"Return of the Idïot" (Chavez) by Alvaro Varga LLosa

manINred says on Jul 17, 2007, 11:16:

hey good post podborski, I just read that in the national post. There's an article in the same paper today on Canada-Colombia relations, a good one at that. Harper supports the progress made in Colombia.

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manINred says on Jul 17, 2007, 11:21:

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=50af338d-ef8a-49...

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aztec says on Jul 17, 2007, 12:08:

podborski,

Thanks for the article. It speaks to the the war of ideas currently being regurgitated in Central and South America. It is just unfortunate memories are so short lived and education in such disrepair in Central and South America. For as the Spanish-American philosopher, George Santayana said, "Those who cannot remember the past are destined to repeat it."

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2007, 12:42:

Olor - your posts are being deleted because they are completely off topic or are insults directed toward other members that have posted in this thread. If you'd care to read the article, you'd realize that "Idiot" refers to a word in a book title authored by a Colombian plus the son of Mario Vargas Llosa.

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raulinho says on Jul 17, 2007, 12:53:

Mario Vargos Llosa is a right wong fascist and regurgitates the same old crap again and again and do you think it is fair the stinking rich in Colombia and Venezuela just get richer and richer while the poor starve well that was preChavez and current Colombia and yes ok Chavez's friends are getting rich but at least he is telling the multinationals to fuck off and stop raping the country !

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aztec says on Jul 17, 2007, 12:57:

OK, olor de historia , this would be an excellent opportunity for you to present a rational calm response to the authors laying out where they are incorrect in their analysis. Hopefully, you will support your hypotheses with documented evidence.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2007, 12:58:

If you've followed the site for a while, a fair number of people say just the opposite.

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manINred says on Jul 17, 2007, 13:04:

After reading the article, it is clear where the author's political views lie. He is biased, yet makes some adept points. I think the 'idiot' brand is slightly harsh and indeed unfairly derogatory, yet he is still not completely unjustified in what he writes.

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seacritter says on Jul 17, 2007, 13:17:

After living in Central and South America for a while, his article has a lot of good points. It's unfortunate to watch this in person. So far, the only rich people that I've met are part of the "good old boy" networks or politicians. It would be nice to see some of the immense wealth being routed into education. Education is the way up for all countries. But I don't see that happening...

Scott

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Jul 17, 2007, 13:27:

Hmm...I used the word find feature and couldn't find a single instance of "robertson" or "iraq."

Stay on topic, ignore the article or go troll somewhere else.

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aztec says on Jul 17, 2007, 13:27:

olor de historia, Your response is not exactly replete with research. There is a paucity of intellectual rigor as evidenced by your relying on worn out rhetoric from leftist philosophy.

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scotty says on Jul 17, 2007, 15:45:

thanks you commrade olor for those words of wisdom. I agree with manlnred we should call Chavez an idiot a better discription would be jackass.

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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podborski says on Jul 17, 2007, 18:55:

Of course the author is biased, it was after all in the "opinions and ideas" section of the newspaper.

Funny that the 'leftists' are always asking for people not to post or to have stuff deleted, and the 'rightists' are asking that people stop deleting stuff. Kind of mirrors real world politics.

FWIW, I am an atheist and so have never paid attention to Pat Robertson, but he sounds like another type of idiot to me.

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podborski says on Jul 17, 2007, 19:01:

at raulinho

My quick read of the article suggests the author is tired of seeing the same problems you do, yet the people in SA keep voting for the same type of incompetent, corrupt leaders.

So you think more of the same should benefit the poor?

Seems to me something needs to change, but 'new' socialism is hardly going to deliver better results than 'old socialism'.

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billyb says on Jul 17, 2007, 19:11:

You are right Pod, Robertson is an idiot from the other end of the spectrum.It is funny though, that leftwingers are the biggest propoents of freedom speech, that is until somebody disagrees with them.

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Sr Tertius says on Jul 17, 2007, 19:24:

Briefly:

1. I find it hard to take any argument seriously from people like Carlos Montaner, so dead set on ignoring reality for his own bizarre ideological purposes. Recall that Montaner is the guy who says that hunger is not a real problem in Latin America, but obesity is. This, despite overwhelming evidence of malnourishment in the urban poor and news of famine in several parts of Latin America (in Colombia, Choco). More details here.

2. The synopsis of the book (as its predecesor, the manual) suggests that the book is simply an enumeration of neoliberal doctrine, with the added value of calling everyone who disagrees with them "idiots." Not quite an invitation to reasoned debate and, thus, not my kind of literature.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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scotty says on Jul 18, 2007, 05:26:

how about i call Chavez burro?

Get Rhythm, when you got the blues. Johnny Cash

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aztec says on Jul 18, 2007, 05:47:

I just knew this thread would bring out Sr Tertius. In fact I was waiting for his comments. Thankfully he didn't unload on me so I can safely go about my business of retirement.

Sr Tertius, please know my comment is not criticism. Indeed when I am in a discussion where you are present I know I must remain alert because you are no dummy. I enjoy the repartee but do disagree with most of your positions. We simply see the world through different windows.

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podborski says on Jul 18, 2007, 09:37:

sr t is not very good at setting up straw men, even though he tries a lot.

I haven't read the book, but the synopsis I read made it clear that the term 'idiot' refers to the bad political leaders that have plagued south america, not to people who disagree with the authors.

But I guess sr t is quite impressed with the political leaders SA has had? jeez, i'd hate to even think about how bad the ones who don't impress him are.

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Sr Tertius says on Jul 18, 2007, 11:41:

Pod: "the synopsis I read made it clear that the term 'idiot' refers to the bad political leaders that have plagued south america"

There are three alternatives:

1. Harold Pinter was a Congressman in Bolivia, and Noam Chomsky was vicepresident of Uruguay, or
2. The synopsis is wrong or incomplete, or
3. You didn't read well.

I read Mario Vargas Llosas's synopsis, which has been widely publicized and which I presumed positive since one of the authors is his son. Indeed, there is very little criticism and much more praise in his review. MVL doesn't specify who exactly are the idiots, although he refers to particular examples. He also writes about a continent being "idiotizado," and of "idiotic ideologies," and, of course, of "international idiots."

The book appears to be full of the kind of labels you seem to enjoy (e.g., "vegetarian" vs. "meat-eating" left). I think that kind of opinion shows more prejudice than knowledge, and obstructs rather than inform discussions. As I said, not my kind of literature. On the other hand, I found Joseph Stiglitz's book on globalization very interesting; labels were scant. Aside from that book, Pod, I'd also suggest you to verify your assumptions before jumping to conclusions, and witty as you think they might be.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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