Secuestrado Liberation March on the 20th: Yay or Nay?

august says on Jul 16, 2008, 14:57:

For the record, I´m no FARC sympathizer nor intending to be insensitive to the secuestrados themselves.

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kernow62 says on Jul 16, 2008, 15:07:

Yea or nay.

I say yea, I am all in favour of a good march.

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Lisa Zee says on Jul 16, 2008, 15:26:

The FARC does not give a F.F!. We all can hang from our toe nails and they don`t care. They (FARC) said last time, that all those marching are the rich not the poor, and therefore are not their supporters, something like that!

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Rikito says on Jul 16, 2008, 17:26:

...and who might you be anyway? You have never been to Colombia and obviously do not know much about Caracol or any thing else about what is happening here. I won't go into much for you here because I doubt if you would bother to read it. Besides, there are some other people who will take you to task much better than I could. But, I will say this about Caracol. They had (have) a radio program on the weekends...Sunday night I believe, all night long. It is a call in show that talks about farc, the captives, etc. Many of the captives listen to the show faithfully because many times their relatives would call into the show. Ingrid often heard her mother call the show and others heard their families’ as well. There was no intent to make a profit off of FARC that I know.

You also state, "there’s still millions of people in poverty throughout the country and, thus, the root of the armed conflict remains." This shows a lack of today's knowledge. You can't just sit there and read stories and think you have all of the answers. Your comment may have been true 30-40 years ago but not today and it has not been like this for many years. It's all about drugs. FARC doesn't give a rats ass about the poor...they do care about drug money.

Every country has problems with poverty even in New Jersey...hell, especially New Jersey. If you are in fact, from New Brunswick, New Jersey you are living in a far more dangerous part of the world than Colombia. The only other New Brunswick I have heard of is in Canada and they have serious problems with smuggling into the states. And I would not spend to much time being critical of Colombia’s equal rights problems when you live in a country that thinks that equal rights is a candy bar.

Yes, on July 20th there will be another march and it won’t have much effect. But it will give a message to the farc crap that their efforts to take control of Colombia have no meaning. It will and has shown foolish leaders like Chavez, Correa, and Ortega that Colombia is a Democracy and the people of Colombia have decided by way of the vote who they want to lead them…whether you like him or not.

Are you way off on this one…yes you are in my opinion. But, read and understand what your detractors in here will say about you post over the next 2-3 days. Also, do a search in here at the top right hand of the page and you will find many well written articles and comments in here about farc.

...and if you want to find me on Saunday, I'll be in the central plaza in Armenia looking at the sign made by a guy whose daughter was kidnapped by farc 5 years ago. I will look him and smile out of respect and he will look back at me with a tear in his eye.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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Gator says on Jul 16, 2008, 18:48:

Thank you, Rikito. Well said! Mrs. Gator and I will also be out Colombia will be united on this. ¡Viva Colombia Unida! In Bogotá, alone, the estimate in those turning out is as hight as 3.000.000

Bogotá

Se han organizado seis puntos de encuentro para quienes vayan a participar en la marcha y quieran disfrutar del concierto, que se celebrará en el parque Simón Bolívar.

Estos son los puntos de encuentro de la marcha:

-Parque Lourdes-Avenida 63-parque Simón Bolívar.
-Calle 100 con carrera 15-Carrera séptima-Calle 72.
-Parque Nacional-Carrera Séptima-Plaza de Bolívar
-Autopista Sur con avenida Villavicencio-parque El Tunal.
-Parque Olaya Herrera-Carrera 24-parque El Tunal.
-Avenida Suba con Ciudad de Cali (almacén Éxito)-parque central de Suba.
-Calle 147 con carrera 7-Calle 127 con carrera 7.

La ciclovía se suspenderá a lo largo de la carrera Séptima, pero en los demás corredores viales, funcionará con normalidad, como cada domingo, desde las 7 de la mañana hasta las 2 de la tarde.

There will also be Concerts in Bogotá:

Abrirá la Orquesta Filarmónica de Bogotá y la Sinfónica Nacional. Bajo la orden del conductor Andrés Orozco Estrada, actualmente a cargo de la orquesta Gratz de Viena, estarán 120 músicos.

Luego se dará paso a los sonidos de Primero mi tía, Ensamble Sasonte y Laura Lambuley; Doctor Krápula, Totó la Momposina y Los Aterciopelados.


Cali

Punto de encuentro:

Se incia en la Plazoleta de la Gobernación del Valle del Cauca. Luego el recorrido será hacia la Calle 10 para tomar la carrera 10. Ahí se abordará la Calle 5 y por esta vía a la carrera 1, para llegar a la sede del Centro Administrativo Municipal.

Medellín

Puntos de encuentro:

-La Plaza Botero
-Centro comercial San Diego
-Teatro Pablo Tobón Uribe
-Biblioteca Pública Piloto.

Also Baranquilla, Leticia, Mosquera, Piaipa,La Macarena, Arauca, San Andrés y Providencia, Popayán, Pereira, Pasto and on and on.

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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juancegomez says on Jul 16, 2008, 20:57:

Regardless, I am going to try and do my best to show up, but I've been busy lately, so it's completely possible that I may miss this one.

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webmanco says on Jul 16, 2008, 21:05:

Thanks Gator for the info.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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ixent says on Jul 17, 2008, 04:19:

August, I think you've raised some very legitimate points. Of course this is a great publicity coup for the government which will no doubt help Uribe get a few inches closer to the reeleccion. While the actions of the guerilla are deplorable (and have made them very unpopular) Rikito's view is probably too simplistic that they are in it just for the drug money. Some members of the upper echelons in the guerilla do have a political agenda.

The inequality in the distribution of wealth is definitely a major factor in Colombia's problems which also needs to be addressed. there is still a lot of poverty in Colombia, I think that's undeniable. Peasants are still being displaced by actions resulting from the guerillas, and also the army and supposedly non-existent paramilitaries, which is basically sowing more seeds for future problems. So, by all means march against kidnapping because it is morally wrong but don't fall into the trap of thinking that the farc are the cause of ALL of Colombia's problems. The Colombian problem has many threads which need to be disentangled, not just one.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 04:41:

I say Yay, whatever makes people feel like they're doing something...even though nobody thinks of secuestrados at dinner time, unless they're members of their family.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Rikito says on Jul 17, 2008, 05:37:

ixent, it was not my intent to level one charge against farc and your comment about issues involving poverty are well taken. But, to be less simplistic as you say you have to look at all of South America. In S.A. there are countries with less poverty and greater poverty...Ecuador has a much greater problem with poverty than Colombia...but they are not murdering each other!

Every time I go to visits my wife's family we all end up going to the cemetery to say some priers for their deceased family members. Since we have been doing this a long time they know that when we enter the cemetery the first place we visit is the graves of the soldiers who have lost their lives fighting for Colombia. I always get choked up doing this and someone asked me why I get so emotional. I tell them that there is no need for this...there is no need for Colombian soldiers be killed by Colombian filth (farc). I always ask why are there Colombians killing Colombians...why?

For the sake of being too simplistic let me tell you that this so called war has nothing to do with poverty…probably never did, but that is a good mantra for those fighting for the oppressed. It has always been about power. The farc wants it and the democratically elected government and their citizens are not going to give it to them.

“Some members of the upper echelons in the guerilla do have a political agenda.� Long long ago this may have had truth…but no longer and as I said it has been absent from the mission of farc for 20-30 years at least. But ask yourself…who are the “upper echelons in the guerilla?� There are some very astute people here in PBH who will give you a quick education to show you that the true upper echelons in the guerilla are not in the jungle. They are businessmen wearing three piece suits or $500 dresses. Do you think for a second that someone like Marulanda could lead and hold together a force like farc for 40 years on his own wit? Look, if this guy ever had an ounce of brains he would have been arrested for smuggling shit. Many of these upper echelons do not even live in Colombia and may have never even been in Colombia.

So what do we have today? My view that you say is probably too simplistic that they are in it just for the drug money? You are right…it does sound too simplistic, but talk to anyone with a good knowledge about farc and they will tell that you are correct…my view is too simplistic, but it is the single most important reason for their existence. Farc today does not have a political agenda that does not revolve around drugs, how to grow it, how to produce it, how to market it, how to it, and how to extract profits from the product. Do you think the upper echelons of farc (or as I like to refer to them…filth) are sitting around the ole' camp fire singing revolutionary songs about Che and discussing the new political agenda that will be initiated ounce they are in power?

I was in a seminar ounce that discussed drugs, etc. It was part of a community watch program we were starting. The one thing that stuck with me in the seminar was this…do you know what the most difficult part of being a drug dealer is…(I’ll give you a second to think about it). BING! Wrong answer. The most difficult thing to do is how to disperse all of the money.

“The inequality in the distribution of wealth is definitely a major factor in Colombia's problems which also needs to be addressed.� This is more bogus than my simplistic approach. This is the usual crap you get from a freshman year college course on the Socialist struggle. There is poverty everywhere…Colombia, the U.S., S.A., Africa, Russia and the rest of the world. But it is not a factor in Colombia’s problems and even if it were it does not deserve the random murders, kidnapping, rape, theft, blah, blah blah.

It is about power pure and maybe too simplistic. Those that have it want to keep it, those that do not have it want it. And will attempt to get it by any means.

Where will you be on Sunday?

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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august says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:01:

Rikito, I can understand that you´re pretty emotional about the conflict, but I don´t think that´s any reason to start on the personal attacks.

I am indeed completing a master´s program in public policy in New Jersey, but I don´t live there. I´m living in Medellin where I´m working with an organization to analyze and hopefully dismantle the recruitment dynamics of illegal armed groups.

It turns out that actually it does still have a lot to do with poverty. I agree that whatever political message of populist revolution propagated by the FARC secretariat is BS, but the problem has to be tackled lower down in the ranks if we really want to see change. The problem is that people are joining these armed groups (to be practical we really have to group the FARC in with any other armed group linked to the cultivation, production and trafficking of drugs) and staying in them because they see no better opportunities elsewhere. So you´re also correct that it is all about power: marginalized people (more accurately, youth) who want to feel some sense of power, with power being something as simple as money. And these armed groups provide that. Kids are often recruited from the hardly legal, but less formal circles they´re already running in because participation in these more formal armed groups is one, even slight, step up.

But often its not just a slight step up. Let´s talk about the demobilized paramilitaries. They receive a monthly stipend from the gov´t as an incentive to stick with the reinsertion programs. But then, the desmovilizados are approached by bandas (who provide a number of naro-related services) who are willing to offer them exponentially more plata per month to work for them. Maybe if these kids stick with the reinsertion program they´ll receive a little bit of a push towards an education, but taking that money is just a helluva lot easier if they want respect (or power, as you put it) ya.

As far as examining why people are led to cultivate coca, there´s really nothing more than poverty to explain that one. There are no other options for comparable or better income. That´s as much a part of the problem as the power hungry heads of the guerrilla or purely narco-trafficking organizations. Why isn´t this happening in other South America countries you ask? It is. Talk to any of the Andean neighbors.

So basically I´m saying that this problem is going to require a much more complex solution than buying "No Más FARC" t-shirts and marching in your local centro. I´m just worried that the pueblo is really being distracted from that need by being made to feel like they´re affecting some kind of change with this march.

As far as Caracol goes, I agree they do sometimes provide services to ameliorate the conflict (secuestrado family call ins, as you point out), but then they´re awful two-faced it seems to be promoting violence with their worthless bloody movies they show. How do you justify their programming? If they really were a bastion against the armed conflict, wouldn´t their programming be more solidly insightful?

And for the record, Rikito, this is my fourth trip to Colombia, where I´ve seen a good amount of the Northern half of the country.

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 07:04:

What should Caracol show then? Barney cartoons all day long?

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Rikito says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:07:

august, ok I apologize for apparent personal attacks, but you are still wrong about the poverty. People joining farc? Hardly. Being forced to join because they will kill their family...more than likely. Also, your observation on the poverty issue is more than likely from a book. And no one thinks that the march will affect change...it is their way of expressing themselves.

and it isn't the "marginalized people (more accurately, youth) who want to feel some sense of power, with power being something as simple as money." If you truly believe this you need to take another course. The power is derived from the rich, the politically powerful, etc. See who is getting caught with their hands in the cookie jar. it isn’t some kid with a few pesos wanting more.

I don't know who or what is going on with the N.J. Masters program, but if you are learning all of your opinions through this program someone is taking your money and not giving you anything in return.

As for Caracol...they show what people want to see and the Colombian people want to see tits and ass. Besides, the people who make these programs have a very limited amount of creativity to produce something else that does have tits, ass, murder, kidnapping, murder, and more kidnapping. There are many other posts in here discussing Colombian film makers and their lack of creativity.

Finally, your post is not drawing the depth of responders I though would comment…which might be a signal that there is not much in here worth talking about. Since this is my last response, I will wish you well.

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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Cerealkiller says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:22:

Rikito I beg to differ, although what you mention regarding people being forced into FARC (or other criminal organizations) is true, most people have been recruited voluntarily. Some are promised salaries and money for their families and offered a three month period of time to decide whether they want to stay or not, which is often a lie but most people have joined FARC and the AUC without having had a gun pointed to their heads.

If you look at the testimonies of people who have been caught or decided to demobilize you will find a wide range of reasons for joining criminal organizations. Mainly: they were offered money, they enjoyed the prestige that came with that, or joined because the enemy (guerrillas or paramilitaries) killed members of their family and they now want revenge...this last one is often the case of women who have joined voluntarily. I am not saying some are not forced into FARC, just that most aren't.

August, you're spot on.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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august says on Jul 17, 2008, 08:29:

Haha, nice one Rikito. Actually, my master´s program has nothing to do directly with the armed conflict in Colombia. I learned all of that on the ground here from working with people working at all levels of the conflict. So no, as much as you´d like to write off my thoughts as academic mental meanderings, I´m afraid that just doesn´t hold much water in this case. I´m not sure which supreme authority you´re drawing your knowledge from (What does Rikito do anyways? How is he an expert? And if he is an expert, why hasn´t he solved the puzzle and brought peace to Colombia?), but your lack of flexibility in thinking is pretty impressive. Your anger and deference to "oh you just don´t know anything" looks more like the frustration of confusion to me. Yay or nay?

Also, thank you for confirming that Caracol is no more than a ratings whore. We can agree on that one.

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2008, 12:58:

"Also, thank you for confirming that Caracol is no more than a ratings whore. We can agree on that one.'

I know of no commercial station that isn't, do you?

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