Scary news story about kidnapping

utopiacowboy says on Mar 2, 2005, 14:01:

Now for the usual comments that this kind of stuff happens everywhere and Colombia is just as safe as your neighborhood mall.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

miamimike says on Mar 2, 2005, 14:07:

Nice Town Been there-always appeared to be pretty quiet and peaceful-not far from Fusa. Guess you never know. Interesting to know the exact circumstances but we probably never will. My hunch is was with 2 putas and they turned on him for a few bucks. Seems the girls of the night will do anything for a buck or two. But who ever said prostitutes were honorable people to start with. I guess no one is to blame but yourself when you associate with low life and the danger that comes with it.

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 2, 2005, 14:10:

Uh, right You're reading a lot into this, Mike.

Nothing like blaming the victim, though, without a shred of evidence to back it up.

toneloc24 says on Mar 2, 2005, 14:54:

Not so scary, more like stupid! I'm about to get flamed for saying this, but.....some people get what they're asking for. Victims sometimes become victims by their own idiocy.

Of all places to go off this some people you probably just met, Colombia is not the place for those kinds of chances. Colombia is not Ibiza or Ayia Napa or wherever is the hot spot of tourism in Europe nowadays. People are desperate and the country is dangerous. Those are certifiable facts. Shouldn't stop you from going, but use common and alerted sense.

I've gone off with chicas as well, but they weren't calling the shots (i.e. "use this cab; it's my friend", "let's go here - it's safe", "I need to stop at my house to change clothes", etc.). Fuck that!!!

As a result, I have zero problems returning to Colombia and having a good time. I find the people really interesting. In fact, I don't find it very dangerous, but then I'm not putting myself in those kinds of crazy situations either.

This dude left Bogota for some obscure town outside of Bogota with two chicks that he probably didn't know very well. For what??????? What was he thinking?

I have no problem blaming stupid people.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

lpdiver says on Mar 2, 2005, 15:04:

A link To read the article for ourselves would be nice.

T

"cook some rice!"

lpdiver says on Mar 2, 2005, 15:14:

thanks for the link Might need my espousa to get the total translation...jejeje

tony

"cook some rice!"

juanalejo says on Mar 2, 2005, 15:16:

AUC There is a lot to be read into this kidnapping, first of all and this is to those who see things black or white. Nobody in this page has said Colombia is completely safe, but it is not absolutely dangerous for anybody that steps in either. So please stop the ignorant I told you so. Second the AUC have not been involved in economic kidnappings so this either reads as if they need the money, or some factions are moving away from fighting guerrillas and into money making business. That probably derived from the demobilization process. I guess there resides the problem of that policy as trying to convince a bunch of guys to move into society for the sole purpose of peace does not convince those personalities whose main interest in life in just making money. A plan B for them is needed if not many more of these type of cases may arise.

miamimike says on Mar 2, 2005, 15:31:

The Article Not a mention of how the prostitutes fit in. Wondering WHY his wife was not with him to view the Business Offer and the Hotel???

Marzo 2 de 2005
12:00 m.
El DAS capturó a nueve integrantes de una red de secuestradores al servicio de los paramilitares

Se les acusa de haber secuestrado y asesinado al ciudadano italiano Sabino Mobile, un orfebre de 27 años que ingresó en diciembre pasado al país.

Mobile llegó a Colombia junto a su esposa colombiana y sus dos hijos, con el propósito de comprar una casa.

En febrero, se reportó a las autoridades su desaparición cuando disfrutaba de vacaciones en Girardot, Cundinamarca.

Detectives del Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad (DAS) iniciaron las investigaciones que derivaron en la captura de las nueve personas en los últimos tres días, en localidades cercanas a Bogotá.

El director del DAS en el departamento de Cundinamarca, Germán Sandoval, explicó a la AP que al parecer los plagiadores creyeron que Mobile pretendía comprar un hotel en la zona y “por tal motivo procedieron a secuestrarlo�.

Agregó que “pedían un millón de euros� (1,3 millones de dólares) por el rescate.

Como no consiguieron el pago, los secuestradores asesinaron con disparos a Mobile y arrojaron el cadáver al río Magdalena el 26 de febrero, por eso “el cuerpo no ha sido encontrado�, sostuvo Sandoval.

La banda estaba compuesta por tres paramilitares; dos prostitutas que identificaban a posibles blancos de secuestros; un taxista encargado de los desplazamientos; y tres responsables de la vigilancia de un sitio de cautiverio.

Bogotá

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

utopiacowboy says on Mar 2, 2005, 15:34:

You got that right, GIB. In Medellin there are about 7 homicides a day. I defy you to find information about these homicides published in the newspapers like El Colombiano. You just won't find it because it's not news. Even the discovery of cars crammed full of explosives barely makes the newspapers.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 2, 2005, 17:02:

For those who don't know Giradot is to Bogota like the Hamptons are to New York or Palm Springs is to LA. It's where the wealthy go for a change of weather and scenery. Nobody from that scene really hangs out in the town of Giradot. Instead, there are two very fancy, gated communities with golf courses, swimming pools, lakes, trails, etc. Like GIB said, it's a real paradise in many ways.

So it is surprising when someone is kidnapped from there (Except to GIB, who of course, knows it all) and a bit disturbing when the AUC starts kidnapping foreigners, which they don't have a history of doing (except in the books of GIB, who knows everything).

toneloc24 says on Mar 2, 2005, 18:20:

Still got sympathy??? Another version of the same story. Continue to defend him...please do.


BOGOTA, Colombia, March 2 (Reuters) - Colombian kidnappers confessed to abducting and killing an Italian tourist who had boasted about his wealth in a brothel, police said on Wednesday.

Police have arrested nine people in connection with kidnapping Sabino Mobile on Feb. 4 in the town of Girardot, a popular warm-weather weekend destination a few hours' drive from the cool climate of the capital Bogota, Gabriel Sandoval, head of the DAS detective force in Girardot said.

Several of the suspects confessed to killing the 29-year-old jeweler around Feb. 20 and dumping his body in the Magdalena River after realizing he did not have as much money as he had claimed in excursions to bars and a brothel.

Sabino, from Foggia in Italy, arrived in Colombia on Dec. 20 with his Colombian wife and their two children but spent time boasting and throwing money around Girardot red light nightspots.

"He said he had lots of money, that he was going to buy a luxury hotel," Sandoval told Reuters.

His kidnappers kept him for some time on a rural property before disposing of him. His body has not been found.

"They said they killed him because he was becoming a problem for them. They killed him because they realized he didn't have all that money," Sandoval said.Detainees included two local prostitutes and three men.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 2, 2005, 18:54:

I don't get it tone? Are you saying a person deserves to be kidnapped, killed and have their body dumped in a river because he partied in some dodgy places and flashed some dough?

Made some dumb decisions = Deserves to die?

That's pretty harsh. Sounds like the male version of "She was dressed provocatively and deserved what she got."

morten66 says on Mar 2, 2005, 19:57:

Mr.Hollywood and Mr.Gringo In Bogota Mr.Hollywood - Great that you post your views, so do I, but I am sure you will agree with me that it is a shame that some right wing "know it all" like mr.Gringo in Bogota has to post his asshole comments to everyone that actually posts serious topics?

Mr.Hollywood - keep it up and dont mind this creature that obviously has nothing better to do.

All the best to you - M

Morten S

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 3, 2005, 03:08:

"Are you saying a person deserves to be kidnapped, killed and have their body dumped in a river because he partied in some dodgy places and flashed some dough"
Mr Hollywood of course he doesn't deserves to be kidnapped, but anybody with common sense knows that in Colombia is the last thing you do is Boosting or showing off. In Colombia if you have money you have to keep it low everybody knows that. I just wonder If his wife warned him about it of is he just was plain stupid.

DaveS says on Mar 3, 2005, 04:05:

Sorry, but the guy did sort of ask for it No, nobody should be kidnapped just because they are bragging about having money, but come on, you don't do that in Colombia. Tone posted the article stating the man was in a brothel (what a stupid "pretty" word for whorehouse), but I read another article by the AP which stated the guy was in SEVERAL whorehouses and SEVERAL bars telling the whole world he was rich and looking to buy a hotel. He must have had some money as the article stated he was spending a lot.

If he did this in a "red-light" district in a U.S. city or even in his own country of Italy it would arouse the creative side of those less fortunate and could easily end with the same result, just different acronyms for the kidnappers. Why would some idiot do that in Colombia where 20% are "Haves" and 80% are "Have-nots"? It was just a bonehead move that he paid the ultimate price for. I want to know what his Colombian wife was doing while he was out whoring. the article stated he came with his wife and 2 children.

The only thing that caught me off guard about this was the fact the kidnappers were paras, as Girardot isn't really known to have much of those, or FARC, around. The city is somewhat more sheltered from these groups (atleast on the surface) than other places due to having a major army base in between Girardot and Melgar. The army base hosts many American blackhawk helicopters and several American troops (mainly mechanics and SAR personnel) as well.

Someone said it was surprising that this happened in Girardot, why? Girardot is small compared to Bogota, but still has around 130,000 people so it's not Po-dunkville, Kentucky. Shit happens in any 100,000+ city, anywhere in the world (well, except here in Japan, this is truly one safe place). To act the way he did was just stupid. Even acting like that around "proper" folk could tempt some of them into being one-time kidnappers. The "gated communities" are few in Girardot and people still need to get out of the house, so you can't expect to be sheltered. Also, most people living in those communities (besides the weekend-renting visitors) are narcos or corrupt government folks. Not exactly a place I would feel safe just because it's a "gated" community.

A friend of my wife's family is a pretty good all-around fix-it guy with anything mechanical. One year ago he was asked by someone at El Penon to fix their jet-ski. He spent a few hours fixing it and was expecting to get paid, as promised. He went to the door and told the housekeeper (well, not housekeeper, it was a guy who watched the house and who knows what else) he would come back the next day when the owner was home. He was flatly told don't bother coming back. He wouldn't be paid anything and if he made a fuss of it he wouldn't leave El Penon. There's a sizeable lake there, I wonder how many bodies are in it. My point is gated communities aren't any safer than El Centro.

As I've posted before, my wife is from Girardot. She's been home with her folks the past few weeks and I'll be there from the end of March through April (with a week in San Andres). I asked her if she knew of this and she did and said basically the same thing, bonehead move. It doesn't raise any fear of myself going there. I'm not an ass proclaiming all within hearing distance how much money I bring for the local folk to take from me.

The last time I was there, for 1 1/2 months, the following things happened that I knew about, including one I witnessed.

local (well, Melgar) girls were busted for using El Penon (gated community in Girardot) as a brothel. They were servicing local Colombian and U.S. troops and somebody videotaped some sessions. All over the local news. This isn't a murder or anything, just a reminder that it's normal activity just like any other place.

2 taxistas were shot in the head at night, 2 nights in a row.

Some banker's son was almost assassinated (I saw this). The kid was walking by some stores and 2 guys on motorbikes, sporting them little machine guns, rode right down the middle of the street in broad daylight and tried to shoot him. Some lady across the street saw them coming up and she just screamed and EVERYBODY dove in to open doorways, including the kid (and my gringo ass). They didn't miss him by much. My wife later explained to me the gossip was that some bad folks, not FARC or paras, had been pressuring the kid's family for money.

When these things happened, it kind of freaked me out for a couple of days, but then I realized it's no different than any other sizeable city. My wife told me just 2 days ago that lately, in Bogota, taxistas have been getting killed on the night shift. She said 5 were killed in one night. I haven't seen that on any news. Her sister's husband drives a cab in Bogota that my wife's dad bought and he's been doing some night driving, so they're worried about it.

I don't think Colombia is any safer, or more dangerous, than other places, but you do need to do things a little more carefully, more discreet about your activities and finances.

A side issue:

I don't know why some want to dump on gringoinbogota, he often posts real good information. He comes across as knowing what he's talking about. He mentioned the FARC going in Bogota South. I remember reading, either in the news or one of the books I have on Colombia, that there are actually an estimated 4000-6000 FARC members living in South Bogota, which consequently means many paras are there as well. This is logical as most of South Bogota is poverty level. No better place to recruit and propagandize. I notice a lot of discussions here are only about "touristy" things or life in the North of Bogota, which is hardly the real Bogota. Bogota is the rest, 80%, of the city where people have a hard time getting by, even if they're considered middle-class. I very much like real discussions about the "real" Colombian daily life of which GIB often provides.

I don't want to be a hypocrite. I like money and I own a house in La Norte, but have only been there twice as it's just rental property. But I know that neighborhood isn't a true reflection of Bogota. I don't even like going to Unicentro, the place is so out-of-touch. It's funny how seemingly EVERY SINGLE muchacha working in the upscale stores have boob/nose/lipo jobs. It's like a prerequisite for working there. I also do the tourist thing when I go. I've been to Cartagena (wasn't impressed), Santa Marta (much better) and this time it'll be San Andres, which really isn't Colombia anyway. Yes, it's a department of Colombia, but come on. It's almost 500 miles from the Northeast Colombian mainland off the coast of Nicaragua and not far from the "normal" Carribean hotspots. You can't possibly get a real Colombian vibe there. I could learn otherwise in a few weeks.

So I do take advantage of some of the "nicer" things of Colombia, but I always seem to have the best time in a small local bar or just sitting out on my wife's parents' porch watching everybody's daily routine.

toneloc24 says on Mar 3, 2005, 05:16:

Stop with the bleeding heart crap This is not even in the same realm as rape, so don't go there.
He made himself a victim.

No one deserves to be kidnapped, especially randomly. But, you'd be incredibly ignorant to believe the possibility does not exist in Colombia, safe place or not. When people knowingly put themselves in position to experience the "other side" of Colombia, well....why should I have much pity for him? Even less, after reading that he has a family with him there in Giradot.

When people knowingly go into a potentially dangerous place, ignoring all warnings, and start flaunting wealth???? Does that not make him a target for many things negative? This would occur in many cities around the world, not just in Colombia. How many times have dudes gotten drugged and taken for money in Las Vegas alone?

- When a dude takes steroids for whatever the reasons, who's to blame?
- When someone ODs on drugs, who's to blame?
- When a dude gets drugged by a prostitute who then robs him, who's to blame?
- When a gringo goes searching for drugs in the seedier areas of Bogota, he gets robbed, who's to blame?
- When a married dude with kids goes into brothels/whorehouses/puterias, broadcasting his wealth and intentions to buy hotels, etc., and a phone call is made, who's to blame?

I will say this much, I do feel sorry for his widow and children. They deserved better than him.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

toneloc24 says on Mar 3, 2005, 05:30:

FARC in Bogota While I was in Bogota 3 weeks ago, there was an article in El Tiempo announcing the movement of 2,000 soldiers into areas of South Bogota to combat growing FARC-related activities and a supposed increase in FARC-affiliated members.

I forget the name of the barrio specifically mentioned, but my buddy was familiar with it, as a close friend of his was transferred there to work for a month recently.

This wouldn't deter me from going to Colombia or alarming my friends, as more than likely we would not go anywhere near that area. But I'd still be very alert and aware of where I am and who I'm with. I've had nothing but positive experiences in Colombia. I know the possibility for a different experience does exist.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 3, 2005, 06:27:

For GIB GIB, it would be easy to waste a lot of energy engaging someone like you. I’m not willing to do that.

Here’s what I’m going to say, however, and be done with you. You are probably a nice guy. In person, I bet you’re not half the blow-hard that you are online. But to be honest with you, your online manners and persona are insufferable.

You could have easily posted the additional articles including the details about the brothels and the victim flashing money around Giradot without trying to turn the conversation into a tribunal about how everyone else is naïve and/or stupid and you’re not. But instead, almost every conversation for you on this board seems to turn on propping up your self-image, justifying to yourself that you’re cool and the world (or at least the expat community in Colombia) is full of fools and losers. Psychologically, that must be a very lonely place to live. Good luck finding happiness on that path.

miamimike says on Mar 3, 2005, 08:02:

Hey Hollywood--Wasn't Far Off Was I ?? "You're reading a lot into this, Mike.

Nothing like blaming the victim, though, without a shred of evidence to back it up".

Hollywood-after the truth came out-guess I wasn't far off the mark with my earlier thoughts on this matter.As the say'IIf it walks like a duck, talks like a duck, it probably is a duck !! :)

Our enemies are innovative and resourceful, and so are we. They never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we." GW Bush

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 3, 2005, 08:19:

Hindsight is 20-20 I grant you that. You got your duck.

Miguel says on Mar 3, 2005, 09:43:

My take I read the initial post here and then read the different reports in the Colombian press. I then followed the board's comments, and all I can offer is that it's a horrible story on many levels. Perhaps the saddest thing to me is grief being felt by his family. Without wasting your time, I will close in saying this man made the wrong decisions at the wrong time and in the wrong place.
Personally, I would NEVER, on my own volition, put myself in that situation.
If I get kidnapped by the ever increasing number of paras in B/Quilla while walking to Olimpica, I am going to e-mail you for "donations".
If you pray, pray for his family.

ColombianoX says on Mar 3, 2005, 10:04:

"and this time it'll be San Andres, which really isn't Colombia anyway. Yes, it's a department of Colombia, but come on. It's almost 500 miles from the Northeast Colombian mainland off the coast of Nicaragua"

DaveS,

Oh , so then by that logic, Hawaii isn't really part of the USA?


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

carter says on Mar 3, 2005, 10:30:

Don't believe everything the papers says As someone who always defends Colombia saying it is as safe as Peru, Bolivia etc for Tourism I am sad to here this news as tourists have not often been targeted.

I will say this though, before we attack this poor Italian the papers may make it sound like it was his fault and that he was flashing his cash around in a brothel.

This just reminds me of when the foriegners were taken at the lost city and the papers tried to make it sound like it was their fault. the German selling guns, The Spaniard setting it up etc.

For all we know he could have been an innocent taken off the street. The papers here like to blame the individuals (as do many on this site it seems) and not the real reason this happened which is the AUC wanted to kidnap someone and if it wasn't him it would have been someone else.

I will however continue to tell tourists to come here and be careful.

babygirl says on Mar 3, 2005, 11:30:

Nobody deserves to die that way and I think we all know that the media is biased. It makes for a far more interesting story to sell papers if the guy's a dumbass sleaze-ball bragging to hookers about money, blah blah blah, doesn't it?

cheers - babygirl

cheers - babygirl

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 3, 2005, 13:31:

If what the papers says is true then this guy gave too much "papaya"

stevens says on Mar 3, 2005, 17:05:

DaveS Yes, Japan is incredibly safe, if you don't count rape. It's almost never reported. When I lived out in Chiba a gang was arrested when one of their victims finally reported them. She was their 76th victim but the first to report it.
Of course, if the perp is a foreigner the mediaand talking heads will milk it for weeks.

toneloc24 says on Mar 3, 2005, 19:09:

Babygirl, Have you been to many puterias that gringos frequent? Why does the media in this case have to be sensationalizing this story? Some dudes get drunk and then very verbose and braggadocious. Happens here in the USA all the time.

In Colombia, those are the dudes you just move away from. The story does not have to be made up to be quite believable.

If they were sensationalizing it, then why did it take almost 2 weeks for it to hit the news wires? The arrests occurred on Feb. 20th. They only started reporting it on 3/2. Another gringo kidnapped & killed in Colombia makes top news story, no?

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

babygirl says on Mar 4, 2005, 06:39:

Well, I can't say that I've been to any real life ho-houses here or anywhere in the world for that matter, so I don't know what happens in these places. But I do know that when people (both men & women) get drunk they quite often have big mouths and talk to much.

I wasn't trying to imply that it was an entirely made up story but I think that a good writer/reporter has to have a flare for drama especially if they're writing for any main stream media. The horrible fact of the matter is that this guy is dead and we have a news story based on interviews from upstanding people that maybe sold him out? or work in a whore house? We don't know what happened and what was said because we weren't there with this guy.

cheers - babygirl

cheers - babygirl

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 4, 2005, 09:11:

I am going to be impartial here, but can somebody explain me

1)Why a foreigner goes to Giradot on his own to buy a propriety, If that would be my husband I would go with him or somebody of my family because as soon as he open his mouth the price of the propriety would rise the double.
2)If he went to Girardot not to buy anything why did he go on his own. Why he didn’t go with his wife or at least with somebody familiar.
3)And remember there is no smoke without fire.
If he would be my husband I would contact the newspaper to get the record straight I wouldn’t let them to talk about my husband like that if the history wasn't the right one

kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 4, 2005, 09:25:

GIB Well is true what you say we hearing the story from a buNch of criminal, of course they have to defend themselves.
and GIB b careful with brothel! :-O

Lionheart says on Mar 4, 2005, 09:54:

that guy was from Italy? he should have known better, you don't even do that in Italy ... something stinks about the whole story. It sounds like a deal with some not so good parts went bad to me. In Italy you wind up at the bottom of a lake then as well, with concrete buckets on your feet. Or he was just plain stupid.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 4, 2005, 11:09:

"Whorehouse" = a lot of things here Remember that "brothel" in Colombia could be anything from a strip club to a barbershop to a massage parlor. It's a weird world out there.

I don't think anyone should be making rash judgements about the victim's character from a few facts reported in the paper. Whenever I've been close to events reported in the news I'm continually amazed by the sheer amount of innaccuracy and distortion. I'm not even talking about deliberate mistruths, just bad reporting. When you ad in the fact that this story is being retolled through the words of accused criminals, then you really must take it with a grain of salt.

VanMan says on Mar 13, 2005, 00:46:

Colombian life, media, GIB Crap. I posted a 2 page reply.....and it didn't POST!!! ARGH!!!

Basically what I said was:

I have been reading this forum for the past 2 months and have read a few years of posts (boy that's a lot of reading).

1)Media gets things wrong. A local friend 's store in Canada, was robbed. The woman working there told him (he lives next door to it) and he ran out chased the guy (who was still holding the cash till) and kicked the shit outta him and the police came. THe local paper said it was another guy who saw the crime in action and ran down and beat the guy up. He was actually a very small man (compared to my 6"2 friend with 15 years of martials arts) who was just a by stander.

So the man that was killed, he could've been a drug dealer himself. He could've been just trying to do business. Maybe he didn't know those girls were prostitutes. Maybe he did. Who knows. The info comes from criminals and is not credible in my mind.

2) I am sick of the rosy picture people on here paint of Colombia. I really enjoy GIB's extra info. I get most of my info from Colombians (who were very well off, all professionals, doctors/engineers/business managers) who have RAN AWAY to Canada and seeked asylum. Many of their friends/families/relatives have been kidnapped/murdered. One was a neighbour 5 houses down from a friend who lived in NORTH Bogota. I also know some Colombian families that have emigrated recently and were not that well off back home.

3) Colombia is a very dangerous place. No where else are the crime rates that high (I mean Canada/usa/etc) and when I mean crime I am talking mostly of killings/kidnappings. Robberies occur everywhere and the more poor people the more robberies. If that happened here in Canada the government would declare martial law (like they did in Montreal when some lunatics held women hostage in a University in the 70s).

I have never been scared to drive through the highways of Canada (or the U.S.) and I have made many cross country trips by car by myself in CA and the USA.

On the other hand...life must go on no matter how many killings/kidnappings take place. The only thing that gets me is how desensitized some people get to the amount of violent crime (I can't fathom it, but I understand it). I think the country would be even more beautiful and great if the killing/kidnapping was even close to ...Chile's?

I will be visiting Colombia this month and I will be with my friends in Medellin and Bogota all the time, so I will feel safe. Because they would not take me to dangerous places. I stick out like a sore thumb. Will i take stupid risks? No. Will I be scared? Yes. Will I take precautions. Yes.

Is Colombia a beautiful country? Yes. Are the people great? Yes. Are the women beautiful? OH gawd yes. Are there a lot of bad people? Hell yeah. Are the killing and kidnapping rates extremely high? Yes, crazy high. Will it stop me from going? No. Also, before someone says something. The friends I will be with I have known for many years and know their parents/brothers/sisters. These aren't "friends" with quotes. They too are Canadians that are living in Colombia temporarily.

This post seems like I am shitting on Colombia and I am not. I just want people to know the facts from people (not ME!) that have lived there most of their lives and it coincides with what GringoInBogota says.

To any AUC FARC reading this, I am a bum, in every sense:).

platano says on Mar 13, 2005, 01:05:

Robberies do not occur everywhere While I have had things stolen in Colombia I disagree with the claim that robberies occur everywhere and the more poor people the more robberies. I stayed in a houseboat with a Muslim family in Kasmir, India. Lots of poor people there! On the houseboat there were no locks, no locked doors, no locked windows (just openings anyone could come through). People could and did climb through the windows into my room -- for friendly visits. I left my camera on the bed and my stuff in the room while I went out for walks and boat rides. The houseboat owner assured me in the Sunni Islamic culture people don't steal. I had no way to know if that was true but I believed him. Nothing was stolen even though these people were very poor. My experience there suggests poor people are not out to rip you off "everywhere". Far as I know there were no kidnappings or murders either, at least not among the dirt poor community folk. Organized states, political groups (revolutionary or reactionary) and their armies like in Indian and Pakistan and Colombia -- that is a different story.

plátano

dwmte says on Mar 13, 2005, 07:17:

i agree with you platano... i worked for years in the middle east--iran, lebanon, syria and israel--and except for the encounter of periodic assholes, i was never robbed. in fact when some camera equipment got left behind in shiraz...expensive equipment...it was there waiting for me when i came back days later..

a bit different in colombia. i've been robbed so many times it's like a demonstration of the national habit. this, i might point out, was by friends as well as unknowns.

there's a bit of "shit, the president's a thief, why can't i" attitude. and i must confess, after living there as long as i have, that there's some serious truth in that posture. the corruption in colombia is second only, as a country, to the criminality in africa.

dw

babygirl says on Mar 13, 2005, 07:33:

I agree that you can't generalize that just because people are poor that they are criminals. Wouldn't it be ethics & morals and upbringing that determine criminal behaviour? I will say that the only times I've had stuff stolen from me (when travelling) was when I was in Colombia (touristy San Andres, Cartagena, right out of my hotel room even and from "so-called" friends).

cheers - babygirl

cheers - babygirl

ARMacleod says on Mar 13, 2005, 08:08:

Dogs bark, Colombians steal. My novia had the remote control from her television 'appropriated' by a visiting male relative?

I refused to believe this and had her search every inch (25mm) of her apartment, but to no avail. (I was not in Colombia at the time)

The remote was returned two weeks later, I believe the wife of the 'ladron' ordered him to return same. He did not seem to be contrite and simply put it down.

It is now, as if it had not happened? they still visit, what am I supposed to do and how do I react when they visit when I am there?

Various funnies spring to mind at this point, but, I am in a quandary as to how I will react personally as I think there is no lower life scum than a common thief. I cannot say or do anything for fear of upsetting my lady and I have told her that when they enter in future I shall leave, this will also upset her, I cannot simply leave it alone

I suggested to her that when they take their shoes off on entering I should hide them for a couple of weeks? What does one do in this situation?

James.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

dwmte says on Mar 13, 2005, 10:00:

regarding familial ladrones... well, on one occassion, my neighbor stole my sony handy cam. i really couldn't believe it. the p....k didn't need money, this was in poblado, and i just couldn't believe that he'd do it.

i told my brother in law (cunado) and he said, "...we'll have to whack him." "what?" "kill this asshole for a $1,000.00 camera? it aint happening," i said. my cunado said "you have to, otherwise you'll have no respect in the barrio"

"rediculous","i'm not gonna kill somebody over a camera" "Well", carlos said, "you just wait and see, you'll be the laughing stock of poblado."

The point is you can't turn it into the police in colombia, as that's a death warrant. so what do you do? you deal with it yourself.

the neighbor lived in fear for the next two years, because he really didn't know when it was coming. i let it build, he could feel it, i kind of enjoyed it after all.

on another occassion--or two or three-- some of my friends in the llanos ripped me off. on one occassion i told my friend, hey man, if you want something so bad that you're willing to ruin our friendship for it, just ask me, i'll give it to you. he said that he didn't think i'd mind as i had two of them....

dw

VanMan says on Mar 13, 2005, 11:57:

high violent crimes, not robberies is my point Well, ok maybe I wasn't clear, or maybe I tried to make my point across incorrectly. WHat I should say is, robberies occur everywhere. All around the world. But, I still do believe more robberies occur when there are economic downturns in economies and when huge gaps between people exist. It is human nature to "want more". When people give in to temptation (or whatever you wish to call it) they may steal. If you believe people in israel, sudan, etc don't steal, than I applaud your experiences. People in Canada, Japan, USA, etc as far as I know - steal. It happens. I *NEVER* said people are poor automatically stipulates they are robbers. I said, more poor people, usually an increase in robberies.

Now, that was not the point I was trying to emphasize with my post. What I was trying to convey with my message was, that I agree with GIB and many times on here people paint such a rosy picture of Colombia as if it was some disneyland. Colombia has a high high amount of killings/kidnappings and yes robberies. It is a fact. Many people on here refuse to believe it. It doesn't mean one can't live in such a place and not have any incidents happen to them. They may live there for years and never have anything happen to them. But, I'm sure they will hear of incidents happening to friends/acquaintences(sp).

Neonovo says on Mar 14, 2005, 11:01:

During my stay in Bogotá en February.... During my stay in Bogotá en February, my rola lady would demand I let her flag the taxi, because I had no idea which were safe and which weren't.
If I started to approach a stranger for directions or any other information, she'd elbow me in the ribs.

I rest my case.

Paz
Neonovo

Neonovo says on Mar 14, 2005, 11:03:

And, I do enjoy GIB posts...
Paz
Neonovo

daver says on Mar 14, 2005, 13:29:

"What does one do in this situation?"

For stealing a remote control. How about beating them to death with a blunt object... start at the ankles and work your way up.

I've lost remote controls before and wanted to kill innocent people. I HATE changing channels by hand. I would rather them steal the whole TV than just the remote.

Honestly, if that had happened to me, I would not catch myself in their presence, not matter what my wife said. Let them into my apartment...never. Thieves are scum. Not all Colombians steal (I had my wallet returned to me after leaving it behind at a restaurant in Medellin) and the ones that do give the rest a bad name. So, treat them like the scum they are, so maybe they will learn. Or beat them to death if they steal the remote.

Dave

ARMacleod says on Mar 15, 2005, 10:11:

Thanks dave. If you just let me know your adress so that my novia can enlighten you about the folly of going over her head.

Seriously I think I have decided to go and visit the aforesaid before they venture to el casa and have speaks with the perpetrator of the insidious deed..

Or I may just go for your second suggestion and beat the bugger to death. Apparently one is expected to do this.

James.

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.