sexual harassment and options

Gomezman5 says on Aug 11, 2005, 14:26:

Crazy Eagle are you serious? Obviously, you are simply not aware of the way life is in Colombia. I think Roofus' assessment about how things work there is closer to reality than a women documenting incidents and filing any formal complaints


Colombia does not have a federal Equal Employment Opportunity Commission like the US. And, it does not have a Human Right Commission like the State of Illinois does. In fact, Latin America in general is not the US. Heck, all you have to do is cross the US border into Mexico, and you see signs that say Looking for pretty and young waitresses. Show me an ad that would say that in the US. If a restaurant were to do that here, he would be hit with a law suit as fast as it would take the printer to print it out and file it.

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vladimiro says on Aug 11, 2005, 14:35:

Sexual harrassment is just one symptom - employers in Colombia take advantage of the fact that jobs are hard to find. Employers in all countries take advantage of the employees they know would have difficulty finding a simular job elsewhere, the ones they that know need the job badly. However, in Colombia many more people are in this position than in Canada or the US.

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 11, 2005, 14:36:

Gomezman5 says on Aug 11, 2005, 14:43:

Vladimiro is right In part, the problem is due to a high unemployment situation and women who need jobs will do whatever it takes to keep the one they have. This is particulary true in the lower level jobs.

At the same time, I still think the main reason it exists is a simple one. It's called the ever present machista mentality that pretty much exists in a male dominated society. That my friend is Latin America. There are those on here that may argue that is changing. My answer to that is, "Do you have watch a snail move?"

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Peter Miami says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:08:

Vladimiro and G5 Are absolutely correct on their point. I talk to a lot of girls in Colombia that have this problem everyday and at different jobs. Sometimes it has been so bad they have quit, other times they could not afford to quit. Another point is other employees are not going to risk their jobs for someone else, that does not even happen here in the U.S. where unemployment rate is very low.

Peter Miami

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:34:

so do nothing?!? What about complaining to someone higher up in the company? Are you saying there is no point in suing the bastard? Jeez, I cannot believe the fatalism I read in these replies.


"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:38:

Well, there are two ways to lose.. lose and lose miserably.

You can go up the ladder, and MAYBE find someone who shares your values but the bottom line is: don't hold your breath.

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bufalo says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:39:

Big companies even make women get pregnancy tests before they give them jobs. She's pregnant, she's not hired. I knew a girl who was going to work for one of the big banks, could be BancoSantander, but not sure. She took the test, found out she was pregnant, so they told her to walk. Now knowing that she had no job and a baby on the way, well she got upset. So much so that she ended up losing her baby within a week.
The classifieds even specify ages for jobs and specify women. Find me a lawyer or an engineer or whoever, who doesn't have a young piece of ass for a secretary. There is only one reason she is there and even if she does give in, the boss usually dumps her anyway for a newer piece of ass after several months.
A girl should tape the conversations, then threaten to send it to the guy's wife if he doesn't pay some good money.

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:48:

not my girlfriend As I said, another guy created a post (Jobs in Medellin) about HIS girlfriend losing her job.

Well, it looks to me from what you guys say that the girl can try a few things, but not expect much. That country needs a female president.

"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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juanalejo says on Aug 11, 2005, 16:53:

Sickening What a sickening post, I can just imagine you all guys come from the blue passport bubble. Trying to say that every single employer in Colombia is as sick as all your wroten minds is disgusting and insulting. There is no denial that there might be a problem is some places, like everywhere in the world, but there are laws, like Mr Gomez said, many times unemployment does play a large part, but just generalizing in this kind of way is absolutely insulting. By the way this is as bad as saying that your own father´s in law and brother´s in law are a bunch of degenerates.

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 11, 2005, 17:03:

Ironically Juan, I agree with you Juan, I started this post because I was sickened too. I hope you are right that not all male bosses are degenerates that take advantage of poor women. And I also hope that the law does sometimes protect the ones that are victimized. Bravo, man.

"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 11, 2005, 17:32:

Juanalejo The situation is bad. I don't know where Crazy Eagle is from, but let me be perfectly clear, if he is from the US, and, he is contemplating that that this person in Colombia has access to mechanisms and can recover way that is even remotely similar to the way one can here in the US, he is living in a dream world period.

I don't think anyone here has posted anything here that would lead you to believe that they think the conduct is acceptable. So why are you attacking us with the comment about our "wroten minds"? Do you want to paint this guy a picture of false hope? You certainly are not doing him any favors. I don't know what Colombia you are living in, but it is not the same one I know.

Additionally, my dear Colombian brothers are notorious for minding their own business in situations like this. Even in this country (the US) witnesses need to come forward and testify on behalf of the accuser. Otherwise you have a he said versus she said scenario. Given the employment situation, given the stigma that attaches if someone were to testify on behalf of a complainant, given the ramifications for being a whisleblower, how many Colombians do you know are willing to come forward and support this person and risk losing their job...AND then additionally, will have a hard time finding another one.

The system in Colombia is for the most part....ineffective. And, you attacking us because we say that it is not worth the time makes no sense. Denying that the system is non functional, means you are nowhere near the point that system should be. In other words, lets be honest with this guy, and tell him to move on and spend his or his girlfriends efforts in other areas.

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juanalejo says on Aug 11, 2005, 18:06:

roofus Is it a joke, a commentary, and appreciation????

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Peter Miami says on Aug 11, 2005, 18:18:

G5 Is totally correct. Juanalejo learn to read and digest what you read before you answer. The U.S. and Canada are not perfect but this has nothing to do with them. The women are exploited from top to bottom in Colombia and for that case in many Latin countries. I have girlfriends in Colombia that have to wear a super, super short skirt to work at a gas station. One of them didn't not make it shorter when her boss told her and she was fired the next day and there is a line after her to get her position because young women in Colombia need to work , eat, live, and some have to help their parents. Let me know if you do not understand so I can explain it in more detail or do you want to hear it from them. It is very easy for us male to talk about what they can do when we do not fully understand how they feel. I hate that they go through that and I advice them the best I can but is so much that they can do.

Peter Miami

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vicshere says on Aug 11, 2005, 18:43:

but the truth the truth is my friends from a government offices to the san adresitos employee to banks to home workers abuse is widespread.... workers are over worked for little pay and even below minimum wage....women are exploited for sexual favor....children are put to work in shoe factories.....all the while the owner/manger full aware.....why.... they know they can get away with...and no one will give theme grief....is it fair ...of course not..what needs to be done...well the Colombians need to start a new revolution for a fair work place..problem is ...Colombian have for so long been treated this way that generations think this is normal.....when I explain to my friends and even my employees how things work in north America they are completely bewildered.....so Colombians I ask you.......when is there going to be a solidarity to have human/workers rights in this country?

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic
homepage
http://spaces.msn.com/members/jacintoplace

listo

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 11, 2005, 18:57:

Vicshere you are right ...but the problem is how long is it going to take for the people at large, to make a serious effort to set up the appropriate mechanisms, which would include special government bodies, that have the power to penalize parties that engage,or allow conduct of this nature?

It is sad that a woman cannot be acknowledged and compensated based on her performance alone without her having to subject to these additional pressures. While part of the reason may be that it is a male dominated society that trivializes this conduct, I have a strange feeling if it was their wives or girlfriends that were being victimized in that way, they might express more interest in resolving such injustices.

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Peter Miami says on Aug 11, 2005, 19:15:

All these actions that you guys talk about are good points and action should be taken but I feel until unemployment does not get to a manageable rate, a great percentage of this problem can not be corrected. This does not mean that steps should not be taken towards resolving the problem.

Peter Miami

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Michael B says on Aug 11, 2005, 23:05:

Mr Stienbeck wrote a book on a similar subject (no, not sexual harrassment, exploiting desperate laborers).

-foreman: Now we're only paying two cents (a box, to pick peaches).
-worker: Two cents? When we hired on, you said FIVE cents.
-foreman: Well, we did. But them folks outside the gate said they'd do it for two. Reckon their kids is hungrier than yours.

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 12, 2005, 11:05:

high unemployment biggest reason I am sure. Colombia needs free trade deals with big players like USA and Brazil. Less red tape for starting a biz and investing. A healthier economy would even make FARC less attractive for young men.

Maybe a popular politician will come along and start implementing these reforms.

"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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poco says on Aug 12, 2005, 14:31:

Grow up A girl should tape the conversations, then threaten to send it to the guy's wife if he doesn't pay some good money.

Pay good money, Gezzzzz does this remind me of the FARC or what,, This kind of advice can get someone killed.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 12, 2005, 16:32:

not blackmail, protection And I don't mean that as some sort of gangster euphemism!

I meant, if a girl is being harrassed by her boss, and fears she may lose her job, she should secrectly tape the conversations, and if he threatens to get rid of her, she would have something to take to his superiors, or to the court if it goes as far as a lawsuit. As a last resort, she could threaten to mail it to his wife. As far as getting killed, well, she could give a copy to a friend with instructions to mail the tapes to various people if anything happened to her, and show the guy the list. Sounds melodramatic, but people here seem to think these poor women have no recourse against these predatory scumbags.


"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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vicshere says on Aug 12, 2005, 17:00:

come on crazy that's pretty cloak and dagger.....crazy forget this is a losing cause man you not going to win on this one..sounds like the movie when the tape is played in public over the persons grave....a lot a good that does......by the way I have further investigated getting some taken out....according to my sources you could easy hire a druggie to make a hit for 20,000 pesos...but if you want a professional hot you will be looking at the 500,000 range....here's a story for you... last month a guy walks by my restaurant very casually....like he didn't have a care in the world mining his own business...then a few seconds later I noticed another guy walking quite briskly it didn't seam strange the guy had his hands in his pocket but o.k. .... 5 seconds later I a banggg ...I looked out and about 5 meters up from my place ....I saw the guy take off and the slow guy laying on the ground squirting blood like SOB....well the outcome is the slow guy owed money to this other guy and was late with payments...so the guy followed him and puts one shoot into his leg....he didn't want to kill him cause he wanted his money obviously....but you see how easy it is... the police came and no one saw any thing....hey it none of my business....and probably the guy had it coming...play with fire be prepared to get burnt.

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic
homepage
http://spaces.msn.com/members/jacintoplace

listo

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 12, 2005, 17:11:

Now there will be an entire thread of posts claiming that nothing like this ever happens in Colombia and you're making it all up because you're a Colombia-hater. What's so hard about admitting that, yeah, life is cheap there? You can have somebody taken out for a song just as you can hire a maid or a hooker for next to nothing. Does this mean we hate Colombia? Does this mean it's a terrible place?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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vicshere says on Aug 12, 2005, 17:22:

hey I am just trying to tell these folks the realy truth...I am not putting down Colombia....but I would like to tell other people who want or thinking of coming to Colombia not to expect the US of A in Colombia because it doesn't exist....come by all means but don't expect to have the same rights, same security, same highways, its different very different....as another poster said we are not in Kansas.....come here and be prepared for a culture shock....not 110 volts but 580 volts....believe me you will get a jolt


listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic
homepage
http://spaces.msn.com/members/jacintoplace

listo

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CaryGrant says on Aug 12, 2005, 17:44:

Before going to Colombia, I read a book in which the author said that one reason some Colombian women like Cdn/Am/European men because they treat women more as equals, with more respect. And I met a guy from Tucson - a really nice guy - who had been rejected by Latinas in Arizona because he wasn't macho enough.

These comments would qualify as tenuously related to this thread, and otherwhat random.

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vicshere says on Aug 12, 2005, 17:52:

what?? now i am confused????

listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic
homepage
http://spaces.msn.com/members/jacintoplace

listo

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viewpoint says on Aug 13, 2005, 06:08:

Yes this problem exists but in many medimum sized and almost all larger sized companies they each have human relations departments that investiate and deal with these problems. Many are not that agressive but I saw a recent situation where a subsitary of Group Aval took a complaint so seriously that they send a supervising human relations person from Bogota to Medellin the next day after the complaint was filed to investigate it. I was impressed by their actions and desire to address this problem for a lower level employee (saleswoman).

The complaint stemed from one of their customers demanding on several occassions sex from one of their salespeople in order to secure and keep a large account.

Unfortuniately, it only stopped the conduct for a few months and they guy started up again. The account was transferred to another person and the complaintant lost her commissions (and account). A well managed company with a good human relations department (in Colombia) will take action but the greater majority of the cases go unreported or no action is taken.

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 13, 2005, 07:48:

Viewpoint, That info sounds like Colombia is making progress in this area, but in general, at least to me, you are giving false hope to this guy (crazy eagle) as these situations are few and far between. And more importantly, since we are talking about Colombia, and considering the mere act of doing so could get you killed, in my opinion a person would have to be out of their mind to attempt any to pursue an action of this nature. Ok, so maybe they will not get killed, but what if she gets fired? You don't think that her boss/employer can't come up with a reason to fire her? .And then what? Then she is out of a job altogeather. And Colombia's job market is not exactly that of the US.

And to you Crazy Eagle, either you do not understand what is being written here, or you just want to tempt fate for doing an action that most are telling you that is an ill-advised one. Every country is not like the US. Why is that so hard for you to understand? This is a country that has a civil war and where 40% of the geography is not even controlled by the legitimate government. It is like a country within a country. These guerillas, use intimidation and killing to impose their will on people every day.

Any you are thinking that this country is the land of equal opportunity where the ills of sexual harassment are addressed properly....Are you getting the message?

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caslug says on Aug 13, 2005, 07:57:

Crazy..sometimes you have to.. suspend you version of reality when you travel to other countries or culture..Most of poster(vic, viewpoint, and others(me)) have been back and forth or live in COL, while we think some things that COL are wacked, i think most of us just let it go. THAT NOT TO SAY WE DONT DO OUR LITTLE PART! For example, if you have are in position of power and CAN do a little harm, YOU DONT. I ve ALWAYS treated LOCAL(no matter what country i travelled to) WITH the SAME level of respect that i give back home. If i had decent or good service, i tip.

I think we do this instead of trying to change the world. Esp if the world is COL, where lots of things are sooo ingrain in the latin culture..

My advice is be nice, respectful, courteous, and not abuse power JUST because it is possible.. SOME locals abuse their power over their female worker, that US(foreigner) shouldnt do it JUST because we CAN..

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juanalejo says on Aug 13, 2005, 08:26:

What a bunch of jerks "The locals abuse their power for all of us" This is the kind of commentaries that get people around the world to hate Americans (USA). We are good they are bad. What a bunch of jerks all of you. This site has completely become a permanent insult on all Colombians, I hope you realize that it includes all your "friends" and "loved" ones. This type of generalization is completely insulting, especially coming from a bunch of blue passport bubble dwellers, who represent probably the most abussive country in the face of earth. I demand some respect with my country, and by this I am not saying that problems do not exist. Why is it so difficult for Americans (USA) not to generalize, and I mean Americans because you never here this type of ignorant and insulting generalizations of people from any other nationality. No wonder most Colombians that have ever had contact with this site have disappeared, that is because we are completely convinced that the black and white version of the world that Hollywood has taught you to see the world through, simply does not adjust to the reality of Colombia. But do not worry, we are working hard to pull this country through, and no we do not believe corruption is the only problem, because it that was the case the USA would not be as rich.

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caslug says on Aug 13, 2005, 08:36:

i apologize if i came off saying.. ALL LOCALS do this.. i ment SOME LOCALS(just like some AMERICANS are jerks, doesnt make ALL americans jerks)..I actually had a conversation with a COL HOMBRE HR DIR, i tease that it must be so easy to get girls in his position. BUT he replied, that he doesnt BECAUSE it may cause too many potential problems. He works for a large CO.. Beside, he said it sooo easy to get girls in COL, he doesnt have to use work to do it. Which is what i think anyway, i really dont know why some guys in COL would do that.. If you have money(which a boss would have), you can meet some many girls that is NOT working for you. I think guys who do that are either a)powertrip or b) really lazy..

YOU have admit JUAN that latin culture is fairly machoistic, where men have more power than women. So of course SOME men will abuse that power..It is those men that we condemm, if you re not one, then dont take it as we attacking you or ALL COL men. Actually, it people like you who does not do that, that should be condemn your countrymen who do abuse power..

Lots of American, have NO PROBLEM bitching about or leaders or condemm some crappy things SOME americans do..

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tomtom33 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 13, 2005, 08:46:

Gomezman5 says on Aug 13, 2005, 08:59:

Caslug,,,I agree with your above post and I think that Juanalejo, sort of took that one line you wrote and expanded it's meaning a bit broadly. I personally did not understand what you meant by saying that "the locals abuse us." That line could have been interpreted in many ways.

That said however, there was nothing in that line that warranted Juan going of on this broad scale attacks on Americans as a group. Juanalejo should be a bit more cautious in his criticism of Americans. Perhaps he seems to be forgeting that they are the third largest recipients of American foreign aide. His current president and immediate predecessor always seem to find their way to Washington, coming on bended knee, looking for $$ that somehow, and in some way, is making life in Colombia a bit better. So given the bilions, that Colombia is recieving from the US, I think that give Americans the right to make at least some constructive criticism where they think it is warranted Or no?

I will also tell him, that for every person who comes on here and bashes Colombia, there are at least as many, especially those not from the US, that find a way to ridicule the US.

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Crazy Eagle says on Aug 13, 2005, 10:14:

false hopes? I started this post, and thank you all for your replies. Juan, if you read my messages, you will realize that I am only trying to help. I am sure there are many many fine men with integrity in Colombia. Men that would never use their authority to exploit a poor woman. I assume that you are one of them.

Every country has jerks. Hell, I have had gringos in positions of authority come on to me! And I'm a guy! These jerks never get to first base, trust me.

And I stand by what I wrote above. If a woman is the target of unwanted advances from her boss, she should do all she can to document it, and perhaps tape it. Her first course of action should be to contact human resources, the creep's boss, the owner, etc. Maybe she should not expect much. This crap goes on in Canada and the US too, of course. Bad karma for these dudes, man.






"Let there be spaces in your togetherness" Kahil Gibran

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 13, 2005, 10:43:

Crazy Eagle State simply, when it comes to this type of stuff, the difference between Colombia on the one hand and the United States and Canada on the other hand, is like the difference between night and day.

Forget it. Colombia is what it is, and you are not going to change it from Canada. They have got a lot more serious problems to deal with at this time....like a major civil war....maybe? ya think??

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caslug says on Aug 13, 2005, 11:31:

Crazy..your heart is in the right place..but.. there are battle you can win and there are battle you cant. fighting sexual harrassment in COL(or any male dominated society) is like spitting into hurricane. You might as well go to Suadi Arabia and try to get the society to allow women to wear sexy clothing in public.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 13, 2005, 12:44:

To get respect, you have to give respect. There is absolutely no respect displayed by any of the Colombian posters on this board toward the USA which I find especially ironic since so many of them live there. Even as simple a request as to call us by the name which we call ourselves is met with derision. How hard is it to call someone by the name that they themselves use to refer to themselves? No one seems to have a problem doing it in the English-speaking world. One thing I find interesting is that real Colombians (who actually live in Colombia) never seem to display the kind of anti-American attitude that PBH posters indulge in. I also notice that they like to have little rants in Espanol thinking that gringos can't understand them. I can understand bullshit in any language!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Sonny says on Aug 13, 2005, 13:11:

I love the truth in any form but you hit this one on the nail head UC.In my past life I found it interesting that I never saw a boat load of people leaving the USA going to Colombia, Panama, Viet Nam, Russia, Ukraine or any place else for that matter. In all of my trips to Colombia I have yet to experience the anti-American Attitude displayed on PBH.
It is still not to late for those that dislike being here so much to load up and leave.
Also noted is the comment that many like to have little rants In Espanol thinking that gringos do not understand. Some of us stupid gringos speak 5 different languages. Spanish is one of the easlier ones. Respect? Hard to get but oh so easy to loose

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juanalejo says on Aug 13, 2005, 14:25:

Caslug- If you want to criticize something about Colombia, you are more than entitled to do it, but first document yourself about the subject, back it with evidence and do not generalize. There are many wrong things in many countries and solutions are as complex as they can get, but coming around and blaming Colombians as we were some strange culture which is the only one in the world that has problems, and specially comparing constantly with the USA which like any country has its fair share of problems does get on anybodies nerves.

Tinto- First of all, I am not calling all Americans (USA) jerks, just a few of them who post on this site. And yes all my family knows how I feel, but it is not only me most of my Colombian family will get into very hot discussions with my American family and now politics are prohibited in family reunions. And no, all the people in the USA are not bad people, I have never said that, but I do believe that funny enough it is only Americans (not all) who have that big head attitude that tends to insult many of us Colombians. And if Hollywood is loosing ground, well good for your children, maybe the next generation will learn history and world culture from textbooks and not from TV.

Tomtom- I have been around this site for quite some time and have been very patient listening to all the permanent ignorance and crap responses from many, but enough is enough.

Gomez- It is not one line out of context, it is reading most of the threads and just nodding with so much permanent nonsense. If it were not my Country, my people who suffer the consequences of so much misinformation I would not give a damn what these people have to write.
And by the way do not give me that crap about if I give you money you better listen to me, that is part of the corrupt politics that have for years damaged the relations of Colombia and the USA, and also the reason why many parts of Latinamerica have given their back on your country. I am a firm believer that if one day the USA begins giving some respect to Latinamerica, begins to treat us like human beings deserve being treated, the Americas will balance power against a rising east. Many in the USA know that, many with whom I spoke in Washington last May, but all of them agree that this policy does give votes, and therefore all the corrupt politicians in your country are not going to try and sell this kinds of ideas.

Crazyeagle- If you want to do some good, well hire a lawyer. The laws are there and ignoring the problem does not lead anywhere. Nobody said it is easy, just like Gomez said in the USA it is a hard case, do not see why it would be different here. And no in Colombia life may be cheap for some, but for most of us life is not cheap, it is more than worth sticking up for and many people through our justice system pay the consequences of wrong doings.

UC- “to get respect you have to give respect” you said it, I hope you learn it. Do not forget this site is Colombian, your wife is Colombian, your step children are Colombian, yet you are hardly a beacon of respecting anything Colombian.

Sonny- You may not see many leaving the USA for Colombia, but certainly any subject that has to do with Colombia does have you glued to the internet. So if you are so happy with your life in the USA, why don´t you leave this site and enjoy (if you can) a life without Colombia in your mind. So as you were saying that if somebody does not like it they may pack and leave, well you are more than invited to leave if you do not like my answers, because as long as this site is about my country, I will be around. And by the way this is a free and open site, if your Spanish is so good, you are more than welcome to participate whenever you feel convenient.

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Sonny says on Aug 13, 2005, 16:52:

Juanalejo Jesss man who pissed in your post toasties. You throw words out there like sand in the wind. You insult all of us who care about Colombia and are trying to make a change but someone or something stepped on your feathers today. You have a right to talk all you want. When you write in such generalities you should know who it is your talking to and where they are from. Your post did more damage to you then anyone. Relax, take a deep breath and get a good night's sleep. No one is angry with you or Colombia. We respond just as you do. Sometimes good and sometimes not so good. Have a good day

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 13, 2005, 18:52:

Juanalejo I have to tell you, you need to chill. You started this unecessarily so, when you went into this long anti-american diatribe because of one line by Caslug. Sorry buddy, but you were out of line, and I think just about every other poster here has told you that.

And you are also being illogical when say this:

"I am a firm believer that if one day the USA begins giving some respect to Latinamerica, begins to treat us like human beings deserve being treated, the Americas will balance power against a rising east."

So let me understand something. When the US gives 6 billion (thats a lot of zeros) in aide to Colombia, that is not respect? Ok Jaun my pal, let me put it in another way....maybe this will help you understand something. Colombia is the third largest recipient. The two larger countries are Egypt and Israel. Do you see how fast they jump when the US says jump? Not only do they jump, they ask how high. Do you think Israel wants to give up the Gaza strip this week? They're doing it because money talks. Sorry Juan buddy, if ya want to get paid, you have to play.

Juan, you guys are lucky as hell the you are even getting money from us. Because without it, Tirufijo might have been telling you what time to get up and what time to go to bed. As it is, he is still breathing down your throat. Or no. Maybe you should ask the FARC to give you some more respect too. And while you are at it, ask them for a couple of billion dollars as well

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DayTripper says on Aug 14, 2005, 07:20:

Thanks god there are Latina's Haresment of women is not OK.
I am sure in the coming years things will approve on that in South America.
But I hope that all the Latina's there will not change into the Gringa's we have up here.
Thank God I now an not in 20 - 30 years when there will be no Latina's left.

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 14, 2005, 08:00:

DayTripper You have a profound statement that I am sure many on this site would agree with.

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Gomezman5 says on Aug 14, 2005, 11:02:

Well Tinto, consider a few things When I through out the number 6 billion dollars, I recognize that was an amount go be given over years. That was the amount that was contemplated under Clinton. Remember Plan Colombia is already 5 or 6 years old. Colombia has been recieving this money since it was initiated under Clinton, not Bush. But Tinto, Colombia is still the third larges recipient. And while 600 million may not even amount to 1% of of Colombia's GNP, it's not chicken feed. I am certain there are quite a few other countries that would be all to happy to be the recipient of that aide.What bothers me even more is what does the US have to show for all that anti drug/anti terrorist aide? We still have more drugs than ever, and terrorism is alive and well, also as pervasive as ever. Just keep an eye on a thread I will be posting in the next day or so. This will be an interesting one.

Remember Tinto, those are yours and mine tax dollars that are being sent to these corupt SOB's. I was really irritated when I read about a year ago that much of the money given in 2003 could not be "properly accounted for." There was evidence that some of it was spent on what else???----take a guess...HOOKERS!! Suprise, Suprise.

Now, I can tell you as a Jewish person and a strong supporter of Israel, that Israel does indeed march to the melody of the US. Of course ot on every issue. But I can tell you with absoulute certainty, that Israel takes its cues from Washington. Bush, Clinton or whoever is sitting in the White House, is consulted everytime Israel make takes some kind of initiative. As I said above, the widthdrawl from Gaza is the best example. Rember during dessert storm, Sadam was sending scud missles to Tel Aviv. Israel just sat there and did nothing as their buildings were getting toppled and people were getting killed. Now, I know of no better example of country listening to another country, that when it's people are getting blown up, and yet the country takes no action in retaliation. Israel and its airforce all by itself, could have taken down Sadam in no time. Yet Irael did nothing. Tinto, that is just the most extreme and readily identfiable example of how Israel marches to the melody of Washington

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poco says on Aug 14, 2005, 12:48:

Not Fair No word better describes some of these comments on this Colombian subject as “clueless”.

Woman can and do present themselves as single. They seek one of these “clueless” people, to provide them with an apartment, furniture, and cash. They profess love, even marriage while the “clueless” is actually helpling HER support the husband or boyfriend in style.

We are NOT talking feeding the kids. Hell, I’d bet some would “rent a kid” if it meant more bucks.

This does happen and people talk, having a “clueless” one sending his girlfriend $2000 U.S. Dollars per month is better entertainment for the masses than soap operas on TV. Especially if she has bought TWO houses, furniture and her Colombian boy friend LOVES it.

A woman who originally obtained her job KNOWING she was going to be banging the boss can quickly become a victim if she gets replaced with a newer model or becomes involved with a “clueless one”.

Promising a salary of 750,000 pesos per month, banging the boss and getting your first paycheck for 450,000 pesos,, that is not fair.

Lets form an agency to control this. Reminds me of Monica Lewinsky Forget the agency, lets call it a SPECIAL GOVERMENTAL BODY.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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pepster says on Oct 5, 2005, 13:39:

You're Hilarious Bufalo wrote:

"A girl should tape the conversations, then threaten to send it to the guy's wife if he doesn't pay some good money."

You're kidding right? Do you think Colombian men are just machista with their employees? What wife is going to leave their two-timing wealthy husband?

It's the way it is...period.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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ARMacleod says on Oct 5, 2005, 17:24:

It' s the way of things, sadly. I am amazed at the naivety of some of the posters on this subject. Ladies and gentlemen, there is no answer to this problem that can be understood let alone solved in less than 35 years and three months (approximately).

Point 1. Show me the evidence (positive) that there is one major employer in one hundred who thinks that a female, however clever, could do the task better than a male. That is in, what we like to call a normal civilised situation and Colombia is not in a normal civilised situation. OK I can take the flak that will seek to destroy me.

Point 2. If you, the males of the hypothetical situation, were true to yourselves and in the situation, would you hire a female before a male. OK, I hear the cries of derision. Would you, as proven statistically, employ someone who bleeds for about five days every month and does not die, consider this a good aspect for a potential employee? Who may have a brood who needs to be taken to school, to the dentist, doctor, psychologist, etc. As a major benefit to the company?

Point 3. Females, in groups, have the tendency to become hormonal subjective to the phenomenon of sympathetic acquiescence. I.e. Their periods due to the testosterone sympathetic balance start at the same time. The conclusion is that they will all be at their maximum bitchiness at the same time. Customers will feel the brunt. Fellow workers (male) will feel the brunt, they will all have time off at the same time?

Point 4. Irrespectively of what anyone will say, it is a natural and thankfully a positive fact, that the female of the species is physically weaker than the male. (Otherwise I would have been beaten to death before now)

Point 5. And what is more important than some of the rubbish above, Colombia has an unstable situation where this kind of discrimination is the norm and may be gotten away with. Colombia has a long way to go before it can even catch up with the rest of the civilised world. With all the troubles that this poor country has had to put up with from the time of the conquistadores, how could it be expected to catch up? Perhaps that is the problem.

Point 6. This is probably the most potent argument as to why Colombia is different. Under Simon Bolivar the land became independent of the Spanish, who incidentally did not subjugate all of the region. Colombia has had more, as a result of the aforesaid, a more troublesome past, it has not yet been resolved, every time it almost settles to the normal, something happens. GOLD. OIL. DRUGS.

Point 6. And the last. The result of the unstable past has left this poor country with no positive leadership of any kind. The stabilization is held very thinly where no one is willing to upset that volatile balance for fear of the consequence. Internationally, where there is no clear and positive mandate, the result has always been the same. Germany? Rome? Etc, the dictators take over and what happens?

Females are left at home, to look after the kids, the men go to war and get killed.
That's life, you are stuck with it in Colombia.

I will get some stick with this one. Colombia is more politically, physically, morally, corrupt behind most countries in the civilised world

Females in Colombia? Sorry darlings, that's life.

Please, someone tell me that I am wrong.
My stated facts, although interesting at times, are generally irrevelant.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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pepster says on Oct 6, 2005, 08:47:

Bravo Amazing...written like a thesis.

On the money! ARMacleod, I could not have said it better.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 6, 2005, 09:06:

ARM, I'm not sure if I agree with you on the previous post if I understood it right. There's a great number of able women in the government of any given country who were chosen to the post over male candidates in spite of being physically weaker, bleeding once a month, having a brood to look after, yes, even with hormonal changes that may or may not affect their capacity to work. I don't know much about corporate world (thank gods) but in politics and public administration women have truly showed their talent and effectiveness in almost every European nation, USA, even in Colombia.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 6, 2005, 10:04:

Just to be fair.... I think ARMacleod could have given a much better presentation of his argument:

Point 1. Show me the evidence (positive) that there is one major employer in one hundred who thinks that a female, however clever, could do the task better than a male. That is in, what we like to call a normal civilised situation and Colombia is not in a normal civilised situation. OK I can take the flak that will seek to destroy me.

There are many tasks where women (as a group) are better than men (as a group). Detailed assembly, sorting, and similar detail-oriented tasks generally have an almost entirely female workforce because they ARE better than men at these tasks. So those employers (e.g. electronics firms, clothing firms, insurance and banking firms) must think that women make better employees than men in those positions.

Point 2. If you, the males of the hypothetical situation, were true to yourselves and in the situation, would you hire a female before a male. OK, I hear the cries of derision. Would you, as proven statistically, employ someone who bleeds for about five days every month and does not die, consider this a good aspect for a potential employee? Who may have a brood who needs to be taken to school, to the dentist, doctor, psychologist, etc. As a major benefit to the company?

If I, as an employer, were interested in making any money, I would hire the best person for the job. If someone's work performance were hindered by distractions of any kind, they would be counseled, and in the worst case let go for poor performance. Over the centuries, women have managed to survive, if not succeed, in spite of their biological situation.

Point 3. Females, in groups, have the tendency to become hormonal subjective to the phenomenon of sympathetic acquiescence. I.e. Their periods due to the testosterone sympathetic balance start at the same time. The conclusion is that they will all be at their maximum bitchiness at the same time. Customers will feel the brunt. Fellow workers (male) will feel the brunt, they will all have time off at the same time?

Men, in groups, also tend to become quite hormonal, go to a car lot and watch the salesmen compete in front of each other and tell me that's not hormonally driven. Some women are less able to manage their moods (from their whatever motivation) than others just as some men can't manage. That some do, does not mean ALL do.

Point 4. Irrespectively of what anyone will say, it is a natural and thankfully a positive fact, that the female of the species is physically weaker than the male. (Otherwise I would have been beaten to death before now)

Again, some are and some aren't. Since only individuals are hired for individual positions, group statistics are irrelevant. Some women are also stronger than some men so, if strength is a job requirement, hire the stronger of the applicants.

Point 5. And what is more important than some of the rubbish above, Colombia has an unstable situation where this kind of discrimination is the norm and may be gotten away with. Colombia has a long way to go before it can even catch up with the rest of the civilised world. With all the troubles that this poor country has had to put up with from the time of the conquistadores, how could it be expected to catch up? Perhaps that is the problem.

I don't follow this one, other than it says, "they do it because they can."

Point 6. This is probably the most potent argument as to why Colombia is different. Under Simon Bolivar the land became independent of the Spanish, who incidentally did not subjugate all of the region. Colombia has had more, as a result of the aforesaid, a more troublesome past, it has not yet been resolved, every time it almost settles to the normal, something happens. GOLD. OIL. DRUGS.

In Colombia's case, I'll grant you that there might be more immediate issues on the agenda then job discrimination, but, at the same time, the selfish, "good-ol'-boys" club attitude is what keeps things where they are. After all, if the people in power have nothing to gain by changing, they won't.

Point 6. And the last. The result of the unstable past has left this poor country with no positive leadership of any kind. The stabilization is held very thinly where no one is willing to upset that volatile balance for fear of the consequence. Internationally, where there is no clear and positive mandate, the result has always been the same. Germany? Rome? Etc, the dictators take over and what happens?

Females are left at home, to look after the kids, the men go to war and get killed.
That's life, you are stuck with it in Colombia.

That may be the case, but that doesn't validate your points above, nor do the points above, justify (or explain) your conclusion. I'm disappointed.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Oct 6, 2005, 11:15:

I don't think so lousiana, it isn't mentioned that often when women talk to each other about the reasons for leaving the country. While sexual harassment certainly exists in Colombian workplaces it also depends whta kind of job it is. Low-paid employees with limited skills that are easily replaceable are the ones who get most of this kind of crap at their work. This would be shop clerks, factory workers, any service job like beauticians, hairdressers, waitresses, street vendors etc. Since these arte the same girls who actively seek out gringos or other foreigners to help them and their families out of poverty it's only understandable that the group would be overrepresented in the opinion of gringos who visit the country for dating or related.

Most Colombian women, young and old, leave their country to seek out better economical and career opportunities for themselves, their spouses and their children. There are political refugees too and some leave to further their studies abroad. I can't see sexual harassment at workplace as a main factor for the exodus of young Colombianas from their country.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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pepster says on Oct 6, 2005, 11:25:

In all fairness... Crazy4Cali,

In all fairness, ARMacleod was taking almost a devil's advocate position while you re-torted with the idealic and logical answer.

You see, his argument isn't a justification, it's more fact. Of course you want to hire the right person, of course you would want to be logical and fair-minded and not resort to generalities. But that's just not the case. It's even more obvious to my Colombian-American eyes because I was born and bred in America and spent a long time in Colombia (vacations, etcd). I've seen first hand what goes on there. Sometimes I can't believe it! I mean I've seen help want ads that state "over 35 years of age, need not apply"!

I mean that's just the beginning.

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 6, 2005, 12:08:

Yeah I know, sometimes the irony escapes me.

I know the "equal employment" laws are either non-existent or are simply unenforceable if they do exist in Colombia. And I've seen the the ads for a "secretary" that say, "include photo."

The sad fact is, as long as there are no legal checks and serious under/un-employment, women and minorities will have no leverage, as a group, to change anything. As long as there is a steady supply of people willing (or forced) to take the abuse, it will continue.

Make all the high-minded (or low-brow) justifications you want, the bottom line is they do it because they can. When they can't (e.g. the women all leave work, en masse, or retailiate in some other way) then things might change. But until then, the status quo will continue to enforce the status quo.

caslug says on Oct 6, 2005, 13:38:

I wonder if COL companies layoff older female worker? I have two amigas in cali over 35 yrs old and BOTH lost their job within the last couple of years and find it difficult to get a new job. They were office/administrive worker(not specialist). Maybe they got replace by a younger chica.

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Rikito says on Oct 6, 2005, 14:19:

Here's how to solve harassment The only way a Colombiana can solve sexual harassement is:

The next time he comes onto to her she should grab him by his 'nads' and tell him, "let's not hurt each other...ok?"

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 6, 2005, 14:29:

The problem is... ...that won't solve any "problems." Sure, the woman will have the satisfaction of showing the boss who's boss... for about the 10 seconds it takes the boss to catch his breath and say "you're fired!" After which he'll just place an ad in the paper asking for resumes and photos (resumes optional) and have her replaced in less than a week.

If EVERY woman did that, and did it consistently, it would be different, but that's not likely to happen any time soon.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 6, 2005, 15:00:

When my wife was looking for work here, she was surprised that employers did not want to see her photograph. I told her that this was not necessary here.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lucia Rojas says on Oct 7, 2005, 22:01:

I didn`t read the whole thing I didn't read the whole thread... but I have one tiny comment: Instead of having to change laws and things why don't men start respecting their women co-workers? Wouldn`t that be easier.. Yes i know you are all respectable and you probably respect your female co workers... but why did none of you consider that solution?

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cdunn77 says on Oct 7, 2005, 22:04:

I agree with you Lucia! Why not take a little step towards progression as opposed to changing the whole system! It could work wonders!

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Crazy4Cali says on Oct 8, 2005, 08:51:

Sad but true Men (and women) only change when they are forced to change. It's the nature of the animal. The men and the women in this case have been trained (or conditioned) to act as they do: The men to treat women like they do, socially as well as professionally, and the women have been trained (or conditioned) to accept that as the norm.

For something to change, someone must first break their training. Most likely it will be the women who need to change first, for example, women must take unemployment over harassment. The men have no incentive to change and won't until their behavior no longer yields the desired results. As long as the women don't change, the men won't change.

It ain't easy, but if that's what you want, someone is going to have to work for it. Women can claim it's not fair and they would be correct. It's not. But rarely does fair have anything to do with what is.

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Crazy Eagle says on Oct 8, 2005, 11:10:

a heads-up If you read in the paper about a mysterious masked man running evil male employers thru with a sword, well, you heard it here first.

"Some are born to sweet delight, others are born to endless night." William Blake

"The natural rhythm of life is routine punctuated by orgy" Aldous Huxley

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ARMacleod says on Oct 8, 2005, 11:21:

Crazy4Cali Exactly! that is what I was trying to say in a roundabout way. At the moment there is simply not the will to change very much.

Until the underdog does something to make that change, it will not change. The winners will continue to win and the losers will help them along in their aims.

My previous was not an attempt to justify or agree with anything. It was simply a basic statement of what is universally known.

My feeling. If I may quote from 'Animal Farm' 'Everyone is equal, but, some are more equal than others'

It is a sad but true statement again of fact.

Pax vobiscum.

My stated facts, although interesting at times, are generally irrevelant.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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