Sense of humor

kernow62 says on Mar 11, 2005, 12:57:

How do you relate to them?

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:07:

ok, maybe it was a dum question and I did want to hear other people answer first, since I'm cool with it, also I'm so used to it that it doesn't ruffle my feathers any way. If it gets too coarse I just ignore it. I find the puns extremely clever and amusing, but get occasionally a bit annoyed with jokes that are racist or sexually too explicit.
The question arises from the posts I've beenreading on another board with 99,9% Colombian participation, many of them have lived in the States or Europe most of their lives and can get really annoyed with the lack of political correctness in Colombian humor. I just see it as typicallly Colombian, refreshing and harmless in intention.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:08:

juanalejo says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:10:

Seriousness It is because people do not have a real problem with those things. I have been around jewish friends telling jewish jokes, or black friends telling black jokes, no offense intended it is just a joke. We tell lots of Colombian jokes and nobody gets uptight about it. But other countries even saying the word "Black" is politically incorrect. That is hard for me to comprehend, but I guess it has a history behind it to make it politically incorrect. When I lived in the States whenever referring to a black person we would say "una persona oscura" because we did not want to offend someone when in spanish by saying "negro". While here my father always called my mother "negra" even though she has no black blood but instead a very indigenous look. But then again we as Colombians when meeting foreigners we are traditionally asked about doing drugs or dealing with drugs just because we are Colombians, and that in my opinion is very politically incorrect.

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:15:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:43:

yes, that's pretty much what I had in mind too. I guess most people here don't either speak enough Spanish to get the jokes or people they associate with when in Colombia are careful not to offend their sensibilities. I had the advantage of coming to Colombia when I was very young and not worried about being politically correct. I am sure if I had come to Colombia first time this time and age these things would have bothered me.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:54:

Many people in Colombia call me negrita I am not black but I think is a friendly or "warm" expresion nothing bad behind it it doesn't bother me at all, but the most strange thing is people call me mona, like hello mona or bye mona,and my hair is jet black unless I have a monkey face :-o

plop

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toneloc24 says on Mar 11, 2005, 13:56:

Please think twice As a black American, born to parents from the Caribbean, we've had to become pretty tolerant of a lot of crap in the USA in order to move forward in this world. Jokes??? Yeah, right.

When I went to college in Connecticut, I was the only Black dude in my entire major (accounting), and the only one to graduate, LOL!!! So, I was always charged, whether hung-over from last nite's partying or not, with being the "Black" voice on issues. Welfare, homelessness, murder, hatred of white people, LOL!!! Funny shit in retrospect.

Some ignorant Americans don't even have a clue as to what is offensive or not, in politically-correct times or not. They don't give a damn, regardless of what you believe. To them, a joke is a joke (read to the end).

In Colombia, from managers, I've heard of the screening processes of some secretaries and other employes, and what might be done to gain and maintain employment for women. In Colombia, racist jokes are returned with a shrug from me. Why? Because I'm usually always leaving to return home at some point. It's not my reality and I'm not gonna change it. It's their culture.

The jokes would be funny, if everyone were on the same playing field in Colombia, but that's not the case, nor will it be anytime soon. Darker Colombians, in general, are treated like black Americans in the 1940s and 1950s. Under today's mindset, Colombian society, be it haves or have-nots, aren't keen to having Black Colombians move ahead. Somebody has to be the punching bag.

As an example, in any college/university in Colombia, can you count past your two hands how many Black Colombians you see ATTENDING that school? Why? Definitely not because of lack of interest in bettering themselves. Drastically fewer opportunities than other Colombians. And forget about seeing a Black Colombian male.

Another example: go to the malls in El Norte or La Zona Rosa, and count how many minutes/hours it takes to see more than 2-3 black Colombians who are there to shop.

I say this to say, someone saying "trabaje como un negro" just in passing, may be intended harmlessly. But it's not very ironic nor rare. It's not unique to Colombia. It's a truth unspoken throughout Latin America.

To those Colombians who tell, or are comfortable with racist, sexist types of jokes, place yourself in the same mindset of when people around the world think of all Colombians, INCLUDING YOU, as drug-dealing, drug-using, heartless kidnappers. A joke is a joke, no? Do you joke amongst yourselves as such? I doubt it, but that's the worldwide perception of Colombians.

Do I, in any way, think in those terms about Colombians? Hell no.
Must I defend Colombia from the questions of ignorant Americans upon my return every time? Hell yeah.

All that being said, I love a good joke.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:20:

self-distance is something most Colombians are familiar to. I remember standing next to a Christmas tree in a South Florida town with a Colombian female friend, admiring all the decorations and hundreds of colored light bulbs...and she says,,"think if this tree would be in standing in Cali it would be stripped in no time at all of all the ornaments!"
I think Colombians are schooled by the harsh realities of life to make jokes about everything, even the most painful aspects of their lives. To take things on the stride is a self-defense mechanism that helps them to make through the day and the night after.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:24:

Different things One thing I like in Colombia is a lack of sexual uptightness. By that I mean you can tell a woman that she's looking really hot and she won't take it wrong. Likewise, there's a nice level of friendly flirtation that just doesn't fly in the USA.

However, sometimes I'm just BLOWN away by the overt racist comments. Not just jokes. Like the one time I rented a weekend house from a rich woman and she said, with a straight face, "There's a little negro who lives and works there so you'll have your own slave for the weekend."

I'm sorry, that's just plain wrong, any way you slice it.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:28:

Desi....it sounds to me that you are in a state of conflict.....Nothing negative is meant by what I am saying of course. It's just that even though that you are very familiar with Colombian society and it mannerisms, you are really more Western (European and American) in your way of thinking. While you are familiar with the sense of humor of both societies, I think in general you are more comfortable with Western or a more "progressive" way of thinking.

Latinos.....somos Latinos y pensamos como asi'....Sexual inuendo and related is incorperated into our sense of humor--- its just our way of life.

As to the person who addressed the issue of the use of the word "negrita". Any Latino who really understands its ussage, knows that the word is never used in a negative context. In fact, quite to the contrary, it is often used in salsa music in some manner that shows admiration for the Negra. Joe Arroyo, like most of his music uses it with some political overtones (Rebellion). I don't know any Latina women who has ever felt insulted when been reffered to as Negra.

In any event Desi, I have to say there are some fundimental differences in the two cultures that invariably will make the Latino a truely unique culture and the culture that I love to be a part of. When I am in Colombia.......Thank god .............I never have to worry about being politicaly correct like I do in Chicago.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:36:

I agree Gomezman my husband was shock at the beginning but I told him there was nothing negative or racist behind the word.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:40:

you're absolutely right and it's very perceptive of you to have seen that, gomezman. I miss the "free ways of the old" of not being concerned what's politically correct and what's not. I have lived in Sweden so long now to not be totally comfortable with racist or sexually explicit jokes. I am getting ready for a prolonged stay in Colombia and tryig to figure out if I can still love it as much as I used to.
Yet all life is a process and I've made the long way back to thinking and feeling like a true European...can I make it back the other way too?

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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toneloc24 says on Mar 11, 2005, 14:53:

I agree with both Gomezman & Kat regarding the use of the word "negro/negrita", when used in the right fashion. As per Mr Hollywood's quote, there's nothing positive in the usage that way. I have a feeling you both understand what I mean by that.

I'd previously been exposed to this way of conversing in the DR, same premise, nothing maliciously intended. At first, it threw me off. I've been warmly greeted as such by new friends and family members of my ex-novia. Completely without bad intentions at all. Of course, I took no offense.

I did find it a bit strange at first when, while looking for an apartment in Cartagena on a unplanned trip, my novia at the time called out to a fat dude renting apartments as "Gordo." All throughout the conversation, she kept at it. He responded as if nothing happened. I fell out laughing after they were done, but had to ask her about that. She just said that's how folks commonly speak to each other. Like calling each other "nene" or "nena."

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Miguel says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:01:

Yeah tone gordo, in the proper context, and especially among family and friends, is sort of a term of endearment.

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juanalejo says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:03:

toneloc I totally disagree with toneloc´s apreciation of why the lack of black people in Colombia. Of course I am not saying there is no racism, but the problem is not that blacks are not given a chance because they are blacks, the problem resides in that the cities forgot the countryside years ago, and these people which also include whites, morenos, indios and negros in remote areas of the country have not had a chance to study and better themselves. I remember Bogotá 20 years ago was a non black city, why? Because they were not here, contrary to Cali or Barranquilla, and now you see a few of them. So it is more a classist problem than a racist problem. And the elite are the elite, here and in New York, and they all behave the same, I have personally felt it,in the US and the UK, just because I was Colombian I was not good enough for their daughters. But the elite that goes to the Country or Lagartos or Gun or Jockey club are the same small minority that exists in every city, but in my case I live a good, succesfull life and never have I felt aside by that elite.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:04:

Toneloc that remind me of my nephwe's best friend he is black and all his friend call him el negro. it doesn't bother him at all is like a friendly way. when i went too Colombia my son was shock he told me they called him negro.when I explained that this is nothing to do with his friends being nasty or racist just a friendly way he understood, mind he still felt uncomfortable and called him by his name but this is the way here in England is making him think "looking more into the word". where in Colombia our aptitud is more relax, when I called somebody negro is the same feeling of calling somebody gordo, gorda, mona.negrita,flaca,etc........

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:08:

flaco, gordito, negrito are all terms of endearment and nobody should be offended by these expressions. Yet the reality is too much like toneloc descibes it...this friendly, sweet guy from Tumaco that comes by once a week to pick up the old newspapers....is it ok to call him "negrito"? Does he just smile at me and call me doña Desi but deep inside him resent me for being a white European? I don't think so.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kernow62 says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:23:

My wife calls me Busimela Nubeluz, Busi for short what's up with that? My wife is loca to the max. I won't dare mention what she calls mini me or his pals the twins!

The only problem is some people upon hearing her use this rather bizzare term of endearment think that my name is actually Busi. I guess it is better than being called Mad Dog which is what my mates call me, some of them don't even know my real name.

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juanalejo says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:36:

Name calling See the problem is that for us a gordo is a gordo and nobody thinks more about it, a blonde is a blonde, a black is a black, why take offense in what you are. That is what I do not understand. Why call a black in the US Afroamerican? Is he embarrassed of being a black? Would I be offended if I was called Latino or Colombian or black haired or moreno? We had two school mates who were red haired, their nicknames were Boliqueso and Fosforito, they never took offense, they were both good at football and you could hear those nicknames cheering them up through the field all the time.

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Miguel says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:40:

¡Fosforito! ¡¡¡Great name!!!

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:47:

Juanalejo LMAO, LOL, HAHAH, Is a long time i haven't heard the word boliqueso. I used to like them you know.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 15:48:

yes, juanalejo the Colombians and other latinos here in Sweden are called "svartskallar" that is "blackheads". I was training a group of Colombian telecommunication professionals who were going to Sweden for a study period..they were aware of the nickname and laughed at it saying that they would have to change it to "cabezas bajas" since they were all very short. That is the same kind of attitude you were describing.

Colombians are very fond of nicknames. I can think of several people that I know only by the nickname; I might have heard their real names one time but all I can think of is their nicknames. I was called La Monita. It's fitting enough, no problem with me.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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dwmte says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:07:

boliqueso... that's pretty cool, too.

hell, i'm an old gray haired, false toothed gringo and if you call me that, i'll have to agree.

and you?

dw

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:26:

No no no dwmte you would be called the wicked witch

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:40:

to clarify It wasn't the use of the word "negrito" that bothered me. It's the act of in one sentence pointing out to me that the house empleado is black and saying "You'll have your own slave for the weekend."

I'm sorry but there's just not a lot of humor for me in slavery.

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dwmte says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:45:

you're right hollywood.... that really is over the edge...

dw

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:48:

"old, grey-haired, with false teeth" hello....I need a little help with this one..
Chees,
Desi
(my personal slave for the weekend....sounds good, I need one of 'em, right now, right here)

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 11, 2005, 16:55:

Desi I don't care if is white, black, green, or red I want an slave

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greenday says on Mar 11, 2005, 17:49:

"trabajando como un negro... para vivir como un blanco..."

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greenday says on Mar 11, 2005, 17:50:

kat1 I'll be your slave!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 11, 2005, 18:01:

Desi...."La Monita" ????? You would not want to be called that in Mexico...."La Mona" or "La Monita" is often a word that Mexicans use to refer to a prostitute.

Oh....the beauty of knowing the various ussages of Spanish in other countries. My favorite word is "Guevon". As any Colombian knows, that word is a word that is quite insulting. However, the same word in Mexico is a synonym for the word "Flojo". (lazy)

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juanalejo says on Mar 11, 2005, 18:04:

mr hollywood I understand that the comment of your acquaintance is more than anything really bad taste. I hope everybody frowned at her.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 12, 2005, 01:14:

On the subject! As you have undoubtably noticed, I have no sense of humour at all and get puzzled by contradictory - confusing - ambiguous - double entendre - statements.

Example: I was sitting in a small quick food outlet in Bucaramangao, I found the name of the town was very hard to pronounce and I enquired of the waitress who spoke some English:

"Please speak slowly. What is the name of this place"

She replied slowly and demurely, " Itssss Burrrgurrr Kingggg dinerrrrr"

I don't get it?

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 12, 2005, 01:38:

LOL I love your sense of humour, jamesvelezhernandez!

Gomezman, lucky for me those were Colombians who used to call me la monita. I'm pretty sure of that. It was not like a nickname really, because it was just a way referring to me without actually trying to pronounce my totally impossible Finnish first name.

I always try to find out where the fruit and other imported stuff come from when I'm shopping in Finland. Once I saw some really disgusting bananas and asked the salesgirl where they came from. She thought they came from Tampere (the nearest town). Oh well, didn't even know they grow bananas in that Finnish province...
(I know I have no sense of humour whatsoever, but I thought it was funny:(

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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dwmte says on Mar 12, 2005, 04:29:

heh, gomez... who told you that guevon was insulting....why, amongst my buddies in colombia, you haven't lived til your best friend realizes you're a guevon...guevon.
dw

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 12, 2005, 06:23:

Dwmte....guevon guevones ...I get ya This happens to be one of my favorite. Even here when I get upset with someone or some people, I will say in English "Bunch of guevones". My friends will say....."bunch of what?"

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 12, 2005, 12:09:

ARMacleod says on Mar 12, 2005, 12:19:

adrimm No.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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ColombianoX says on Mar 12, 2005, 13:10:

"Darker Colombians, in general, are treated like black Americans in the 1940s and 1950s"


Toneloc24,

Are you kidding? Did you see bathrooms or water fountains that were labeled "black" and "white"? Did you see restaurants with signs that said "Whites Only"? Did you see any blacks hung from trees or having crosses burned in front of their homes? Did you ever hear the despicable "N" word in Colombia? Oh that's right, remember, such an odious word doesn't exist in our language.

I suggest you do a little research before making such ridiculous comments. Blacks in Colombia aren't behind mainly because of their skin color, but because most are poor, unfortunately.


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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toneloc24 says on Mar 12, 2005, 13:50:

CX I do admit that I have a lot to earn about Colombia. I know some things, but I'll never consider myself and absolute expert on anything. Therefore, I'm open-minded enough to learn about different cultures. Objectively.

Jim Crow was a North American institution. Much of what you listed existed primarily in the South of the USA, including Florida where I believe you now reside. I hope no other country had/has to endure such complete ignorance and discrimination. However, because the "signs" don't exist in Colombia, does not mean the conditions don't exist. I personally experienced this in your Colombia last year. Twice. It wasn't about my presentation or that of my ex-novia, nor about crowd population, or money. Apparently, you'll never understand any of this.

From MY experiences in Colombia, I asked two questions in the same posts from above that you commented. Can you answer them honestly, or prefer not to.

It's not as simple as just being poor. It's about the lack of opportunitites to be anything but poor. Out of sight, out of mind. So, up on the hills, in the strata 0-1 barrios, is where they mostly stay.

Sorry Desi for having to respond to this in your thread. Definitely not trying to hijack it. But this dude has been to a different Colombia than I've seen, and will be going back to next month.

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 12, 2005, 14:11:

not a problem with me, toneloc I'm pretty good getting off the topic myself and I don't really mind at all, as long as we are having a meaningful dialogue.
I'd like to add that I kind of see both sides on this issue. I never saw any signs of true racism in Colombia. Classism, yes, but not racism. Having the right education, the right connections and ambitions a black person would be about in the same position of an indigineous, mestizo or a poor white to advance in life. There are a exceptions to this rule, of course, but to bring US. type of racial issues to the Colombian society would indeed be borrowing trouble.
The main problems a black person in Colombia would be, as ColX already stated the poverty, the lack of education and not being connected with the "right" people. The black communities in Chocó, Cauca and Nariño have been neglected and kept in ignorance for many decades. Some people are openly racist, but that is not anything typical to Colombia. On the contrary, my experience has been that Colombians are very relaxed about racial issues.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ARMacleod says on Mar 12, 2005, 15:14:

Why did this racist issue have to appear here in the first palce

Long time ago (circa 65), when I was stationed abroad I sometimes picked my daughter up from school. We were leaning over the school fence one day and my daughter pointed out her friend to me.

There were at least 50 kids running around and I had a problem sorting exactly which one she was talking about.

"See dad she is facing us now" (along with at least 20 others).
"No, Which one"?
"Susan has the white socks on" (along with 40 others).
"No babe' too many white socks"
"SUSAN!!!" at the top of her voice
And at last the child run across to us.
"Pleased to meet you Susan" and after the normal pleasantries we went back to the car and drove home.

During the journey I ventured "babe it would have been so easy if you had just said it was the black girl"

She looked at me for a while and shrugged eventually,
"never thought of that dad"

It is the adult who, by his prejudices and biassed ignorance instils in his children these things. We are not born prejudiced, we adopt it, but the strong resist it.

No I am not a hypocrite. I had a long and loving relationship with a black lady, and she was a lady in the true sense of the word.

My last wife was from Goa. (Indian /Portugese decent)

My next wife will be a Latino. it is just by chance, I did not go out to select a different skin colour, it just happened.

My best friend was a huge Fijian lad in the army. He saved my life once and I his (we think) he was killed, unfortunately.

And yes I know there are some contra cases, I am speaking generally.

Does this kind of thing have to keep rearing its ugly head, we can be judged by our actions, talking an absentia is a poor substitution and proves nothing but the ability to talk.

Jokes. The trick is to make it so obvious that it is a joke. The jokes today are about the Irish, (Paddy) the Scottish (Jock) The Welsh (Taffy) and about every other nation under the sun, including the blacks. They are JOKES, just that, nothing else. as long as you can take as good as you get it's OK.

Where do we draw the line? Short people? Tall? Blondes? Shy? Brash? Mountains and Molehills seen to spring to mind at this point.

Pax vobiscum , Yanks?

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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kernow62 says on Mar 12, 2005, 16:52:

A little Irish fella is weaving all over the road and a policeman pulls him over. The policeman taps on the man's window with his nightstick and motions for him to roll the window down, so the fella rolls down the window and smilingly breathes a whiskey laden "hellooo" on the policeman.

The policeman says in a rather loud manner "YOU'RE DRUNK", to which the little fella replies, "Thank God for that I thought the steering had gone". (it works better with an Irish accent, just pronounce thank & thought as, tenk and taut)

There is nobody in the world better at laughing at themselves than the Irish, never did a more Catholic nation exist that makes more jokes about thir religion. If the joke isn't about religion it is usually about drinking.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 12, 2005, 17:08:

two observations One: in response to ColombianX's assertation that there is no or little racism here. My Colombian nanny is black. It never occurred to me that this might even be an issue. In fact, it didn't even occur to me when I was hiring her. But my Colombian friend who gave me the referral said later, "I'm so glad you hired her. She was having a really tough time finding a job because most upper-class Colombians won't hire black help. They say they're not trustworthy and will steal from you."

Now, mind you, this comment comes from a very upper class, well-educated Colombian woman who is definately NOT prejudiced but has been around a lot and knows the realities of her social peers. I'll take her word for it that this is a real problem.

Likewise, saying people are socially downtrodden because they're poor is the same as saying people were killed because they were dead. You're confusing cause and effect. If everyone were treated equally in the US, Colombia or wherever, regardless of race, you simply would not see race and economic class mapping so closely.

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ColombianoX says on Mar 12, 2005, 18:12:

"One: in response to ColombianX's assertation that there is no or little racism here."


I never asserted either of those things. Of course there's racism in Colombia, but it just isn't the salient issue that it is in other countries.

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 12, 2005, 19:17:

I disagree that it is not a salient issue. Colombians may not think so but they don't think sexual harassment is either and it's all over the Colombian work place. The laws here against discrimination and for affirmative action amaze my wife.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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platano says on Mar 12, 2005, 19:42:

ColombianoX, we do have the "N" word
The word used despectively for blacks in Colombia is "niche".

It is also curious that even though rural areas contain black, mestizo, indigena, and white poor, the majority of the "muchachas de casa" seem to be black or indigena. Why? Racism?

Getting back to humor, North Americans might be offended when we say jokingly, "No entendí nada, me quedé gringo!" Implying gringos are stupid?

And in general I think a lot of the sexual humor is due to being 95% Catholic and the church teachings are not that sex is a means of spiritual realization, sex is something to be restricted and repressed outside marriage. So a lot of that sexual repression ends up being expressed in humor.

Here's a Colombian joke for you:

A woman on a bus has a baby in her lap. A man looks down at the baby and says to the woman: "That's the ugliest baby I've ever seen!" Well, the woman starts crying and she cries so much the bus driver becomes concerned. He stops the bus, goes into the corner tienda and comes back onto the bus saying, "Lady, please stop crying. Here I brought you a cup of coffee. Please don't cry anymore. And I also brought you a banana for your monkey."

:)

Plátano

plátano

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juanalejo says on Mar 12, 2005, 20:11:

UC Off course the laws have to amaze your wife, they amazed me when I lived in the US, and it was because I grew up not even thinking about race as an issue. Then when you reach a country where race is such an issue that it has to amaze you the laws that had to be put in place to avoid those issues. Just like Desi says the problem is that from centuries ago the blacks have been neglected and that is an entirely different problem, the nation forgot the Choco as much as it forgot Putumayo. So those who live in those areas have had very little access to anything that can make them better, and that unfortunatelly has included areas with high percentage of blacks.

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ColombianoX says on Mar 12, 2005, 20:22:

Platano,"Niche" is actual Platano,

"Niche" is actually the antithesis of the "N" word. It is an affectionate term for black people in Colombia, used especially in Cali. Do you think that the great salsa band Grupo Niche would call themselves that if it was a racist term?

Juanalejo,

Excellent response! There aren't many sexual harassment laws either because colombian women actually don't get offended when you tell them how pretty they look at work. God Bless Colombia!

Mr. Hollywood sums it up best:


"One thing I like in Colombia is a lack of sexual uptightness. By that I mean you can tell a woman that she's looking really hot and she won't take it wrong. Likewise, there's a nice level of friendly flirtation that just doesn't fly in the USA"



ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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juanalejo says on Mar 12, 2005, 20:27:

platano your commentary about the empleadas domesticas is not true, in Colombia depending on the city the empleadas tend to be from an area close to the city where economic conditions were not the best. Hence in Cali you see a lot of black empleadas, in Medellin you see more white or Black, in Bogota you see a mix of white or Indian, and in the caribbean cities you see more caribbean black.

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platano says on Mar 12, 2005, 20:33:

ColombianoX, Grupo Niche using the word niche is an appropriation of a negative word as an affirmation of pride. Black became a positive word in the USA civil rights movement with Black Panthers, Black Power, and Black Pride. NWA (Niggers with Attitude) appropriated the N word, as to say "Here we are, we're niggers with attitude, accept it! Grupo Niche has followed a similar pattern of verbal jiujitsu by appropriating an despective word into the name of their group as if to say, "deal with it" in much the same way homosexuals subverted the insult "queer" by adopting it: "We're here and we're queer" they chant in gay pride marches.

My apodo is platano, which is a green banana. I've been called a fool. I subvert that by accepting that label and wearing it with pride. Only a true fool can do that!

Plátano, the fool and proud of it!

P.D. Note that makes me a victim of foolish pride! :)

plátano

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ColombianoX says on Mar 12, 2005, 20:44:

Platano,Nice try but wh Platano,


Nice try but when have you ever heard a non-black colombian refer to a black colombian as "ese at #$% at niche!" or something similar. I have NEVER heard the word "niche" used in a derogatory context by any colombian, but the word 'nigger" on the other hand is always a slur when used by non-blacks in the USA.


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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platano says on Mar 12, 2005, 21:20:

Unfortunately I've heard it much too often.... CX,

The word niche is used in an insulting way by non-black (mestizo and white) Colombians when referring in a negative way to an afrocolombiano. I have heard this myself many times in Colombia. I have also seen it in print on Colombian forums. For example:

Posted by De Pardo Sep 26 2004, 05:44 PM on Controversia.biz _ Zoociedad _ Macondo

"No joda Andreita tenes que estar mamandome gallo para salir con estas!, lo que si es casi fijo es que Rueda no va a convocar a Pachequito. Que vaina ese Niche rosquero!"

CX, does that sound like a complimentary use of the word "niche" to describe an afrocolombiano?

plátano

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platano says on Mar 12, 2005, 21:48:

CX, I'll try again! Here's the dictionary definition of "Niche"

Niche--Persona de color o que vive en un lugar marginal, por lo general de bajo nivel cultural y económico

Kind of like a person of "low cultural and economic level who lives in a marginal place"

In the USA a marginal place might be thought by some to be a mobile home, a house trailer. Just as the term "trailer trash" developed in the USA to insult people of "low cultural and economic level", the same happens in Colombia with the word "niche".

However, you are also right that at times the word "niche" is used as a term of endearment and I have heard it used that way, too. But from context and tone of voice you can certainly tell when it is being used as an insult.

Was that a better try? :)

Plátano

plátano

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platano says on Mar 12, 2005, 22:57:

Grupo Niche appropriated niche Just like USA country music songs about being proud to be a "redneck", or now, the big thing in the USA is "trailer trash dolls" selling like hotcakes and country songs proclaiming pride in being "trailer trash".

Since Grupo Niche took the word niche and used it to describe their great salsa band people of color in Colombia can point to Grupo Niche and feel proud. The word in Colombia now has a public positive association at variance with its original meaning.

plátano

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fzrdan says on Mar 13, 2005, 00:31:

cx "Excellent response! There aren't many sexual harassment laws either because colombian women actually don't get offended when you tell them how pretty they look at work. God Bless Colombia!"

Yeah, I am sure they love being forced into sexual situtations also because it makes them feel 'pretty'. Colombians have told me stories about the sexual harrasment in Colombia. Telling a woman she is pretty is one thing,forcing her into sexual situations or face losing her job, that is an entirely different story.

I have heard too many of these stories (Friday night as a matter of fact) so please don't tell me it doesn't exist.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 13, 2005, 01:50:

My last word on the subject Things do not always go to plan.

I went out shopping with my daughter and on her suggestion bought a pair of gloves for my novia in Colombia. She bought a pair of knickers for herself and we handed them in to be wrapped up, unfortunately a note that I had prepared previously was put into the wrong package and shipped off to Colombia.

My darling A..........

I chose these because I noticed that you are not in the habit of wearing any when we go out in the evening. If it had not been for my daughter I would have chosen the long ones with the buttons, but she wears short ones that are easier to remove.

These are a delicate shade, but the lady I bought them from showed me the pair that she had been wearing for the past three weeks and they were hardly soiled at all. I had her try yours on for me and she looked really smart even though they were a little tight on her.

She also told me that her pair helps to keep her ring clean and shiny, in fact she had not needed to wash it since she had begun wearing them.

I wish I were there to put them on for you for the first time, as no doubt many other hands will touch them before I have a chance to see you again.

When you take them off remember to blow into them before putting them away as they will naturally be a little damp from wearing.

Just think how many times my lips will kiss them during the coming year. I hope that you will wear them for me when I return to Bogota.

By the way, it is fashionable here to roll the top down a little to show a little hint of fur.

Yours with love

James

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 13, 2005, 03:00:

very funny! jamesvelezhernandez.

I have no problem with jokes of any kind of in general, except maybe the racist ones, but I thought my Colombian brother-in-law's concept of what is funny is way out of line. He told me that when one of the secretaries (a spinster) had a birthday the guys got together and gave her a "consolador" (I don't know what it's called in English) as a present. She was offended and furious and he couldn't understand why. They thought it was a good joke...
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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ARMacleod says on Mar 13, 2005, 06:13:

Desi; In English... It would be a 'dildo' I have no idea where the name came from.

That joke would not go down well in most situations and I shudder what the poor lady must have thought.

When men or ladies gather in groups it is 'beware the member of the opposite sex who crosses their path'.

' Beware the power of idiots en masse'

JVH 2005. Pax vobiscum

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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ARMacleod says on Mar 13, 2005, 06:37:

One for the Colombians
Venezuelas worst air disaster occurred early this morning when a small two-seater Cessna plane crashed into a cemetery.

Venezuelan search and rescue workers have recovered 1826 bodies so far and expect that number to climb as digging continues into the night.

Reuters

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 13, 2005, 07:05:

Fzrdan....you are correct While I think the application of sexual harassment laws in this country are overly (and unecessarily) broad in the US. Colombia on the other hand can use some improovment in this category. Sexual Harrasment is commonplace in Colombia. Women can lose their jobs if they don't aquiese to the demands of their boss.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 13, 2005, 08:12:

what about if the boss is a woman and harasses male employees? Ask a Colombian male and there's a smile on his face and he'll say...which company, I want to apply for a job there!
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 13, 2005, 09:08:

Sexual harrassment There's a big difference between having an easy and flirtacious office environment and sexual harrassment. I know for a fact that there are PLENTY of serious cases of sexual harrassment in Colombia, just like anywhere else; men demanding sex from employees, using gender to justify denying people advancement, etc.

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dwmte says on Mar 13, 2005, 10:19:

none of you should be deceivbed... colombia has no corner on the sexual harassment issue. there are assholes and victims all over the world.

in many instances, folks have found them in their own homes.

remember, regime change starts at home

dw

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fzrdan says on Mar 13, 2005, 11:28:

dwmte I don't believe Colombia has a corner on that market. I know that right here in the USA, even with all the laws, it happens all the time. I was just responding to CX.

I believe it is probably worse in Colombia, not only because of the lack of laws, but because the job market is tight and it is much more difficult to get a decent job. The woman would be more likely to deal with it.

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dwmte says on Mar 13, 2005, 12:38:

years ago, when i had 60-70 employees in colombia, i had clear and apparent opportunities to take advantage of my women employees. it's only because it wasn't my style, that i didn't.

as much as the women are incensed at the reality, they are more ofen than not, prepared for the eventuality. because, it's rampant. they even told me. it's a bloody pity.

OR... if i was one of those assholes i mentioned above, i would have been in a favorable place. no humor. just a pathetic, abhorrent reality, that leans on the lives of lesser priviledged humans in every country and every community on this planet. GOD HELP US ALL.

dw

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 13, 2005, 13:43:

fzrdan and dwmte While S/H still happens here, I can tell you that in medium and large sized orginizations, it is almost non existant. Today, these organization "encourage" their employees to attend S/H seminars..to teach them the do's and don'ts. In fact, there are now laws in place that will hold the employer liable for the conduct of the enployee that comitts the harassment. In small business enterprises, is where it is most frequently occuring. First, despite all the public awareness, these people don't think anything will ever happen to them.
Additionally, they (owners of a business) do not realize that they can be held financialy liable for a failure to act on the problem

Like I said earlier, I think the biggest problem that I am hearing about around Chicago, are situations where a woman does not get the promtion she wants...or the raise....or an unfavorable evaluation, and then she turns around and accuses her male supervisor of sexual harrassment.

This is extremely embarassing and frustrating for the employee who is falsely accused. In a way, its like falsely being accused of rape. If someone is accused, if it turns out to be unfounded, the stigma that attaches is horrible and cannot ever really be eliminated. So even if the women never recovers a dollar, the percption of that male supervisor is forever (at least in that orgainization) is tarnished. And what if the man is married? How does he go home and explain this to his wife? In other words, even if the man wins, he loses to some extent. I am begining to think that this is becoming a bigger problem than sexual harrasment itself.

Dwmte, while Colombia does not have the corner of the world on sexual harassment, it is as bad there as anywhere I know. It is not just common in the work place. It happens all the time at the Universities as well. Very often, a women who is open to the idea of getting an easy A in a course, only need to let her male professor know that she is "available" in the form of providing him a sexual favor to help convince him of how deserving she is of the better grade. In Colombia, this occurs often, and is so blatent.

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 13, 2005, 14:09:

What amazes my wife is that she is living in a country where there are actually laws that prohibit discrimination on the basis of sex or race, two things that go on all the time in Colombia. She would tell me about the stuff that went on at Coltejer and I said if that stuff happened here, she'd be a millionaire. But then again, this is the Colombia as Disneyland site, where everything about Colombia is perfect.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 13, 2005, 14:17:

UtC You are right. It never seeks to amaze me that when you say somethinng that is %100 true about Colombia, you get some fool here, who tries to tell you...no that doesn't happen in Colombia. I just can't get it. Or you will get someone who will casually acknowledge the activity by saying..well yea but it happens in other places too.

Who cares if it happens in other places? The fact is that if it happens in Colombia, it happens there. Does it make it any less of a problem in Colombia by saying the same problem occurs elsewhere?

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Mar 13, 2005, 14:21:

dwmte says on Mar 14, 2005, 04:19:

yeah, king james, you have to stop this... your humor made me laugh my a.. off... you know, man, i need that arse, daily, so lighten up.

and don gomez.. maybe boing doesn't qualify as a large corporation, but wasn't the ceo just replaced for looking at the world through his d....k? but i know what you mean.

for all i know, there may be laws in colombia to stop this, but if there are, they are not applied. or for that matter, even applicable. it's the same ole problem, just on a different day. women know they have this problem to deal with from an early age. it happens to all women in colombia who enter the work place. the only acception would be where her fathre owned the business...

dw

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juanalejo says on Mar 14, 2005, 04:38:

Race and Sex Sexual harrasment does exist in Colombia, but now the conversation suddenly moved from racial issues and the laws in other countries to sexual harrasment and the laws for that. There are laws in Colombia for sexual harrasment but the cultural implications of that go far beyond what the law actually can do. There is a need for more education on to what implies sexual harrasment as for many what would be considered sexual harrasment for others it becomes just a little time of fun with the boss. Now what does make me laugh is that many here know about very well but have never been there, they had the chance but my moral background prevented me. Sexual harrasment does not start from the employee or the student, sexual harrasment is when the one in power uses that power to get sexual favours, not when somebody in with lesser power uses favours to obtain a goal. That is plain corruption. In the first case there is a forced implication in the second one there is not. But then again that obviously only happens in Colombia because in other countries the crystal bubble would never allow it to happen.

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kernow62 says on Mar 14, 2005, 04:42:

DW. Boing ja ja that is a mor DW. Boing ja ja that is a more appropriate name than Boeing. I was eating a piece of cinnamon raisin toast and just spit a raisin on the cat. ja ja

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dwmte says on Mar 14, 2005, 05:02:

ya know, kernow, that's what the ex ceo thinks about now. boing/boeing it's all about the same. si o no?

dw

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 14, 2005, 07:23:

dwmte I really don't get your point. First of all, sexual harrassment is so common in Colombia, ----now you have me laughing...whatdifference does it make if they don't have laws to prevent it, or they have laws and and just don't apply them??? Can you explain that to me? The result is the same. Hence what is your point. If they they have laws, and don't apply them, that is even more of a shame. It only substantiates my contention that that Colombia's legal system is horribly dysfunctional. Colombia has laws prohibiting prostitution. You would not know that if you have been there. I have seen more hookers walking the centro area of Bogota than I have seen in any other centro area in the world. I am sure there are place with more, but Bogota, and Colombia for that matter is a cesspool of prostitution.

I tend to think that there are no laws, or no laws with any substance, that prohibit sexual harassment. It is so blatent and prevelant

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juanalejo says on Mar 14, 2005, 16:06:

Prostitution is absolutely legal in Colombia, so legal that they are entitled to special benefits given their profession, and special protection by the government both in health and personal security. This is not the US where they have to run away from the law that is if they do not fall for an undercover police before they can run. There are absolutely no laws banning the profession or the customers in Colombia.

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 14, 2005, 21:27:

Juanalejo..."Absolutely legal in Colombia" ? Sometimes I wonder if we are talking about the same Colombia (Bogota specificlly) as I am.

All I can say is --You are WRONG!! Just ask the prostitutes that kept swept off the 15 (CR 15) between Cl 85 and 100 at night. They get swept off the 11 too, by the way. When those police come by with those flashing lights, and the girls go running, I guess that is what you call absolutely legal??? Strange. Ironically enough, I know the area at least is well if not better than you since my family lives near there. I even see the same girls all the time. Sometimes I even by them coffee.

I can assure you, they will tell you it is not absolutely legal. Now the police may "look the other way', or selectively enforce the law, but to say it is absolutely legal is a virtual impossibility if the police from time to time take these girls to jail. What are they jailing them for? Breathing?

Juanalejo, sometimes I think you seem to like to seek me out, fire your best shot, knowing full well that you don't even believe what you say.

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kernow62 says on Mar 14, 2005, 23:06:

Perhaps Gomez you can cite the specific law. According to this rather sad report on Colombia's sex industry it is legal.

http://www.protectionproject.org/human_rights/countryreport/colombia.htm

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 05:29:

Mr Gomez It is illegal to work as a prostitute in those mentioned areas are they are residential areas, that is another story. But prostitution is legal in Colombia, and I hope it stays that way. When guys stop looking for them, their business will go bankrupt, but as long as there are people looking for them, why should they be stigmatized and persecuted. I really think you need to start looking into Colombia in a more objective way and not through the Chicago perspective. I live here and know what I am talking about. Your insults are really tiring, especially because they come from somebody who argues by what you have been told, not from personal experiences. This country needs the help of those interested in the really helping, not from those who are trying to justify their self exile.

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kernow62 says on Mar 15, 2005, 05:38:

Ah, so the areas where they are allowed to sell themselves is restricted, that makes sense. Very civilised.

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 06:28:

Zonas de Tolerancia Exactly and they are called Zonas de Tolerancia. I know there is one in between Calle 13 and Calle 26 and between Carrera 10 and Avenida Caracas, they have police at night to protect the girls from the drunks or others. There is a very good tv show called ciudad X in City Tv channel and they just show the "dark side" of the city from the perspective of the people who actually participate in that life.

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toneloc24 says on Mar 15, 2005, 08:09:

Zonas de Tolerancia!!!! LOL!!! I nominate whichever genius that came up with that idea in Bogota for a perpetual Nobel Prize. Can I do that? LOL!!!

La Piscina, Atunes, Adunes, Las Paisa Bar, Casones, etc!!!!!

"PBH is dead!!!!"

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Gomezman5 says on Mar 15, 2005, 08:25:

"Absolutely legal" & "illegal to work"...... In mentioned areas. There is nothing like a contradiction....especially when it comes out of your own mouth. (hand)You cannot have it both ways. If it is absoultel legal, that means it is legal WITHOUT restriction. You certainly implied that.
In other words, don't be so dogmatic.

Now as to my assessment of the situation in Colombia. Your logic, or lack of it is interesting. Don't you think that the fact I know about prostitution in Bogota with such specificity means that I just might have a little more than a casual relationship with the city, as opposed to your erroneous belief that I am just a Chicagoan who operates on hearsay??? I lived in Bogota, and I visit it twice a year...sometimes three time. I have been returning to see my family since 1982-3. I talk to my aunts, uncles and cousins every few days.
I read El Tiempo on line, and Semana (albeit 1 week late) regularly.
Now let's try again. Am I really that far removed from the situation?

By the way, I think I do more to help the country than you do. There is an old saying. "You are well on the way to resolving the problem once you acknowledge the existance of the problem." I realize Colombia is one big problem and have ideas for correcting them. You on the other hand, like a lot of people on this site, (Colombia loving Americans included "Hello Kernow62", think Colombia is, as Utopiacowboy puts it, "A disneyland".

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kernow62 says on Mar 15, 2005, 10:06:

I am not American, at least get the facts straight. Oh and it is Disney World.

I love Colombia as much as you love the US. I don't think it is perfect, far from it.

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dwmte says on Mar 15, 2005, 10:25:

i think all you guys are wearing disguises...will the real colombian please stand up?

"what do you think, carlos?" "any of these guys for real?" "dunno, there's somethin strange about all of em." "they all seem to be sayin the same thing, but after they finish talkin, they make it sound like they're arguing." "really wierd, pedro; i just dunno."

"probably just a bunch of puerto ricans..."

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kernow62 says on Mar 15, 2005, 10:31:

Well I will tell you, I am convinced that Gomez is Puerto rican. ja ja ja

No other explanation is plausible.

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 12:25:

Kernow Emigration is hard thing for some and until they feel part (if they ever do) of the other culture they usually love bashing at their home nation as a matter of justifying their self exile. Every excuse is valid to say something negative about the country of origin and state the positive side on the country of emigration. Usually forced exiles are the complete opposite, they miss their country and are able to find the good things where they are and miss the good things where they left. I have come across many self exiles, and I call them that as they are not inmigrants as they play the double role of looking for a nicer, job, house, car, etc, but will actually tell everybody in their new country the dangers and hardships that literally forced them out. Places like Miami are a hot spot for them, they do not live their new culture they simply can not disconnect themselves from their mother country. Now ad onto that the brainwashing of certain countries and then you have a difficult character. It not only happens with Colombians, also with many Argentinians, Mexicans, Venezuelans etc. when they emigrate. I have a cousin also whose accusating role was not taken by the inmigrant, but in this case by her husband, as she never really adapted to the US, her husband is a funny character that is fully embodied in searching negative news of Colombia. Unfortunatelly for him his plan backfired as she now leaves the US for Colombia the first day school is out for the children. In my opinion she would like the US much more if the stopped the brain washing. But then again, to each its own.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 15, 2005, 13:17:

I've been an immigrant for the most part of my adult life. I'm sure that I'm an atypical example since I was never forced to exile and I always had the opportunity of moving back if I felt that I needed or wanted it. The reason I never did is not that I'm not proud of my native country but rather a long string of compromises I've made for the happiness and well-being of my family plus of course, my own well-being.

I have never felt that I needed to bash either my native country or the new one, but the life of an immigrant has its ups and downs.I was very unhappy in Colombia during the first months; the proof of it is a letter I found at my mom's keeping, from my very first time in Colombia in which I wrote that it has been an interesting experience, but I'll be coming home for Christmas. It took me 17 years to come "home" for Christmas. After the initial culture shock I got adapted, and started loving my life in Colombia.

I had no problem adapting in the life in the US; in this case the development was quite the opposite. After the initial thrill and "honeymoon" I started slowly discovering that I didn't really feel like I wanted to become part of the culture and after five more years I finally returned to my native Scandinavia, yet not to Finland but the neighboring country; a new culture and a new language, but similar values and priorities as my Finland. This time there wasn't any thrill but rather slow adaptation, when at times I regretted my choice but felt that I couldn't uproot my family again. So we stayed, and I feel now that it was a good choice.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juanalejo says on Mar 15, 2005, 13:26:

Desi You are obviously not a self exiled, hence your adapting process has always been fine, regardless of liking the new home or not. Maybe that is why we always hear from you balanced views, which see the good and the bad without passions from any of the countries you have been able to live in. That is why you understand where everything is comming from without having to recur to any simplistic propaganda view of good and evil.

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vladimiro says on Mar 15, 2005, 13:45:

Prostitution in COlombia Not sure if this was mentioned, but the girls have to carry a cedula. Those without cedulas get arrested in police sweaps. I believe this is to help protect customers and businesses from crime ( I would guess from getting robbed by some anoymous prostitute that can't be tracked down).

"Look at the full moon, how it has disrupted our sleep,
It shines from the seventh sky at our homeland in ruins" -Rumi

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Mar 15, 2005, 13:53:

I am an immigrant but I never bash my country I love it to bits and I wish I was back there, I know Colombia is no perfect is no “Disneyland” but I lived there most of my live so I know it very well. I never say a bad word about Colombia to my British friend, I always try to change the negatives views that they have about the country and most of them now they want to go. I am glad that I have a husband that support me in this one and he as much as me want to go and live there one day. I like England too because .this is the country that my kids were born and is going to be part of them all their lives even if we move to Colombia I am sure they wouldn’t like people bashing it. What I try to do in this forums is to try to show the positive aspects of Colombia and would not send or give advice to someone about something I don’t know or I haven’t been in Colombia. I love Colombia and I love England .
chao

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utopiacowboy says on Mar 15, 2005, 14:07:

Very nice post, Kat!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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dwmte says on Mar 15, 2005, 16:24:

heh, vlad... i saw that, you thought you'ld sneak that 'rumi-ism' in unnoticed. but i saw it...

did you ever see the photographs of the room, i believe in konya, where the master is buried (entombed)? there's many other saints (?) entombed in the same room. real powerful atmosphere. the kind of place gurdgieff would like to sell painted parakeets...

dw

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