Sicarios killed bar owner´s wife in Envigado

imdarkangel says on Aug 27, 2007, 21:38:

do you have a link
thats terrible!

junkyak says on Aug 27, 2007, 23:10:

whats a "sicario"?

Rubito says on Aug 27, 2007, 23:27:

Here in Bogotá a couple weeks ago there was an assassination right near where I'm staying. Apparently in that whole week 8 people went down and they were ALL administrators of Corabastos, the big farmer's market in the southwest of town. Some funny money shit at work there definitely :P

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Robert Jorge says on Aug 27, 2007, 23:48:

Sicario = paid assassin. Generally, very cheap in Colombia. And from what I have read, VERY few get caught, and most who do get caught do not rat out their clients.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

john_stark says on Aug 28, 2007, 06:13:

Even by the city of Medellin's own statistics which may be understating the case, there were 300 homicides in the first six months. That's 50 a month or almost two a day. A murder in Medellin is not news.Back in the day it was a lot worse, in the same period there would have been 1000 killings.

arthur brode says on Aug 28, 2007, 08:26:

Last years homicide statistics

Cali 70 homicides per 100,000 people Bogota 18 homicides per 100,000 people and Medellin 40 homicides per 100,000 people


New Orleans 96 homicides per 100,000 people

http://www.calirentals.net/

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 28, 2007, 08:42:

New Orleans was between 63 and 73 per 100,000 people in 2006. Maybe it's higher based on the first six months of 2007, I don't know. And even though it's on my top 10 list of places that need a neutron bomb, it's still apples and oranges to compare most "core" cities (very small populations) in the U.S. with cities in Colombia. If you used US SMSAs (Standard Metropolitan Statistical Areas) the comparison becomes closer, but it doesn't make for juicy and misleading headlines.

http://blog.nola.com/times-picayune/2007/06/2006_murder_rate_tops_in_n...

tomtom33 says on Aug 28, 2007, 08:43:

Gee Art, that means exactly nothing except that there might be more homicides reported in Cali than there are in Bogota.

toneloc24 says on Aug 28, 2007, 09:02:

Even with the high murder rate in New Orleans, which I have no idea what relevance it has to something in Medellin, I believe that, yes, it would make the news if a hit was carried out on a bar owner's wife in an upscale neighborhood.

In Medellin, it doesn't. Should be pretty telling, but whatever.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 28, 2007, 09:18:

Murders aren't really news in any big city in the world, unless the victim or perp is a celebrity, or a child, or the circumstances are extremely lurid.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 28, 2007, 09:20:

The national homicide rate in the U.S. for the last few years has been a little over 5 per 100,000 (GIB's rate is for cities of x size, I suppose in comparison to New Orleans).

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 09:38:

"Murders aren't really news in any big city in the world, unless the victim or perp is a celebrity, or a child, or the circumstances are extremely lurid." Hollywood

MR H, you mean that if I’m standing on Broadway at 4 am with my fishing rods and bucket waiting for my buddy to pick me up and a couple Puerto Ricans grab the bucket and I resist and they decide to stab the crap outta me, maybe 53 times and by the time the ambulance arrives and takes my sorry ass to Presbyterian hospital I’ve already have choked on my own blood or DOA. That thar won’t make it to the New York Post?

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

bill230 says on Aug 28, 2007, 09:56:

Something to keep in mind when comparing homicide rates is that the victim has to die to be a homicide. Would a shooting victim have a better chance of surviving in Boston or Barranquilla, where a recent inspection of ambulances found that 3 out of 56 were operating properly?

But I still think Colombia is more dangerous.

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 28, 2007, 10:47:

Well, Elmo, of course you'd make the Post because that fits all my three criteria: You're a celebrity, you've got the mind of a child and the circumstances are extremely lurid.

I can see the headline now: "Toilet Genius' Life Flushed Away on Broadway"

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 10:49:

LOL !!!!! jajajaj

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 10:51:

the real funny chit is when doctors find chit in my ears. Hey, how the fok did this modeque end up with chit in his ears?????
A professional hazzard.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Robert Jorge says on Aug 28, 2007, 10:53:

Plus, they would try and tie your murder into Colombia. The Post would probably write, "Elmodefoque, an immigrant from Colombia, which is known as the cocaine capital of the world, was stabbed 53 times ......."

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

Rubito says on Aug 28, 2007, 10:53:

Why do people have such a hard fucking time getting it through their heads that Bogota is the SAFEST city in Colombia? Is it because people can't grasp the reality that bigger cities ARENT necessarily more dangerous than smaller ones?

Frankly the assassinations don't bother me very much. Those Corabastos executives were probably all fucking thieves and when a thief dies I look on it as a positive.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Rubito says on Aug 28, 2007, 11:05:

Don't sell drugs

Don't mess with married men and women

Don't steal large amounts of money from someone who could kill you

It's really that simple but so many people fuck it up :P

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Man Tequila says on Aug 28, 2007, 11:09:

There are some cities where murder is relatively uncommon. I think in a place like Toronto they'd all make headlines.

I would expect the doctor to find feculence in Elmo's mouth. PBH is not an audial format. ;)

Big cities in Canada are often proportionally safer than smaller cities and some towns.

Though Colombians are great people, and usually laid back, I am less sure they are impassive. The aggression of certain malparidos could be a minority taking advantage of a natural passivity. It is just as possible Colombians have a tendency towards passive-aggression by times, if Heck hath fury and all.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 28, 2007, 11:55:

Yeah, Rubito, I think you're missing a lot of folks who just made the "mistake" of not paying up when extorted, or being unable to pay up, or owning a property that someone else wanted, etc. There are certainly a lot of dirty mofos out there and to them I say "live by the sword, die by the sword," but there are also a lot of pretty innocent victims.

I have a friend (rich, upper class Colombian) whose best friend was killed when they both had to run away from a kidnapping attempt on my buddy. He was hardly "asking for it."

You'll begin to see this when you live in Colombia a bit longer.

Lily03 says on Aug 28, 2007, 11:55:

Its a shame that eventhough we all agree that it is a beautiful country cases like this happen more often then not. (per statistics presented above)
Just this past weekend, my grandmother was telling me of woman in her late 20's coming from Villavicencio to Acacias in her car with her husband and got shot (6 times) by some sacarios too..nothing happened to her husband (weird)...but scenes like these ones are so frequent, its just sad.

:-(

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 11:59:

"Don't mess with married men and women" oh oh....

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:05:

you guys are scaring me, NOT!!!
Listen i lived in NYC during their most dangerous times in history, NOTHING
I lived in Barranquilla during La Violencia, NOTHING
I gotto curramba to the most dangerous places NOTHING
It helps to be injun and poor, money brings too many hassels
The money i get, i quickly spent on hookers, and i'm broke again

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

LA_MONA says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:06:

Gabo cuidadito no?

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:08:

my advice, don't have money and if you have too much, i'll help you spend it so you wont have to worry about some modefoque kidnapping or putting 5 bullets in your fat head.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:12:

i know you guys are gonna laugh when somebody finally caps my ass in curramba for accidentaly knocking his fokin beer or something stupid like that
LOOK AT MR NOTHING IS GONNA HAPPEN TO ME, tHAT MODEFOQUE IS NOW DEADER THAN A DOOR NAIL

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

RussianFred says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:14:

I am sure that most murders in Colombia are not reported. The figures was proberly 10x the amount reported. Most people know someone that was a victim of a violent crime. Most crimes in America happen in poor areas. It's mostly black on black or spanish on spanish crimes. In Colombia the white man is a target!

Annual Drug Deaths: Tobacco: 395,000, Alcohol: 125,000, 'Legal' Drugs: 38,000, Illegal Drug Overdoses: 5,200, Marijuana: 0. Considering government subsidies of tobacco, just what is our government protecting us from in the drug war?--Ralph Nader

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:16:

COLOMBIA, NOW THAT THAR IS MY KIND OF PLACE JIJJJIJ

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:18:

To honor a fallen soldier or deceased statesman, the flag is flown at half-mast. What do they do for toilet engineers - turn off the water for a day?

elmodefoque says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:20:

NOPE we all flush at the same time

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:21:

vaya que sí Monita debo tener cuidado.... pero vale mucho la pena

=D

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

LA_MONA says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:23:

I think we should make it clear you are not talking about me Gabo o sino ahi si que tu vida correria peligro LOL

Para volar, es preciso tener resistencia. -M.Lin

Cerealkiller says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:24:

hmm, so thats what Gabo is into...married women, that explains a lot :P

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:40:

oh yeah... I am talking about the paisa of my dreams... Mona is my sister (let's say)... she is my confidante ....

CK the key word is DIVORCE!!!! She will not be married soon...

=P

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Cerealkiller says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:41:

will you love me more if i marry my boyfriend?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:44:

mmm no actually no....

just kidding...

If I let you marry this guy... will you let me marry her???

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Cerealkiller says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:50:

No Hombre, que te pasa? I am not getting hitched anytime soon...I am not psychologically prepared. I like living with bf and we have tons and tons of fun but i enjoy filling out forms and putting Miss and Single a little bit too much.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:54:

ok but... will you let me marry her???

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Cerealkiller says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:58:

no, if i dont get married you cant get married either.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Cerealkiller says on Aug 28, 2007, 12:58:

no, if i dont get married you cant get married either.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

gabolicious says on Aug 28, 2007, 13:00:

hablamos en la casa sobre eso, bueno? tengo que ir a la Universidad estoy a punto de terminar con la tesis....

Besos

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 18:51:

hey will you guys get a virtual room already!

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 18:52:

hey will you guys get a virtual room already!

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 18:55:

This talk of murders and stats always makes me think of the astonishing numbers of deaths by traffic accidents in SA.

8 people die EVERY DAY in Buenos Aires alone, 20.5 in Argentina as a whole.

I am sure Colombia's numbers are equal or worse.

That's like an Iraq war going on in every country down here.

It really isn't a joke to say the most dangerous thing you can do here is to (try to) cross the street.

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 19:06:

Found this about traffic deaths in Colombia, looks like Bogotá is doing a far better job fighting the problem than BsAs:

"In Colombia, for instance, a concerted effort to reduce traffic deaths in Bogotá and other cities has proven to be extremely successful. In 1995, Colombia first required that all vehicle owners must be insured and then instituted a 3% levy on all vehicle insurance policies, earmarking that money for a “road accident prevention fund.��?

Colombia had recorded its all-time record high for traffic fatalities—7,874—in 1995 (that's 21.5 a day!!) , according to a report in the March–June 2003 issue of Injury Control and Safety Promotion by a team led by Deysi Yasmin Rodríguez, an engineer with the Research Program on Traffic and Transport at the National University of Colombia. By 2002, the nation’s traffic deaths had dropped to 6,063. (Still 16.5 a day)

In Bogotá, the nation’s capital and biggest city with 7 million inhabitants, a series of mayors have instituted several programs to reduce traffic deaths and injury, such as closing bars at 1 a.m. instead of 3 a.m. and urging people to drink in moderation if they’re driving, reducing the number of cars during rush hour by encouraging workers to find alternative means of transportation (such as carpooling), and reclaiming sidewalks for pedestrians by prohibiting the old practice of allowing drivers to park their cars there.

The outcome has been striking: the number of traffic fatalities in Bogotá declined from 1,387 in 1995 to 697 in 2002 (just under 2 a day, compared to 8 in BsAs, which is roughly twice the size)

According to Rodríguez, the national Ministry of Transport is now finishing plans to broaden the Bogotá approach to the entire nation. “Among the main strategies we have is the generation of a new culture about road safety in the country,��? says Rodríguez, who is a consultant on the project.

Still, even though Colombia has made great progress, Rodríguez sees distinct obstacles ahead. There are “few economic and human resources capable of supporting the programs in a continuous way,��? she says."

gringoloid says on Aug 28, 2007, 19:09:

does anybody know how many people are run over by cars every day in Bogota?

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 19:17:

I dunno GL, but you know how many times I have almost been run over crossing 85 (not at the lights) when there is a long line of cars stopped at the lights at 15?

I keep forgetting that drivers will just drive down the wrong side of the road and then try to cut into the right lane just before the light turns green and they hit oncoming traffic.

manINred says on Aug 28, 2007, 19:25:

That's fucked. It was saturday night that my poor friend got his leg mangled as the guy on the motorbike behind his was shot dead

Man Tequila says on Aug 28, 2007, 19:28:

Pod: hey will you guys get a virtual room already!

Spoken like a true hotellier! You have virtual rooms, don't you?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

podborski says on Aug 28, 2007, 20:12:

might as well have man t, considering the rooms I do have still aren't ready, god damn #$%^& mesa desnivelada regla grande hijueputas...

Rubito says on Aug 28, 2007, 22:34:

One thing that helps a lot is that the curbs are a good 18 inches high EVERYWHERE in Bogotá now, not to mention the bollards everybody used to love to hate and some still do despite the fact that they have saved probably over 1000 lives by now.

Sorry guys, no amount of verbal diarrhea is going to convince me that innocent murder victims are anything but the teeniest majority of murder victims, here or EVERYWHERE.

Everytime I hear the story about a supposed "innocent victim of a robbery" the REAL truth is lurking behind it. It was the same as this Corabastos shit. Everybody was yipping and yapping that it was a string of murder-robberies until the Fiscalia made the blatantly obvious connection and had a press conference. It was the same when a friend of my gf's got killed in Ricaurte a couple years ago in a supposed "car-jacking", of course the truth was he owed some drug dealers some money and didn't pay up!

Mr. Hollywood if i met your friend and he gave me that story, I'd ask his ass point blank what REALLY happened because I just don't fucking believe it.

I know another guy who used to live here and moved up to NYC in the 90s to escape a kidnapping threat. You wanna know what, I would LOVE to see the guy kidnapped, he's a FUCKING ASSHOLE. No wonder they targeted him, he would hardly have been missed outside his own fucking family, I bet people woulda thrown a massive fucking party!!

I'm sticking by my theory. If you avoid those three things the chances of you being murdered are less than being struck by lightning, even in Cali or Barranquilla, much less Bogotá.

And as for that bullshit about "there are many more murders than are reported" well, HELLO EINSTEIN IS THAT YOU??? Of COURSE there are more murders than are reported, EVERYWHERE ON EARTH. The fact that they aren't reported means we REALLY DONT KNOW HOW MANY THERE ARE. We have no idea how many people are taking dirt naps in rural America and Canada or even Europe and Japan for that matter. Colombia's crime statistics are no better or worse than Canada or the US's and in fact all three countries use the same methodology for reporting, so you will never get a better statistical comparison.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

panthdave says on Aug 29, 2007, 03:33:

Screw it moving to Iceland..There was a post here on Icelandic woman are pretty nice..What is the homicide rate in Iceland..

panthdave Miami

elmodefoque says on Aug 29, 2007, 05:22:

Let me tell ya guys something, them thar Andean injuns from Bogotá are some vicious little modefoques. When ever there was a horrific stomach turning crime with bodies chopped up and then eaten in Barranquilla , the police always rounded up all the cachacos.
Maybe cachacos have mellowed out a bit and I don’t want to start yet another costeño cachaco fight but that is the way I remember.
But then again I have vivid memories of La Violencia. In Barranquilla was carnavala and parties as usual but the news from the interior was totally different. The same now, all these kidnapping and sicarios is mostly unheard of in Barranquilla, definitely no kidnapping. Ok, once in a while a modefoque gets capped but that’s usually paraco taking care of business among them. Gee i DON’T recall anyone ever getting kidnapped in Barranquilla.
A costeño is more of a loud mouth street fighting kind of guy but when it comes to actually killing a modefoque, most don’t have the stomach for that chit, you really need that Injun blood for that.
Damn, now I’m gonna make enemies of every fokin injun in Colombia.
Why do you think most Barranquilleros are terrified of guys from La Guajira , cus we have lots and lots of Injun blood.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 06:53:

I was listening to an interview program on Canadian Public Radio last night. The subject was the owner of a penis museum in Iceland. He has whale schlongs, bull schlongs, all kinds of schlongs, except for human schlongs. However, there is a German, a Brit, an Icelander and an American who are going to donate their schlongs eventually. Oddly enough, the American is the only one who wants to donate his NOW, when he's still alive. Oh, Icelandic law states that a legal schlong must be at least five inches long. That's based on some ancient court case about a woman being able to divorce if it's less than that. Ha-ha.

Back on topic, Rubito, you're crazy if you think the Colombian government has an accurate accounting of the disappearances and murders from the ongoing conflict. The stats for the big cities are probably accurate, but I bet they miss some of what goes on in the most violent pockets of those cities and in a lot of non-metropolitan areas.

Why was the census 10% off? Why are the figures for La Violencia somewhere between 100,000 and 300,000 murdered? Why are the deaths for the War of One Thousand Days unknown? Or the Banana Massacre in 1928? There is a long history of not counting these things - I don't know if it's because they don't care, they can't do it, they're trying to cover things up or people don't want to/are afraid to report a missing or killed resident. Probably all of the above.

Rubito says on Aug 29, 2007, 08:30:

I'm not crazy and I DONT think that. What I'm saying is there are a LOT more unreported murders in Canada and the US than many fuckers on this site would have us believe. And ESPECIALLY in rural areas. I'm not trying to whitewash anything here in Colombia. I'm pointing out some people's rank prejudice and fucking hypocrisy.

We don't even have a definitive count on how many people died in 9/11 because many of those office cleaners were totally undocumented!

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

elmodefoque says on Aug 29, 2007, 08:42:

la violencia was more like 400,000 all in the interior, BOGOTA, MEDELLIN, CALI, PERERIA, PASTO etc
. 7 costeños died of alcohol poison during that period. 3 in barranquilla, 1 in cartagena. 1 in santa marta and 2 in monteria
You guys need to study up colombian history before you claim bogota to be safest place in colombia. Most in barranquilla don't even know what the fok FARC is

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Gomezman5 says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:03:

"Does anyone of you guys know how often something like this still happens in Medellin?"

You cannot be serious....are you? I am falling of my chair in laughter. Have you been getting your information about Colombia from the Go Go boys and girls on this web site?

Look, Colombia is STILL a very dangerous place. Why does this surprise you.

Goodness God, what is it with people in this world. "How does this still happen" lol, lol. I can't stop the laughter.

tomtom33 says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:09:

"You guys need to study up colombian history before you claim bogota to be safest place in colombia."

When your only tool is a hammer, all your problems look like nails.

Cartagena is the safest city in Colombia.

Unreported murders in the US? I can only speak for the upper midwest. There are very, very few if any.

toneloc24 says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:18:

Rubito - I gotta pile on.

What other major cities in Colombia have you spent time in besides Bogota?

If you're "Bogota is the SAFEST city in Colombia" assertion is based primarily on statistics, then, to be honest, it's not worth much. Worth even less credence if it's not based on actual experience.

Not a shot at you directly, but, as I've stated several times before, COLOMBIANS in Colombian do NOT report many crimes. Therefore, people can wipe their collective asses with those statistics, ESPECIALLY trying to compare them to the USA where everything is generally reported. The stats are the most credible to be trying to compare against, esp. USA crime stats.

I've spent time in most of the major cities in Colombia. IMO, Cali is the most dangerous major city in Colombia, followed by Medellin/Bogota. Again, this is based on my owne experiences there.

In Medellin, things like the original post occur often, and never reported. It's been a part of the culture there, unfortunately, as paracos control the city. Outside of the Poblado, Envigado, Laureles, Belen loop, many things still occur that aren't reported. It only reaches the ears/eyes of gringos when it literally happens in front of them. False sense of security.

Bogota is a huge draw for all comers, from FARC to small street criminals to smalltime kidnappers. It's the capital. To this day, people are scared of things like catching cabs, being robbed in the street, and generally the wrong place, wrong time syndrome, where you're not even the target. If Bogota were the safest city, then there really wouldn't be the need for all of the security forces all over the city. It might be the most secured city, but by no means the safest.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:31:

I dont know which one is the safest city in colombia, i suppose it doesnt matter to me because i am sure as hell that if i walk around every city downtown with an ipod on chances are I will get mugged. And if i have 50k to find a sicario and get rid of someone, I will find one to do the job in bogota, cali, medellin, cartagena pretty easy.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

gabolicious says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:39:

toneloc... most of our friends here are foreigners... they used to live or are currently living in a first world country where everything is completely different from Latin America. If they are based on stats... then their point of view regarding security is "accurate", since as you said, "COLOMBIANS in Colombian do NOT report many crimes". However, as you said again, this may not be what you have to deal with when walking down the streets...

I always say "yes Colombia is beautiful.. but keeping your eyes wide open will not hurt anybody and can save your life..."

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

El Polo says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:39:

Statistics can sometimes give a false sense of security.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:48:

Especially when you're talking about kidnapping statistics.

Caution No. 1
The problem in Colombia is not nearly as great as it used to be and that got a lot of positive press. Then the government changed the definitions and things looked even better.

Caution No. 2
Estimates of unreported kidnappings. These come from firms that sell kidnapping and ransom insurance and security consulting services. The conventional wisdom is that unreported kidnappings can be quite high, but who really knows...

El Polo says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:53:

"Don't sell drugs

Don't mess with married men and women

Don't steal large amounts of money from someone who could kill you"

How about that innoncent italian couple who was robbed and murdered in cartagena for absolutley nothing?

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 09:58:

El Polo i think it was because of a digital camera...they had it coming.

Very bad joke I know, but it pisses me off that people think a city is safe just because they havent gotten mugged/stabbed etc etc...hell of course nobody is gonna mug you if you arent wearing anything remotely valuable, attacking someone else usually represents some kind of risk. As long as people are starving right next to a wealth they cant have access to, this crap will keep happening. Colombia will never be a safe country for as long as people are marginalized and poverty remains a life and death issue.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Man Tequila says on Aug 29, 2007, 10:10:

Man, I really have to see Rubito play before his lights go out trying to fend off five low-life robbers to avoid handing over a 20k note.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 10:25:

well gib, thats a very debatable issue... speaking purely from the managerial perspective, i think its cost effective to have the city zoned in order to distribute service subsidies more efficiently. That said, given the living conditions of those in estrato 1 and sisben 1 and 2, having all this misery concentrated in massive areas has a huge social impact and thats where you start seeing gangs marking their territory and the huge antagonism between the north and the south. However, if very poor people were scattered around the city then I dont believe it would make much difference, you just have the same misery but mixed up with less misery...I think living conidtions for the poor should be improved and social investment should be a priority...if poverty wasnt the kind of poverty that pushes people to a life of crime then zoning wouldnt be so controversial.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

elmodefoque says on Aug 29, 2007, 10:36:

The homicide in Iceland is extremely low but you do have to worry about a couple things. One, you have to be careful of falling bodies. How so? The suicide rate is very high and many jumpers have landed on top of innocent pedestrians below,
Others die from busting their ass on the ice, causing fatal head injury.
Come to think of it, there is no perfect place.
Tahiti, you gotta be careful for sharks and tsunami

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

tomtom33 says on Aug 29, 2007, 10:48:

The estrato system functions to help people not catagorize them.

I don't know if that scattered stuff works very well. But at least the blighted areas are smaller.

kalder says on Aug 29, 2007, 12:19:

Anyone I know who lives in Colombia and/or has married into the nation tends to agree with GIB when it comes to a discussion of violence over there.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

slguy says on Aug 29, 2007, 12:45:

"The estrato system functions to help people not catagorize them."

Huh?

It's intent is to help, and it does.

But to say it does NOT categorize people is a little.....naive...doncha think? Or did I misunderstand you?

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 12:51:

I think the system makes sense for a country like Colombia with a large informal sector. It's a creative solution for collecting taxes and redistributing a little wealth via subsidies to the poorest people.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 12:53:

How do subsidized utility rates trap people in poverty?

Or is it your theory that it results in the middle and upper income classes developing an attitude that paying above market utility prices is their sole civic obligation and they don't need to cough up more resources to address the myriad other problems?

toneloc24 says on Aug 29, 2007, 13:06:

Colombian's estrato system = a less stringent version of the Indian caste system (definitely socially). Functions to help people??? LOL. So did slavery, I guess. Question should be who does it really help? In here somewhere is classism.

CK/GIB - Agreed. And this is why FARC will remain a threat to Colombia and the rich.

Gabo - Colombians in Colombia do not report every crime. For instance, it's like trying to state official census numbers when 50% of the population isn't accounted for. The numbers aren't truly reliable, as the data on 50% is not factual. You live in Mexico, I believe. How many common people report crimes to the police there? Here in the USA, the majority of crime is accounted, one way or another, which explains why our prisions across the country are full. Some of my older Latino friends refuse to even go to the doctor, much less the police. They don't trust them.

Maybe amongst the upper classes, but then again, they have their own ways of exacting justice. Which gets back to the OP's post.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

gabolicious says on Aug 29, 2007, 13:22:

I agree with you toneloc.. in every word you say dude....

"The new land of opportunities: Colombia!" ----- Mr Miguel_Clavo on PBH

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 13:40:

Toneloc I would like to make a bit of a correction to your statement. FARC is not only a thread to the rich, FARC is a threat to all Colombians...
I would beg to differ with your first statement as well...The estrato system was not designed to lock people in a cycle of poverty. Like every other system attempting to provide welfare, the colombian one has degenerated into something it was not designed for.

I dont agree with relocating poor people and scattering them all over the city because that only conceals the problem, it does not solve it. It won't make poor and rich mix and it would definitely not make the poor better off...what needs to chage is the quality of life of the very poor, enabling them to climb up the social ladder by providing them with education, health and other basic services.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 13:49:

No, toneloc, I'm sorry but estrato system IS NOT social. It runs fairly parallel with social classes but is just a layered method of making public utilities available for everybody, even for those who really cannot afford to have running water and electricity at their homes. It does NOT trap people in poverty; it allows poor people to HAVE utilities. What a monstrous misconception!

Cheers,
Desi

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

pedro says on Aug 29, 2007, 13:58:

I have to agree with Tinto and Desi. Cheap utilities is key for poor people.

Folks will find ways to categorise. Estrato is just a shorthand to do that. Even in Australia with its enormous middle class and supposed egalitarianism, we still have nice euphemisms to refer to groups of people so that everyone knows exactly what the deal is. It's unspoken but it exists.

Look at Brazil. Having poor people on the hillsides interspersed with the rich is really not a model for organising things, either. It just puts the tensions closer together.

And in Brazil there is no estrato system, but employers will still make a judgement about social class, you can bet on it. All it takes is the address on a resume, or look at where the person went to school, or their way of speaking. To say lack of social mobility is closely tied in with the estrato labelling is just ridiculous.

que nota!

tomtom33 says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:16:

Exactly how does the estrato system keep people in poverty? If the estrato system were dissolved today, people would still be categorized by their possessions and how and where they live. The estrato system is not necessary for this categorization.

I have plenty of friends who live in estrato 1.

toneloc24 says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:23:

CK - To clarify, I did state the FARC "will remain a threat to Colombia and the rich." By "to Colombia", I meant the entire country. By "the rich", I separated them out because, by design, this is who FARC intends to target, perceived riches or not. Both FARC and the paracos have committed atrocities against rich and poor Colombians in land grabs. Collateral damage is a MF.

CK/Desi - The estrato system wasn't intended to lock people into poverty, yet it does exactly that. The lower rungs of the estrato system very very rarely move out of poverty. The only people who don't believe this, are those with mobility, opportunities, options, and ACCESS. If you're poor in Colombia, how in the hell can you even consider college if you can barely eat? It's interesting that providing running water and available electricity are supposed to level the playing field. And so the cycle continues.... the rich stay rich, the poor stay hopeless. Yet Colombians are amongst the happiest people in the world. LOL!!! Hilarious.

I'm also not an advocate of spreading the less fortunate all over the cities as well. I am an advocate of opportunities being provided to them. Be it better educational opportunities, better wages, and/or access to better jobs (if qualified), and a reduction of the nepotism and buddy system crap that prevails. I don't consider this welfare. It's teaching a man how to fish, and not just giving him a meal. Not that difficult a concept, nor difficult to implement. But then again, I'm not a selfish person.

Now back to the OP, sicarios gun down a bar owner's wife in an upper class neighborhood in Medellin, yet the only place it's publicized is on PBH??? Sure would make me feel all warm and fuzzy inside and assured that Medellin is safe and secure from the old days.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:26:

Rubito, I'm not really looking to butt heads, but what you said about my friend is flat out creepy and makes you look like a big jerk.

It's hardly "asking for it" to be born into a wealthy family and be targeted for kidnapping which was exactly the case I mentioned. It's not "asking for it to be a business owner who is targeted by extortionists. It's also not "asking it" to be a peasant whose family subsistence farm just happens to lie in the way of the ambitions of a big drug lord or the FARC. Millions of displaced can attest to that.

That doesn't mean that EVERYONE who is target of a crime is pure as the driven snow, and certainly a study of the facts in virtually ANY country will tell you that the easiest way to become a victim is to be involved in crime yourself. But it's totally insulting to a lot of very real victims when you adopt your holier than thou stance.

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:31:

Toneloc, poor people are not locked into poverty because of the estrato system, correlation does not make causation. The problem is not that there is poverty, there is poverty everywhere...the problem is the kind of poverty that prevails and that wont be solved by getting rid of the estrato system.
I am not sure what your conception of the system is, class and estrato are different concepts and the estrato system only subsidizes public services, people are still free to enroll their children in the public school of their choice given that there are enough places, I do not see that happening in the states or England for that matter.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:40:

GIB as they say in Colombia "la lengua es el azote del culo"...and youre totally right on Karma...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Lowell says on Aug 29, 2007, 14:41:

There's plenty of well off people living in estratos 3-4. less attention, less cost, beautiful interiors....

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

Rubito says on Aug 29, 2007, 15:07:

Pedro's point about Brazil hits right on target. Brazil has a classism and an unevenness of wealth distribution that makes even Colombia's pale in comparison, and it acheived all this without benefit of anything like an estrato system.

I for one would be really sorry if they ever did away with the estrato system here. I think it's a great and well thought out idea and it goes a long way toward giving a better quality of life to those who most need it. I couldn't imagine any of my friends in San Cristobal or Lucero agreeing with GIB's facile suggestion that it be done away with, I don't think they'd like the idea of all of a sudden having to pay the same amount for electricity and water as people living in Chicó or Los Cerros. GIB, you're not the only one who goes to the south on here, and I'm calling bullshit on that one. The ones I hear complaining about the estrato system here are all the people paying utilities in estratos 5 and 6 and often living beyond there means just for show. I've NEVER met anybody from estrato 3 on down who shares your views.

As for the RIDICULOUS suggestion that poor neighborhoods be revamped and split up, man, CK you need to read a little history. You should know damn well what a miserable failure the urban renewal programs and housing projects of the 50s and 60s in the US were. Why anybody would suggest something that history has so so soundly rejected in the recent past is really beyond me. And Toneloc, you should know the difference between the police presence in NYC and the police presence here in BOG. Here you can go day after blessed day without seeing one of those guys, where in NYC they are like cockroaches, all over the place! I have NO fear of muggers but I have plenty of fear of the police. Pretty hard to off a cop in self-defense and not go to jail!

And once again I dunno why I have to keep stating this. My position is NOT that Colombian crime stats are anywhere NEAR 100% accurate. My position is that crime statistics are NOT as accurate as most people think in Canada and the US. I think they are useful for RELATIVE comparisons between cities, not necessarily knowing exactly how much crime there is anywhere. And I think it's pretty obvious that Colombia is quite a bit more dangerous even from those statitstics! My solution, watch your ass in Colombia but don't drop your guard in Canada and the US either because it's supposedly "safe". To me people who don't take care of their own personal security, and do things like just getting into cabs with no caution whatseover are friggin idiots no matter where they are on Earth. ANY sense of security on this planet is a FALSE sense of security, PERIOD!

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

manINred says on Aug 29, 2007, 15:21:

I've been a victim of harsh crime, in Canada, I didn't have it coming.

My exgirlfriend's uncle was a wealthy landowner. He was a good person, and was not involved with any illegal activity. He was kidnapped and tortured by the farc, his estate was sold to pay his ransom, and he had to move to spain and now works as a bell-boy in a hotel to get away from his traumatic experience. Other friend of hers was raped, another dude was paralyzed... etc... unfortunately violent crime happens a lot and many people are just plain innocent, and in Colombia it happens more than most places.

billyb says on Aug 29, 2007, 15:22:

"I for one would be really sorry if they ever did away with the estrato system here. I think it's a great and well thought out idea and it goes a long way toward giving a better quality of life to those who most need it"

I totally agree with Rubi here.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 29, 2007, 16:58:

The low wage thing is a conundrum if the people work in a business subject to competition from imports. As you know, there are plenty of countries in the world with even lower wages than Colombia.

Cerealkiller says on Aug 29, 2007, 17:15:

Rubito my history is damn fine. But you cant say social housing doesnt work because it was badly implemented in the US...as you should probably know by now, colombia is not the US. Projects such as vivienda de interes social and familias en accion have proven to be a major success in Bogota, so I really dont know how vast your experience in reading about these project IN colombia is...
The problem is these projects are still very small at the moment but the families who have benefitted from both are now living with a lot more dignity than before, and able to set up their own little bussinesses in their own houses. I have studied these projects before, both on paper and on the field. Again rubito, your personal experience as a tourist or expat to be doesn't count as representative experience...results dont lie rubito and theyre all available on the net. Maybe the one whos not reading enough here isnt precisely me.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

Mike19 says on Aug 29, 2007, 17:42:

Hi All,

I want to travel one day to Medellin to meet a girl I met last June in New York. I've heard how the safety is so much better and only in the mountains or rural areas is the the kiddnappings and FARC exist.

These stories are the opposite on reading within the big cities such as Bogota & Medellin. This girl lives in the el poblado area and says it's very safe! Any advice on the mixed stories I hear regarding the safety?

Thanks

john_stark says on Aug 29, 2007, 19:17:

El Poblado? You'll be in gringo heaven, dude. With hot water to boot. Don't tell anyone about the hot water - they'll never believe that you actually went to Colombia. As for safety, you'll be fine. Colombians aren't allowed in El Poblado except by special permit. Prepagos usually have a permit and gringos let the Ben Franklins do the talking.

Lostgringo says on Aug 29, 2007, 21:09:

Rubito: Here in Bogotá a couple weeks ago there was an assassination right near where I'm staying. Apparently in that whole week 8 people went down and they were ALL administrators of Corabastos, the big farmer's market in the southwest of town.

Rubito: Frankly the assassinations don't bother me very much. Those Corabastos executives were probably all fucking thieves and when a thief dies I look on it as a positive.

COMMENT: That's right Rubito you are qualified to be their judge. And, of course ALL thieves should die! Your rationalization of these murderous acts defines who you are.

Rubito: Why do people have such a hard fucking time getting it through their heads that Bogota is the SAFEST city in Colombia?

COMMENT: take your cranium out of your anus.

Rubito: Sorry guys, no amount of verbal diarrhea is going to convince me that innocent murder victims are anything but the teeniest majority of murder victims, here or EVERYWHERE

COMMENT: How in the Fuck can you talk about others and the use of verbal diarrhea.........lol. You paint the world with a very black and white, bleak and negative brush. I won't bother to elaborate on this because it obvious you opinionated self cannot comprehend the meaning of an innocent victim.

Hollywood: I have a friend (rich, upper class Colombian) whose best friend was killed when they both had to run away from a kidnapping attempt on my buddy. He was hardly "asking for it."

Rubito: Mr. Hollywood if i met your friend and he gave me that story, I'd ask his ass point blank what REALLY happened because I just don't fucking believe it.

COMMENT: Hollywood was talking about a friend. Your comment Rubito was rude and incentive. But hey that's you.

Rubito: What I'm saying is there are a LOT more unreported murders in Canada.

COMMENT: Where do you come up with this great stuff lol. Your comments often have absolutely no real value or validity but they sure are funny.

GIB: Be careful what you wish for! Please show me what country has prospered under Communism. Are Cubans benefiting from it? You once pointed out that Cubans were suffering under Castro. I didn't believe it then but on my trip to Cuba took of my rose colored glasses and say how many of them did suffer. Are Chinese workers getting paid fare wages? By the way, since you are advocating communism for Colombia just where do you live in Bogotá? Hmmm. You don't have to answer lol. Colombia is a very young country in terms of taking on the Amercan Dream and I am sure you will agree with that. We have to be patient with her. It will take time to make major changes. Simple things like pollution have not even been addressed here. I am guessing that more people die here every year because of pollution than organized killings. I know that Colombians enjoy their freedom. I think it would be terrible if communism ruled here in Colombia. Hell the USA still cannot get it together with decent health care for their citizens.

Shooting a woman 10 times in my opinion is ruthless. No amount of rationalization will make it right in my opinion. Yes, it is the way here and I live under their customs and laws. I am a guest here. But it is still a hard pill for me to swallow.

Your Home Away from Home:http://www.welovebogota.com http://www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartment and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy!

Mike19 says on Aug 30, 2007, 06:11:

Thanks John Stark for the advise in El Poblado. I heard it was safe but not gringo heaven..lol. When i'm not too scared or have her cousin come with me one year I will go. I heard the women are smoking hot in medellin.

Mike19 says on Aug 30, 2007, 06:21:

John Stark - I thought it's not good to let the Ben Franklin's talk for you, I heard being too flashy and throwing money around can get you a baseball bat or knife to your throat?

toneloc24 says on Aug 30, 2007, 06:30:

Wow!!! I actually agree with GIB for once. Scary stuff!!!

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

tomtom33 says on Aug 30, 2007, 06:32:

"It is simple economics and I can't believe I am the only one that sees it." Most likely when you are the only one who sees it, you are seeing wrong. The estrato system causes nothing.

It is also simple economics that a healthy economy generates more jobs. I don't see the nexus between economic health and the estrato system.

Rubito says on Aug 30, 2007, 07:13:

Lostgringo you obviously have a bone to pick with me because you are mentally unstable, and have a hard time dealing with people telling the truth as it is.

*I* didn't judge those people, but someone else sure did. Whether they technically deserved death or not, *I'm* not the one that judged them. I just simply don't have any sympathy for them. Is there some sort of new law on PBH where we are supposed to be sympathetic for crooks who die violently? I musta missed that one!

I got a news flash for you, ITS NOT MUCH FUCKING DIFFERENT IN CANADA! You just obviously happened to lead an extremely sheltered pampered life, whereas I've seen shit with my own eyes and experienced shit that leads me to not be able to have the rose-colored image of it that you have. You know if you go back to Canada, I promise the door won't hit your ass on the way out!

Once AGAIN, I never said innocent murder victims don't exist, I said they are extremely extremely rare no matter where you are in the world, and the media likes to paint every murder victim as innocent because it gets them more shock value.

Another real world example, if you guys remember the two Plan Colombia guys from the US military who got kidnapped outside of Melgar a while back.... those fuckers were stealing weapons and selling them to the FARC for cocaine and then STIFFED THE FARC ON A SHIPMENT! I'm not God and dunno what they "deserve" but I sure as fuck don't feel very sorry for them being kidnapped!!

My other point is: people on here consistently trash Bogotá compared to other cities regarding crime and its JUST NOT TRUE. The only other city that has crime rates comparable to American standards is Cartagena. ALL other cities are significantly more dangerous, and some rural areas here are even that much MORE dangerous. These are just facts. All this babbling on about how many crimes in Colombia are not reported is completely irrelevant, because how the fuck are there going to be MORE unreported murders per capita in Bogotá than in Medellín or Barranquilla, when Bogotá is a media center and the other two cities are emphatically NOT! There is absolutely no logical reason to believe that other cities' crime reporting is more accurate than it is here. NONE! BTW Bogotá is hardly the only major city to have a problem with the desplazados. Every single city here has that problem.

I get super pissed because the misinformation on here sometimes STINKS TO HIGH FUCKING HEAVEN and PBH is all over Google, so it's easier for people to come on here and read crap like:

"Bogotá is the most dangerous/2nd most dangerous city in Colombia"
"Most murder victims here are innocent"
"Most Colombians want to leave their country"

I think you Lostgringo and many people on here fall into the category of "watches way too much TV" and you are now just regurgitating the garbage you see on the news. Pure yellow journalism and sensationalism. Well that shit doesn't wash very well with me. I'm not gonna stand by and watch more misinformation be disseminated on here.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Rubito says on Aug 30, 2007, 07:18:

Now as far as the estrato debate, GIB, I love you man, but I dunno where you come up with this shit.

Plenty of business owners in the south are doing better than people in the north right now. The REAL truth about Bogotá couldn't be more different than what you just posted. Often the cost of doing business in the north is ridiculously expensive by proportion, and it cuts brutally into people's profit margins. Do you have any idea how bad commercial rents have gotten in the ZR? Remember that real estate bubble we talked about? It's in the affluent areas, NOT in the south! So you are going against your own logic here. I GUARANTEE you that a restaurant owner in the ZR charging 4x what the same restaurant owner in Restrepo or Cuadra Picha area would charge for his food is hurting worse than his counterparts in the south. Not to mention the south is more densely populated and much fewer people own cars, so you get a LOT more foot traffic past you door.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

manINred says on Aug 30, 2007, 07:42:

"ITS NOT MUCH FUCKING DIFFERENT IN CANADA! "

It is actually Rubito. I don't see how you can argue otherwise.

Rubito says on Aug 30, 2007, 08:42:

GIB, I HAVE done just that, you never saw my Ciudad Bolivar photo gallery? It's not paradise but it's not material for a Sally Struthers commercial either! I've seen and actually even LIVED in MUCH worse in Canada.

Anyways, we are talking about commercial rents and utilities as it pertains to market prices and profit margins, and I fail to see how the neighborhood's aesthetics is relevant!

Maninred, you need to go visit a reservation or two, THEN we can talk on equal ground.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Man Tequila says on Aug 30, 2007, 11:54:

Some of the Indian reservations in Canada are in appalling condition, I agree. Were you living on one, or do you think that St. Henri or Pointe St. Charles are comparable?

I don't like to read exaggerations either, and do my best to promote Colombia in my social circle. But there was a diaspora and many people left a land they loved with cause. Every city has a problem with desplazados for a reason.

One enters the realm of speculation when discussing murders that aren't reported, but some speculations are better than others. I suppose whether you feel compassion for victims of violence is your call. And many murdered folks are not saints. But I'd bet Colombia has more reasonably innocent victims of violence than most other places.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

Lowell says on Aug 30, 2007, 11:58:

It's common knowledge here that theives can/will be shot. Don't know the legality. Colombians are protective of their peoperty/possessions. They work doubly hard to get them. This week some theives took a bike from the poor people temporaliy living in a closed down school at the end of our street. The bike was later recovered and the theif got a beating that nearly killed him. The fools came back to our Barrio the next night and they thought that they were smart by using soft sounds to communicate. Wrong move. All of us were waiting. Once they were at the top of the street a call was made to a neighbor down the hill who was waiting with a gun. Some shots were fired as they scattered into the brush. Don't know if they were hit. However, I bet that they may have chit their pants. Street Justice. No one called the cops.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

john_stark says on Aug 30, 2007, 16:44:

You're right, Lowell. There is no point calling the cops. It was DB and the AUC that cleaned up Medellin - the cops had nothing to do with it.

robi666 says on Aug 30, 2007, 17:00:

And who's cleaning it now, John?

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

manINred says on Aug 30, 2007, 17:08:

Rubito, I have written papers on native reservations and how the natives in Canada are an internal third world within the country. I have also visited reservations and my family has (surprisingly) made aquaintances and friends of families on those reservations.

That doesn't mean to say that there are more innocent victims of crime and violence in Canada than Colombia. That is simply not true.

Lostgringo says on Aug 30, 2007, 17:17:

Rubuto...........I got a news flash for you, ITS NOT MUCH FUCKING DIFFERENT IN CANADA! You just obviously happened to lead an extremely sheltered pampered life, whereas I've seen shit with my own eyes and experienced shit that leads me to not be able to have the rose-colored image of it that you have. You know if you go back to Canada, I promise the door won't hit your ass on the way out!

COMMENT: A Masters degree majoring in Criminology and living on the streets most of my life should give some idea of what goes on with crime in Canada. But hey your the authority here. LOL

Rubito: I get super pissed because the misinformation on here sometimes STINKS TO HIGH FUCKING HEAVEN and PBH is all over Google, so it's easier for people to come on here and read crap like:

"Bogotá is the most dangerous/2nd most dangerous city in Colombia"
"Most murder victims here are innocent"
"Most Colombians want to leave their country"

COMMENT: Yes that's right Rubito and most of the things you spurt out of your mouth about the causes of crime in Colombia and Canada is pure fiction on your part. And, nobody here said most murder victims are innocent. Please show us where that was said. You said the 8 murder victims deserved to die because you believed them to be thieves. I commented that you were being their judge. In terms of what you said......ALL persons who steal should be murdered. A hard stance I would say and one with very little thought put into it. And, what is worse? The murderer in your example is seen a good person. Oh well, it's your logic. I am not casting judgment on how Colombians deal with these issues. I am just a guest here. It is not for to say. But for you to say they deserved to be murdered because they were thieves strikes me as ... well..kind of funny.

In terms of Colombians wanting to leave Colombia. Many do, but many are happy with their lives here. And, many who leave come back. I live in a small community that has allot of Colombians who have returned home from the USA. Some are buying property here. Apartment buildings being built are filled before they are finished. Also, to say that Bogotá is the safest FUCKING city in Colombia is very laughable. I refrain from talking more about all of this because you just don't get it or you don't want to get it. Or, maybe you are just to smart for all of here on PBH.

I don't claim to be an expert here. I have only lived in Bogotá for 8 months and here in Medellin for 10. Just out of curiosity sake how long have you actually lived in Bogotá?

Your Home Away from Home:http://www.welovebogota.com http://www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartment and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy!

john_stark says on Aug 30, 2007, 17:32:

They are still in control of what used to be the problem barrios. The punks were given a choice and if they didn't make the right choice they would be killed. There is a reason that Cordoba has the lowest homicide rate in Colombia - you play ball or you'll find yourself in a ditch with the iguanas.

elmodefoque says on Aug 31, 2007, 06:11:

If I may and with all do respect I like to give my aggresive cachaco brothers in Cali, Medellin and Bogotá a little friendly advised. How about more sex, more booze and more dancing instead of so much violence.
In other words “Think like a COSTEÑO‿ .
That gives me an idea for a t-shirt "THINK COSTEÑO"

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

robi666 says on Aug 31, 2007, 08:19:

Something makes me think that you won't sell many of those t-shirt out of the costa... :-)

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

elmodefoque says on Aug 31, 2007, 08:51:

THINK COSTEÑO!
with an burro wearing a sombrero voltiao and drinking Aguila beer with accordion by his side and the biggest boner ever.

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Rubito says on Aug 31, 2007, 09:29:

Lostgringo, put your money where your sorry ass mouth is... show me ONE itty bitty piece, one SHRED of evidence that any city besides Cartagena is safer than Bogotá at this moment in ANY way shape or form.

People's feeling of security is often related more to the weather being nice outside or their environment being aesthetically pleasing to them than any real CONCRETE physical security that they have. That's also why people feel erroneously secure in areas here such as the ZR and 93, meanwhile they made the list of top 10 spots for robberies in the city. In the meantime people are afraid to go to Restrepo and Cuadra Picha when these places while not 100% safe aren't as high in robberies as the much richer areas.

You like Medellín because you like the way the streets the buildings and the chicas look, and because of the weather. I have NOTHING personally against Medellín like I said in another thread, but the idea of it being safer than Bogotá is complete fucking horseshit. EVERY bit of evidence I have ever come across points to the contrary.

So if I'm wrong go ahead and PROVE IT! Find one measly shred of evidence to support your theory and then we can enter into a serious discussion here. Until then you are simply a lousy troll here.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 31, 2007, 09:35:

Rubito and LostGringo/Franko - I think you guys have a previous unpleasant history. Whatever the case, keep it civil on this website.

Rubito says on Aug 31, 2007, 09:46:

This isn't about that Tinto.

PBH is all over the internet, and often people's first source of info for research on Colombia. I want this issue to be discussed in a non-rhetorical objective fashion on here so people don't come here and get misinformed. If I'm wrong I'll GLADLY admit it, I love being wrong because it means I learned something. When people like Lostgringo and his ilk come on here and start SPAMMING this place with unsubstantiated inaccurate CRAP about life in Colombia it cheapens the whole site, and has the exact opposite effect of what you guys intended for this site.

I'm saying that when we discuss things like the crime rate, we should be a little more objective about it and not offer our often completely misguided emotional states up as hard evidence. There is no real great hard evidence on crime, but that doesn't mean we should throw in the towel and let sentimentality and mass confusion rule what is such a serious issue for people planning to travel and even LIVE here.

For the record, I have spent 6 months here off and on over the past 2.5 years but that matters less than nothing as far as crime risk is concerned. Everybody's situation is unique.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

elmodefoque says on Aug 31, 2007, 09:52:

guys
let's give peace a chance
if you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with

over 5 million colombianos in USA and only 27 barranquilleros, i'm one.Curramba, el mejor vividero del mundo!

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 31, 2007, 13:38:

I think it's probably worth noting that why you talk about the "safety" of a city of 10 million people you're really talking about dozens of vastly different communities. Think about the difference between the suburban north side of Chicago vs the housing projects of the S. Side. Or the statistical risk of walking through South Central LA at night compared to doing the same in Beverly Hills.

So on an individual level, it's kinda silly to view your personal safety by the metropolis you're in rather than the immediate neighborhood and community.

tomtom33 says on Aug 31, 2007, 13:51:

And it's rather silly coming to blows over whether Bogota is more safe than Medellin.

Lostgringo says on Aug 31, 2007, 15:24:

Ok I will try and keep it nice and clean here. 1st I NEVER said Medellin was safer than Bogotá. Show me where I said that! You are the one Rubito that is claiming Bogotá is the SAFEST FUCKING CITY IN COLOMBIA. So what. I care less. Have it your way. Also, if you say that Cartegena is safer than Bogotá (and you just admitted it), then your first claim about Bogotá being the safest is wrong. Again, who cares. My not believing all the stuff that comes out of your mouth and calling you on it is not spam! People reading stuff on PBH should know that you are not the ultimate authority here. I often sit back and just let you ramble on with your FUCK THIS AND FUCK THAT rants but when you start dragging Canada into the equation I get a little upset. No I am not a troll like you would have everyone to believe. But I won't sit back and let you slam Canada all the time either. Tomtom33 yep your right. But the issue here was not just about Bogotá being the safest city in Colombia. I don't believe there is anything left to discuss here between Rubito and myself.

Tinto your right. Rubito and I have had issues before. They were basically identical as the one seen here. I am sorry for taking up time here discussing this. I will back off and be a spectator once again. Back you my little bar where I can enjoy good Colombian music, beer and good people.

Your Home Away from Home:http://www.welovebogota.com http://www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartment and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy!

Rubito says on Sep 1, 2007, 12:30:

Dude, I'll slam Canada when and how and as much as I want. I think it's a piece of shit country, I'm ashamed to have been born there, and I'm NOT afraid to admit it.

You're a typical Canadian who has his head in the sand about the SERIOUS problems that exist there.

car1 RTFF, I not only go to the south of Bogota a LOT, I've worked there playing in bars at night.

I dunno which city is safer between Cartagena and Bogota, I haven't seen Cartagena's numbers for 2006. But between the two of them they are the safest, hands down.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Miguel_Clavo says on Sep 1, 2007, 12:34:

Damn,,,i dont want to die....maybe i should never go to Colombia again! and noone else should for that matter!!!!....=) Stay at home, in the comfort of your living rooms....dont venture outside para nada! oh, and be careful of your shadow, too!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

Rubito says on Sep 1, 2007, 12:43:

http://www.laneros.com/archive/index.php/t-95559.html

For every murder in Bogota, there are probably at least a good 200 or so robberies. Worry more about getting robbed than killed, getting killed is MUCH rarer. Also worry about getting hit by some maniac driver out of the legions of them on the streets out there. THOSE should be your two main concerns.

The above link mentions the areas where you have to be MOST vigilant because they have the highest incidents of robberies. BTW 'atracos' in Spanish for those who don't know includes pickpocketing, which is a BIG problem on the TM. If you go on there, wear a money belt, and if you have a bag, keep it in front of you at all times.

N.B. only ONE of the 10 areas on that list is in the south!!!!! And two of them are in the most expensive parts of the city.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

goin_south says on Sep 1, 2007, 15:09:

with only seven people in the GREAT SHOW last night, it sounds like Colombia will be soon, as well ;)

Better get a 'day job'!

and, thank you.

Rubito says on Sep 1, 2007, 22:09:

Some you win some you lose.

The owner likes my music and still wants to work with me, that's the important thing. And the other 7 shows I played went well.

Keep thinking short term guys, I'm sure it will lead to great success in life!

And there is no saving Canada, well, maybe nuclear genocide would help 8)

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

manINred says on Sep 2, 2007, 09:09:

Rubito... you are baffling sometimes! Saving Canada from what???

john_stark says on Sep 2, 2007, 09:23:

Saving it from its terminal