Safety factor not often spelled out. Mor on numbers

Leeroy says on Dec 31, 2007, 08:26:

Very worthwhile points. Nonetheless, to add an extra factor into the equation:

What kind of crime are we talking about? Having your wallet stolen and being shot at are two quite different things.

rocinante says on Dec 31, 2007, 08:44:

I was trying to keep it simple. Every city is different which makes it harder to compare cities in different countries.

For example the Locals in large cities in the US have lots of money - in Colombia the locals are poor. Also in the US the easier targets and foreigners are not as easy to spot as there are so many foreigners in the mix - distracting and more too weed through for the predator to find a worthwhile target.

Also in the US foreigners spread out a bit more and travel in bigger groups compared to the tourists in Colombia who are often alone and all going to the same neighborhood and other "places".

These factors add MORE to the danger of Colombia vs US.

Lets also take into account that the non city areas of Colombia are like the wild west in relationship to the suburbs or outskirts of the US.

Do I have to bring up Narcos and FARC and gangs and....

How about a gutter poor poverty level that by it's own existence breeds a "what have I got to lose" level of desperation? Much less in the US.

I'll say it again, these factors add MORE to the danger of Colombia vs US - however the crime rate numbers for Detroit are higher than Medellin. But again for who?

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

JoeG says on Dec 31, 2007, 08:50:

really good points. I think the key is to not stand out, don't look like a good target and don't look like an easy target.
-take out money from atms where there's a lot of rich targets, like Andino...odds are you'll blend into the rich people noise
- don't take taxis on the street
- when you call for taxis, if you have a gringo name use a spanish name. If the call on the radio is to pickup Frank Johnson, half the crooked taxis in the city are trying to take the call. better to be Juan Pablo Gomez for taxi purposes.
-spend small bills, if you're paying people with 50kpeso notes who are only making 400kpesos per month, you're dando papaya
-wear local clothes, when I first came here in the nineties I was walking around like an american flag with white reeboks, blue jeans and a red polo shirt. I was lucky I never got robbed.

Peter (Moderator) says on Dec 31, 2007, 09:26:

That's why the travel guides (including ours) explain not to wear fancy jewelry etc. If you travel like a backpacker, you're not much of a target.

Poor but snappy

rocinante says on Dec 31, 2007, 09:32:

Yes Peter but unfortunately but no one reads them. They come here and ask questions without reading the guides.

No one bothers the backpackers as they are worthless targets.

The posters new and old on this board are rarely backpackers. Not often do I see posts asking about hostels (BlackSheep rules!).

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

paulr says on Dec 31, 2007, 09:39:

Yeah, some good points. I´ve travelled more than most over the last 4 years to many countries dangerous or not so but i think the best thing to keep in mind is to never see a country how you want to see it, but see it how it actually is and never be complacent, if you are smart enough and street wise enough to sense danger get out as quickly as possible.

It is so easy to become complacent about a place when you are spending most of your time in areas of security and wealth. IN the 4 years of travelling i had virtually no problems at all until i arrived in Cali then i was robbed twice at gunpoint in 3 days, once at 2pm in an internet cafe so no-one can say it will never happen to them no matter now safety conscious they are. If you stick to the basic rules your chances and massively reduced and remember if it does happen to you, don´t be a heroe.

Life is like a ten-speed bicycle. Most of us have gears we never use.

durito says on Dec 31, 2007, 12:47:

"No one bothers the backpackers as they are worthless targets. "

Why?

Backpackers have most certainly been targeted for millionaire cab rides in Bolivia. Most backpackers probably have just as much money available on their ATM cards as any other gringo.

droble77 says on Dec 31, 2007, 12:49:

Yikes, what internet cafe was that? I spend a week in Cali about a year ago, but I almost never ventured outside a certain area when I was alone. If that's you in your pic, you WILL stand out like a sore thumb in Cali, maybe in Bog, they might take you for a "roquero" . . . :0)

roci, as I said in the other thread, when I go out at night, I assume something bad may very well happen to me, so I try to "minimize the damage" beforehand, avoid carrying credit cards, etc.

goin_south says on Dec 31, 2007, 12:54:

Let's see now, X = (M xC) squared (2)/ pie...x 3.14...
in the eyensteinofcrimeincolombia....roci!
You reminding me of the guy on the front cover of "GOOD" MAGAZINE...
who can predict the future-world-outcomes by a very profound formulationario !

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

droble77 says on Dec 31, 2007, 12:55:

Roci you mentioned Detroit which reminded me of an interesting discussion I had with a local in Bogota. He insisted he felt safer in Bog than in Detroit and Philly when he visited those cities. He got robbed in both cities whereas nothing has ever happened to him in Bogota.

Now I won't argue here that Bog is safer than Philly (or Detroit), but it does point out that when people are "out of their element" they're more likely to run into trouble. It's just ironic that this can happen to a Colombian when he comes to the U.S. and everyone tells him (including himself) that his country is so dangerous. . . ;)

hongo_joe says on Dec 31, 2007, 13:08:

I agree with your conclusions - can't compare statistics between US and Colombia and Colombia is more dangerous, but I have to agree with goin_south.

There are lots of other reasons why comparisons are questionable.

Robert Jorge says on Dec 31, 2007, 15:39:

Roci has good points. I do not agree with all of them necessarily, but they are good arguments. For one, the example of: "In one weekend 20 locals get robbed, 20 tourists get robbed." I get the point, I acknowledge that it is just an example / made up statistic, but it is GROSSLY inaccurate. I will stick to the parts of Colombia I know rather well (not much of it). In Villavo, say there are 100 robberies in a weekend. Probably 100% were locals. Definitely not 50/50. OK, so one can argue there aren't any gringos to rob. Fair enough. Then lets say Bogota has 1000 robberies over a weekend. I would bet perhaps 20 of them were gringos. Maybe 20. And as far as being injured or killed as a gringo - we know how often that happens. It makes the freaking news. So that happens about a dozen times a year in a country of 45 million people.

Personally, I can only only speak about places I have been and spent time in. Therefore, I use Miami vs. Bogota as a barometer or scale. As a tourist .... hell, as a local - try walking from Bayside, downtown Miami up 8th St. for 10 blocks at 2am. Then, as a tourist, compare that feeling to walking from Candelaria 10 blocks to centro in Bogota. I would be on my toes in Bogota, but I would genuinely be in fear for my life in Miami.

john_stark says on Dec 31, 2007, 16:03:

"And as far as being injured or killed as a gringo - we know how often that happens. It makes the freaking news. So that happens about a dozen times a year in a country of 45 million people."

I think it happens way more than a dozen times but most of them appear to be set-ups. I think if you're on good terms with those close to you, chances are you'll be all right.

rocinante says on Dec 31, 2007, 16:24:

droble77 "Roci you mentioned Detroit which reminded me of an interesting discussion I had with a local in Bogota. He insisted he felt safer in Bog than in Detroit and Philly when he visited those cities. He got robbed in both cities whereas nothing has ever happened to him in Bogota."

You prove my point to a T. The guy is a local in Bogota - he IS safer in Bog. I am a local in Detroit - I AM safer in Detroit.

My point is that you can't compare Bog to Detroit just on the Crime/Murder rate numbers. Ditto Bog to Miami.

Gringos in Colombia are worthwhile, easy to spot targets whereas in Detroit a tourist blends in better and is often ignored.

I keep typing in equations then erasing ("Each equation... in the book would halve the sales" as told to Stepehen Hawking).

Here's an analogoy that sums up my point on comparing crime rates between a US city and a Colombian City:

1956, in Mississippi, the murder rate is 10%. Are you safer as a black man or as a white man?

This is my point - you need to take the victim and the preds into account - not just the crime rate percentage.

In Colombia as a gringo from the US, Europe, Australia whereever, you are a target.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Robert Jorge says on Dec 31, 2007, 16:45:

Roci, your last sentence, I totally agree with, and a person is naive if they dispute it. But, like many people pointed out, there are many ways to minimize the risk - make the target more camouflaged if you will. #1 is simply dress and mannerisms. #2 is language #3 is attitude and awareness. If you "fit in" with these things, you have substantially lowered your risk as a target.

I remember seeing the Germans and other Europeans who used to come into my store in droves when I lived in Miami. You could spot them a mile away. I always thought to myself, "man, this guy is going to get jacked." Nut hugger, Lary Bird circa 1983 shorts with a "I heart NYC" Tshirt, wallet / man purse being casually displayed and tossed around, and something else I can't put a finger on. Just an arrogance or way of holding themselves that just made them look like a neon sign that read "Rob me please". Easy pickins. And I imagine it isn't much different to a local in Colombia to spot gringos.

rocinante says on Dec 31, 2007, 17:21:

Totally true. Back in Germany that guy walks down the street and no one gives him a second look.

A local told me that here in Med that they can spot gringos just by the way they walk. So even wearing local clothes and looking somewhat passable (Italian looking, not blond hair blue eyes) that they are still somewhat spotable.

I wonder how true that is. When I get out of the sick bed I'll have to take a poll....

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

goin_south says on Dec 31, 2007, 17:32:

#4... rob... stay withor always be with a, or some.... locals.

damn. I hate these freakin threads.
I got one more trip to make to Colombia...necesito.
Never had any problems.
Dont anticipate any this next time.
I always do everything I've ever read here, to minimize the risks.
To those who are wondering... apparently, it works.
Most of the time.

Only one time, did I ever have a moment of 'oh-oh!'
In Medellin, as my novia and I were starting down from the Hotel Park 10, towards Parque Lleras... daytime.. she,... walking ahead of me a bit, in a short tizzy about something... and here were three boys, about 13 years old... each with machetes about 18 inches long on their sides... not rubber knives, jejje...

In the cobwebs of my mind, I thought for a split second... Holy Chit! I'm Chopped Meat!
But....
... looked at them as if to say... SHE WILL EAT YOU ALL ALIVE FOR LUNCH THIS MOMENT! jejjjjje...

no problems.
so... don't panic, just because you see some chit.

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

Robert Jorge says on Dec 31, 2007, 17:33:

I am sure it's true. Maybe it is an inner confidence thing or a feeling that you can't define. Being overconfident and arrogant would be one extreme, and being timid and visibly nervous would be the other.

john_stark says on Dec 31, 2007, 17:35:

That's exactly what my wife said to me. She said it didn't matter what I was wearing or how I looked in appearance. The way I walked and carried myself was a dead giveaway for being a gringo.

Robert Jorge says on Dec 31, 2007, 17:36:

I guess it is safe for me to make fun of Germans a little, since I am one. It has been years since I have been there. Nearly 20. But even when I was a preteen, and I was there visiting my family, I can distinctly remember thinking, "What a bunch of dorks." If you were cool, you would stand out like a sore thumb in Germany.

huskie says on May 6, 2008, 05:56:

Crock of BS Post
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

kalder says on May 6, 2008, 08:29:

No it's not.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

morphus says on May 6, 2008, 09:45:

Obviously NOT a BS post!

"The crime rate in Detroit is slightly higher than that of Medellín"

The main difference is you have to look for trouble in Detroit. In Medellin the trouble finds you.

rjstuff says on May 6, 2008, 10:33:

"The crime rate in Detroit is slightly higher than that of Medellín"
statistics statistics and statistics.
What about reported crimes vs not reported - Many tourists do not report a crime because they can't be there to go to court etc. - this is very true in Costa Rica, Panama and I guess Colombia also.
And, the locals may never report a crime for fear of reprisal - probably more true in Colombia than in USA. So in the end these are just stats - your personal life style and look go a long way in making you a target or help avoid being a target. I am not rich but the guy who sees me arrive in a taxi at a fancy hotel in Cartagena thinks I must be. Whether he takes it into his head to rob me or not is a different matter. I try not to provide an easy target - so far have been lucky. I don't feel too strong either so by nature I try to be unobtrusive. Good Luck to all whether in Medellin or Detroit or where-ever else.

Alma del Norte says on May 6, 2008, 10:34:

I think Huskie is just getting on Roci's case today. She didn't like his response on another post.

morphus says on May 6, 2008, 10:49:

If I did'nt know Roci personally, I would be getting on his case too :)

jonas says on May 6, 2008, 10:57:

"For example the Locals in large cities in the US have lots of money - in Colombia the locals are poor."

Green Go Home!

What I have, I do not want to lose, but Where I am I do not want to stay, but those I love, I do not want to leave, but those I know I no longer want to see, but Where I die, I do not want to go;I want to stay where I have never been

Rubito says on May 6, 2008, 14:51:

It's actually a lot more complex than that though.

I'm OBVIOUSLY not from Colombia and there will never be any hiding it because I'm twice the size of the average Colombian. But It's highly unlikely that I'm ever going to get mugged down there because my appearance tends to scare potential robbers away. Once when my wife who was still my gf at the time was running ahead of me to get home along a dark street a guy on a bicycle flashed a razor blade at her, but when I started catching up to her he took one look at me and took off. Even here in NYC I never have to worry even in situations where most others do.

The best thing you can do to make yourself safer in Colombia is to totally familiarize yourself with the local language, customs, flora and fauna and really become part of where you are as much as possible. Of course, as a tourist you just don't have the time to do this, so extra caution is needed.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

rocinante says on May 6, 2008, 15:30:

"The main difference is you have to look for trouble in Detroit. In Medellin the trouble finds you" -Morphus

Very true if you are talking about crime against tourists vs. crimes against locals - which is the point of my entire post. You can't compare crime rate percentages between two cities and use that as the ONLY bottom line.

A tourist walking on every street throught the whole entire city of Medellín (used in the statistic) will have a crime commited against him X amt of times.

A tourist wlaking on every street throught the whole entire city of Detroit (used in the statistic) will have a crime commited against him X-Y amt of times.

Far less when comparing crimes against tourists although the crime rates per capita are similar. My only point when comparing crime rates.

Jonas I'm sorry you got confused by "For example the Locals in large cities in the US have lots of money - in Colombia the locals are poor".

I don't think I'm mistaken with the average local on the street in Colombia being poorer and a less worthy target than the average local on the street in a US city.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

Rubito says on May 6, 2008, 21:45:

In Detroit it certainly matters a lot less if you're a tourist. Hell has there ever even BEEN a tourist in Detroit?

Of course, based on personal experience, the BAD part of being in Detroit is that no matter how well established you are there you never get any safer :P Here in NYC you stand a much higher chance of getting into trouble if you are in an area where you don't know them and they don't know you, but if you're in your own neighborhood that gives you a pretty big safety net.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Saltador says on May 7, 2008, 07:45:

I agree with some of Rocinante's points, but also think you have to look at which barrio you're in to know what are the true odds of being a crime victim. It's like the Robert Jorge example of Miami. Chicago is the same. 20 people a night are murdered in Chicago. But is it dangerous to walk around in Chicago at night? Not in 95% of it. But in that 5%, yea, you're ass is toast. Caracas is the same, 50 people a night are killed. But 45 of them are drug related murders among gang bangers. Stay out of those areas and your chances of staying un-victimized increase greatly. Cartagena in my opinion in the tourist areas is very safe, even in the wee hours of the morning.
But we all need to be aware that we are in an impoverished country where sometimes people are desperate for money. Keep your street sense with you at all times and don't dar papaya.
And I like the guys who say "Well, I walked in _________ barrio at 2 in the morning and I never felt in danger". That might be because you're a dumbass and didn't know how risky it was, or you beat the odds that particular night. Be careful out there.

Rubito says on May 7, 2008, 07:54:

I've heard the exact opposite about Caracas actually, that the safest area in blazing noonday light is not safe.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Tinto (Moderator) says on May 7, 2008, 08:27:

Chicago has about two homicides a day, not 20.