second language acquisition and the adult learner

rocinante says on Aug 21, 2006, 21:20:

more.... but be warned - I'm a huge advocate of adults starting off in a controlled environment with all the grammar and correction AND ACCENT up front with communicative woven in - 80%/20% with that being reversed after each grammatical "milestone" has been achieved.

To start I'm all for introduction of pronouns, some simple noun adjective vocabulary and then heavy present tense in every form with an emphasis on verb vocabulary. Follow that with heavy and I mean heavy preterit, Drill the hell out of the student so that they have 3rd person plural down pat (for imp subjunctive), ir + a + infinitive, progressive and formation of the gerund and then imperfect. Then go communicative for a good spell thereafter because at this point the student can talk in all three tenses. At this point (during communicative) hit some vocabulary (and noun adjective agreement, demonstratives etc... ) and then go back to grammar by introducing future and conditional together. Now the student should have 1st, 2nd and 3rd conjugation down pat and have no problem for the switcharoo – meaning they will be ready for the imperative or present subjunctive whatever you want to do next and then on to the hard stuff (DO/IO pronouns and prepositions, compound tenses with haber and the rest of the subjunctive and sequence of tenses.

Of course there’s other stuff that needs to be put in there but my main thing is that if the adult starts off communicative only they will take so much longer in “getting it� through osmosis. Having the grammatical base before communicative is such a huge advantage as long as the student doesn’t shoot himself in the foot by over monitoring, which the instructor needs to handle – as well as handling the boosting of the student’s confidence.

I think that an adult with the aptitude, motivation, a golden relationship with the instructor and a respect or admiration for the people of the target language can attain near fluency within 3 years if full immersion follows the above which is in my estimate 400- 500 hours 1 on 1.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 21, 2006, 21:30:

Not a bad course, Rocinante, if taught by a beautiful Colombiana in bed.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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David in Idaho says on Aug 21, 2006, 21:58:

Finally home from work and able to respond ... Rocinante, thanks for wanting my opinion. As this is my area of expertise, I never get bored talking about it, although most people will probably just write us off as a couple nerdy teachers. That's a compliment!

In short, I'd say that your approach sounds quite sound. I for one am a big fan of Krashen and do believe that, given enough time and devotion, a learner will acquire a language if exposed to enough i+1. For those of you who haven't read Krashen, this is shorthand for comprehensible input. This is target language (in this case Spanish) that is just beyond the learner's ability to produce, but within their ability to understand. It can be written or spoken. For example, show a second grader a 1000 pages of medical journals and they may never pick up the language. But give them Dick and Jane, and although they wouldn't be able to write such a book, they will be able to make sense of it. Krashen believes that as the mind processes this input, the LAD (language acquisistion device) or "part of the brain that handles this task" will slowly but eventually sort out and make sense of the intricacies of grammar, without actually studying it overtly. The biggest problem with i+1 is finding it! Most teachers don't know the precise point at which input becomes incomprehensible, so we constantly barrage our students with stuff that is either too easy to be helpful, or too hard to be inteligible.

Rocinante, I agree with you that the best approach is usually a compromise. Certainly, grammar taught in isolation is a waste of time. It must be attached to real language interaction for it to stick. But sitting around waiting for the LAD to make sense of the grammar could take years. Sometimes it doesn't even work all that well. Just look at the huge portion of US English speakers that have been raised in a constant setting of i+1 and still haven't figured out what English grammar is and how it works. (Just read through some of these threads and you'll see what I mean!) So, in theory, your strategy is the same as mine. Teach grammar, answer questions, drill students, and then provide an authetic, risk free context for the learners to practice the target items. Provide coaching and modeling when communication breaks down, but also allow for a certain degree of healthy struggle. No one learns to swim if they are constantly held up by flotation devices. You have to kick and flail!

We may differ a little on the logical sequence of instruction. For one thing, it looks like you have the imperfect subjunctive way too soon in the program, before such "gimmes" as the perfect tenses. These are a piece of cake in Spanish, since you only need to learn the conjugation of one verb (haber) and the past participle which is a highly regular form. The imp. subj, in my opinion, is extremely difficult. For one thing, the subjunctive has all but vanished from English, with a few lingering holdouts. This means, not only does the gringo have to learn how to form the tense, they face a much more difficult task learning how to recognize subjunctive situations. After 22 years of Spanish, I still make errors in this area. To make it worse, you've got duplicate conjugations! Redundancy is annoying in any language, forcing us to learn two ways of saying the exact same thing: very inefficient.

Your observations about teacher-student rapport and relationship with the target culture are right on track. Also, your prediction of the average timeline sounds pretty accurate based on my experience, but of course, individuals vary greatly, so such averages must also allow for extreme cases on either end. I've seen people attain fluency in a year. I mean fluency, not communicative competence. I've seen others struggle for a decade and still have a hard time ordering a cerveza. (We call these ones "job security" for us teachers!)

I'm glad this part of the thread got rescued. Truly, it didn't belong in the one that got shut down, since this topic is quite valid. In fact, I too would support a forum for such topics, since most gringos involved with Colombia are somewhere along the process of acquiring Spanish.

Again, thanks for the good questions. I look forward to some interesting dialogue,

David

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 21, 2006, 22:02:

Got that right. Subjunctive is a bitch even when taught by a beautiful Colombiana in bed.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Crazy4Cali says on Aug 21, 2006, 22:09:

The beautiful colombiana principle Come on, how many hours of study does it take to say "Ay! mamacita!" well enough to go on to the next lesson?

To be honest, I couldn't tell you. I'm STILL practicing!

In fact, I think it's time for another lesson ;)

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David in Idaho says on Aug 21, 2006, 23:41:

subjunctive in bed Actually, there are quite a few occasions where a command of the subjunctive would be useful in bed.

Translate the following:

I want you to take off your clothes.
I doubt you can handle this, but let's try.
The doctor recommends we do this more often.
I wish you would talk dirty to me.
I'm looking for a lover who can do the tango while tying knots in cherry stems with her tongue.

As you can see, the subjunctive opens a whole new realm of erotic possibilities.

Send me $199.95 for the interactive CDRom tutorial. (must be over 18, offer not valid in Utah)

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famsearch says on Aug 22, 2006, 01:02:

in my learning of spanish... i started panic learning spanish roughly 5 years ago, with the help of my sister in law. started out with the most used verbs and such. as part of my learning was writing to my wife, first i wrote in english, then had my sister in law translate. i gradually went from that, to writing first in english, then spanish, with editing by my sister in law. then to doing it on my own, to eventually just writing in spanish only. then we worked on the spoken side. first with her translating for my wife and i, working to where i can hold conversations with few if any problems. there is still the bit of a curve thrown at me when she uses words i'm not familiar with, or speaks too fast, but that comes with time and practice. with spanish as my fifth language (english, german, latin, and french), it wasn't too hard, with my latin as a base, but with 56 ways to conjugate 501 verbs, that got to be a headache, until i decided to keep it simple. i may sound like a refugee from a 4th grade class at times, and under certain circumstances i'm surprised by my fluency (usually under stress), but at least i get the point across. the two trips (with the resultant total immersion) were a big help, and my colombian in laws had a higher opinion of me, because i took the time and effort to try to communicate in their language. they were expecting to have my sister in law translating for me almost all the time. oh well, at least that's how i learned, and i expect to learn more after my wife gets here, and we start building he english skills. one nice thing that way, is that my landlord has friends who teach english to spanish speaking people, and will get us together after she arrives.
dan

dan

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 22, 2006, 03:05:

another angle to learning Spanish It took me a few years but I am totally fluent in Spanish now. I have no problem with grammar, verb conjugation, tenses, pronouns etc. whatsoever. I can read and understand any text in Spanish as well as I could in my own native language. I write Spanish as well as my native language. I do have a slight accent when I speak it, however, and I suppose I'll never get rid of it.
I have never studied Spanish in a classroom.

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 05:42:

Desi and David Desi, you're like the Mexican guy who learned fluent Hebrew with nary a class - it took him 13 years but he did it (link in my first post above). I don't know his proficiency in regards to ability to expound on many topics but he had no accent and handled conversation really well...

Yeah David I left out a bunch and didn't mention the compound tenses as they are a piece of cake because of Haber and you know.... - one of my favs is present of Haber + Estado + gerundio to have been "something" with indefinite time (time optional)- or Llevar + time + gerund to have been doing something for specific time. Most books don't teach either and use "desde hace" or "hace que" for the latter and these two are the least used.

The compound tenses are easy and I have a great Haber chart, also I have a great sequence of tenses chart that if you really know your conjugations (identifying tenses) you can easily plug in any verbs based on the chart and the context of meaning is the same down the line with the first example being present indicative in the Si clause to having a choice of Present Indicative/Futuro Proximo/Future as the result clause. There are only three more lines so the chart is pretty compact. After time this monitor falls off after much communicative “exercises� or drills.

for the record a highly regarded person told me that Imp Subjunctive and Pluperfect Subjunctive in the Si clause although it may be more common for the result clause to be the same tense as the Si clause, that the conditional and conditional perfect is more accepted by the Real Acedemia in Spain and is just all around better Spanish.

Si me ofreciera un puesto, lo aceptaria (cond sin acento)

As opposed to

Si me ofreciera un puesto, lo aceptara (Imp Sub)


Or

Si me hubiera ofrecido unpuesto, lo habria aceptado (again the prefered cond)

As opposed to

Si me hubiera ofrecido un puesto, lo hubiera aceptado (Plu Sub)

(sorry no accents on this keyboard, but you get what I mean)

Do you think this is the case or just splitting hairs?

Also there is a great Ser vs Estar book (90 pages)- which is a bit over kill but has some really great examples - PM me and I'll send the Amazon link and if you'd like I can send you my sequence of tenses chart.

By the way I'm a motivated student and not a teacher, but I'd like to create a course one day for the adult learner for teachers to use. I have taught at the university level but not spoken languages – only computer languages and a little music. I+1 is Sooooo important that “learning� after being introduced to a topic will never take place or solidify in the head of a student. My training in Spanish is having a terrific three month 1 on 1 crash course (30 hours a week) with grammar and i+1 reinforcement, coupled with spending so much time in MDE I don't need an interpreter for anything unless it's a very technical topic and I've only been studying since December which was when my 3 month course started. It ended when my instructor (born gringo but native fluent and able to switch accents) moved to Puerto Rico.

There is so much to talk about regarding this topic. Also before getting to the conditional and imperfect subjunctive I like to "teach" "me daria una cervveza", "quisiera una cerveza" and "me gustaria...." all after learning the IO + gustar/encantar etc... construct.

Even though the "tenses" are/should be taught later on, poder and querer and the conditional are so common in requests that I feel it's necessary to get those few little tid bits out of the way so that while the student is practicing they can order stuff in bars and restaurants before having learned the imperfect subjunctive – when they get to it the instructor can say, “see you’ve been using this and you didn’t even know it!�

OK I gotta run to work and have no time to proof read this -there could be a multitude of mistakes in both languages and in content as well.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Miguel says on Aug 22, 2006, 06:28:

Keep it going guys This is an interesting discussion.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 06:35:

Very amusing, David in Idaho.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 22, 2006, 08:03:

Of course, I had the advantage of living in Colombia at the same time, which makes me (hopefully) look a little less like an oddball, rocinante. Also the fact that Spanish was my third language and I was already familiar with the process of learning and could handle the grammar. It didn't take 13 year either, more like three. So, acquiring a new language as an adult without any formal classroom instruction is fully possible, just not very common. The biggest problem I see in learning a new language is getting the full scope, an adequate vocabulary for a grown-up, not just becoming fluent with a little. The core vocabulary can be taught, or learned, from textbooks but beyond that the learner is on his/her own.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 08:15:

"The biggest problem I see in learning a new language is getting the full scope, an adequate vocabulary for a grown-up, not just becoming fluent with a little." Exactly my problem at times.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Miguel says on Aug 22, 2006, 08:57:

por lo menos Yo entiendo la diferencia entre mis cajónes y mis cojones.

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 09:31:

I used to live in El Cajon, Calif. Or was it El Cojón?

Now you've got me all confused!

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 10:04:

Rocinante, you're right on Hola de nuevo,

In your analysis of compound sentences formed with subjunctive conditions, I agree that your use of the conditional fits best. For example:

Si me hubieras besado, estaría muy feliz.

In English we would usually say:

If you kissed me I would be happy. But this is a modern (lazy!) version of classically correct English. Truly, it should be:

If you were to kiss me, I would be happy. This form is the English subjunctive, which as I mentioned earlier, is quickly vanishing, to be replaced by the oh so simple preterite. Of course, the closest literal translation sounds exceedingly formal and antiquated:

If you were to have kissed me, I would be happy.

Although Spanish is also undergoing a modernization, whereby certain constructions are becoming more casual and simple, the subjunctive remains alive and well. In English, it is clinging to the language by the hair of its chinny chin chin. (Billy Goat Gruff, anyone?)

One of the places we can still see the subjunctive lingering in English is with the following context:

The doctor recommends that ...
My hot Colombian girlfriend flatly insists that ...
The other posters hope that ...
My grandmother prays that ...


The verb that follows will NOT be conjugated for person. For example:

... I be carefull. ("I be" sounds like gangsta ebonics, except in these rare subjuntive settings when it is actually correct.)

... he eat less chicharrón. (Again, "he eat" sounds like something you'd hear in some snoop dog lyrics - if we can even call them lyrics since they sure as hell ain't lyrical - but in this context, being subjunctive, all conjugations revert to the basic verbal form.)


Rocinante, I was sure you were a fellow educator. But I am impressed to learn that you are not, but rather a very well informed educatee. Good job! I have never met a student with your level of grammatical awareness. In fact, many teachers could learn a thing or two from you.

Your teaching model, which as I understand it includes periodic shifts between overt instruction and communicative practice, reminds me of a tae kwon do class I took in Korea. Of course, the instructor had to teach us, with minute attention to detail, exactly how to do each move. Once we had learned a few basic punches, kicks, and blocks (nouns, verbs, and adjectives) we would spend a few weeks sparring (communicative practice.) Certainly, if all we ever did was have him show us the punches, we'd never learn to fight. Conversely, if all we ever did was spar, I suppose we'd learn to fight, but it sure wouldn't be tae kwon do! I think this analogy illustrates the inherent validity of your approach. When you're done being a student, I think you should be a teacher!

As for the Ser/Estar book - I've seen it. Yes, overkill for a beginner, but the advanced learner will find a lot of interesting stuff. As for the other materials, you can send anything you'd like to share to dtlupien at hotmail.com I'd love to have a look.

I teach English Composition at Boise State University, and I am the director of a language school for adults where I teach Spanish and English. On Monday I'm starting a new job teaching Spanish at the junior high down the street. Yikes! ¡Los niños me van a matar! Pero me encantan.

Gracias

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 10:08:

Una pregunta. Why did you say "¡Los niños me van a matar!"? Could you have said ""¡Los niños van a matarme!"?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 10:17:

both are correct Yes UTC, there are two ways to phrase the same thing. In other words, the direct object pronoun (in this case "me") can be attached to the end of any infinitive (or gerund/progressive) verb (matarme/matándome) but can also move to the beginning of the verb phrase, as in my above example. I have found that the latter is more common, but both are certainly correct. (Gringos tend to prefer your version because it follows the same word order as English.) In all other cases, if the verb is conjugated, the pronoun must go in front. For example, once I am dead, I would say "¡Los niños me mataron!"

Gracias por preguntarme. Me das una buena pregunta.

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 12:15:

Aside from the subjunctive, an area which gives gringos learning Spanish fits is the use and misuse of reflexive verbs. Some people use them sparingly like my wife while other people seem to go overboard. Any tips, Maestro?

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Wastelandlive says on Aug 22, 2006, 12:36:

Huh???!!! I don't think that the correct translation of, "Si mi hubieras besado" is "If you were to kiss me" OR "If you were to have kissed me"

It's simply, "If you had kissed me."

The difference is a fine point having to do with time, and I can't quite put my finger on it... because there are multiple mistakes in your examples. For starters, your examples in our own native tongue are incorrect:

"If you were to kiss me, I would be happy?" "If you were to have kissed me I would be happy?"

No. Non. Nein. Nyet!

"If you had kissed me, I would be happy," is correct, as is "If you were to kiss me, I would be happy," or even "If you had kissed me I would have been happy.

"If you were to have kissed me" is simply a train wreck which - even if completed with a subordinate clause of the appropriate time, such as, "I would have been happy" - is still incorrect.

Yuk. I think you just made my head explode. Thanks Teach.

Wasteland

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 22, 2006, 12:47:

that was a good one! "For example, once I am dead, I would say "¡Los niños me mataron!""

I bet you wouldn't say anything. The kids would say: "Te matamos!"
Or if they almost killed you , you could say: "Los niños casi me matan".

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:36:

Thanks wasteland Your translation is certainly the best in current English. My examples were meant to show the twisted path that English has taken to arrive where it is today.

"If you were to have kissed me" is the archaic, albeit correct English phrasing of a hypothetical past event, to be followed by a conditional event, dependent on the reality or completion of the first one. Of course nobody talks or even writes that way any more. Our subjunctive situations are almost always (but not always) handled now with simpler grammatical structures. Often the preterite takes up this slack. In this case however, modern speakers opt for the past perfect, as in "If you had kissed me ..." A grammar nazi would complain that the perfect tenses do not cover hypothetical events, and they could find textbooks to make their case. But languages are always evolving, and the books are being rewritten to allow tranlastions like yours to be considered correct

Sorry your head hurts.

Like I said, this is the area where I still make most of my mistakes in Spanish.

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:36:

Desideria, I would be speaking posthumously, of course.

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famsearch says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:49:

you know dave... all this talk about conjugating verbs reminds me of the one about the midwesterner who went to boston for the first time. he hopped into a cab and asked the driver where he could get scrod. the driver stared laughing, and he asked the driver what was so damned funny. the driver said that he had heard that question many times over the years, but this was the first time he had heard it in the 3rd person past participle...
dan

dan

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:50:

wasteladive Low on time and resources here - but you write:

"I don't think that the correct translation of, "Si mi hubieras besado" is "If you were to kiss me" OR "If you were to have kissed me"

David is using this antiquated translation of the Englissh subjunctive "were" to illustrate a point - in today's english speech it would never be translated that way and I believe he mentions that in his post - however it is 100% correct use of the english imperfect subjunctive and the pluperfect subjunctive respectively - we just don't use it. But meaning is the same either way - actaully the use of "were" in David's translation adds a pinch more of shakiness than just the plain old "had".

WHY translate it this way?

Sometimes it's easier for the student to grasp the CONCEPT (not the formation) of the subjunctive (or anything) if there is a parallel in the native language or L1 - even if it means wording something different but still comprehensible (in the native language translation).

Which is why every book that talks about some subjunctive phrases emphasizes the translation of QUE being "May" (just like David did with "were") .

For example, a mother tucking her child into bed in Spanish will say:

Que Sueñes con los angelitos = "May you/tu dream of little angels" (your child may not dream of little angels - hence the use of soñar(OUE) in the present subjunctive.

So, literal translation is:

1.) “May you dream with little angels� (which is odd for English speakers - not surprisingly)

but translation EMPHASIZING subjunctive to native English Speakers:

2.) “May you dream of little angels�

But translating as the mother tucking her child into bed in English:

3.) "Dream about little angles" and omit the "May" and in a sense using the imperative but of course sweetly with tone of voice.

Again the "May" above in translation #2 and the "Were" that David points out is not meant to be the real translation as we would say in native English, but translating the Spanish to an acceptable English that we can think of in our heads and better understand the subjunctive (or other tough concept) in our native English.

Next topic: "carrying time" doing something - Llevar + time + gerundio....

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:54:

Dave missed your explanation and was writing mine while you posted yours.
- I hope I have written something that makes it easier to understand why English translations that sound old fashoined are used - to aid the student with an example from native language to target language.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 13:56:

exactly Thanks rocinante, for making my headache-causing illustration a bit clearer.

¡Que sueñes con las colombianitas!

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 14:11:

David We both fixed our ñ at the same time - damned keyboards. I have to go to google and look something up manually and hope for an ñ to appear!

There have been some interesting topics regarding Spanish throughout my time here that are scattered about - one Desi came up with was the translation of the Deer being almost hit by the car. I love that one!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 22, 2006, 14:32:

Right! Make fun of me... and my poor deer that was almost hit, but not quite. I don't recall that one.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 14:39:

UC your Spanish is very respectable -

But generally speaking without total immersion or being a superstar like Desi, it's really easy for one to hit a plateau with some passive and infrequent i+1 or effective intake. The reason being is that the student never really gets the complete grammar necessary in order to have the structure of the whole language (idiomatic expressions not withstanding). As a matter of fact a good deal of what the non grammar adult has in his/her arsenal becomes an idiomatic expression memorized and plugging in verbs or communicative strategies (saying something, albeit correct grammatically, but in a round about way because it's the only way known - which is not wrong but not how the native speakers speak).

My bottom line is that I think that just about any English speaking adult can become fluent in Latin based languages if they have

1.) slightly above average aptitude,
2.) motivation
3.) respect or affinity for the target language and or people.

Couple that with the correct teaching techniques (as mentioned by David in his Kung Fu example) and Immersion for a good period of time and it's a done deal.

Depending on everything and if the immersion can happen after the first 3 months I think 2-3 years is not out of the question and that includes near native fluency and losing all accent.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 14:40:

Desi ".....Luckily for me I missed otherwise I wouldn't be here telling you this story"

You don't remember that post of yours?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 22, 2006, 14:49:

Vaguely, it was a long time ago, I think. Yes, and then there was a discussion about if I had made a grammatical mistake in that sentence, or something like that. Oh, it doesn't matter.

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 15:01:

My main problem at this point is wandering into an area where I have no idea what the words are, like construction equipment or automobile engine parts. I usually just resort to what we used to do in Quebec, use the English word and Frenchify it, "Votre carbureteur a un problème." My wife is a pretty good Spanish teacher but at times, I don't want a lesson in Spanish grammar from someone who after three years, still can't speak anything close to passable English.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 15:10:

The best dictionary on the planet IMHO http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0198604750/102-6336873-1365714?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance&n=283155

Also UC there are dictionary and phrase books that specialize in Medical, Business, Law and other specific topics in Spanish.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 15:18:

¡Tháñks Tíñtó!

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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David in Idaho says on Aug 22, 2006, 15:20:

I just switch the keyboard to international less keystrokes this way

but I used to do all those alt codes too

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 15:26:

a lot of work all those keys Desi here is your post - it turns into an argument about Jesuits but it was great food for thought - I was in my 3rd week of Spanish lessons at that time - so I didn't attempt the translation - but I did take the opportunity to pontificate about Spanish.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2006, 16:15:

Wow, I went to read about the Oxford Dictionary that you mentioned and it sounds positively amazing. I'm going to have to get one.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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rocinante says on Aug 22, 2006, 16:28:

UC It is AMAZING and much better than my girlfriend and your wife as teachers (outside of the bedroom of course). The examples alone are absolutely out of this world. IT MUST be the one in the link - Oxford makes many dictionaries. Order it from Amazon - that exact one. It is easy to make a mistake in ordering. It also comes with a CD that will pronounce everything you type in Spanish.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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Robert Jorge says on Aug 22, 2006, 17:30:

I don't understand how to use those codes. Example, for n with an nyee, you said hit alt + 164. It isn't working. I don't know how to do this, so could you explain step by step exactly what keystrokes? I tried hitting alt and then 164, but my computer just beeps at me and 64 shows up. I messed around with a couple other orders, still no luck. Thanks for help.

--"I believe in making the world safe for our children. But not for our children's children, because I don't think that children should be having sex." - Jack Handy

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Miguel says on Aug 22, 2006, 20:19:

Here's a clue Using those ALT strokes...make sure your number lock key is on.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 23, 2006, 02:01:

rocinante thanks for the link. Yes, it was nice little chat we had back there.
Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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