Should I go to School in colombia?

Diez Y Siete says on Feb 25, 2006, 11:46:

Im battling the same idea My mom is a single mom and my grades are good but not outstanding enough to get a scholarship to a great college, as i want to be a doctor if i took out sudent loans i would be in debt for well... forever, so i am considering javeriana and also los andes, i looked at both the alst time i was there (my boyfriend lives in bogota) and both were soo nice, beautiful and look just as good as colleges here if not better, just be careful as to weather your degree will transfer here in the US. After researching both colleges are accredited for medicine. And they are ALOT cheeper but most of the time you have to stay for 5 years for a degree, or atleast this is what i have seen in my research.

caulfield2 says on Feb 25, 2006, 12:38:

Well, you have the options of KU, KSU and Pittsburg State, and that is about it if you are from Kansas.

I really think you would be better off studying down here, but US corporations (if you are planning to return for work) sometimes look skeptically upon foreign degrees.

I think if you could prove with statistics (average SAT-ACT scores, many Colombian students take these tests, along with Michigan and ITBS and ICFES of course) that the student body is the same or even better here in Colombia, you would go a long way towards winning your case.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 25, 2006, 13:08:

Fransisco and Quinceanera: The student body in Colombia is NOT the same or better than the US.

Proving such a thing to an American employer - even if it were possible - is NOT a viable gameplan for securing employment in any technical field that requires a BS.

Colombian Universities - in GENERAL - are NOT as good as the public universities available to you in your home state.

Now the Universities that you are considering - Los Andes and Javeriana - are Colombia's best, and they might be worth considering for GRADUATE training; but you do not want to earn an undergraduate degree there. You are both far too young to be burning bridges with your own culture and making decisions which will limit your options for the rest of your lives.

I'm sorry, but the short answer to your question would be a firm "no."

I understand that the economics are tempting, but if you hope to build a career in the US, you do not want to earn your degree in Colombia. Punto. Saving money on tuition never helps anybody who fails to acquire the knowledge and qualifications necessary to secure employment.

Wasteland

Diez Y Siete says on Feb 25, 2006, 13:42:

WOW you seem firmly against it, i dont see why it makes that much of a difference, if javeriana is an accepted medical school and i did my residency in colombia why it would make a difference if i came back to the us to work, i want to major in spanish as well, and where better to learn then right in the middle of it, and do you have any idea how much medical school costs here, the one close to my house is 48thousand dollars a year and i would have to go for about 6 years!

silviat says on Feb 25, 2006, 15:18:

Are you kidding me? One thing is saying that it may be hard to get american companies to accept your foreing degree. That may be true.

But saying that Colombian Universities in general are not as goods american public universities is ridiculous.

Everyone (or at least the great majority) who has studied in both systems, including me, thinks that universities in Colombia are much better, and more affordable. Colombian educational system is very good. Colombian highschool graduates are by far better prepared than the average american highschool graduate. And good colombian universities (not the pirata ones) are of a very high quality.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 25, 2006, 16:51:

Quiceanero: I hear you - the price of medical school is daunting.

But the answer to your question, is complicated.... not in the least by the fact that we're not talking about medical school yet, but your UNDERGRADUATE education.

The best way to approach questions like these is not to come here, where you are going to meet many people who's opinions are strongly colored by national pride, and who neither understand both systems well enough to compare, nor have the professional experience to measure the impact of this decision on your career.

The best way to answer your question is to go straight to professionals in the field in which you'd like to study.

Do you want to be a doctor? Go talk to some. Ask them what they think of your idea.

Measure the value of the undergraduate preparation by contacting some enrollment counsellors at reputable medical schools here in the US. Ask them how your application would be received with a pre-med BS from the Javeriana in Colombia. How would that compare to a pre-med from the University of Indiana?

And if you're committing at this young age to a long range plan of 10 or 12 years of training in Colombia right through your residency... then contact a hospital administrator and ask him what a Colombian trained doctor has to do to practice here in the US. See if you can find some Colombian trained doctors working in the US - check Miami and New York - and ask them how their qualifications are received here in the US. Or investigate the party line via the AMA.

I think the answers will frustrate you.

My biggest fear with your plan is that you are shutting doors and burning bridges very early - at age 15 - based on economics. The race is long sweetheart. Dreams, ambitions, relationships, and circumstances change at many points in your life... and while it's easy to give up opportunity and take the low road, it's hard to get it back.

Take it from an old man. The money is really less that it seems like from your vantage point, and the name on your diploma matters far more. One thing we do well here in the US is provide all manner of loans and scholarships for people with the need and or talent. It's better to put your faith in that than to find out - at age 30 - that the qualifications you've spent over a decade earning make you a second class citizen in your own nation.

If you really have your heart set on Colombia because you want to be near your boyfriend, or you want to work on your Spanish... set yourself up with a year of exchange studies. A year at one of Colombia's finest universities won't diminish the value of your diploma, and in fact will make you an interesting and well rounded candidate.

But if you want to be competative here, you need an undergraduate degree from an American University.

There are some schools abroad - Oxford, Cambridge, the Sorbonne - that are known and respected in the US. None of them are in Colombia.

Wasteland

Lionheart says on Feb 25, 2006, 20:33:

the problem is the USA I have friends with medical degrees in Europe, or studying medicine there, and one friend in Chile. Their certificates/degrees will NOT be accepted in the USA. Some of them are successful doctors in Germany, they must repeat their finals in the USA, a 1-2 year process.

In general the Latin American degrees are accepted in Europe, you might need to do a test interview, but it is easier. The US doctors are protecting themselves with a lobby to make doctors willing to work for less to enter, or change the numbers of employment needs. Doctors are needed, not enough here, so the price is high.

And as a doctor, why would you want to work in the USA with its f****d up health system?

I heard that Spain is a good entry port for Colombian doctors.

maraca says on Feb 26, 2006, 07:41:

westlandlive, did you know that the Sorbonne is not really that respected among the french???

I agree that some research with specialist should be done, but if the options are studying at a not really good university in the states or not studying at all as opposed to studying at a very good university in Colombia. What would you pick?

There are plenty of colombian professionals that are doing great as master and doctoral students abroad. And as far as i can see, there are more chances of getting scholarships for graduate degrees than undergraduate degrees.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 26, 2006, 08:33:

Maraca... Oh, I've heard such opinions.

You'll hear Americans - mostly the ones who couldn't get it - carp that Harvard isn't ALL that either. It's mostly a function of envy, or in the case of those graduating from other prestigious universities, rivalry.

And they're right in a sense: perception is one thing. Reality is another, sort of. And a great deal of the quality of education we receive depends on our own efforts.

But in the current discussion, where we are answering two young persons' quieries about a choice of education between Colombia and the US, Colombia is the worse choice in both perception AND reality.

The only advantages I can see are:

1) Great cultural experience.
2) Very cheap.
3) Great opportunity to become fluent in a foreign language.

Those are nice things. The problem is that they are ALL secondary to the primary goal of getting a solid education which qualifies you to pursue a profession which will determine your success or failure in the game of life.

It's really not that complicated. You have to ask, where do wealthy Colombian families prefer to send their children? Why? How much world class research is coming out of Colombian Universities? How many American Universities have Professors without PhD's? And how are Colombian qualifications received by American professional licensing organizations?

I've been down both roads.

1) My undergraduate institution was the finest I can imagine, and decades later, it still opens doors for me. Hard to tell where I'd be without that behind me.

2) The business school I attended, on the other hand, was somewhat mediocre (55th in the nation?). While I learned plenty there, the recruiting and job placement was pathetic. When I graduated I was largely qualified for the same salary I could have demanded without the degree... and the employers were STILL more interested in my undergraduate education and my professional experience.

So yes, I know whereof I speak.

M: "...if the options are studying at a not really good university in the states or not studying at all as opposed to studying at a very good university in Colombia. What would you pick?"

I would pick whichever state university campus would accept me.

Being a public school, it woud be the cheapest way to go domestically. Anybody who wanted to get in WOULD get in, even if she had to buckle down and do some time at a junior college to make up for a weak high school record. And its degree would still be far more valuable IN THE US than ANY degree from Colombia.

So far as this goes:

M: "There are plenty of colombian professionals that are doing great as master and doctoral students abroad. And as far as i can see, there are more chances of getting scholarships for graduate degrees than undergraduate degrees"

Of course there are. Colombia does, sadly, export many of its finest students... PRECISELY for the reasons I've given! And yes... in our system, there is lots of financial aid for deserving graduate students.

Could these two students do this? Study at the Javeriana, and return to the US to do graduate school? Sure. Anything is possible. They could qualify for the Olympics, too.

My advice is designed to give maximum advantage. I'll say it one more time, in one more form: if you earn your undergraduate degreee in Colombia, and you hope to build a life in the US, you are handicapping yourself very early in a brutally competative game.

Wasteland

caulfield2 says on Feb 26, 2006, 09:32:

Well, having had the opportunity to look at this entire thread again, I would have to agree the best option would be to get into a decent four year school (like KU or K-State), take out as many loans as possible and try to scour for every possible scholarship that is out there...then really kick butt in those last two years and spend your time putting together a great MCAT score.

It will be hell, but this approach is probably better than working 12-20 hours per week, which will cause you to sacrifice your grades and studies and make it harder to get into the right med school.

jaramillo says on Feb 26, 2006, 09:34:

Dear Wastelandlive, You have said many right things, but you keep talking about someone getting their undergraduate education in Colombia, and that makes me realize that you may not know that there is no undergraduate (premed B.S.) in Colombia at all! You finish high school, you go to med school. Period. By the way, this is the way it is in most Latin America and Spain. At any rate, franciscoariel can just get here, and if he passes the admission tests (he has to score in the top 5% or so), then he will be in, 18 years old and all. The question is, does he have a chance to practice medicine in the U.S. after going to med school in Colombia? The chances are SMALL, and they depend on his ability. The main obstacle is the foreign boards, which are extremely tough. My brother did just that, and right away he was offered a residency at Albert Einstein in NY, followed by a fellowship at Sloan Kettering. Not bad at all... It is as simple as that, and what school you come from is not particularly relevant. A qualified (foreign board passing) medical graduate will have no problem finding residencies in Ca, TX, Fl, or NY because of the large latin patient population. But remember, can you pass those foreign boards? Can you?? You better trust yourself cause it all hangs on that.

Now, franciscoariel, if you want to go to med school in the U.S., a Colombian degree (say in chemistry or biology) will be useless. Listen to wastelandlive there...

A different issue is whether one should value a U.S. undergrad education over what you get in Colombia. I’d say yes.

GregYohn says on Feb 26, 2006, 09:44:

School in Colombia The original poster spoke about having an Associates Degree.

First, will the Colombian School accept your transcripts? I went to a 4 yr school after my A.S. degree in Illinois. We were insured that my community college credit would transfer to 4 yr schools in the State. Your credits may not be accepted by the Colombian school.

Second, I went to a little school near Philadelphia for graduate school. Boy, did that suck when no one had ever heard of it by people living in the Philadelphia region! Expect no one to trust your degree down there, if you plan to go back to America!

Third, the concepts of loans to get a USA degree makes more sense to me. I had them, but after you graduate you need to know that where you live will probably be where you attempt to get a job or can find one.

Greg

Free Calls to Colombia & most of the rest of the world!
http://www.voipstunt.com/en/index.html

12VOIP.com gives free calls to Colombia.Greg

caulfield2 says on Feb 26, 2006, 09:49:

Yeah, forgot about that. It was one of the surprises of education here. I have a 19 year old that is starting her fourth year of law school already. In the US, she would already have graduated...lol...and the typical US law student is 22-25.

I guess there is something to be said for not being forced to take all those classes like calculus, statistics, biology, sociology-psychology for your first two years in the US, especially if you know that you are going to be, say, an English major.

A cynic would say that the US system was designed to keep students in school for as long as possible, and to generate the maximum amount of revenue possible...much as a corporation would try to profit to the highest extent. In fact, the average time it takes to graduate (now pretty close to five years) from US undergraduate schools has risen each and every year for the past 20 years or so.

I am not sure a 20-21 year old is mature enough yet to walk into a courtroom...and I am not sure why everyone is in such a hurry to graduate here when often there are not opportunities to practice what you learned, with many people being forced into some type of sales-marketing-retail position.

jaramillo says on Feb 26, 2006, 09:59:

Caulfield2, Your next to last paragraph poses a question (why so much education?). The last one aswers it. I am a professor at a U.S. liberal arts college. Every term I see kids who KNOW they want to be an English (or _____________you fill it in) major, only to change their mind before the end of the term, and decide they really love film, (or ______________you fill it in). I also give mediocre grades to mediocre students in biology, and they tell me I have ruined their life (they wanted to be doctors). By the time they graduate they don't even remember. Kids need time, and Colombia doesn't give it to them.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 26, 2006, 10:11:

Jaramillo... J: "You have said many right things, but you keep talking about someone getting their undergraduate education in Colombia, and that makes me realize that you may not know that there is no undergraduate (premed B.S.) in Colombia at all! You finish high school, you go to med school. Period."

Jaramillo, it's not so much that you are incorrect - you're not, technically - but you are making a distinction without a difference:

US: Pre-med + med school = 4 yrs. + 4 yrs. (then residency)

Colombia: "Med school" = 8-9 yrs. (then residency)

The distinction means nothing. I know this because I considered it myself at one point. An American can come to Colombia with a premed degree and enter at the 5th year. A Colombian could - theoretically - complete the equivalent of a 4 year BS and enter an American med school program. The label may be different, the substance isn't.

Now, whether he'd be competative or not... whether his credits would transfer... as you point out, that's a tough question.

And I agree with you completely that it's passing the boards that determines whether a Colombian doctor CAN legally practice in the US.

I dissagree with you that what school he went to "is not particularly relevant" when it comes to securing employment or a residency. I'm not a doctor, but frankly, that doesn't pass the sniff test. It matters to Americans - who fight to get into the best medical schools - why wouldn't it matter to a foreigner?

Your brother obviously sounds like a very capable and intelligent man. What school did he graduate from in Colombia?

Wasteland

jaramillo says on Feb 26, 2006, 13:15:

Wastelandlive, I agree with most of what you said, except the 9 years for med school in Colombia. However, plus or minus, a couple of years, I agree with you.

Now, regarding the “sniff test�. Of course the brightest want to go to the best med schools, because that improves your chances of getting top residencies. A foreign graduate is not going to get the surgery residency at Stanford. In fact, my brother got a residency at UTex med branch in Galveston (a very mediocre program). Then, with American letters of recommendation, transferred to Einstein, starting in his second year. So you are right, schools make a huge difference. I was simply addressing whether franciscoariel could practice medicine in the U.S. That covers a lot; you can be an internist in Boston, or a radiolologist in Bemidji.

My brother went to CES in Medellin, but was too young (18) and unmotivated (as I was telling to caulefiled about). The dean of the med school did him a great favor. He called him into his office and told him: you’re a great guy, and we are kicking you out because you are not giving your best (inconceivable in the U.S.). It shook him. He applied from scratch to Bolivariana in Medellin, and finished there.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 26, 2006, 13:31:

Well, I hear you. It sounds like the Dean DID do him a favor.

Now - how is it we are still dissagreeing on the years required to complete med school in Colombia? Nine was the number I came up with at Javeriana, LESS the residency... what's your understanding?

What's your story? Are you a Colombian teaching Latin American literature? Do you mind sharing at what University you teach, and where you earned your qualifications?

Not trying to be nosy... just genuinely curious.

Wasteland

Lucia Rojas says on Feb 26, 2006, 14:34:

I have a colombian university undergraduate degree and I have been able to work a broad in my field while furthering my education. This includes: Italy, England, France and Perú. I know tons of people who live abroad and have gone far with their colombian degree... of course pursuing postgraduate degrees have helped a lot of them even more. Colombian University education has very high standrds and you will find graduate students abroad who excell among their classmates because the had such good undergrad degree prep. It is not national pride, beleive me national pride is hard to have in this country sometimes... but If you choose a good university in Bogota or Medellin you will be focused toward being highly competitive internationally and you WILL be able to compete easily...plus the two language advantage will have you one step ahead of a mayority of the population in the U.S (who is not bilingual) and open more opportunities In the U S and abroad

litost says on Feb 26, 2006, 17:17:

My understanding on med school, from friends who have finished or ar currently studying is that it is a total of 6 years, including the residency. Now this is from friends who've studied in Manizales and Pereira, but I don't think the standards should differ much from one university to another.

Lionheart says on Feb 26, 2006, 21:38:

degrees and pains I'll try to keep it short ...

In the USA you don't get hired by corporations on your degrees alone. You need to fit into a tight hiring matrix. If you don't fit into it you are tossed out by HR, if they have enough that fit. Only the matrix counts, nothing else. Even if a department requests you, you won't get hired.

Factors of the matrix are secret, as they are illegal. Age, sex, race, and work history (illegal reference checks) are included there. It is a fact, PM me if in doubt.

Go to Colombia, study there, then go to Europe for job experience. Accept offers in Europe and Asia ... then name your price in the USA.

Good luck!

jaramillo says on Feb 26, 2006, 23:58:

Sorry to disagree Luciarojas,

Yes, it is true Colombians go far with their degrees, but not thanks to the quality of Colombian universities. Their success is a testament to their drive and perseverance. I started my degree at Universidad de Antioquia, one of the best in Colombia. Because of the political unrest at the time, I transferred to Javeriana in Bogota, where I graduated. U.de.A. was mediocre, and Javeriana was an outright fraud.

BxUnika says on Feb 27, 2006, 00:30:

Quince Question: how exactly do you plan on going to college in Colombia if you speak no Spanish?

jaramillo says on Feb 27, 2006, 00:48:

True, GringoD but some schools have a tradition of remarkable success. A math student at, say, U. of La, Shreveport, could, out of raw ability and drive, make it far. But the odds of the first wrangler at Cambridge going far are, well, far better.

Sorry not to share my details wastelandlive. You know the internet. I have a PH.D. in science from an Ivy League school and I know regretfully little about Latin American literature.

jaramillo says on Feb 27, 2006, 01:29:

Long residencies. This business of the long U.S. medical residencies is a bit of a scandal. Not long ago residencies in the U.S. were no longer than they are now in Colombia. But of course, the U.S. hospitals love it! People talk as if medical practice started after the residency, but a resident is very much a practicing physician. And an unusually hard working at that. Who can blame the hospitals? Who would not hire a doctor for 45k a year, to work like a mule, with one 36 hr call a week, for five years, with little benefits. What a business!

Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:36:

Roger that Jaramillo... I certainly respect your privacy. And the wisdom of your advice.

GringoD, I'm just curious... what is your professional background? What level of education have you obtained?

Lucias, having lived and worked in Germany and Italy, I find what you write credible... for Europe.

But the folks asking for advice here are AMERICAN. Does your advice apply to them? What's your experience in transferring your Colombian qualifications to the USA and competing against American trained peers?

BxUnica asks an important question Quince - many people underestimate the investment of time and effort required to speak a foreign language well enough to study ANOTHER subject, such as science or math. What would your plan be?

Wasteland

Sr Tertius says on Feb 27, 2006, 21:07:

My 2 cents Regarding the validation of Colombian credentials in the US, I'd take the opinions here for what they're worth, but wouldn't get even close to a decision without consulting people in specific fields.

I can share, though, my experience with undergraduate students as a science instructor both in one top school in Colombia (Los Andes) and in two large public schools in the US. At graduate level, there is no comparison: Without a serious investment in science, there is NO chance any program in Colombia, top U or not, will come close to an average public school in the US, unless you are interested in very specific topics in which Colombians excel (some medical research, ecology and biodiversity) or that are specific to Colombia (Colombian economics, history, etc.)

But if we are talking UNDERGRADUATE level, at least in science, my experience is that the average Colombian (or LatAm in general) student of a good U (Andes and Nacional, specifically) has an enormous advantage over the top US student of an average U. I've heard the same thing about South Asian students, basically that they are craved by research institutions because they barely need to be trained: Most of their graduate training was already obtained as an undergrad. That was certainly my case, and of EVERY Latinamerican grad student I met. All my US colleagues, although extraordinarily intelligent people, spent years catching up, and then hoped for a postdoc to keep catching up. I'm still learning every day, of course, but I knew enough when I started graduate school as to run my own work from day 1 (okay, more like day 30: I was busy learning how to buy a cheap used car and rent a stinky shared basement).

The downside, of course, is access to equipment. If you are doing neuroscience in Bogotá and need an fMRI, sure, you'll get it: in 10 years after clearing all the bureaucracy in FundaSantaFe. You'll never see one of those babies as an undergrad unless you are superbrilliant, know the right people, and willing to work 12 hrs/day 7 days/week. Needless to say, the requirements in the US are much less.

On the upside, though, Colombian students, on the average, are far more enthusiastic about their discipline of choice than US students. I don't mean to put down undegrads in the US, but the crisis in science is very real and very worrisome. There is a huge apathy towards quantitative work that you'd only see in third-tier students of Andes or Nacional.

This is probably why the brain-drain works for (almost) everyone: Institutions get cheap and well trained labor, labor gets access to top-notch resources. But, of course, to get your brain in the drain you need a brain first, and a good one. If the validation of credentials works fine, and you are considering going to science, I'd go to Colombia (or Mexico, or Brazil, or India) for undergrad, and then apply for grad school in the US. IMHO, you get the perfect mix.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Gomezman5 says on Feb 27, 2006, 21:56:

GringoD You can call me paranoid. I'll just say that you as well as most of the people on this site are so out of touch that you would not know the difference between truth and reality if your life depended on it. Your view of the security situation in Colombia is simply absurd. You also lose track of another thing...and I have said this endless times already, and that is that my advise is given to people who don't know the country, and don't have any family there. It never was intended to apply to people of Colombian origin. It just gets annoying that you will not, or unable to distinguish the difference between the two situations. I go to Colombia regularly. If I was actually paranoid, as you contend, I most assuredly would not even go there myself. Am I getting through to you??? Maybe a bit??

The lady asked for an opinion, so GringoD,do myself, and the author of this thread a favor, state your opinion, and leave me out of it. That's the mature thing to do. I should add that you should not be so sure of yourself in that if someone does read the thread you referred them to, it could very well be that the person will agree with my position and not yours. How arrogant can you be?


Nevertheless, in asumuch as you did manage to involuntarily drag me into this thread with your mentioning of my name, aside and apart of my ussual opinon of not reccomending someone to go to school in Cali unles there is family there to look after the person, I foreign degree is just that, a foreign degree. I would never argue that Colombia does not have some fine universities. But they have many, many more bogus universities. Bogota, has more silly universties that don't command one iota of respect in Bogota. If you doubt my word, just pick up El Tiempo and count how many Mickey Mouse Universities exist in Bogota. This point is not even subject to debate. At the same time, if you want to work for an American corperation, a degree from an American University is preferable to one from a Colombian one. Even Los Andes, and Javariana, or Nacional, are not Oxford from an American perspective.

utopiacowboy says on Feb 27, 2006, 22:17:

Where in the OP did they say that they could not speak Spanish?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Wastelandlive says on Feb 28, 2006, 07:16:

Comical Sr. T: "But if we are talking UNDERGRADUATE level, at least in science, my experience is that the average Colombian (or LatAm in general) student of a good U (Andes and Nacional, specifically) has an enormous advantage over the top US student of an average U."

Funny, I attended graduate school alongside some of Los Ande's best graduates. It didn't seem that they had any advantage at all, let alone an "enormous advantage."

They sure could salsa though!

Wasteland

Gomezman5 says on Feb 28, 2006, 07:40:

Wastelandlive I would have to agree with you. Here in the United States, on the international scale, it is disappointing how low of achievers we are in terms of Math and science related professions. Those in Colombia that excel in these areas, would have opportunities in this country only if they became proficient in English. In fact, that is the biggest hurdle that prevents these people from coming here. Today, to obtain licensure in most states, you also have to obtain an acceptable score on the TOEFL and TESL. I would like to also point out that the math/science dificency is primarlily at the primary and high school level. If one is intelligent enough to perform well in these areas, than I cannot see any advantage of attending a University in Colombia over the United STates. Most American companies cannot even begin to equate the quality of an education at even the best schools in Colombia with that of the United States. You would be fooling yourself,,,,,delusional in fact, if you were to think that a degree from one of Colombia's better engineering schools would have more value than an engineering degree from say..Northwestern's Tech Institute or University of Illinois's School of Engineering. Every major corp in the US knows how distinguished these schools are....especailly in Illinois.

However, other than in the sciences, I cannot think of any advantage anyone would have in attending school in Colombia. There is more to an education at the university level than what you learn in the class room or with a book. A education in a foreign country is just that, an education in a foreign country. There is a certain socialization process that goes along with a college leve education. The norms, the values, and way of thinking is different from one country than it is in another. In other words if you are studying accounting, and you want to work for an American corp, in general,although you learn the the same rules and principles, an American education is going to be infinitely better than a Colombian education in Accounting for reasons that go far beyond the simple movement of numbers. In American schools you learn common ways of doing things, and in Colombian schools, you learn the Colombian ways of doing things.

Bottom line: If you want to work in the US, get your education here in the US and not in any other country. Otherwise, you only put yourself at a competitive disadvantage

Wastelandlive says on Feb 28, 2006, 08:17:

I get it, Gman. Frankly, I'd go you one further. I don't see much advantage in studying science in Colombia!

It's hillarious to watch predjudices and stereotypes get regurgitated on this board.

For example... I know that America's secondary schools are a mess: does that make them on average worse than Colombia's collegios? Are Colombian high school graduates "far better prepared" ON AVERAGE than their counterparts in America?

Not according to any rankings I've read. Nor according to my experience as an employer.

The declining interest amongst American university students in the hard sciences is well documented. So it therefore follows that Colombian undergraduates are "far better prepared" in Math and Sciences?

Maybe in a parallel universe. That's right, we're now competing with Germany, Japan, China, Korea, and Colombia!

Brain drain is great - for America - and we could get into a long discussion about its impact. We could even look at frightening statistics measuring how many of our top graduate students in the hard sciences are foreigners, and conclude (wrongly) that their undergraduates are better trained than ours!

But Colombians are hardly over-represented in that group, so while I'm proud of those competative and talented enough to get in, noting their success isn't particularly germaine to weighing the value of undergraduate preparation in Colombia. Those folks, as Jaramillo points out, would have done great anywhere.

Tinto - nicer and more diplomatic than I will ever be in two lifetimes - has published a series of rankings. Naturally, reflecting reality, and providing some foundation for their metrics, they've been largely ignored in this debate.

Whatever.

Until somebody can give me some reasonable evidence that an undergraduate preparation in Mexico, Brazil, or India is actually BETTER THAN - not catching up to - an equivalent program in the US... and is PERCEIVED as being better by the people that matter while you are climbing the ladder... I'd be a little loath to encourage anybody I was trying to HELP to follow such advice.

But hey, that's just me.

Wasteland

Diez Y Siete says on Feb 28, 2006, 17:10:

i have started private spanish i have started privet spanish lessons and i am taking advanced conversational spanish in the spring it will be my 6th year i believe in spanish not counting the spanish i learned in primary school, i can understand pretty well, and write well i just have trouble fitting it all together when i speak, but i still have a year and a half to improve my spanish by taking whatever classes i can, ad i have thought about if i do decide to apply to a school in colombia taking spanish as a second language classes for a semester then starting school in the spring, i have quite a few friends intheir 1st and second years at javeriana and los andes, and all of them have a much better high school education, and there college classes are some that i know my friends in the us are just starting in their 3rd and 4th years of colleges, i think it depends on the indivdual, but if i decide to go abroad for college i would follow up with my graduate school and specilization in the same country

jaramillo says on Mar 1, 2006, 01:13:

C’mon tertius... The one about Colombian students having an “enormous� advantage in the sciences over U.S. students belongs in the “one million exaggerations� section in the Testamento del Paisa! We must have studied in different planets. My classes at the U.deA. were filled with scientific morons. Not a single student left an impression on me. When I transferred to la Javeriana, well, there are no words. The bottom of the class was a definition of the word bottom (as in the bottom of the abyss). I was a smarter than average slacker and I aced everything, when I went to class. Only a few kids at the top had a brain. I had matrícula de honor 3 out of 4 semesters at U. de. A. with a check returning my tuition and a letter from the rector congratulating me for my “sobresaliente desempeño académico�. What a crock! I would never have gotten even a cum laude at the place where I now teach, unless I had worked as hard as these guys do. Yeah, I knew more in my field than many U.S. graduates but that's because that was the only thing I took in College. Duh! These kids take Greek, P. Chem. Genetics, PoliSci, you name it. And don't get me going on the subject of the faculty, whose quality in Colombia is truly appalling. The difference in the level of education is enormous. And by the way, there is a lot of "learning" in Colombia, but very little thinking. If we are going to compare let's do it at the same level. Andes students against Caltech kids. Javeriana kids against Williams kids. I know where I'd place my bet. Those are my two cents.

Gomezman5 says on Mar 1, 2006, 07:36:

jaramillo...well put..and you should know Your credentials say more than the people on this forum who engage in idle speculation.

In the States, where school is mandatory and everyone is tested, you will find that the underclass (which is huge) is going to significantly and superficially lower the overall scores in this country. In Colombia, because national and uniform testing, which is the basis for determining math and science achievment, are not uniformily administered, there is no real accurate indicator to determine how well educated the poupulace is educated as a whole. Sure there are some very bright students, with very high scores, but there are also a lot of uneducated students that never even get included "in the mix." As a result, you get a sample group that is skewed so as to make the scoring as a whole appear higher and thus more intelligent as a group. I am certain, if they were to test everyone in Colombia as they do in the states, the numbers would go down significantly.

Wastelandlive says on Mar 1, 2006, 08:09:

Jejejejejejeje.... Nice Jaramillo.

Like they said, only Nixon could go to China...
_______________

Quince,

Well, it sounds like your Spanish preparation is coming along.

I'm not sure you're absorbing what you're being told here. And having been 15 myself a few centuries ago, I suspect that you've got your heart set on Bogota, and that your primary motivation is neither enhancing your career options nor even saving money.

But I wish you great luck if you do it Quince. You certainly will earn a powerful command of the Spanish language, and have an interesting experience. I envy you that!

Keep thinking about your long term goals. It's a big commitment you're making. And when you swim against the tide, march to your own drum, you often arrive at a place where you yourself are uncertain... and there are few people to advise you, because not many people have done what you are doing.

It takes courage. I admire that.

And who knows? You may end up Colombian, practicing medicine there, where your qualifications will be highly respected.

There'd be nothing wrong with that. But it will be a very different life from what you know, and something your family likely can't tell you about.

There are upsides and downsides to emmigrating to Colombia even when you've got a pension, savings, or some other external form of income; when you do it without those things, it can become a one way street.

That's your biggest risk. I ran it myself once.

Wasteland

Sr Tertius says on Mar 1, 2006, 09:29:

"We must have studied in different planets." Jaramillo: It would be hard to come by some nearly unquestionable statistic on this matter. It may be that we were "in different planets," or simply that my standards are much lower ;). I don't claim to have to ultimate truth on that matter, I simply speak from my (biased, like everyone else's) experience as a student and as a teacher.

"My classes at the U.deA. were filled with scientific morons."

By U de A you mean Andes or Antioquia? In any case, both are top schools in Colombia. I don't question your experience, but let me illustrate mine: My classmates and students at Andes knew high school algebra: I could count on that. In the US, if I want students to drop my class, I just need to mention to them that they need high school algebra to pass the class. A roster of 40-45 typically drops to 20-25. In Andes, it was an introductory class; in the US, these were special topics for advanced students. The only time I had a problem in Colombia because of high demands on students was teaching in the Iberoamericana (which battles with the Politécnico Amparo Grisales). I applied there the same standards as in Andes, and that was my mistake. In Andes it was expected to read 60 pp of technical material per week. Here in the US I am limited to 20 pp of shallow textbook material for an ADVANCED course. In my evaluations, I get comments like "He is a good teacher, I wish I could understand his broken English, and that he didn't pretend that we are graduate students [!!!]"

BTW, I graduated 26/32 in my class in Andes. I was the slacker (a good GRE and a nice smile opens many doors).

"Yeah, I knew more in my field than many U.S. graduates but that's because that was the only thing I took in College. Duh!"

I completely agree with you here, but you overestimate the capacity of some in this forum to acknowledge something so obvious. College education in the US has a broad perspective, and you are expected to end up with a sea of knowledge, 1 cm deep. Graduate school is expected to provide depth. Colombia--and many 3rd World schools--don't have that luxury: College grads have to make a living with what they know. That ends up sacrificing breadth. That's the choice you make when choosing undergrad in the US vs. Colombia (or Mexico, Brazil, etc.) And that's why research institutions like these students (particularly from South Asia): They come knowing their shit very well, although their knowledge of the Greek Classics may be somewhat lacking. When you are running a research lab, the former is gold and the latter is luster. I think breadth is really important, and I think I found it from my own initiative in Andes through extracurricular activities. I can't say the same of some of my non-US colleagues.

"And don't get me going on the subject of the faculty, whose quality in Colombia is truly appalling."

TRUE! But for undergraduate level, it's generally okay. At that level you need teachers, not top research magi, and both qualities generally don't fit in the same body (exceptions exist, of course).

"If we are going to compare let's do it at the same level."

My claims were never that schools in both sides are at the same level, because such comparison yields trivial results. If you get into MIT or Berkeley and you are debating whether to go there or to Andes, you are fucking out of your mind. Now, if it is Kansas U (just an example) or Andes, for undergraduate education in science/math, I'd say "at least consider it seriously."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

Diez Y Siete says on Mar 1, 2006, 13:53:

i understand what your saying about not getting the whole undergrad. program in colombia because you focus on one area, well that appeals to me, i hate history with a passion, i have no intrest in ever taking a world studies class again, i love other history based classes though(i.e. current events, multicultural studies, religion) they are all some of my favorites, but im tired of every year for the past 12 years hearing 1492 colombus sailed the ocean blue, how is that going to help me with medicine, i feel as if the undergraduate program in the us is pointless unless you are undecided in what you want to major in, then i could understand maybe having a few survey courses but its like 4 more years of high school in my opinion, i know what i want to do and i have no intrest in learning things that i have no need for when i could be spending the time learning material to further my education in science. BTW does anyone know if there is a way to take the icfes in the US, im just curious to what i would get

jaramillo says on Mar 1, 2006, 15:22:

Not pointless, dear Quinceanera I act as academic advisor for a couple of dozen undergraduates every term and after hearing them over and over I think the liberal arts system is superior to what we do in Colombia. I hope you are not turned off by the “I’m older and wiser� crap, but young people make decisions for the stupidest reasons (I thought so when I was young too). In fact, modern neuroscience has provided pretty good evidence that the frontal cortex is not fully mature in an 18 year old, the age when Colombian students "decide" (i.e. throw the dice) what they want to do with the rest of their lives. I have known many a kid basing their decision to go to medical school on nothing better than watching ER or wanting a big house and a BMW. Nobody seems to tell them that most pediatricians alternate between otitis media and diarrhea all day. While doing the liberal arts bit they have a chance to mature, and to reject reasons such as “I want to be a doctor cause my dad is a doctor�, as well as a dozen others. 1492 and all that gives many the opportunity of taking their first decent history course, given the awful stuff that is dished out at many highschools. Some people may be born to be doctors, but I believe they are few. BTW, before I had my current cushy job I was an assistant professor at a U.S. medical school. I still have nightmares about some of those med students leaning over me with a mask saying, "don't worry. everything will be OK". I wished they had listened to carmudgeons like me.

And let me tell you one last thing, since you seem like a really bright person. It seems that you have decided what is worth knowing and what is not. I think that is a pretty bad attitude for a doctor. Being a really good doctor is predicated on having a very open mind, and being somewhat unbiased as to what is important. What are you going to do in medical school. Decide what is REALLY worth learning there too?

jaramillo says on Mar 1, 2006, 15:41:

I was at U. de Antioquia, tertius. Anyway, if a student’s only choice is Kansas, i.e. the intellectual desert, then los Andes is a worthwhile alternative. This is obvious since the buck usually goes farther in the third world. But I'd rather tell him to drive across the border and go to McGill. I find it funny that you compare U.S. and Colombian students and you found the former wanting, but if I try to compare at the academic institution level the results are “trivial�. It reminds me of the Feynman joke that mathematicians can only prove trivial theorems, cause as soon as they prove one they say, “its trivial�.

roquero says on Mar 1, 2006, 15:48:

San Andres Trying to find flights from mainland Colombia to San Andres Island during Semana Santa [Easter week], but the flights are either full or ridiculously expensive.
Anyone know of any boats or cruise ships that go from coastal Colombia?
Any info would be greatly appreciated- trying to get there from Medellin.

Sr Tertius says on Mar 2, 2006, 11:06:

Jaramillo "I was in U. de Antioquia." So it is possible that we were in different planets ;). I really don't know much about U. de Antioquia, but all I've heard (before now, of course) is very positive, and a lot (by Col. standards) of published research is coming from there.

"Kansas, i.e. the intellectual desert."

Oh, man, don't be unfair with Kansas. Interestingly, some of the best public schools in the US are in the middle of (what seems to me) intellectual deserts. I was in God forsaken Long Island!! The Sahara of intellectual deserts ;).

"But I'd rather tell him to drive across the border and go to McGill." Yes, there are many options outside the US that are far better than Andes, Nacional, Antioquia, etc. That is obvious. I'd ask what the realistic options are. If McGill, UNAM, Newcastle, etc. etc. are options, any would be much better. Again, if it's Kansas vs. Andes, I'd think twice.

"I find it funny that you compare U.S. and Colombian students and you found the former wanting, but if I try to compare at the academic institution level the results are “trivial�."

I thought I worded my comparison carefully: not "US vs. Col. students," but top US students in average public school vs. average Col. student in top Col. schools. The difference is important. The person asking for advice could consider him/herself in the first category, with possibilities of attending a top Col. school. I think this is a relevant comparison, that I'm only informing with my experience. Now, how would comparing MIT vs. Andes be informative at all for the decision this person is asking advice for? Not much. I'm sure s/he is already aware of such obvious differences.

"It reminds me of the Feynman joke..."

But you are aware that detecting trivial solutions is important, right? It let us toss uninteresting problems aside and work on the more interesting ones. PBH is an excellent negative example. Here, we're still "debating" the roundness of planet Earth (so to speak). Expect this thread topic soon: "Is Creationism popular in Colombia?"

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

jaramillo says on Mar 2, 2006, 12:03:

Tertius you are too straight. You take me too seriously. I kid, I kid. I just heard the "enormous advantage" bit and started foaming. I have no problem with your argument. I am just a bit random.

Look forward to the creationist thread, since I am a creationist ;)

Sr Tertius says on Mar 2, 2006, 12:10:

Hey! "you are too straight" Have you been sneaking into my course evaluations? ;)

My feeble attempts to bring humor to the class usually result in utter confusion in the students. I think it brings more humor to ME (seeing their faces) more than to them.

Regarding creationism: I'm a strong advocate of Malignant Design (MD): http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1114-25.htm

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

jaramillo says on Mar 3, 2006, 05:13:

If we were intelligently designed we’d have 10 penises and one finger. I also know what you mean about the roundness of earth debate. The threads at PBH remind me of groundhog day. I am not sure I can take it much longer...

Wastelandlive says on Mar 4, 2006, 07:28:

And then there's this opinon: http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/17169#comment-127803

Can't say I have personal experience at this level.

Wasteland

aztec says on Mar 5, 2006, 08:42:

Are schools in Colombia as good as they are here? NO!