Rios Dead! Adios FARC

lpdiver says on Mar 8, 2008, 02:24:

So does a severed hand equate death? Seems there might should be more evidence.

t

"cook some rice!"

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 04:16:

you're joking right? you think maybe they severed his hand, and he survived, and then they were allowed to just walk away...

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 04:19:

anyway, you have to think the remaining 5 guys are thinking twice right about now : )

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divingdave911 says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:13:

Hey, I just reported what was printed. Why send a hand to show proof of death? Makes me wish for the good ole days when only a severed head would do :)

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jaramillo says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:24:

This is the hand of peace we like to see.

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robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 07:51:

They already found his body.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:14:

Let's give him a hand!

'what does it mean, when one of you (colombians) tell another: YOU WERE NOT/ARE NOT. 'COLOMBIAN ENOUGH'?? jejeje..a mixture, I think, of stupidity mixed with a false sense of arrogance.. How 'colombian' do you have to be? to be 'colombian enough

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gringoloid says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:20:

it was his right hand...............Rios wanted to prove he was a consistent left-winger.

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Man Tequila says on Mar 8, 2008, 08:49:

When you're no longer the right hand man everyone knows it.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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gringoloid says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:01:

do they have 'second hand' shops in rebel held territory?

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:05:

You have to hand it to the army.

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:13:

........

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:19:

yes, but victory has almost been handed to them. On the other hand, you might be right.

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:24:

.......

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Man Tequila says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:33:

Was it the na'palm that gave the army the upper hand? Or use of palm pilots?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 09:38:

...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:03:

well, now he's free; hands no longer are tied

'what does it mean, when one of you (colombians) tell another: YOU WERE NOT/ARE NOT. 'COLOMBIAN ENOUGH'?? jejeje..a mixture, I think, of stupidity mixed with a false sense of arrogance.. How 'colombian' do you have to be? to be 'colombian enough

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:12:

I gotta hand it to you guys, you can pun with the best of them

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 10:14:

divingdave I was replying to lpdiver (same person?) who questioned whether the severed hand was proof of death.

Well no, not exactly, but realistically?

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divingdave911 says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:02:

Different people, but I think we are both divers obviously. FARC has done enough to this beautiful country already. Time for law and order to regain its presence throughout the country and for all Colombians to come together for the common cause - their own well being and that of their country.

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:25:

On the one hand, i'm happy Rios is dead, but on the other hand, i'm even happier.

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:27:

and now let's hand this thread back to the jokers

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podborski says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:28:

you guys are coming up with puns hand over fist, very impressive

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:29:

what I have to say is.. the more the merrier jijij

engage brain before opening mouth

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Lowell says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:38:

Is it that the right hand doesn't know what the left hand is doing or the opposite?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:38:

Pod, you are just handing out compliments left and right, aren't you?

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goin_south says on Mar 8, 2008, 12:59:

as for me, I think Colombia was the 'winner' yesterday,....HANDS DOWN.

'what does it mean, when one of you (colombians) tell another: YOU WERE NOT/ARE NOT. 'COLOMBIAN ENOUGH'?? jejeje..a mixture, I think, of stupidity mixed with a false sense of arrogance.. How 'colombian' do you have to be? to be 'colombian enough

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 14:26:

Is that the Rwanda where the cowardly french evacuated their troops when things got hot and allowed the murder 800,000 innocent people? That Rwanda?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 8, 2008, 14:35:

It was actually the UN, Billy.

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DodgerDogs says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:05:

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:21:

billyb says on

...." Is that the Rwanda where the cowardly french evacuated their troops when things got hot and allowed the murder 800,000 innocent people? That Rwanda?.."


The French went there........very quickly. The US, on the other hand......

"the United States did much more than fail to send troops. It led a successful effort to remove most of the UN peacekeepers who were already in Rwanda. It aggressively worked to block the subsequent authorization of UN reinforcements. It refused to use its technology to jam radio broadcasts that were a crucial instrument in the coordination and perpetuation of the genocide. And even as, on average, 8,000 Rwandans were being butchered each day, U.S. officials shunned the term "genocide," for fear of being obliged to act. The United States in fact did virtually nothing "to try to limit what occurred."

The above is from an article by Samantha Power........who won a Pulitzer Prize for her writing on Rwanda.........she is considered the number 1 expert on the subject. She also made headlines this week.

.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:23:

lol...........I've been scratching at my computer screen trying to get rid of that damn bug........

F**kin good one........

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:30:

Billy et al,
you guys make me sick.
The guy was a guerrilla, yet he was a human being too. I think this making fun of him at death is not only macabre, it's in poor taste.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:34:

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:36:

Desi......Yes I must agree............and I was part of making fun of this.........it really is in poor taste..............to say the least..

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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DodgerDogs says on Mar 8, 2008, 15:39:

Bugy, Thanx for the edit, I edited mine also.
The only death I support is the Death penailty for killers, but I dont poke fun at it.

RAAAY , Stay out of them lower estrato barrios,because you getting malo costumbres.. and stealing my paste it things.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 16:11:

...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 16:38:

...

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 16:40:

Edited my two comments on this thread...
I'd just like to see you furious one day, Desi... :)

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 8, 2008, 16:46:

Well, you failed.
You only saw me slightly irritated and moderately disappointed.

But, thanks. ;)

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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RAAAY says on Mar 8, 2008, 16:51:

Desi..........just so you know.............it was all Robi's fault..............Is there some way he can be prevented from posting here.........please limit his drivel to the Bolovian section.

I see he has been posting there anyway.


.

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 8, 2008, 17:22:

I must be terrible and God forgive me, BUT, I laugh so hard I think my neighbors are worried, I was howling, sorry. ( you guys are very creative! and macabre!) I don`t have any respect for a head guerrillero de at #%$&.

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 20:57:

I notice that a bunch of you retracted your comments. I stand by everything is say. Do you bleeding hearts think that Rios regreted one single life he exterminated? Or that he felt one ounce of regret for anybody he kidnapped and chained by hte neck to a tree in the jungle? I think a bullet to his forehead was too kind.

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 21:01:

RAAYY, Clinton shamed himself and the US when he didn't go into Rwanda and try to save those poor people and that is a black mark on the US forever, but to his credit, he did apologize for that. The euros who had the responsability for that area and put their tails between their legs and ran away, never did.

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DodgerDogs says on Mar 8, 2008, 21:12:

billyb,
Stay cool better days are coming..

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 21:12:

"Billy et al,
you guys make me sick.
The guy was a guerrilla, yet he was a human being too. I think this making fun of him at death is not only macabre, it's in poor taste"

Desi, you have a very low standard on what constitutes a "human being". it would be more accurate just labeling him a homosapiens, but a human being? What qualified him for that distinction? Even his own men tired of his bloodthirstyness.

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robi666 says on Mar 8, 2008, 21:39:

I retracted my comment because Desi was feeling bad for it, not for the soab.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 21:41:

DD, i never question your motives, we disagree, but we both know how each other feels about Colombia. Although i appreciate you getting my back, it is not neccesary to do it with buggy, but thanks anyways ;)

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 22:13:

eltiempo.com / justicia


Por estrategia de pago de recompensas ha aumentado la entrega de información sobre jefes de las Farc

Por 'Iván Ríos' muerto a manos de su lugarteniente, las autoridades ofrecían 5.000 millones de pesos. No es claro, sin embargo, si 'Rojas' recibirá el dinero.

El año pasado fueron casi 100 mandos los que se entregaron cansados de la guerra, pero también tentados por las millonarias recompensas.

Y ahora, la muerte de 'Ríos', nada menos que por una traición, obliga de nuevo a las Farc, en menos de una semana, a definir un reemplazo en el Secretariado.

Se desconoce quién será el relevo de quien era el más joven entre los siete altos mandos del grupo armado, pues si bien en la línea de sucesión aparece 'Mauricio', 'El Médico', este, como lo informó EL TIEMPO hace tres semanas, habría muerto en un bombardeo a su campamento en la región del Guayabero, en Uribe (Meta).
Aún se está a la espera de las pruebas de ADN que confirmen su identidad.

Esto supondría que el cupo de 'Ríos' en el Secretariado sería para uno de los tres que siguen en la línea de mando: Jorge Torres Victoria, alias 'Pablo Catatumbo'; José Benito Cabrera, alias 'Fabián Ramírez', y Jesús Emilio Carvajalino, alias 'Andrés París'.

'Catatumbo' y 'París' son considerados del ala política, mientras 'Ramírez' proviene del grupo de los 'guerreros'.

No obstante, fue negociador durante el Caguán y nombrado vocero para el intercambio humanitario. 'Ramírez' ha sido, además, uno de los jefes guerrilleros más metidos en el negocio de la coca.

Hoy las Farc tienen un problema adicional: su nombre ha sido usado en dos operaciones encubiertas de la DEA que han servido para capturar a dos de las cabezas del tráfico mundial de armamento: el ruso Víctor Bout, el jueves; y Monzer Al Kassar, en junio pasado. Hacer negocios con esa guerrilla se está convirtiendo pues en un riesgo que muchos evaluarán.

Ya son siete los jefes 'fuera de combate'

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 22:39:

Those of you who advocate for the FARC, make excuses for the FARC, or mourn dead terrorists, might not want to read the following.

guerra
La grieta de las Farc
La manera como murió Iván Ríos mostraría que la guerrilla se está quebrando moralmente. Es el segundo del Secretariado que cae en una semana y en toda la historia de la guerrilla.
Fecha: 03/08/2008 -1349
Las fuerzas militares sabían que Iván Ríos caería pronto. Estaba cercado, sin comida, casi desesperado. Lo que no esperaban era que su propio jefe de seguridad lo matara mientras dormía, le cortara una mano y se presentara con ella ante el Ejército tres días después. Menos aún podían imaginar que su muerte ocurriría la misma semana en la que Raúl Reyes había sido bombardeado en su campamento de Ecuador.

Y para la historia del país, lo ocurrido raya con lo increíble: tras más de 40 años de fracasos en la persecución a la cúpula de la guerrilla, se necesitaron tan solo seis días para que en operaciones distintas cayeran dos de los siete miembros del Secretariado.

Iván Ríos era el miembro más joven del Secretariado de las Farc. Era muy importante por su capacidad política y porque en el campo militar también era considerado uno de los más audaces (ver recuadro). Siempre había estado bajo la influencia de Alfonso Cano e Iván Márquez, que son considerados el ala más política, pero también más ortodoxa de las Farc. Desde hace dos años se había hecho cargo de la zona del Eje Cafetero, Chocó y Antioquia, donde la guerrilla había tenido dificultades por la arremetida paramilitar.

Iván el terrible
Los inamovibles de las Farc
Durante los diálogos del Caguán Iván Ríos actuó como uno de los voceros de las Farc. En la mesa junto a Raúl Reyes, Joaquín Gómez y Fabián Ramírez El Ejército recibió la mano de Iván Ríos que estaba conservada en frío en una nevera de icopor. La Fiscalía confirmó que las huellas correspondían al jefe guerrillero *Rojas* era el jefe de seguridad de Iván Ríos. Lo mató mientras dormía y le cortó la mano para entregarla como prueba de lo que había hecho
PUBLICIDAD
El Ejército tenía información de que Ríos se movía entre varios departamentos, permanecía la mayor parte del tiempo en los límites de Antioquia y Caldas, en concreto entre los municipios de Salamina, Aguadas y Pensilvania. Incluso, hace dos años, cuando fue capturado en esa zona un guerrillero urbano apodado 'Mateo', que se hizo famoso porque era parte de la junta directiva de las Empresas Públicas de Medellín, ya se sabía de la presencia de Ríos allí. Desde entonces, se hicieron varias campañas militares para dar con él. De hecho, tanto el frente 47 como la Columna Jacobo Arenas, que protegían al jefe guerrillero, estaban seriamente golpeados. Varios mandos medios habían muerto en los últimos meses, otros habían desertado y algunos de los más importantes apoyos políticos de la guerrilla en la zona habían sido capturados y judicializados.

Sin embargo, la fe de los militares estaba puesta en una operación que comenzó a mediados de febrero y cuyo objetivo era llegar hasta Ríos. ¿Por qué esta vez estaban seguros de lograrlo?

Porque en esta ocasión se pondría en práctica el sistema de inteligencia que desde hace meses está impulsando el Ministerio de Defensa y que coloquialmente se llama las 'burbujas'. Cada uno de los miembros del Secretariado se convirtió en un blanco y de cada uno se encarga una sola agencia de inteligencia del gobierno, la que tenga la información más sólida, y a ella las demás le entregan toda la información que tengan sobre ese blanco específico. En el caso de Raúl Reyes, por ejemplo, era la Policía la entidad que coordinaba el trabajo de inteligencia. En el caso de Ríos, durante mucho tiempo fue el DAS y, últimamente, el Ejército.

Entonces varios batallones de la VIII Brigada tendieron hace un mes un cerco sobre la zona donde sabían que estaba Ríos. Restringieron el paso de alimentos y se inició un trabajo minucioso de inteligencia sobre el terreno. El cerco se fue estrechando sobre el cañón del río Arma y a medida que se apretaba el cerco, crecían las deserciones.

'Rojas', un guerrillero que llevaba cerca de 15 años en las Farc, que había sido herido en combates con el Ejército, y cuya lealtad con los jefes del Secretariado estaba más que probada, empezó a sentir que perdía la moral que siempre lo había acompañado en la guerra. Era el hombre de confianza de Ríos. De hecho, era su jefe de seguridad y el hombre que por radio se comunicaba con el resto del frente 47, que estaba en la zona.

Quedan preguntas

Aún no se sabe muy bien qué estaba pasando en el campamento de los guerrilleros en estos días. Lo único que 'Rojas' ha dicho, según las autoridades, es que la muerte de Raúl Reyes, en un bombardeo sobre su campamento en Ecuador, lo quebró tanto sicológicamente, que el martes pasado decidió matar a su jefe, Iván Ríos, y entregarse al Ejército.

Lo que los militares han informado es que el jueves en la noche llegó hasta un puesto militar, con un fusil al hombro y dos pistolas al cinto, con un computador portátil, un pasaporte y con la mano derecha de Iván Ríos como prueba de que le había dado muerte.

Quedan por responder algunos interrogantes de cómo y por qué lo hizo. Por ejemplo: ¿Son suficientes tres semanas de presión militar para que se quiebre de tal manera un guerrillero de 15 años de militancia en las Farc? ¿Cómo disparó su arma sin que el Ejército lo detectara? ¿Por qué si estaba cercado, se tomó dos días en acercarse a las tropas? ¿Qué pasó con los otros guerrilleros que estaban en el campamento? ¿Por qué o para qué decide cortarle la mano a su jefe? ¿Por qué considera que tiene que llevar esa prueba?

El viernes al medio día, por insólita que pareciera la historia, el general Mario Montoya se la contó al ministro de Defensa, Juan Manuel Santos. Antes de darla a conocer a la prensa, se esperó a que el CTI de la Fiscalía tomara las huellas de la mano y confirmara que efectivamente se trataba de Ríos. Mientras tanto, 'Rojas' viajaba con el Ejército al lugar donde había dejado el cuerpo.

Punto de inflexión

Con la muerte de Raúl Reyes se rompió el mito de que las Farc eran invencibles. Ahora, con la muerte de Iván Ríos, muchos se atreven a decir que ha llegado un punto de quiebre de la guerra. Hace tres años el profesor Eduardo Pizarro había pronosticado en su libro Una democracia asediada, que el punto de inflexión llegaría por la superioridad de las Fuerzas Militares y, sobre todo, por los errores políticos de las Farc y su tendencia a criminalizarse. Al parecer, no se equivocó.

La guerrilla pregonaba hasta hace poco tiempo que a pesar de la ofensiva militar del gobierno y de los miles de millones que se invierten en ella, su estructura estaba intacta. Pero los últimos meses eso ha cambiado. Las Farc están mucho más debilitadas de lo que ellas mismas piensan. Hace por lo menos 10 meses ha empezado a quedar claro que uno de los problemas más graves que enfrentan las Farc es el de comando y control.

Las fracturas internas, como la que posiblemente ocasionó la muerte de los 11 diputados del Valle; deserciones de mandos medios y masivas, como las que han ocurrido en Vichada; la sensación de que están infiltrados o permanentemente monitoreados, como ha ocurrido en los golpes a sus principales jefes; los errores garrafales que les han costado caro, como la pérdida de Emmanuel y de las pruebas de vida de �ngrid y los demás secuestrados, muestran ya no a una organización monolítica, sino caótica y fracturada.

Pero de todos estos hechos, el más significativo es que un hombre del Secretariado sea asesinado por uno de sus propios guerrilleros. Porque demuestra ya no sólo una fractura en el comando y en el control que tienen los jefes sobre sus propias tropas, sino que adentro se ha perdido el horizonte de la victoria. Y ese es siempre el principio del fin de una organización armada.

Si las Farc han sobrevivido durante cuatro décadas no es por el dinero, sino por el mito que encarna 'Tirofijo'. Manuel Marulanda encarna la leyenda de que las Farc son invencibles. Varias generaciones de guerrilleros han crecido a su lado convencidas de que los gobiernos pasan, pero las Farc siguen. De que los golpes nunca llegaban al corazón. De que cada vez que eran atacados, podían volver a replegarse y sobrevivir. Y esa sensación de invulnerabilidad se convirtió en la principal fortaleza de esta guerrilla.

Si en el transcurso de los próximos días se ratifica la manera como se produjo el asesinato de Ríos, habría que hablar de una herida en la siquis de las Farc. Y este es el tipo de heridas del que es difícil recuperarse. Después de un episodio como éste, suelen venir purgas internas, mayor desconfianza, inconformismo y, como en todo

círculo vicioso, más deserciones, nuevas traiciones y un mayor debilitamiento. En la guerra, la victoria consiste en quebrar la voluntad de lucha del enemigo. El momento de ese quiebre parece haber llegado en las Farc.

¿Está cerca el fin de la guerra? Es difícil saberlo. Lo deseable es que la actual correlación de fuerzas conduzca a un escenario de negociación que termine en un pacto de paz. Pero también existe la posibilidad de que el conflicto arrecie más en un intento de las Farc por mostrarse fuertes. A pesar de que su violencia no sea sino otra prueba de debilidad.



Votos: 1

Juan Sebastian
Ese dinero lo deben pagar, bien merecido que esta. Acaso iba a poder escaparse con vida de semejante criminal?, hizo lo que tenia que hacer para poder sobrevivir, y todos sabemos que las farc miente y vuelven a mentir, necesitaba verdaderamente mostrar que ya no existia, por algo necesito llevar la evidencia. Votos: 1

Jose Antonio Mendoza

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billyb says on Mar 8, 2008, 22:53:

By DAN KEANE, Associated Press Writer
9 minutes ago



BOGOTA, Colombia - The guerrilla walked out of the jungle tired, hungry and bearing the dismembered hand of his slain commander.

ADVERTISEMENT

The rebel, known simply as Rojas, said the Colombian troops were closing in on his guerrilla column and he wanted out of the fight. But the rebels shoot deserters — so instead he murdered his commander and fled, lopping off the dead man's right hand to present to the army.

"I did it to save my life," the mustachioed rebel told a press conference Saturday in the western city of Pereira. "Because if you're going to desert, they'll shoot you."

The morbid delivery represented an unexpected gift for President Alvaro Uribe: the death of the second top Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, leader in a week, and a severe blow to the rebel group's four-decade-long insurgency.

The slaying of Ivan Rios, leader of the FARC's central region, came less than a week after Colombian troops crossed the border into Ecuador on March 1 and killed senior rebel commander Raul Reyes and 24 others. The raid sparked a diplomatic crisis that saw Ecuador and its ally Venezuela both pull their ambassadors from Bogota and order troops to their borders with Colombia.

Presidents of the three countries agreed to end the dispute at a summit of Latin American leaders held Friday in the Dominican Republic, but hard feelings still linger.

Uribe argued the strike was necessary because Ecuador had allowed the guerrillas to take refuge within its borders, and accused both Ecuador and Venezuela of supporting the leftist rebels. Both nations vehemently denied the charge, and denounced Colombia's violation of Ecuadorean sovereignty.

On Saturday, Ecuadorean President Rafael Correa said he would "take a little time" before restoring diplomatic relations with Colombia. He added it would be "difficult to recover trust" in Colombia's government, but "we will converse and move forward."

But in Colombia, the death of Rios pushed aside these diplomatic worries as military officials proudly displayed his body wrapped in a white plastic sheet — with a small bullet hole in the middle of his forehead.

"The death of Ivan Rios, at the hands of one of his own fellow guerrillas, definitely has to represent the interior implosion" of the rebels, said Gen. Mario Montoya, the army's top commander.

Analysts say the deaths of Reyes and Rios, 46, represent a domestic triumph for Uribe well worth the fallout with Ecuador and Venezuela.

"These are very big victories" for Uribe, said Leon Valencia, a Colombian political analyst formerly with the now defunct M-19 leftist rebel group. "How he handled this sometimes doesn't fit with the politics of the rest of the Andean region, but they're still very big victories."

Rojas presented himself to Colombian troops on Thursday carrying Rios' right hand, laptop, passport and ID card.

After verifying Rios' identity by fingerprints, Colombian officials announced Rios' death Friday afternoon — even as Uribe and Correa were stiffly shaking hands at the Santo Domingo summit, warily declaring their feud to be over.

Rojas, who appears to be in his 40s and whose real name is Pedro Montoya, described how dwindling food supplies and relentless pursuit by troops prompted him to kill Rios and his girlfriend, known only as Andrea, before making his escape.

"We were out there 15 days, the food was getting scarce and the troops could have entered our area at any moment," he said Saturday.

The U.S. State Department had a bounty of $5 million for Rios' capture, although the agency's spokesman, Kurtis Cooper, had no comment on whether the reward would be paid in this case.

It was unclear whether Colombian officials would offer their own reward. But Gen. Montoya said Saturday the nation's defense ministry had "every intention" of paying Rojas, now in military custody.

Rios' face, ringed by a thin black beard, became known across Colombia when he represented the FARC in failed 2002 peace talks. Unlike the FARC's mostly peasant leadership, he was a former university student who engaged journalists and foreign envoys in political discussions.

In a 1999 interview with The Associated Press, Rios said he joined the insurgency as an economics student in Medellin in the 1980s to avoid being killed by right-wing death squads that had attacked other student activists. A report Saturday in the El Espectador newspaper said Rios was key to managing the FARC's finances, just as Reyes handled its foreign relations.

Colombian troops had launched an operation designed to capture Rios on Feb. 17 after receiving tips that he was in a mountainous area straddling the western Colombian provinces of Caldas and Antioquia. Troops engaged the guerrillas' outer security ring seven times before Rojas killed Rios, Defense Minister Juan Manuel Santos said Friday after Rojas turned himself in.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 01:54:

I enjoy the thought of every FARC leader looking over his shoulder every minute now at his own bodyguards :)

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 01:58:

buggy says we might enjoy the deaths of children huh?

Typical twisting the truth. Those of us who are happy to see these guys die are happy because these people kill innocent children. We're celebrating the lives that have been saved as much as anything.

Those of you who mourn the deaths of terrorists and mass murderers are the ones with suspect consciences IMO.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 04:28:

I had already stated that I do not mourn their deaths; I just find no pleasure in wallowing in gory details. Death comes to us all; to the good, to the bad and the ugly. I find all this celebrating of death, mutilation in poor taste and below human dignity.

Pod, once more, it's the black and white filter of your mind that does not allow you to see things clearly: not to delight in blood and gory details does not mean that one approves these people or their actions. There's nothing suspect about it. My conscience is crystal-clear.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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sloopskipper says on Mar 9, 2008, 04:53:

Totally agree, Desi.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:04:

making a pun does not equate to 'celebrating death and mutilation' or 'delighting in blood and gory details'

Colombians' black sense of humour in the face of all the violence they have suffered is just one more thing I love about them

And things are black and white, you can tell good from evil, and I will continue to rejoice every time another evil person leaves this earth.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:15:

I disagree. There are no absolutes. Good and evil do not exist in their most abstract, pure form, not within the human mind. Even the most evil person has a grain of goodness somewhere, deeply buried within; even the best and noblest person alive is guilty of some evildoing. It's all relative and subjective.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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kalder says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:18:

I'll agree with pod on this one.

Personally, I couldn't give a damn about how much gallows humour comes into play when some commie narco-terrorist is killed.
Any pious observing the niceities is not all that far removed from offering the German people condolences on the death of their leader in 1945. Technically, it might be correct etiquette. But these are murderers. Who cares?

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:43:

I'm well aware that the whole world does not share my sensitivities about these issues. I have a twisted sense of humour myself, but I'm receptive in front of real-life death and suffering. I can't take these things on a stride, it's against my nature.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:45:

at least we know why we fundamentally disagree desi.

I am an objectivist, and don't believe at all that things are relative or subjective. Not even art or music.

Of course Hitler might have liked dogs, and of course Mother Teresa might have once slapped a child, but if you can't tell the difference between the two, well....

One is evil, one is not. To say one is 99.99999% evil and the other is 0.000001% evil is a meaningless triviality.

There are good and bad people in the world, and with very few exceptions they choose to be that way (and I'm not talking about someone stealing a piece of bread to avoid starving).

The world is a better place without the bad ones.

(BTW, I recall within an hour after the shuttle challenger blew up, people were making jokes about it. I didn't appreciate that as the astronauts certainly didn't deserve that fate. I think it's a natural human response to use humour to reduce stress, etc.)

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divingdave911 says on Mar 9, 2008, 06:58:

No doubt that Desi has a soft heart about this issue.

Many people that would be inclined to join FARC or other similar organizations probably do NOT have a soft heart. The visual images of what happens to bad people is a great motivator to stay GOOD.

Members of FARC need to revolt against their leaders, collect their rewards and reenter society with their primary weapon being the vote that they hold in their hand (if they lost a hand - they always have another).

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 10:12:

Rios is going to come and haunted you ::: At night he will come and pull your legs while you are sleep , you wait and see...

engage brain before opening mouth

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RAAAY says on Mar 9, 2008, 10:19:

Perhaps he may pull someone's leg......but surely, pulling " legs" would need two hands........




AGGGGHHHHHH......i did it again.......sorry Desi...........

.........Its useless to argue with ignorance

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 10:37:

LOL

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cali373 says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:07:

"Those of you who mourn the deaths of terrorists and mass murderers are the ones with suspect consciences IMO."

your right podorski, which is why I would never mourn the death of Bush or Uribe as well.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:13:

And then all of us "Good people" wonder why an insurgency exists in Colombia.

This is an intersting statement from FARC memeber Pedro Montoya. Please remember that Uribe was one of the political elites of medellin during the 80´s:

"In a 1999 interview with The Associated Press, Rios said he joined the insurgency as an economics student in Medellin in the 1980s to avoid being killed by right-wing death squads that had attacked other student activists."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080309/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/colombia_rebels;...

Smile if you are a thinker!

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tomtom33 says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:23:

There will always be people in every country that don't like something. Does it become an insurgency when those people start kidnapping and killing?

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Albatross says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:31:

¨There are good and bad people in the world¨ - Podborski
True, but often it´s difficult to distinguish one from the other... until it´s too late.

I often think of the movie ¨The Dead Zone¨, it brings up an interesting question of what should one do if they knew of someone like Hitler long before anyone else. And how would they be remembered if they tried to stop him... as a lunatic or a hero ?

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:31:

No tomtom. It becomes an insurgency when they arm themselves, get into a camo and head for the hills. When they start kidnapping and killing civilians they stop being insurgency and become criminals.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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cali373 says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:36:

Don´t like something!!! talk about an understatement.

If I dont like something here in the U.S. , I can speak out, write letters, etc without worrying that I will get killed in the middle of the night.

That´s what paramilitaries did in medellin to activism against the status quo. Ever heard of the (UP) patriotic union party, ask them why an insurgency exists. oh wait, You can´t because they are all DEAD and former members will not dare admit they were former members for fear of their lives.

I think that in today´s political climate an insurgency in colombia doe snot do any good and they should demobilize. But if there are ever reasons why an insurgency should exist, Colombia has all those reasons.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Alma del Norte says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:40:

at Kalder

"Any pious observing the niceities is not all that far removed from offering the German people condolences on the death of their leader in 1945."

Sorry mate, you just forfeited your side the argument by virtue of Godwin's Law:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

La vida es una rutina

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 11:45:

"In a 1999 interview with The Associated Press, Rios said he joined the insurgency as an economics student in Medellin in the 1980s to avoid being killed by right-wing death squads that had attacked other student activists."

that's a pathetic excuse to become a terrorist. I'm pretty sure lots of students in medellin are not killed by right wing death squads.

maybe I'd buy the story if FARC were targeting paras and not innocent citizens.

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gringoloid says on Mar 9, 2008, 12:09:

alma......you beat me to it..........thanks for the godwins law argument.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 12:10:

That's selective reading, pod. It said "student activists", not just students. Might look like a little thingie, but it makes a huge difference.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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gringoloid says on Mar 9, 2008, 12:18:

this youtube video keeps on being taken down..........neocons flag it as 'harmful' and it is removed.

the point is not whats going on here at the time the movie is taken..............it's all people around the world watching this video.

the marine throwing the puppy off a cliff is a marine..............I suspect the others are Blackwater Mercenarys.

catch it while you can........

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cali373 says on Mar 9, 2008, 12:50:

Sorry podborski

But it is a well known fact that Paramilitairy gangs would kill student activists in Medellin. Not students, Student activists. It´s just that you wont see that on RCN, caracol or el tiempo.

The FARC do go after paramilitaries , the ones that don´t go after the paramilitaries are the Colombia Military.

I would not join an insuregency for that reason either. Either way you could end up dead, I would probably go underground as many groups did during the US civil rights movement, abolition movement, US revolutionary war, Apartheid.

But the truth is that neither you or I, or most people here grew up in a country where people would be killed or imprisioned for their views, ike China, former soviet union, Colombia, Cuba. so we cannot guarantee that we know what course of action we would take.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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billyb says on Mar 9, 2008, 13:26:

I see some want to implement a HANDS OFF policy when it comes to making puns about dead terrorists.

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kalder says on Mar 9, 2008, 13:57:

The Nazis are the touchstone of evil in the modern consciousness. To decline to make reference to them in the discussion of ethics is just plain silly. Especially when a gurning twat like Godwin says you can't.

I forfeit nowt our kid.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Alma del Norte says on Mar 9, 2008, 13:59:

Sorry, not listening,

La vida es una rutina

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:11:

anyway I mentioned Hitler first, and then albatross, so kalder's in the clear

only a nazi would make up such a stupid law anyway

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:16:

desi/cali, whether this student activist was endangered or not is irrelevant. There is no excuse to kill innocent civilians. There is a whole world of other options to take.

You two far too easily accept these rationalizations IMHO.

I see a whole lot of people speaking up for FARC right here on PBH, and have yet to hear of any of them being killed.

But maybe that's because billyb hasn't got his hands on them yet.

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Alma del Norte says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:17:

Ok, I'm not listening to you then. Nya nya nya, can't hear you.

La vida es una rutina

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:35:

Alma, excuse me who are you not listening to?

engage brain before opening mouth

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:39:

I think he means me now kat.

and kat, who's leg is going to get pulled at night? Mine? That's all I need right now.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:40:

alma I mentioned mother teresa in the same line with Hitler, so I think they cancel out.

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cali373 says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:43:

Suppression of freedom of speech and limiting democracy in a so called democratic nation. yeah that is not a good reason to rationalize an insurgency. But taxation without representation is!

Smile if you are a thinker!

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:47:

listen cali you can support the murder of children because someone feels they don't have free speech (yet here you are speaking freely are you not?) and try to say it compares to 1776, but you're wasting your time with me on that.

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tomtom33 says on Mar 9, 2008, 14:50:

Cali, what a brilliant analogy. Exactly the same situations.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:02:

One of the important lessons I've learned from Colombia is that some people just can't die soon enough.

Really, having seen the suffering dished out by guys like Rios (and, since the para thing always comes up, Castaño), I've really just come to the unsentimental conclusion that a lot of good can come from a few more precision bombings and turncoat security guys.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:06:

I'm holding my breath for the next defense of FARC terrorists which of course is the inevitable 'and Bush invaded Iraq....'

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Man Tequila says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:12:

I try to stay out of these things. But I'm not sure that FARC is all about the free speech.

Adios FARC? Another guy will rise through the ranks. Too much money at stake.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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billyb says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:19:

The bombing of Reyes is already paying dividends. Rojas has said that the news of Reyes being killed factored into his decision to plug Rios in the forehead. Also the army intercepted a conversation where a man is telling some people that within the FARC there is a group that is dedicated to killing las cabecillas and collecting the reward money. Now that must surely keep them awake at night.

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divingdave911 says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:35:

I think that the risk of being blown to bits or shot in the head will make others think twice of stepping up to the plate to take on leadership positions in FARC.

If Uribe keeps the pressure on them AND welcomes back the majority of FARC members who were mere foot soldiers he could stay on this roll and really bring the country together.

It is critical, in my opinion, that JOBS be created in the country, however. Colombia needs manufacturing jobs and good export markets. Thank the Freakin' Democrats in USA's Congress for screwing the free trade agreement up.

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billyb says on Mar 9, 2008, 15:38:

DivingD, job training, amnesty and counseling (except in certain human rights cases) are included in the program of reinsertion to civilian life that the Uribe admin offers both guerillas and paras who give turn themelves in.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 16:28:

as usual I think man t is right on both counts (staying out of these things and the free speech bit)

now I'm going to work a bit. Good thing I'm a handyman. When I check in later I hope to see some more bad puns.

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billyb says on Mar 9, 2008, 17:58:

Pod, you mean regarding the matter at hand?

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robi666 says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:05:

It seems that alias Rojas won't be able to get his money...

Hay vacíos jurídicos para el pago de recompensa y beneficios al guerrillero que asesinó a 'Iván Ríos'
Fuente: Caracol 03/09/2008 - 15:19:00

Analistas consultados por Caracol Radio consideraron que hay un vacío normativo para poder entregar la recompensa de 5 mil millones de pesos a Pablo Montoya, alias "Rojas", el guerrillero que asesinó a "Ivan Ríos" integrante del secretariado de las FARC.

Para el ex director del DAS, Ramiro Bejarano, no hay una ley que permita recompensar a una persona que ha asesinado a un hombre por más delincuente que sea teniendo en cuenta que en Colombia no existe la pena de muerte.

"Lo que alias "Rojas" le aplicó a su comandante fue la pena de muerte", dijo Bejarano.

Explicó que no se puede dar el mensaje que todo está permitido ya que la ejecución se dio no con fines altruistas sino con el fin de obtener un incentivo económico.

"No hay legislación que otorgue recompensa a un insurgente que mate y cobre por ello ya que hasta el más criminal como lo fue "Ivan Ríos", tenía derecho a un juicio justo", dijo Bejarano.

Por su parte, el ex presidente de la Corte Constitucional, Alfredo Beltrán Sierra, sostuvo que lo que en este caso se da es un homicidio por investigar, por el cual se debe aplicar la sanción que corresponda.

En cuanto a la recompensa, dijo que solo opera por información que lleve a la captura de personas buscadas por las autoridades y si producto de los datos obtenidos muere la persona en combate es procedente pero no para una persona que asesina al sindicado y le corta la mano.

La ex ministra de defensa y congresista, Marta Lucia Ramírez, dijo que sí opera la recompensa pero no lo exime de responder ante las autoridades por el homicidio de "Ivan Ríos" ya el que objetivo no es que se entienda que se exima de la pena por matar a una persona.

"Cualquier persona dentro o fuera de una organización delictiva puede cobrar la recompensa aunque hay que mirar caso por caso" advirtió la congresista.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:06:

Billy a ustedes se les fue la mano!.

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rocinante says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:08:

I ain't read the whole thread just the OP. Yeah a few deaths can take the wind out of any group's sails. Until an agreement is reached the FARC will be around forever until the cause is removed.

"World economic indicators point to a democrat winning 2008. It will surely be Obama. Peso 1400 by November" Feb 5, 2008

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pedro says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:08:

The reward money is an interesting factor in this story. It seems the bodyguard was mostly interested in receiving a hand out.

que nota!

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:09:

A ver quien le da una manito a podboskie.

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:14:

La mod nos va dar un mano a mano, asi que portemonos bien.

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 18:17:

Bill: no mano, no jodas mas que nos van a sacar.

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billyb says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:12:

jaja, Don't worry Lisa, we'll just get our hands slapped a little.

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:42:

jaja I knew you wouldn't let me down

I think billyb wins the prize for most/best puns, hands down

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:45:

as for the reward money, surely a marxist is not interested in money? Or at least he plans to give it all to poor helpless victims anyway, right?

(reality is, he's already thinking 'what happens in vegas...')

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poco says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:46:

Quote: I think billyb wins the prize for most/best puns, hands down

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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podborski says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:50:

and a handsome reward it is too...

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Colombiche says on Mar 9, 2008, 19:55:

"The guy was a guerrilla, yet he was a human being too. I think this making fun of him at death is not only macabre, it's in poor taste."

I am sorry Desi. You are not aware of how much pain FARC has caused us...... you just have not felt the pain in your own skin. You are a as close to a colombiana as a european can get (tipping my hat to you with all due respect) but.... you have not yet felt the pain of finding out your cousin/uncle/nephew has been taken out of circulation. Las penas en pellejo ajeno son muy llevaderas.

Okay, I just downed 5 brugales and I'm off to Jaraugua..

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Alma del Norte says on Mar 9, 2008, 20:07:

"Okay, I just downed 5 brugales and I'm off to Jaraugua."

Lucky you.

How many, (relatives), have you lost?.

La vida es una rutina

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Colombiche says on Mar 9, 2008, 20:08:

1 physically and 1 mentally.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Alma del Norte says on Mar 9, 2008, 20:10:

I'm sorry

La vida es una rutina

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webmanco says on Mar 9, 2008, 20:12:

Ditto Desi.

My hat off to those who had been victims or lost a close friend y/o relative, and had learned to forgive and not to make fun at the dead of others, regardless their background.

(I really hate it when women get their panties all bunched up their butt, they can get so cranky!) Poor butt happy

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Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 9, 2008, 20:34:

I'm hoping the Colombian government quick figures out a way to justify the paying of rewards "Dead or Alive" for delivery of the bad guys. Because I feel pretty sure that nobody is bringing El Mono out alive.

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robi666 says on Mar 9, 2008, 21:14:

Pain will harden your soul, easy money will corrupt and poverty will make you miserable. The story of Colombia.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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poco says on Mar 9, 2008, 21:19:

Quote: Quote: I think billyb wins the prize for most/best puns, hands down

Sorry,, I forgot.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 22:21:

I have to hand it to you billy, congrats for the price.

Now POCO, really you are just getting out of hand, stop it.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Mar 9, 2008, 22:24:

Thank you all, especially billy and poco, for the consideration so generously shown to my request.

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Lisa Zee says on Mar 9, 2008, 22:24:

Well that is it you guys, raise your right hand and swear you won`t do it again!

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poco says on Mar 9, 2008, 22:29:

Quote: Well that is it you guys, raise your right hand and swear you won`t do it again!



This thread started off as a 1 and has slowly but surely moved up the scale.

"Violence is the first refuge of the incompetent" - Isaac Asimov

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podborski says on Mar 10, 2008, 05:05:

yeah my hands off to all involved (ok, that was the worst so far, I admit..)

sorry desi!

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billyb says on Mar 10, 2008, 06:42:

Desi, Ivan Rios was a miserable POS that never felt an ounce of remorse for his victims, I have not a single ounce of sympathy for him and hope he is rotting in hell. I'm sorry you feel so much compassion for such depraved person. I will save my sympathy and respect for his victims instead.

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billyb says on Mar 10, 2008, 06:47:

"I'm hoping the Colombian government quick figures out a way to justify the paying of rewards "Dead or Alive" for delivery of the bad guys. Because I feel pretty sure that nobody is bringing El Mono out alive."




Marzo 10 de 2008

Principio jurídico de oportunidad permitiría a guerrilleros que entreguen jefes reclamar recompensas

Información relacion