Safety standards are not in Colombia. My toddler could have died

Mariangela says on Jan 20, 2005, 13:31:

Sad but true! In my last trip to Bogota I was reminded of the lack of safety awareness in general. We went to a brand new shopping center in La Colina Campestre on the opening day. The place was still under construction, the elevators were not working, there were metal posts sticking out of the ground, the stairs did not have rails, the parking lot looked like a war zone, and the place was packed with families and little kids.
They had a fashion-show and life music, and used some of that fake smoke for special effects. In a minute, the whole mall was filled with smoke. I thought it was a fire. Nobody alerted the public about this. If it had been a fire, that day would've been tragic.
I was thinking how irresponsible the owners and the authorities were to have opened that place, which was evidently not ready for the public. Safety standards basically don't exist there. That is one of the harsh realities of our beautiful country.
Mariángela

Mariángela

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oldbongo says on Jan 20, 2005, 13:33:

you got a lot to learn, kid..... the reason for the construction qualities that you see
is the colombian building code.......written by the peso.
and adhered to by the peso,...everything is different there.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 20, 2005, 13:45:

Colombia: Live at your own risk This kind of stuff is the flip side of not living in a litigeous society. The reason we have all those safety rails in Europe and the US is because peoplel sue when their child falls into the manhole with the missing cover. Here, they just say, "Why the fuck were you so stupid to let you child fall into a hole and die. Case closed."

The lack of child seats really scares me, too, not to mention seatbelts in the back seats of most cars.

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Lionheart says on Jan 20, 2005, 14:19:

and ... all the OSHA employees are Mexicans and don't like Colombians.
That just the true

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Albatross says on Jan 20, 2005, 14:21:

. I've personally got 20 or 30 Colombian man-hole covers stashed in my basement.

I also collect pot-holes...

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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goosekirk says on Jan 20, 2005, 15:39:

For us geeks... That's not a bug, that's a feature! With the lack of guerrilla activity these days, us gringos have to have something to justify to our friends that we're badass enough to live in such a dangerous country. Some of the sidewalks alone should be enough to qualify for hazardous duty pay.

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william_andrew_channell says on Jan 20, 2005, 15:39:

Survival of the fittest... It's called "Survival of the Fittest" or "Thinning the Herd." One of Darwin's greatest theories. The kids who don't have the mental capacity and/or physical strength to avoid these things die. Therefore they don't grow up to have weakling offspring of their own; and society will become stronger. I for one am a proponent of replacing the sand and padding below the monkey bars with good, hard cement. That way, only the strong survive.

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santiBOG says on Jan 20, 2005, 16:06:

To those complaining about safety standards I say get a life.

Why do the kids in the US all now have little helmets when they ride their bikes? We didn't have helments when we were kids and we were ok. I guess you'll look like a bad parent if your kid ain't wearing a helmet but really, what's the worst that could happen? Statistically how likely is it that the helmet is going to protect the kid's head?

This is all BS. The ones complaining about safety are just used to the exaggerated precautions that parents take in the US.

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gregshav says on Jan 20, 2005, 16:57:

Why do you live in the country? You have a choice, try moving.

As a US citizen, (and I know you are implying you are from England) this is one of the worse things about our country. People constantly crying and complaining about things. NO LLORE MAS!
Lawsuits trying to blame someone else for their ignorance. If you don't like it where you are, then get out.

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Peter (Moderator) says on Jan 20, 2005, 17:11:

Um, Londonmale, you might not have realized this, but you are no longer in western europe. Really, what did you expect? The same country, just a bit warmer?

Poor but snappy

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Lionheart says on Jan 20, 2005, 17:29:

where is Londonmale? from some posts it seems he is still in London, in others he is in Colombia somewhere. He might be in Timbuktu under the name of zagrise as far I know. Writing provocative or insulting posts about Colombia is the same as writing them about the USA or any other country. His rants contain some truths, but they are poorly displayed and go under in the other stuff.

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rfonteno says on Jan 20, 2005, 18:09:

Caution
When you first arrive in Colombia and you are walking the streets in the city there will be 2 things that will appear strange. The first thing is that you will see 3 to 5 people on one motorcycle and number 2, the automobile has the right of way when you are trying to walk across a street and a car is turning in front of you. I learned these things about safety (lack of )in Colombia within a half an hour of my arrival. The railing at the malls do not surprise me. I still love Colombia though.

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BoricuaMorena says on Jan 20, 2005, 18:16:

I agree Right on! I am with you.

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bitt3rvanilla says on Jan 20, 2005, 18:32:

Jesus Christ Londonmale, where the heck are you hanging out? I came back to Bogota from London just 10 days ago and to be honest the only thing i totally despise here is having to drive and find my way with buses on the two lanes...BUSES MUST BE ON THE RIGHT!!!Thats a no brainer, whats the matter with public transport? Otherwise, things are a okay.
Id definitely like to know where is it that you are dude!

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kernow62 says on Jan 20, 2005, 18:33:

Cars have the right of way in the UK too! However the curbs are a bit lower. :-)

By the way bike helmets are used in Bogotá and even reflective vests, neither a bad idea in my opinion. Didn't see too many led reflectors though.

I am an avid cyclist and always wear a helmet, I may be alive because of wearing one. I was being chased by a deer fly (those in Florida will know about these), I was hauling ass through the woods trying to get away and my front tyre hit a log and I was catapulted headlong into a pine tree. It cracked the helmet but my noggin survived. I have also gone off my road bike at close to 50 mph and believe my helmet saved me serious injury then too.

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dwmte says on Jan 21, 2005, 04:01:

londonmale..... i gotta say, that if you're waiting for some public policy or safety apparatus to protect your children, you wont have children for long.

these little ones rely on you. period. take the responsibility for their safety and stop looking for all the issues that can/might endanger them. you're not in europe, or the us or wherever, where safety is more advanced, you're talking about a developing country.

as for safety codes, old gringo, oddly enough, colombia uses the u.s. UBC (uniform building code) hmmmm

about missing man-hole covers, this has been a problem for years. i can remember in the late '80's, reading about it in el colombiano in medellin. the folks steal them to sell for scrap. that's a bloody lot of work for maybe $.50 in scrap. realize that poverty is a driver of illogical reasoning. poor folks try anything to change their circumstances. maybe if we were born in the streets and got our food out of the garbage dumps, begging or stealing, we'ld have a better appreciation of their lot.

in the meantime, mate, keep a responsible eye on your children and don't allocate their safety to others.

dw

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kernow62 says on Jan 21, 2005, 05:07:

Building code? Colombia's buildings are built far better than those in the US. If homes in the US were built like those in Colombia a mere hurricane would have little effect. In Florida you can buy a beautiful home, guess what it is likely to be made of wood stud construction with chipboard exterior, covered in stucco (fancy word for mud), the roof will be covered in flimsy flexible shingles that will blow off in a strong breeze. These homes are built very poorly, nails from nailguns miss their tatget 30% of the time and the operator has no feedback to tell him so.

Have any of you seen how a home in Colombia is built? Even ones in poorer areas are built with cement or brick construction, even inner walls.

The shoddy construction of American homes surprised me, I was used to similar construction to the Colombian style in the UK. The really sad thing is that people will gladly plonk down a couple of hundred thousand for one of these matchstick homes.

Is it just Florida or are most homes in the us built rather cheaply?

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Dan says on Jan 21, 2005, 06:30:

similar "Is it just Florida or are most homes in the us built rather cheaply?"

I think it could be pretty common. Houses are built with wood rather than brick for cost cutting. I noticed in Colombia that many houses even in not so good areas have ceramic tiles on the floors AND Walls. And in some cases, Most of the house is built like that. Even the very small homes, I think is still very pretty and sturdy. If I wanted to put ceramic tiles to cover a small home in the US that it would cost a LOT.

God Bless America!

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Roncita says on Jan 21, 2005, 06:38:

potholes When I first went to Bogota I noticed that there were loads of holes in the pavements where the fire hydrants (?) are. My Colombian novio explained that people steal them to sell off the metal. But I've only noticed this in Bogota - in Medellin, for example, people don't seem to do it.

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Rikito says on Jan 21, 2005, 06:47:

Good grief, take some responsibiltiy I learned a long time ago that 99% of all accidents are preventable. As a parent, you are 100% responsible for your child’s safety and yours. If they get hurt, it is your fault because you did not have sense enough to evaluate the situation and take appropriate action. Stop blaming others, and stop blaming governments or society. That is what well fed Americans and British people do today..."it is always someone else’s fault not mine, oh no!"

If you take your child to a park and it is not safe, do not go there! Or better yet, get some neighbors together and make it safe. Take responsibiltiy for your own safety; take responsiblity for your own life.

Dios mio,

Padre Rikito

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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dwmte says on Jan 21, 2005, 07:12:

padre rikito.... in defense of colombia, i think you go to far to find fault with the u.s. and europe. we're about NOT fault finding. we're about educating and bringing everyone along the road of growth and discovery. si o no?

as for the post by kernow. it's a pity that builders here in the states abuse the guidelines of the UBC. one serious problem of american business practices...not applying morality in their business affairs, rather giving a lot of lip service to morality. i think as one of my teachers pointed out that growth is much more a function of works than words.

in florida, i'm not sure about everywhere, but cement block in central florida, is much more common than wood frame construction. unfortunately, the builders fail to build with morality. more works, guys; less words.

peace, dw

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 07:13:

Safety I do agree that safety should be of primary concern by both parents and government, but if in Colombia our income per capita would was not 10% of what it is in the US or Europe we would have much more money for many other things. Please do not start again an argument of who takes the money, simply the richer the country the more money available for better standards of living. Mr. Londonmale, life is too short to suffer it under your own will, so as it is clear to everybody your life has become miserable in Colombia, well sadly I think decisions have to be made and for your own livelihood, maybe it is better if you simply never come back.

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dwmte says on Jan 21, 2005, 07:15:

my point, padre...... is that there's fault finding enough in every corner of the earth, whether you're in colombia--where i've witnessed plenty--or timbuctu, or paris, or west hell italy, in short, everywhere.

as you pointed out, and in truth, one's safety and the safety of those with whom they are charged is theirs and theirs alone. we can't hold other's responsible.

i liked your idea that if a playground was not safe, get together with others and make it safe. ditto.

peace, dw

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Bruce V. Shrader says on Jan 21, 2005, 07:35:

Man Holes The reason for the open Manholes (in Cali)
is that they are all made out of concrete.
the constant traffic running over them
and causes them to gradually wear out and
fall through.

They don't use metal ones, because the street people
steal them and use them for cook stoves and grills
(or maybe sell them).
(at least thats what I heard. I think they use metal
ones in Bogota. If one is open, in Bogota, it was
probably stolen.

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 08:17:

Building Standards Are you comparing the US building code, with the ancient city of Bam whose buildings dated back over 2000 years? Come on, the US should have a building code which would make houses withstand hurricanes in hurricane prone areas, just like the code dealing with earthquakes. Colombia does require buildings to be earthquake proof, how to enforce that in houses that are made illegally by poor people is another story.

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ColombianoX says on Jan 21, 2005, 08:24:

"I believe Colombia has one of the highest death counts in modern times from an earthquake (but I might be confusing that with a volcano)"

Yes, you're confusing this with the Nevado del Ruiz volcano which erupted in 1985 and destroyed the town of Armero, killing 25,000 people.

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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ColombianoX says on Jan 21, 2005, 08:33:

"In Florida you can buy a beautiful home, guess what it is likely to be made of wood stud construction with chipboard exterior, covered in stucco (fancy word for mud), the roof will be covered in flimsy flexible shingles that will blow off in a strong breeze. These homes are built very poorly....

Have any of you seen how a home in Colombia is built? Even ones in poorer areas are built with cement or brick construction, even inner walls"


Kernow,

You make an good point, here! This is something my family and I have also have noticed. If I punch one of the walls in my home here in Florida, I would most likely make a big hole (and this has happened!), but if I were to punch the wall in any one of my relative's homes in Colombia, I would probably break several bones in my hand.

CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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goosekirk says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:05:

Except... The buildings in Bogota are built with cement and brick, but that's not necessarily a good thing in an earthquake zone. Seeing how all these multistory apartments are built is scary... a major earthquake in Bogota would be an enormous disaster, as there's no way even the new buildings approach modern seismic codes. It's a real shame.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:13:

Bricks Agree about the bricks. I just watched a 12 story building go up in my neighborhood. The actually structural construction techniques seemed sound. They used heaps of rebar reinforced concrete. But then they go and face the entire building with unreinforced brinks. We're talking about millions of bricks. So in a big earthquake, the skies of bogota will be raining billions of bricks. I wouldn't want to be anywhere below one of the countless brick highrises in Bogota during a quake.

Not very smart building code and a real shame, as goosekirk says.

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:14:

goosekirk How do you base your opinion? What is so wrong about the building methods? Colombian sismic codes are quite good, the iron reinforcing and the concrete are both designed for that specific purpose as well as the floating foundations that are used all over the country. I simply do not recall any multistory having structural problems after the many earthquakes the country has been through. Armenia the last strong one, and it was houses not multistory buildings that suffered there, and mostly in old or poor areas.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:17:

I hope you're right, Juanalejo. I'm no expert on structural engineering but just base my comments on what seems like common sense.

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Gomezman5 says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:17:

Building construction in Colombia -- for sure is better than US Honestly, when I am watching the constrction of a building in BOG, I can't help but amazed at the quality of materials that are used.
Almost every structure starts with an inner shell mad of cinder blocks, and then afterwards covered by high quality brick work.
Dry wall is an almost non existanr in Colombia. Almost all internal wall are plastered. It is almost impossible to find a newer structure in the US where the interior walls are made of plaster

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:24:

Mr Hollywood You will always have problems with some material falling in case of an earthquake, it could be steel paneling, or glass or brick or wood, the idea is that the material stays in its place for the most part and that the building itself does not collapse. The John Hancock tower in Boston had to be closed down right after it opened as it was loosing all its glass panelling due to engineering problems and several people were injured at the floor level. Problem fixed now it is not a threat. Same could happen in LA which is in a sismic area, but lets hope the engineers did a good job and in an earthquake there all the buildings will stay in place.

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:29:

Gringo I agree with you there, I have no idea why that specific spot of the Autopista (in front of the portal norte of the Transmilenio) has so many problems with the covers, it has been in the news, I have seen programs about it, yet there is always a different one open every time you drive by.

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 09:36:

Gringo Do not forget the bricks(blocks)are hollow, so if it is something heavy you will have problems. The solution to hanging heavy things is opening a larger hole, filling it with ready mix concrete (HOMECENTER) and puting your bolt or whatever in the fresh mix. A week later it would be almost imposible to pull it out. That is how I hang my hammocks.

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elmodefoque says on Jan 21, 2005, 10:03:

Sometimes I think I’ve have Sometimes I think I’ve become a little too Americanize. . A couple years ago I was walking with family from el Cartagena Hilton, El Laguito toward Boca Grande, nice walk along the sidewalk, but you gotta be very careful cause you could stick your leg in one of those many holes and break it like a twig. I told my nephew, damn, if I brake my freaking leg, I bet I could sue the crap outta this people� he told me ‘are you kidding, if you go up to the judge and blame the building’s owner for breaking your freaking leg, the first thing the judge is going to say “eche marica, porque no miras donde caminas, gran huevon!� or "why don’t you watch where you’re going you asshole!

any colombianita willing to date me, IS UP TO NO GOOD

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Lionheart says on Jan 21, 2005, 12:01:

Anchor bolts, GiB See if you can find anchor bolts or other hollow space fasteners. They are similar to the ceiling bolts for lamps in the USA, those with the spreading wings, but much studier. Which some you can hang a truck from the walls.

Theses anchors fasten either tightly right behind the hole, no additional cement needed, or spread withing the hole itself. PM me and I can send you pictures of German approved fasteners. I am not sure about the US names for them. The German company Fischer is world-wide leader for these fasteners, maybe you can find them using the brand-name.

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spigrimace says on Jan 21, 2005, 12:23:

but there's some cool things as well ok i freak out that there's no fire sprinkler systems and upper floors in walk-ups dont really have a way out except the front door but I guess that's why I have metal louver blinds and stay away from hardwood floors and the such keeping it all brick/ceramic and more fire retardent.

I like that in a bar if someone gets rediculously drunk, falls and gets hurt, it's their fault, they cant sue the bar owner. Halelujah. Look at the Aramark decision last week that cost them 30 million bucks because a drunk NY Giants football fan drove drunk.

And I love in Medellin that one can call the police to report a drunk too drunk to drive and the police will simply give the drunk a ride home AND drive their car or moto home. That's just cooool.

I dont agree with the following but the culture accepts that if a loose dog bites you, its just your tough luck and not the owner's problem.

I like that in general it's more towards being responsible for your own self down there not necessarily responsible for your actions because you cant get blood from a stone if you know what i mean.

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Lionheart says on Jan 21, 2005, 13:12:

dog biting In Colombia you can just kill the dog if it attacks you, and if the owner doesn't like it, kill him too.

Try that in the USA.

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Lionheart says on Jan 21, 2005, 13:14:

GiB - Fischer I just checked the German corporate site of Fischer, they have no offices in Colombia (Brazil and Argentina only) and no importers either. Sounds like a business idea to me. In any case when I move to Colombia, I know one more thing to take along then.

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goosekirk says on Jan 21, 2005, 13:31:

Earthquakes and buildings The multistory buildings I see under construction have plenty of rebar, but not enough concrete. First, you have long, unbuttressed masonry walls - when the ground really moves, these will fail immediately. And like Hollywood points out, the facings on the outside will turn into a hail of bricks - you wouldn't want to be anywhere near these buildings on the outside, especially older ones. I assume on the newer structures they're well intertied and won't easily explode, but I'm just assuming. The interior support columns I see are spindly things - lots of rebar, but they're still thin and brittle, and once they start to snap, the whole building can pancake. They're probably, in general, just fine during a small to medium earthquake, but if (or when) a major quake strikes, it'll likely be devastating.

Even a small to medium earthquake might be pretty bad, though... I've never seen a hot water tank in Colombia that was strapped down, or a bookshelf bolted to the wall, and the wiring and gas lines are far below standards in richer nations. Given a good shake, I'd be concerned about the risk of fire... although here is where the masonry construction turns to an advantage, they can still burn.

The Armenia quake in 1999 was only a 6.2 - this is not that big. The 7.0 in Olympia, Washington (where I lived at the time) in 2001 certainly caused far, far less damage. Obviously geology plays a significant role here, but here's an interesting excerpt from one report:

"In general, many buildings in the central sector of the city of Armenia as well as a significant number in Pereira suffered severe structural damage due to the use of poor quality materials and poor design and construction. Inadequate dimensions of structural elements and lack of confinement by transversal steel in columns and beams facilitated the occurrence of failures due to shear force and, in some cases, caused the total or partial collapse of buildings."

This is exactly what I'm talking about. It's true the government has earthquake codes and doubtless things are *better* than before, but Colombia is not Japan or the US, and offhand, I doubt buildings could be economically built to higher standards. It wouldn't make much sense here. And even if you passed tighter codes, well, I doubt Colombia is worse than, say, Turkey, but still... I wouldn't count on things being built up to code.

Interesting, but not surprising, point from the same analysis:

"On the other hand, local traditional structures constructed by means of an empirical technology termed "bahareque de guadua" (bamboo), which in the last century was known as the "temblorero style" by the first residents of the zone, performed very well in the earthquake (Photos 16 and 17). However, while displaying a local seismic culture, some of these buildings themselves collapsed, or had roofs that collapsed, due to poor maintenance or due to the fact that along the years they were "contaminated" by unreinforced masonry walls in the interior of their facades. As the masonry walls collapsed due to instability, ties and resistance induced the total collapse of the building. Nevertheless, according to the information obtained during the emergency response efforts, these buildings caused the least number of injuries due to their light weight."

Anyway, I personally wouldn't freak out too much about a 5 or 6, but if you start getting up into the 7 or above range, I foresee real widespread devastation here. Masonry buildings are brittle and tend to break when you shake them. Lots of rebar and floating foundations and other things certainly help, but if you compare the masonry construction in an earthquake zone in the US and here, you'll see a significant difference, and it's not what I call reassuring. Again, it's to be expected... you can only do so much with the resources you have, but nobody benefits from fooling ourselves here. If I was going to buy property in Colombia, for example, I'd find the best structural engineer I could to do a thorough analysis first.

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goosekirk says on Jan 21, 2005, 13:38:

Oh yeah... I see things all the time here that would never in a million years be allowed in richer countries with tighter codes. Anyone else seen that new auto dealership on 126 near Unicentro? It's got a central core partially supporting an enormous metal roof, and around the perimeter are these dinky little columns. The outside walls are complete glass curtains. I've never seen anything like it, and the first thing I thought of was, anyone in or near that thing in an earthquake is soooo dead. If the roof doesn't get ya when it slides off that core, the flying shards of glass surely will. It's a really interesting and, frankly, pretty cool design, and I was thrilled to see it... but earthquake-safe? Not even a little.

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ColombianoX says on Jan 21, 2005, 13:52:

"In Colombia you can just kill the dog if it attacks you, and if the owner doesn't like it, kill him too."

Careful Lionheart, some naive reader might come away thinking that murder is legal in Colombia.


ColombianoX

'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

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Lionheart says on Jan 21, 2005, 14:02:

admitted, it was a joke I know from friends in Cali that they killed a dog which attempted to attack their daughter. They didn't kill the owner, who got very upset ... but a few threatening words took care of that. I won't repeat them here, just mention that the friends' family is quite large. That matter was considered as settled.

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kernow62 says on Jan 21, 2005, 15:55:

A couple of quick comments on home construction in the US, I am primarily taliking single family and 2 & 3 story condos. Firstly the condos are almost exclusively constructed in the manner I mentioned, wood frame with chip board. Single family homes as has been pointed out are cement block, however if they have a second story that is wood and chip board construction.

GIB mentioned the wood frame construction that has held up for over 100 years in costal areas. That is true, and a totally different beast altogether. Those homes used seasoned woods, yellow pine and cedar, both very resistant to insect and damp damage, they were also constructed to a very high standard which the homes today aren't. That kind of construction flexes in the wind, many of the homes in the Florida Keys were built by men who built wooden ships which need to flex, and indeed some of them were constructed from the ships. It was probably much the same all along the coast. The poor construction in the US is a fairly recent thing since the 1960s, and is driven by economy, the cheaper the builder can build a home the more profit they make, simple.

I remember as a child living near the coast in Cornwall we would often get hurricane force winds, and occasionally we might close the windows, but that was the extent of the needed preparations.

I probably mentioned this story about an earthquake in Bogotá that happened whilst my wife was but a toddler and her sister was a babe in arms. The family was stirred from their sleep by an earthquake. The proper thing to do is immediately exit the building because it is safer outside. Her father shot out of the house leaving a stunned mother with two screaming kids ... a few moments later much to her mother's relief he ran back in; not to gallantly help evacuate his loved one, no he went back for his slippers!

The falling bricks would make for one hell of mess, the couple of buildings I watched did have wire reinforcements in place every couple of rows.

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dwmte says on Jan 21, 2005, 16:04:

colombiano X..... murder isn't legal in colombia. however, and a big however, what lionheart said is true.

once in poblado viejo, a neighbor stole my sony handy cam and a really great elec. razor.

when i told my brother in law, he just said we'll have to whack him. duh...i'm not gonna kill some one for stealing a frickin camera, a thousand bucks, hardly, i told him.

if you don't, you wont have any respect in the barrio, carlos told me. no difference, i replied, i'm not gonna kill someone over a dumb camera. well, i already knew that you don't casually report someone to the police--for anything--it can, and might, get you dead. it's like a range war. use caution when taking out charges against someone with the police. and, colombiano, if you live or have lived in colombia, you KNOW what i say is true.

the reader has been warned.......

dw

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juanalejo says on Jan 21, 2005, 16:06:

Goosekirk I can not argue with you as I am not an engineer, but just as your example was showing it was the old buildings in the center of both Armenia and Pereira that suffered not the newer buildings in any of the two cities. Do not forget that both those cities central buildings date from early XX century when building codes were not enforced here. Codes began to get enforced during the 1950´s and 1960´s when the growth boom of the Colombian cities began.

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Lionheart says on Jan 21, 2005, 16:27:

our backyards In that aspect, we need to clean up our own backyard first before we judge other backyards. And I know these backyards also exist in the UK and other European nations. I have noticed that self-justice is very common in southern countries in general, also in Southern Europe ... after all, one of the areas is the homeland of the original vendetta. Tempers flare fast, impatience is at large ... a cultural thing we have to respect and hope it cools off over time. But the Jerry Springer shows seem to be the vent for the cooler Northern nations. I can just imagine Colombians watching not just soap operas, but also Jerry Springer and Reality TV. No wonder the respect for gringos = bobos is deteriorating.

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dwmte says on Jan 21, 2005, 17:36:

i recently read a bumper sticker that said..... '.....remember, regeme change starts at home....'

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spigrimace says on Jan 22, 2005, 11:51:

Whack him I'm curious culturaly what happens after you whack him. The barrio respects you and nothing else happens or does a family member of the deceased come back at you so basically you live a life looking over your shoulder?

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