafed through Das Kapital. Many of them joined the FARC well before they were old enough to comprehend and reason. I bet if the government offered a reasonable deal, many guerrilleros would turn themselves in because they no longer believe in this struggle. We all have heard accounts of how dire nomad life in the jungle is. The cabecillas on the other hand are milking the profits of the drug trade and don't want their cash cow disguised as a "fight for the people" to come to and end.

Results speak for themselves and FARC has done absolutely nothing to improve the living conditions of the average colombian, quite the opposite. FARC has wreaked havoc on the colombian economy and has been a strong ingredient in the catalyst that spawned the paraco movements.

It's a failed insurgency no matter how you look at it. Grant amnesty to those who want to walk away but don't give the FARC and legitimacy.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:17:

AT least the FARC are socialist and egalitarian in the sense that they will kill and maim everybody equally :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:19:

John Stark, I think for once the people of Colombia are repudiating the guerrillas in unison. I think the evens in recent colombian history have been momentous and pivotal. It's do or die.

I do agree however that the average colombian should be more willing to partake in the struggle.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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vladimiro says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:38:

Not to be rude Colombiche, but most countries force people like you into military service. When we moved back to Iran from England my father's passport was siezed and he was forced into military service despite the fact that he was middle class and had an engineering degree. My female Israeli coworkers had to perform military service even though they are educated middle class. If the military option is really to be exhausted then I would think something along that line would need to happen in Colombia. I'm guessing that would be political suicide for any Colombian politician, which leaves the only other option...

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Man Tequila says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:51:

Stop me if you've heard this one.

FARC is said to recruit young people in villages who have little choice but to join, or face reprisals. (They are not likely the only group to do this). If the government made it clear FARC guerillas who turned themselves in would receive no or lighter sentences and some degree of amnesty, and did the same to the 600 farcos in jail to show good faith, would this not help? I understand it may not be easy to leave, and it may have been tried before.

Anyone want to enlighten me? Has some degree of amnesty been tried?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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manINred says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:57:

It is not only said that FARC recruits 8-12 year olds, it is a known fact!

I've researched this and can tell you that the Colombian government set up a program that allowed for the voluntary demobilization of individuals belonging to an organized illegal armed group, paramilitary or guerrilla, and that they would be allowed to give up their arms and enter a program of reintegration into civil society.

This is done on an individual basis, no negotiating with the leaders takes place at all, completely up to the individual to give up arms. It has been tried, and as far as I'm aware the program is still running.

Here are some results:
http://www.derechoshumanos.gov.co/descargas/boletin6-desmovilizados1.p...

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Colombiche says on Jan 17, 2008, 20:58:

There are many ways to contribute other than picking up arms.

I was reading about colombian families that are fostering underage guerilla deserters. That's a start. Cada colombiano puede poner su granito de arena.

I lost my childhood friend Victor in the jungle. He willingly joined the colombian army. He got shot in the leg during a shootout and died of gangrene. I have many other relatives who paid military service, at least 8 that I can count off the top of my head. Not all middle class colombians buy their way out of it.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jan 17, 2008, 21:08:

If a magic fairy made me Generalisimo de Colombia for a day, I would put an end to the category of service that only lasts for one year. I don't understand what useful function those boys perform except standing around in small groups and acting like teenagers. I'd also disband the national police and let municipalities run things. And then I'd make the soldiers sign up for fixed terms (I recently learned they can leave whenever they want after their initial term is finished). And after breakfast I'd...

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OhMy says on Jan 18, 2008, 02:24:

I don't understand this. What do FARC gain from doing something like this?

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podborski says on Jan 18, 2008, 04:39:

keep dialogue open as long as you don't expect any results from it.

Lots of people prefer to talk about things rather than actually DO anything, and it seems this problem is exaggerated in latin america, dramatically so in my experience anyway.

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Albatross says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:33:

"Historically, the US has lost more lives in War, to "other than combat" than "combat", up until the 1980s."
I believe WW I (1914-1918) was the last major war where more lives were lost to secondary infections than to actual combat... at least for the U.S.

"I bet you this will not make news outside of Colombia. Why is that ?"... as tragic as this is for the hostages and their famlies, why would someone expect it to be "World News" ? If 6 people were to die in an apartment fire in NYC, should we be upset that it is not reported in the Mumbai newspapers ? Also, it should be pointed out that if something reaches the Internet, it HAS become "World News"... at least for anyone who wants to know.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:37:

Let's not forget when talking about a dialogue with the FARC that one of the FARC's preconditions is a "demilitarization" of a huge swath of Colombia. That was tried once before, with rather notorious results.

If the FARC really wants to sit down over a cup of coffee, I'm sure the Colombian government would arrange to meet them in Havana, just like they did with the ELN. Certainly Castro could set that up. But I don't think the FARC really wants to talk, I think they want the safe-haven so they can regroup and continue to engage in criminal activities.

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slguy says on Jan 18, 2008, 08:43:

when El Payaso is calling for legitimizing FARC on the world stage - yep- it's relevant, even in Mumbai

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

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Albatross says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:02:

That's not what I said... as you well know.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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SiV says on Jan 18, 2008, 09:39:

This is a terrible thing, but hang on there in the name of accuracy. . .

The report makes no mention of beheading. The article states, ". . .habían sido asesinados a garrote y posteriormente degollados. . ."

Translation: . . .they had been killed by being beaten/ garroted (and here's a bit of confusion in Spanish, garrote can mean a club, or the garrot- a choking wire), and later had their throats cut. . .

Inhumane, all the same. But the article does not mention beheading, "descabezar".

Let's not distort the facts, it only discredits the argument.

Stultórum númere infinitum est.

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Sr Tertius says on Jan 18, 2008, 17:06:

Tasco: "Sr. T the problem with the dialogue is that it has been tried before, with the success that we know…"

Do you mean the actual success in many cases, as in the partial demobilization of FARC in the mid-eighties, the complete demobilization of other insurgencies in the late-eighties, the end of the civil war in a few countries in Central America, and so on? Seems like a positive precedent to me. Now I'd like to know how many insurgencies comparable to FARC have been decimated by sheer force? I can't think of one.

Mr. H: The size of the demilitarized territory FARC is asking for is nowhere nearly as big as what they got under Pastrana. FARC initially asked for 800 km2 in Florida and Pradera, but then accepted Uribe's proposal of only 180 km2--which is now 150 km2 and not in the same area. More importantly, FARC is asking for 45 days, not the long time they got with Pastrana; Uribe agreed on 30 days (because, you know, with 2 extra weeks FARC could take over the country). Also, this is an area of the Central Cordillera that is not under effective control of the military, but where FARC has enormous influence: just on the other side of the mountain is Marquetalia, THE stronghold of FARC. All of this suggests that, as some analysts point out, that the demand for this area have less to do with making any territorial gains than with the very deep distrust of FARC toward Uribe--if something went awry, they could immediately move back to Marquetalia.

Evidently, FARC doesn't just want the swap while sipping some coffee. They want to make a big show out of this, they want to show some muscle, just like they tried and failed so miserably with Operation Emmanuel. They can't get that with secret deals conducted in Havana. I think that's most likely their motivation; the safe haven hypothesis, under the current conditions, is very unlikely.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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billyb says on Jan 18, 2008, 17:49:

Still not convinced, but you make a couple of good points above.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 18, 2008, 20:20:

You make a good point, Sr. T. Why would the FARC want to have a discrete and productive peace process in Havana or Managua when it could get a bunch of free TV time and grandstanding with a big dog and pony show?

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 18, 2008, 20:47:

I didn't even read the article and I based my comment on other's comments. So, the kidnapped were beaten to death, possibly strangled with a wire or like device, and had their throats cut. My bad, not beheaded.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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eywed says on Jan 18, 2008, 20:54:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 18, 2008, 20:58:

Yeah RJ, you should not be going around libeling the FARC by saying they beheaded them, when they MERELY did that other stuff to them.

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eywed says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:07:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:14:

Why not? We can fill in for Cassini while he recuperates from his electroshock therapy

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eywed says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:17:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:23:

I'm sure that would qualify as a humanitarian to him.

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eywed says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:32:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:39:

Ok, I'll try to do my best cassini impression before you take me out, jeje." Why not mods delete uribistas like billyb, eywed and catherineB, all they are do is shit on chavez and mods should delete shit like them because this PBH is colombia only and not diahrea they talk".

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eywed says on Jan 18, 2008, 21:41:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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Sr Tertius says on Jan 19, 2008, 07:40:

Mr H: Exactly. Now the question is, how much pony show is each hostage worth? How much should Uribe be willing to give?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 20:55:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 19, 2008, 21:06:

Damn eywed, for FARCista you make some sense :))

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:02:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:08:

I'm for that.

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:15:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:50:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:53:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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billyb says on Jan 19, 2008, 22:53:

Don't forget El Salvador, they still have troops there.

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Robert Jorge says on Jan 19, 2008, 23:25:

Actually, a lot of the eastern (former Soviet block) countries supported the US and still do in Iraq. Despite what you might think of Germany, the main hospital for outgoing US combat casualties from Iraq is in Germany.

What are you talking about, "$50 a barrel"? I want the $30 a barrel we had in '98 when I bought a gallon for $.95 in Key West!

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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eywed says on Jan 19, 2008, 23:35:

/

Ay Hombe!!!!!

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lpdiver says on Jan 22, 2008, 15:17:

R.J. do me a favor and go check out this article before you make statements about FARC being capable of compassion and humanity. They deserve to die as they have treated others.

http://www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/colombia0903.pdf

T

"cook some rice!"

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tasco66 says on Jan 24, 2008, 09:44:

"Sr. T the problem with the dialogue is that it has been tried before, with the success that we know…"

"Do you mean the actual success in many cases, as in the partial demobilization of FARC in the mid-eighties, the complete demobilization of other insurgencies in the late-eighties, the end of the civil war in a few countries in Central America, and so on? "

We are talking about the Farc here . This is what I was referring to:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73nQ_wH8HxM

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 2008, 12:34:

What that means is that sometimes is has been successful (mid-eighties), sometimes it hasn't (late-nineties). In both cases, it takes "two to tango": success or failure depends not only on FARC but also on the regime negotiating with them. Whereas Betancur seemed to have the intention to end the conflict, Pastrana clearly didn't.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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tasco66 says on Jan 24, 2008, 12:44:

“it takes "two to tango"

“Whereas Betancur seemed to have the intention to end the conflict"

Like when she told them “no more kidnappings" and well…we know the rest of the story:

http://video.aol.com/video-detail/spot-de-mobilisation-pour-ingrid-bet...

Nice tango story Mr. T...

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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Sr Tertius says on Jan 24, 2008, 12:55:

Belisario Betancur, not Ingrid Betancourt.

Make sure you get things straighten out before getting snippy.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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tasco66 says on Jan 24, 2008, 13:23:

ooops...looks like I read your post a bit too fast...

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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