salary/cost of living

Gator says on Feb 26, 2006, 10:19:

Hope you Have... some supplementary income to help out. Comfortable? If you want to live like a Colombian.

"Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapults habebunt."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 26, 2006, 10:30:

Nothing fancy.... ...just broadband internet and a gym membership.

Have you been to Latin America before? Betcha want hot water, too.

jajaja...

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GregYohn says on Feb 26, 2006, 10:36:

Rent - Cartagena Hey!

Its 25,000 a night with your own bathroom & TV at Casa Vienna. They have cooking facilities there with a refridgerator. So, that comes to about 750,000 a month. You could look for other housing options, once you landed your position and talked with coworkers. http://www.casaviena.com/precios.htm

Greg

Free Calls to Colombia & most of the rest of the world!
http://www.voipstunt.com/en/index.html

12VOIP.com gives free calls to Colombia.Greg

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dilate says on Feb 26, 2006, 10:57:

Yes, actually, I lived in Chile for about six months, and was able to get those two things fairly reasonably. I'm here for information, not snarkyness, if you don't mind.

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litost says on Feb 26, 2006, 11:19:

That's a decent salary, you'll be able to live in a nice neighborhood, go out whenever you want and do some occasional travelling (national). But don't count on being able to save up a whole lot. Ok, so I've heard Cartagena can be more expensive than the rest of Colombia due to its tourism, but still you could live nicely on 2 million if you are true to your statements about living simply and not looking for anything fancy. On basic fixed costs (housing, food, transportation) count on spending between 1.0-1.5 mil depending on your lifestyle, the rest for your spending pleasure.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 26, 2006, 12:17:

It's a little tight, IMHO. You'd probably make more teaching at the American high school.

But it is certainly doable. I'm curious... what are you going to teach?

R/

WLL

Wasteland

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SPECTRASORT says on Feb 26, 2006, 12:37:

Tax Is this before or after Taxes.?.

This will make a difference.

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dilate says on Feb 26, 2006, 12:56:

It would be teaching in the language and social sciences departments--English and literature/philosophy courses.

Taxes is a good question I need to ask. Does anyone know anything about what kind of taxes would I be subject to, especially any particular issues to being a foreigner?

I am a single person, and do live simply, internet and gym being two things I am willing to spend on if it's reasonable, to maintain research, communication, and mental health!

Does anynone know how easy or possible it is to find an arrangement renting a room sharing a house with other people, and what that might cost per month?

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 26, 2006, 13:24:

Language and literature, eh? Well that should be interesting. I hope you'll stay on this forum - I'd like to buy you a beer next time I'm in town and get first hand accounts of what it is like teaching the undergraduates over at the Universidad de Cartagena.

Listen... there is a fine American style gymn in Boca Grande. I'm sure it's reasonable.

Your expectation of broadband internet isn't. That's NOT widely available. The newer condos are going up with lots of copper and fiber optic, but the older ones didn't. You're likely going to have to live with dial up, and it's expensive in Cartagena. Internet Cafe's, on the other hand, are cheap. Roughly $1.50 an hour, and they do have high speed. So it'll depend on your habits...

Sharing a house?

OK - what you need to do is get hooked up with the expat community. Your peers are all working at George Washington.

http://www.cojowa.edu.co/

Write these folks. I don't know if you're male or female, but there are plenty of singles teaching there who might want a roommate or know somebody who does.

I can't help you with cost; I always lived on my boat. I did rent an apartment for awhile in Cartagena's grandest cucurachera, the puta dormitorio known as "La Conquistador." It ran me about $400 a month, and wasn't bad, if you didn't mind the smell of garbage in the halls.

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 26, 2006, 15:04:

Thanks for the advice. It wouldn't be the Universidad de Cartagena, actually, but a smaller one. I'm still exploring the possibility, but am hoping the pieces can fall into place.

As for internet, that might be something I can just use at the university..

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 26, 2006, 15:29:

There is no income tax on a salary of that amount in Colombia. That's about what my wife used to make supervising 90 people in the textile plant.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 26, 2006, 15:32:

I don't know what the market will bear You may be able to get more than 2million if you have a degree, TEFL, prior experience? but I'm not sure.

But on 2 million a month you will do just fine. I don't know what these guys are GETTING ALL BITCHY at you about. Settle down, bunch of old ladies! Jesus Lord Almighty Holy Shit!

My expenses in Bogota were 1.5 million for a month, including half of my gf's bills (she didnt want the money, but i did a mock budget anyway).

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caulfield2 says on Feb 26, 2006, 15:55:

Well, ask yourself how many hours you will be teaching.

You would be making $3,500,000-4,500,000 per month at an American high school, although there are certainly classroom management issues you don´t have with a university.

It´s doable, but I live in Armenia, and I also teach at a university (the going rate here is $500 mil per class per month, which is for 8 hours of teaching per week, or $15-16 mil per hour) and I am spending a lot of money because I travel and eat out and go out 2-3 times per week.

The other thing is that you make a lot more money teaching 16-20 hours in an American high school...you make half that for teaching 24-32 hours of university classes. In fact, the average per hour is lower for full-time than someone teaching just one class, the only benefit is health insurance, which I never even use.

That money would be tight for me in Armenia, I cannot imagine Cartagena, where you pay a lot more for taxis (you won´t get any gringo discount for that) and the Internet is closer to $2.5-3 mil per hour.

I know a lot of people in Bocagrande, and even they have struggled getting high speed internet access...it´s an ongoing process, that´s for sure.

Gym membership, maybe $50-75 mil per month depending on what you´re looking for, you can certainly find cheaper places but nowhere near most of the upper-scale spots. You might want to try Barrio Manga or Piedad la Popa, much more reasonable.

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dilate says on Feb 26, 2006, 21:37:

They described it as 3 courses (one of which I'd be designing new curriculum), "12-16 hours" (I'm assuming this means classroom time?) plus some other duties evaluating students. Does that sound reasonable, for $2,000,000? I'm not sure how much bargaining power I would have given that I'm a fresh college grad without formal teaching experience or certification--just volunteer experience in Chile and the US. Maybe I could get them to pay for my Visa?

I'm honestly not in it for the money so much as the specific position, as well as the non-monetary gains in language and cultural fluency and teaching experience. If it's enough to pay the bills and have a little fun now and then and see some of the country (I travel cheap), I'll consider it worth it for the other gains.

You mentioned taxis--what about buses? I'm assuming that'd be cheaper..do they run just about everywhere?

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caulfield2 says on Feb 27, 2006, 05:10:

As I said before, you can get by on $2,000,000 per month, but you're not going to be able to afford to head out every Friday and Saturday night to Calle del Arsenal or have as much money as you want to spend on a novia or amiga con derechos, lol.

12-16 hours doesn't sound bad at all. Here in Armenia, we make $500 mil per 32 hours (8 hours per week) of class time. The other thing you have to take into consideration is that many of the American high schools (SACs accredited) pay for your apartment or rent, so that's another $350-550 mil per month you save.

After I pay for expenses, such as meal plan, my cell phone (you won't be able to live without that I am afraid), half of health insurance, etc., I usually have about $800 mil to live on. Of course, the foreign teachers get bonuses as well, anywhere from $4,000-15,000 per year in US dollars, that's what makes this whole thing possible for many of us. Some pay every month...twice a year, there are lots of variations. I have DirecTV, which is about $95 mil per month, because I have to get US sports, especially NFL and baseball.

Flying inside Colombia or to other South American cities is very expensive...you can take buses anywhere, but I would not recommend anything further than 6 hours. Most of the time, I choose to fly. Different parts of the country can be dangerous, especially to the south and east, but usually you are okay. Of course, it's the one time that you are not that can be the problem!

As far as Cartegena goes, you are going to have to learn the bus system, routes, schedules. You are going to spend lots of wasted time negotiating (with taxistas), and they will try to get an extra $1-3 mil on every ride as soon as they hear your accent. Buses are buses...you get to experience the life of a "normal" Colombian and not a tourist when you ride them, but it's not always fun or comfortable.

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 05:45:

Not to be snarky... ...but you should NOT assume anything. If it isn't spelled out explicitly, you probably won't get it. 12-16 hours could mean per day in Colombia (check around for some of the horror stories). Also ask about any "hidden" (i.e. required but undisclosed) fees or expenses. The $2,000,000 COP might be "before" expenses. Also, be ready for those "other duties." You might inquire as to the nature of those. 12-hour days are not uncommon for Colombian employees so they might expect the same (or more) from you. Benevolence and generosity aren't common traits among employers in general and especially in education.

I'm not saying this is going to be a bad deal, just that you should not assume anything, other than you'll be doing more work than you expect for less money than you expect. If you plan for that, you'll do fine.

Are they sponsoring your work visa or are you there on a "6-month" contract (coincidentally the maximum stay for a tourist visa, that you'll have to renew every month up to the 180-day limit)? If it's the latter, plan to save some money for that.

Again, I don't know what sort of place you'll be working at, just that I've read some stories where people have been treated rather poorly. You can search this site for many stories of people in similar positions. At the same time, don't discount the "under the table" income opportunities such as private english lessons, assuming your "day job" allows you time for such things.

Either way, enjoy the experience.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:15:

Ditto to Cali and Gib ... ... on getting things in writing.

I had a Colombian friend - a systems guy - who tought a few classes at one of the local "universities" (I use that term lightly.) He never got paid - it was always "next week." He eventually walked away with the institution owing him two months worth of wages...

So - I might work two weeks for that first paycheck. If it didn't show up, whatever the excuse, I'd tell them they'd see me again when they had my money and leave. So you should be sure that you show up with enough cash to take care of yourself if there is some unpleasant surprise.

I'll add that you are getting a range of opinions on 2 million pesos a month; that's not surprising. Again, it's doable, but tight. Remember, that's less than $1000.00... so if you spend $400-$800 on rent... well, you do the math. Some of the Colombians responding to you probably haven't lived independently, and they don't share some of your expectations when it comes to meals and entertainment.

If you eat out, the cheapest you'll get is a platter of corrientes for about $1.75. You'll frequently want better... but that should give you a baseline as to what a month of 3 square meals is going to cost.

A roommate is a great idea. Are you a man, or a woman? I'm assuming 22 or 23, right?

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:21:

I think the work visa is something like $205 or $210 now...but you definitely want to find out before you leave, as it will force you to leave Colombia after 180 days.

If you are sponsored (I paid and then was reimbursed later), you can get one at the Colombian consulate in NYC, DC, Chicago, Miami, Houston, Atlanta, etc.)

Also, find out if they are going to pay for your expenses (meaning plane ticket) to get down there and back. When they take on you as an official sponsor, they have the concomitant responsibility to pay for your transportation to Colombia and back to your home at the end of your contract.

I would ask them to send the contract as an attachment (in Spanish), and have someone translate it for you before you think seriously about coming down here. There are lots of details and nuances to Colombian work contracts that gringos usually do not pick up on, and the numbers usually sound okay until you start breaking everything down and translating it into USD.

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caulfield2 says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:28:

wasteland,

He's going to get hit by a double whammy in Cartagena....double the rents as many places in Colombia, food/entertainment/transportation costs anywhere from 25-100% higher (I am thinking of typical places like Crepes & Waffles or Enoteca, for example), and a salary half of what I live on (in a much cheaper city, Armenia), and God knows what is going to be taken out of it in terms of deductions.

With a roommate, that would definitely save $200-400 mil per month, but he's going to pay more in strato 4-6 for electricity, phone, water, etc.

Bottom line, you can survive...but when you are in Cartagena, it's hard just to get by when there are so many things to do. Unless you want to run a deficit of $500 mil per month, I honestly do not think I could do it.

And that's pretty much ruling out all travelling, with the possible exceptions of Santa Marta, Barranquilla and Las Islas del Rosario.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:32:

GIB is right about the apartment being a pain in the ass, but if Cartagena is anything like Bogota, 600k to 800k is WAY overpaying for Estrato 4. 400k-450k is more on the money, unless you have a HUGE place with more than 1 bathroom etc, marble floors, etc.

My gf pays 400k, Estrato 4, doorman building, not a huge apt but 3 bdrms. Administration included.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 06:47:

Rubiazo... Cartagena is NOT like Bogota.

And no offense, but I don't think your numbers would have been reasonable three years ago. 400K for 3 bedrooms? Not in Manga, Laguito, Casitillo Grande or Boca Grande...

But - no point in us getting in a cat fight over it.

Dilate - you should contact some of those teachers at the school to which I linked you.

The University offering you a position should have some thoughts on housing if they expect to bring you out there. Lastly, there are many agencies renting apartments in Cartagena on the internet; most of these are in the tourist trade looking for weekly rates, but they should at least lead you to somebody offering a long term lease.

Wasteland

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 07:21:

Aren't those areas Estrato 6? Anyways on 2 million a month, I don't think you're gonna be looking at living in a rich area! You would probably need to double that.

I personally would NEVER live in an estrato 5 or 6 neighborhood, unless somebody were picking up the tab for me 100% and even then I'd have reservations about it!

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Me Voy Pa Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 09:19:

buses are great If you dont have a car and know your way to where you're going, the bus is the way to go. and yes, they do run just about everywhere. about the 2,000,000 a month, someone on here wrote "it's enough to live like a colombian." once you learn that, you'll be fine. and hot water is a little more expensive. but where i was (cali) the cold shower felt pretty much always felt good. i'm not sure how the weather is in Cartagena though. also, i wouldnt expect to get any good deals on broadband access.
This could be a great experience for you. Colombia is an amazing country and you have the chance to learn a new way of life and the best spanish in the world. There's always a million reasons not to do something.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 09:41:

Yeah, I find it interesting that so many seem to be pointing out how much more I could make teaching in an American school. I'm not sure why I would come to Colombia if I wanted to just teach and be around Americans. If I come to Colombia, I'd like to enter the culture, to teach and work with Colombians, and yes, "live like a Colombian" as much as possible, or else I might as well stay in America.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 10:14:

Jejejejej Ya, well, if you end up renting a flat next to a brothel out in El Bosque or Pie de la Popa, you might end up adjusting your notion of "as much as possible."

Wasteland

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NewBoy says on Feb 27, 2006, 10:25:

dilate You can easily rent a reasonable 2 bedroom apt for 400-600 pesos in Ctg a month.

The bus info above is good advice.

There is a good broadband service on offer, some info in this thread:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/node/12799

I have the telecom broadband and it works fine most of the time.

When are you planning on moving to Ctg?

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 10:30:

Just like a Colombian ...with broadband, a gym membership, and travel a bit. That might not be uncommon, (though, from my experience it is) but it sounds so, um, so middle-class gringo.

Most Colombians I know that made $2-mil, have only time to go to work and go home (because they only work "half-days," i.e. 12-hrs a day) and traveling means a trip to the mall (if they have any money left over).

Hardly a glamorous life.

But, practically speaking, the school you are planning to work for should be able to provide you with the info you're seeking. If not, and they say you're on your own, you should probably have at least a thousand (USD$1,000) available to tide you over until you see some of their money (assuming they pay you, of course). Late payments are not uncommon (and seem to be the norm, the more people I talk to).

Also, if they say you're on your own, finding all this information, then I'd take that as a big red-flag, and I certainly wouldn't send them any "application fees" or such.

You should be able to talk to some of the current teachers, in fact, they might be looking for a roommate.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 10:59:

Where Newboy? I'd like to know where that can be found myself.

Wasteland

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 11:32:

That's actually a great idea Rent a room from someone, much less paperwork! And if they give you any problems, go to the police and tell them that you were locked out of your apt, and tell them everything in it is yours hahahahaahh!

Wasteland: try metrocuadrado.com I have a feeling that it's your standards that are very high though and maybe not in line with everybody else's on Earth! :P

Personally I'd rather take even the worst public transit in Colombia than have to drive down there! And living next to a whorehouse sounds like a great big time saver to me hahahahahaahahahah!

GIB are you seriously paying more than 600k to live in estrato 4? PM me if you want to!

I can't imagine Cartagena being THAT much more expensive than Bogota.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 11:35:

Actually, metrocuadrado.com is a great idea... ... for our aspiring professor.

So far as my standards? Well, to each his own. I have a hard time seeing a college graduate wanting to live under a fiberglass roof and on a dirt floor out in the industrial section of Cartagena.

Let alone hooking up to the internet there...

But hey! It's a cultural exchange, no doubt about it.

Wasteland

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litost says on Feb 27, 2006, 12:00:

Wastelandlive, sorry but I think you are out of touch with common costs in Colombia, or just have really different standards than most.

A nice room in a good neighborhood should easily be found for around 600,000 with utilities included. Unless you count on eating out at expensive places everyday lunch and dinner, you could have a general food budget of around 400,000. Local transportation, combining buses and ocasional taxis in a small city like Cartagena should be no more than 200,000 a month. And let's say another 300,000 would go to cell phone, personal hygiene, gym... and that's overestimating it. Wouldn't the 500,000 extra be enough to eat out at nice places a couple of times a week, go out on weekends, and take some short trips every 1 or 2 months?

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NewBoy says on Feb 27, 2006, 12:25:

Wastelandlive Laguito, Bocogranda, Old City everywhere in Ctg, if you know your way around.

Also I am not talking about a room, but a 2 bedroom apt.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 12:25:

Well, Crazy4Cali, I *am* a middle-class American, that is my reference point, coming out of college where things like provided internet and gym and such are a given part of daily life. But that's why I'm here, to get a better sense of what I could expect in Colombia, envision what my life might be like if I pursue this position, how I could fit into the social fabric, about which I am trying to better understand. I actually am the kind of person who would rather spend on things like internet and gym which play an important part in my intellectual and mental life, (or use university facilities) but would feel pretty uncomfortable, actually, living or hanging out in really upscale areas/restaurants, etc. One summer I lived as a resident volunteer in a room in the basement of a homeless shelter with a cement floor and simple bed. I've lived in dorm rooms, homestays, cabins, hostels, farm houses in Chile, bottom line that I'm fairly adaptable and just want somewhere simple and safe, ideally perhaps in the same sort of area that my students would be coming from. I think a houseshare would be a nice way to build some relationships with other young people.

Can someone explain this strata system I keep seeing mentioned?

Thanks to all who've offered advice, it's been very helpful to hear your various perspectives.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 12:45:

Well... Maybe. I just checked out metrocuadrado.com myself.

There's a few cheapies there.

Here's one for $280K 2 bedrooms, 2 baths, in Bocagrande.

http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.pragma.m2.servlet.demanda.MostrarInmueble?idInmueble=270-141&MostrarResultadosBusqueda=yes&location=

2 bedrooms 3 bath, $400K

http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.pragma.m2.servlet.demanda.MostrarInmueble?idInmueble=270-1&MostrarResultadosBusqueda=yes&location=

Allright... it's not the average price, but it can be found. I stand corrected.

Looks like I got hit by the gringo tax again... of course I was paying month to month, so it would have been more expensive than a lease. I didn't know about the old metrocuadrado resource in those days either...

Wasteland

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caulfield2 says on Feb 27, 2006, 13:12:

When we say American school, it's a bi-lingual school with at least half the courses taught in English, and it's usually accredited by an organization like SACS (at least some of the better schools). No way here in Armenia as far as Americans, we have ALL Colombians and not one foreigner in a school of 600 plus, K-12. The schools in the bigger cities tend to have a few more foreign students, but the experience is truly COLOMBIAN when you teach down here, no matter if the goal is for every student to go to university or 25% to study in the US or whatever.

Just find out how much of that $2,000,000 per month you can actually put in your pocket.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 16:23:

Now this is too f'ng funny! OK,

So now I'm interested... as part of my real estate investment strategy. After all, if renting is so damn cheap - wow, 280K, 400K a month for 3 bedroom, 2 bath! - then you just KNOW that the market is over priced.

Why, you'd be a damn fool to buy in Cartagena! Just invest the capital in a CD - the interest will MORE than pay the rent, with enough left over to match a reasonable rate of appreciation - kick back and live the good life in CTG without any of the risk or responsibility of ownership!

So I go back to have another look. Guess what guys? Those apartments I found on Metrocuadrado, that confirm YOUR quotes?

Those prices are POR NOCHE.

Oh well.

Just goes to show you dilate... most of the advice you get is worth what you paid for it.

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 17:16:

Rereading this thread, I discovered: I find it interesting that though I never made mention of my gender, race, or sexuality, none of which were relevant, participants in the thread at various points took it upon themselves to assume that I am

-male: "He's going to get hit by a double whammy in Cartagena"
-heterosexual: "as much money as you want to spend on a novia or amiga con derechos.."
-white: "it sounds so, um, so middle-class gringo" (ok, I realize that gringo can just mean American)

I guess "straight white male" is still the default for personhood, eh?

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 17:27:

Not necessarily... My comment was just based on your expressed interest in broadband internet and a gym membership. Two things that a middle-class gringo/a can't seem to live without (not to mention, the iPod, cellphone, and laptop, but those weren't mentioned, so I won't mention it). Also "middle-class" does not equal white. In fact where I live, it doesn't even imply U.S. Citizen. Be careful with your presumptions, there...

Since you brought it up, I'd guess your gender to be female, but, as you said, it doesn't matter...Well, except if you are female, you might have some reservations about the room in the brothel mentioned above.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 17:43:

It is true, I don't know anyone on my college campus who doesn't have at least 2 out of 3 of the ipod, cellphone, and laptop. Just standard these days and have become affordable for many, which I don't think is necessarily a bad thing. Many people around here don't have land line phones anymore, and a lot of professors will tell you to bring your laptop to class, and there's wireless internet just everywhere.
And yeah, I meant just to refer to the gringo part of the phrase. Shouldn't have picked on that anyway ;)
I am female, for the record if anyone cares, but it's interesting, isn't it, the need people have to gender-classify those with whom they are interacting right away? I laughed more than anything to realize look, overnight I somehow became a straight guy.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:21:

Personally, with a handle like "dilate," I kind of was assuming...

Uh oh, I think I hear Tinto coming.

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:27:

It's just the name of the song I had playing at the time I registered. Good one, that is, by Ms. Ani-fucking-Difranco..

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:33:

"Ani-Fucking-Difranco?" Who on earth is that?

I'm so uncool.

I don't even own an Ipod. Nothing left for it but to get me some of those polyester pants and some white golf shoes and call it middle age...

Hey Dilate - OT - you sound like you've done the Latin America thing before. So - how do I put this delicately? - have you considered the impact of this choice on your dating career?

I've spent a lot of time in South America too. Most of that was off on my own doing crazy shit that I wouldn't advise anybody to do... but sometimes I was hanging around the embassies, partying at the Marine house, mixing with the expat crowd.

I've never met a gringa who was happy in South America. Certainly not in Cartagena. I think all three of them were fairly miserable.

Wasteland

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 18:52:

I thought... WRT: "Many people around here don't have land line phones anymore, and a lot of professors will tell you to bring your laptop to class, and there's wireless internet just everywhere."

That's why I thought you had to be a gringo/a. These things just aren't that common in Latin America in general, let alone the schools. I'd bet that the elementary school where my kids go to has more computers than many Latin American Universities.

WRT: Gringas in LatAm, I thought that gringas went to Latin America to get away from the dating crowd. (bad breakup, can'd deal with the 'ex', etc.). Almost all the ones I've run into down there were there to get away from something. They always have some b.s. cover story, but a few minutes of conversation quickly peels that off like old paint.

Ironically, all the men were down there looking for something.

Life's funny that way.

But I've read of other gringas in places like Asia, L.A., etc. having a miserable social life. Those over 30 have practically no social life. Of course that's a purely anectodal observation.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 19:15:

Ya... the old, "I'm getting away from dating" line. That's what I say when I can't get any women to give me the time of day either.

So there you are in some Cali club, and your gringa friend with the unshaven legs and the feminist world view is droning on:

"I want a man who respects me, who is considerate, sensitive, romantic, chivalrous, athletic, professionally successful, well traveled, knows how to cook, writes poetry, loves kids, treats me like a lady, shits $100.00 bills, leaps tall buildings in a single bound ... blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah"

Meanwhile, 3 yards away is some smoking Latina that looks like Selma Hayak. She just wants a man who can pay the rent and won't beat her when he gets drunk.

Do you flip a coin?

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 19:34:

"Have you considered the impact of this choice on your dating career?"
You guys all think it's about you, huh? Since when does me coming to Latin America have to have anything to do with guys? Frankly, I don't plan my life based on imagined dating prospects. If I meet someone along the way, that's great, but certainly not necessary or a motivating factor.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 19:37:

And..if all you're going to be to a woman is to pay her bills and not beat her, or if that's all a woman thinks she can expect, is a pretty sad state of relationships. Do you not agree?

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 19:50:

Jesus effing CHRIST will you all just STEP DOWN on her? Maybe she's moving to Colombia just to get away from people like you guys and your socially retarded attitudes. What the hell does the dating thing have to do with this thread and why the fuck makes you think she wants your asinine opinions on it anyways?

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 19:55:

at GIB I seriously think you overpaid man. I wish you had talked to me, I woulda sent my gf apartment hunting with you. She is currently renting that which you say is impossible, like i just said in my above post. She definitely had to look at a lot of moldy dingy sub-par places to find it, but that's to be expected in any big city. 700k is a typical estrato 5 rent, but it is way on the high end of the spectrum for estrato 4. My friend down there lives way in the north, in Tejares del Norte also estrato 4, doorman, free parking etc, manicured grounds, closed complex. 400k a month, INCLUDING admin.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:06:

To respond to the earlier post, yes I have done the Latin America thing before, and no, I was not miserable! I had a very active social life in Santiago, and had some great times during travels to Argentina and Peru as well. It wasn't too shabby on the dating front, either, as it turned out ;)

I don't understand why assume I must have to be "running away" from something. God forbid, a woman have her own have motives to do something because she wants to, because she thinks she has something to gain or a way to grow! And she's not doing it based on running away from or finding guys! We're not all effin' damsels in distress, yaknow.

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:06:

double post, oops deleted

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:09:

I think she wants you Rubiazo... Maybe she likes the bad boy with a potty mouth.

Personally, I'm with Gib. You're smoking crack. 3 bedroom 2 bath, manicured grounds, garage and security for $175.00 a month?

Maybe. In Bogota. I'd like to find that myself.

Wasteland

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:16:

Oh now Dilate... I assume nothing of the sort.

So don't let Rubiazo's sudden outburst of testoserone give you the wrong idea.

I just want you to know what you are getting into. Cartagena is NOT Santiago... hell, it's not even Bogota.

As I said, I never met a happy gringa there. None of the gringo guys were interested in them. And the Colombians?

Well now... this could REALLY open a whole can of worms on the old PBH site. Suffice it to say that - whatever their reasons - none of those young ladies seemed as interested in dating Colombians as their male colleagues were.

I've NO IDEA why...

Maybe you'd get lucky, and meet Rubiazo? :)

PS - Yep, women pretty much ARE what I think about. I plan to die a perverted old man like my friend wild man Bill. In ten years my posts will be indistinguishable from El Modefoque's.

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:23:

Well, thanks for the concern. It'd only be a matter of months, though, not a permanent relocation.
I'm curious what you're trying to get at about the gringas--?

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:25:

Did anyone say "you?" I don't even know Ms. dilate. I was just talking about the people I ran across. I haven't been to Santiago, so I can't really compare.

Enjoy your growth opportunity.

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:30:

Touchy touchy... Come now Dilate...

It was a gross stereotype. Totally uncalled for. I take it back.

What, your humor detector is on the fritz?

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:32:

No, I was really just curious, it sounded like there was something you wanted to say but weren't, is all--the can of worms thing?

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:39:

Oh hoh! You mean the mysterious reason why few gringas I've known seem to develop relationships with Colombians?

Naw. Actually, I didn't want to say, not tonight, anyways. All part of life's rich pageant!

'Nighty night! Chat with you tomorrow, if you're still around.

BTW - if you post the name of the University - Potitecnica? Rafael Nu~nez? Popular? - I'll be glad to pass it by a couple friends and dig up some dirt, if you're interested.

Wasteland

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dilate says on Feb 27, 2006, 20:45:

hah.

g'nite igualmente~

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 23:48:

How many times do i have to repeat My GF PAYS 400k a month.
For a doorman 3 bedroom.
IN ESTRATO 4 IN BOGOTA!

She actually thinks she's OVERPAYING. :/ And she's not the only one paying something similar. I'm not conjecturing here. I'm talking about a place I was LIVING in down there.

Metrocuadrado really sucks for Cartagena, I didn't know. I can't find anything online but those goddamn expensive quinta rentals, which obviously are not for long term. Those places are super luxurious, and super expensive.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 27, 2006, 23:51:

Cost of living Food is generally anywhere from 1/3 to 1/10 the cost of the US where I was in Bogota. I don't imagine it would be more expensive in CTG.

The estrato system you can do a search on it to read more about it. It stratifies neighborhoods into 6 categories based on assessments from civil engineers taking into account things like infrastructure, amenities, crime risk, etc. The lower the estrato the less you pay for public utilities and taxes etc.

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PennilessBliss says on Feb 28, 2006, 00:16:

Ok, I believe... but where? I hate to butt in on a thread that seems to be running along so nicely, but after being amused for a couple of hours I want to ask a quick one... I'm flying out to Bogota in 2 weeks and have only just begun the apartment search. I mean, I have not properly allocated a percentage of my income or anything like it. Yes, very irresponsible, but I just thought the $500 to 800-K range given by my employer was broad enough to be accurate.

Here's the problem, I've been at it for a couple of hours on Eltiempo.com and metrocuadrado.com and can't seem to find any 2br/1bth apartments for less than 1 million pesos... To all who have mentioned the 400-600k deals... please point them out to me, I might not be looking where I should. Where do I define the estrata in my search?

Thanks!

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Gator says on Feb 28, 2006, 06:24:

Estrato. Water Costs by Estrato in Cartagena (minimum use which if exceeded will cost more). Other costs like taxes and electricity are also charged by estrato.

1 $18.500
2 $26.000
3. $35.000
4. $52.000
5. $107.000
6. $143.500

In the tourist area like BocaGrande prices are up very high and I doubt it you can find something "cheap." Likely you will need to head out past the Castillo de San Felipe/LaPopa. When you try and rent long-term you will find many will demand a cosigner. BTW it is Estrato not Estrada

"Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapults habebunt."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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Wastelandlive says on Feb 28, 2006, 06:48:

I'm with you Penniless I'll be waiting to see this one.

Wasteland

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 28, 2006, 07:20:

Isn't there a difference... Isn't there going to be a difference in price and availablity (not to mention terms) for a tourist (albeit perhaps a long-term one) with no ties to the area and no intention or ability to stay in town and a resident who lives in the town, works in the town, is not going anywhere, etc.

From a landlord's perspective, people in the first category should pay more, not just because they can, but because they are more work for the landlord. Advertising costs are higher, maintenance costs are higher, risk of trouble (e.g. skipping town) is higher, etc. than those in the second category.

For that reason, just because someone's Colombian cousin/amiga/hermana, whatever can find a room or apartment for $200/mo doesn't mean that a foreigner will be able to tap into the same deal without some "inside" (i.e. Colombian) connection. Someone like Ms. Dilate who doesn't seem to have any such connection should probably not count on getting an apartment for the same price as someone who already lives in town. Also, depending on the commute, a cheap apartment in the outskirts of town could end up costing more in the long-run when you factor in the bus/taxi fares.

But, something about all of this still bugs me. Why wouldn't Ms. Dilate be asking these questions of her prospective employer? It would seem to me that if the school us on the "up-and-up" they would have such information available: e.g. Homestays, roommate referrals, apartment finders, etc.

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 07:37:

Oh I will be asking them, and I don't doubt they'd have ideas, I'm just not even at that point yet. I really just wanted to ask for general estimations of living costs on this board for another perspective on getting a better sense of whether I should continue pursuing this job possibility over others.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 28, 2006, 09:37:

Link for penniless http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.m2.servlet.demanda.EstablecerOrdenamiento

Check out the second one on the list. I have been to villas de granada it is right across calle 80 from where my gf lives. It is a decent middle class neighborhood. It's way on the west side of town but you can get downtown within 45 minutes on the Transmilenio.

also further down

http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.pragma.m2.servlet.demanda.MostrarInmueble?idInmueble=59-3196&MostrarResultadosBusqueda=yes&location=%3FirA%3D2%26template%3D%26r%3D0.551698294744145

Villa Luz is a really nice estrato 4 neighborhood. 54 m2 (about 550-560 sq ft) apartment 3 bdrm 1 bath. 450k with administration.

My gf did definitely have the advantage of being able to walk around and look for places, but she found her deal on eltiempo.

Penniless what zone are you looking in? You will get a lot better deals by choosing 'occidente' and 'noroccidente'. Obviously the closer you live to downtown the harder it is to find a good deal, unless you end up living in the Teusaquillo, where you can get gorgeous places for cheap but crime is a problem.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 28, 2006, 09:41:

Here is the link to apts in the north http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.m2.servlet.demanda.MostrarResultados?irA=3&template=&r=0.35462055920294855

I just had to scroll past all the rents in USD and the por noches and the real rents start at 380k :P

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 28, 2006, 09:52:

But... ...are those deals available to foreigners without a cedula, colombian bank account, etc.?

My guess is that not all of what you see in ElTiempo or MetroCuadrado are going to be available to foreigners.

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Rubiazo says on Feb 28, 2006, 10:04:

If you have a work visa... I don't know, it can certainly be a pain in the ass, but no more or less than any other big city. One thing that will be hard is if you want a place for less than a year. I certainly wouldn't accept any tenant in my place in NYC that wouldn't sign less than a year's lease! My philosophy would be to look for the smallest cheapest place you can find but still at least in Estrato 3 or higher.

You can certainly get a room real cheap and in most cases you will be able to go month to month. The usual problems with renting a room apply in Bogota the same way they would here!

Here is Chapinero BTW. This is MUCH more centrally located, and prices are similar, but the places are smaller.

http://www.metrocuadrado.com/servlet/co.com.m2.servlet.demanda.MostrarResultados?irA=3&template=&r=0.35462055920294855

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poco says on Feb 28, 2006, 11:10:

So true Ya, well, if you end up renting a flat next to a brothel out in El Bosque or Pie de la Popa, you might end up adjusting your notion of "as much as possible."



You forgot to mention the “holy roller churches�, “Spanish Music�(Gasolina) played at a volume to satisfy the entire block, roosters and the need for ear plugs.

Culture !!!! Yep,, you might get a chance to learn all the culture you’ll ever need.

Oh,, furniture is cheap, you need a bed (with one of those “jail house� mattresses), plastic dining room table w/chairs, small refrigerator and a makeup mirror, short skirt and high heels, preferabably with the ankle strap. This will allow you blend in while looking at unfurnished rentals.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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PennilessBliss says on Feb 28, 2006, 11:48:

Rubiazo First off, thanks... it's not often you get someone to actually lend a hand with these things. Not to mention going out of your way to locate the pertaining links. Kudos my friend!

Now, how difficult is it to find a reasonably priced "por noche"? If only while I carry out my apartment search, which seems to drag out a bit (judging from the previous posts)

Thanks again,
Dave

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Gator says on Feb 28, 2006, 13:20:

Rubiazo, A Question??

You said the novia's apartment is, 54 m2 (about 550-560 sq ft) apartment 3 bdrm 1 bath. 450k with administration." Just how big are the rooms?

A 10x12 bed room would be 120 sq. ft., say two bedroom that are 10x10 would be another 200 square ft for a total of 320 sq ft for just the bedroom leaving 230 sq ft for the living room, dining area, bath and kitchen. Boy, that's tight living.

Granted, I have seen small apartments in Bogotá but that's usually a one bed room. Here problem, I believe will be the fact that she is not living in Bogotá. As you know once you get out of BocaGrande, Manga, et.al. the quality goes down fast-but then so do the rents.

I agree the best bet might be to look for a room. Too many people want that cosigner.


"Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscripti catapults habebunt."

"Brevior Sltare Cum Deformibus Mulieribus Est Vita!" .

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pedro says on Feb 28, 2006, 13:57:

It's possible You can live on that with the occasional splurge. You can travel a bit too, as long as you take the bus.

The problem would come if you tried to do it long term. For example, a plane ticket back to the USA would be a big stretch on that salary. Family emergency, or a short trip back for your friend's wedding? Difficult to do.

But I think I saw you mention it's only for a short term thing.

Colombian minimum salary is 400k. So with 2 million you should do OK, especially if you rent a room to save on housing expenses.

que nota!

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 13:59:

the rest I don't really care, but "short skirt and high heels"?!
in your dreams. who wants to wear that shit?

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Crazy4Cali says on Feb 28, 2006, 14:23:

Who? WRT: "who wants to wear that shit?"

Las chicas de Colombia. That's who!

My guess is the dress in tropical Colombia is a bit more skimpy than what you might have been used to in Santiago.

Just a hunch.

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 17:40:

I feel for their feet. I personally can't tolerate anything I can't go at least a few miles comfortably in or run if I had to/wanted to.
And it didn't take particularly skimpy clothing to get unwanted harassment from guys in Chile..I can only imagine in beachy-wear..eek.

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poco says on Feb 28, 2006, 18:56:

Almost everyone who wants to wear that shit?

Wear it with the standard bare midriff blouse.

High heels, sometimes spiked high heals are common moto footwear.

Almost no one under 35 wears flats.



Maybe a rural area is different, could be the cities have a different clothing culture? Possibably some elegant frumpy attire suitable for the upwardly mobile?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 19:01:

what's wrong with good ol' sneakers or boots? or even sandals as long as they don't leave you with lacerations after a matter of miles or hours. no need to be all immobilized, teetering on heels, if you ask me. And c'mon, boots are just Hot.

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poco says on Feb 28, 2006, 19:34:

Hot or Not I don't agree with the riding shoes but that is the style for the up and coming young female moto riders.

I don't agree with the normal "hiking" shoes. Likely these shoes will be slightly elevated flats,, at the best.

I've purchased the girl I'm with 4 pairs of "walking sneakers" and still I need to say,, go get your walking shoes. Foot doctors should make a fortune in the coiming years.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 19:41:

I didn't really mean "riding" boots, though I'm not sure what you really meant to indicate by those..true, there's lots of kinds of boots. I have a weakness for all kinds of calf to knee-high boots for going out..or more trudge-worthy ones for walking to campus in the snow, these days! Though I'm assuming that's not an issue in Colombia ;)

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Rubiazo says on Feb 28, 2006, 19:59:

Gator that's about it and to me that's NOT tight living. That's about average size rooms in most big cities, for middle class urban people who can't afford to live where you do!

Dave, I would recommend (if your Spanish is good enough) staying on a hotel off of the 1 de mayo. You can get away with as little as 40k a day there. It's also a fun neighborhood but it's a working class entertainment district, so keep in mind there may be pickpockets and the like working their way through the revelers especially at night. Security in the hotels themselves is great though, and most of them are brand new and gorgeous.

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utopiacowboy says on Feb 28, 2006, 21:06:

They've already got Andrea Echeverri, Dilate. I can tell you're going to fit in great.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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dilate says on Feb 28, 2006, 21:14:

if I go, that is. I don't know anything about this Andrea creature..?

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PennilessBliss says on Feb 28, 2006, 23:22:

Andrea Echeverri You can go ahead and google "Aterciopelados". She is the lead singer for this awesome Colombian pop band.

If you're into that sort of progressive/experimental pop (with some serious latin fusion) you'll find it to be simply great. They're one of the icons that first drew my attention to Colombian culture and art. I mean, nearly 10 years ago, way before Shakira was showing off her moves on MTV. They've recently delved into the electronic trend but the older stuff rocks. Try "la cuchilla".

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dilate says on Mar 1, 2006, 02:33:

Thank ya much, I will have to check it out =)

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