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Retired Colombian Military fighting for freedom in Iraq next to Americans

By Sonni Efron
Los Angeles Times
July 30, 2005

For hire: more than 1,000 U.S.-trained former soldiers and police officers from Colombia. Combat-hardened, experienced in fighting insurgents and ready for duty in Iraq.

This eye-popping advertisement recently appeared on an Iraq jobs website, posted by an American entrepreneur who hopes to supply security forces for U.S. contractors in Iraq and elsewhere. If hired, the Colombians would join a swelling population of heavily armed private military forces working in Iraq and other global hot spots. They also would join a growing corps of workers from the developing world who are seeking higher wages in dangerous jobs, in what some critics say is a troubling result of efforts by the U.S. to "outsource" its operations in Iraq and other countries.

In a telephone interview from Colombia, the entrepreneur, Jeffrey Shippy, said he saw a booming global demand for his "private army," and a lucrative business opportunity in recruiting Colombians. Shippy, who formerly worked for DynCorp International, a major U.S. security contractor, said the Colombians were willing to work for $2,500 to $5,000 a month, compared with perhaps $10,000 or more for Americans. But where Shippy sees opportunity, others see trouble. Rep. Jan Schakowsky, an Illinois Democrat, worries that U.S. government contractors are hiring thousands of impoverished former military personnel, with no public scrutiny, little accountability and large hidden costs to taxpayers.

The United States has spent more than $4 billion since 2000 on Plan Colombia, a counter-terrorism and counter-narcotics program that includes training and support for the Colombian police and military. Last month, Congress moved toward approval of an additional $734.5 million in aid to the Andean region in 2006, most of it for Colombia. "We're training foreign nationals - who then take that training and market it to private companies, who pay them three or four times as much as we're paying soldiers," Schakowsky said. "American taxpayers are paying for the training of those Colombian soldiers," she said. "When they leave to take more lucrative jobs, perhaps with an American military contractor, they take that training with them. So then we're paying to train that person's replacement. And then we're paying the bill to the private military contractors."

An estimated 20,000 Iraqis and about 6,000 non-Iraqis work in private security in Iraq, said Doug Brooks, president of International Peace Operations Assn., a trade group representing the burgeoning industry. Security accounts for as much as 25% of reconstruction costs in Iraq, eating a substantial portion of an $18.4-billion rebuilding package funded by the U.S.

Fijians, Ukrainians, South Africans, Nepalese and Serbs reportedly are on the job in Iraq. Peter W. Singer of the Brookings Institution, author of a book on the private military industry, said veterans of Latin American conflicts, including Guatemalans, Salvadorans and Nicaraguans, also had turned up. "What we've done in Iraq is assemble a true 'coalition of the billing,' " Singer said, playing off President Bush's description of the U.S.-led alliance of nations with a troop presence in Iraq as a "coalition of the willing."

There are no reliable figures on the number of guards from Colombia or other countries. According to Shippy, private military experts and news reports, North Carolina-based Blackwater USA has sent 120 Colombians to Iraq. In addition, the firm reportedly has hired 122 Chileans. The reports are difficult to verify because many large companies, including DynCorp, which is based in Texas and operates in 40 countries, have policies against speaking to the media. Gary Jackson, president of Blackwater USA, said he had no comment.

Shippy, an Air Force veteran whose work for private military contractors has included stints in Saudi Arabia, Ecuador and Iraq, extolled the Colombians' virtues. "These forces have been fighting terrorists the last 41 years," he wrote in his web posting seeking work. "These troops have been trained by the U.S. Navy SEALs and the U.S. [Drug Enforcement Administration] to conduct counter-drug/counter-terror ops in the jungles and rivers of Colombia."

The Colombians would join the lucrative private military industry in Iraq even as the U.S.-funded war against drug traffickers continues to rage in their homeland. Experts are divided on the effect that would have on U.S. national interests. "It's not necessarily self-defeating, but it's not optimal," Singer said. The recruitment of Colombians shows that although "there's still a local demand" for high-end military services in Colombia, "the global demand is far higher," he said.

Two experts on the Colombian military said highly trained officers were constantly being retired from the armed forces to face low wages and widespread unemployment in the nation's troubled economy. There is no hemorrhage of manpower in the 200,000-strong Colombian army, which relies on a draft and a plentiful supply of volunteers, said Thomas A. Marks, a specialist on the country's military. Colombians who have completed their military service are entitled to seek higher-paying private-sector jobs when their stints are up, as are U.S. soldiers, he said.

"What's wrong with them using their skills, their know-how in Iraq?" asked David Spencer, a Washington-based security consultant who has spent nine years working in Colombia. "It's good for the Colombian because he makes more money than he could make in Colombia, and it's good for the [U.S.] contractor because he has to pay less than he'd pay an American."

Colombia has no law discouraging citizens from going to work in Iraq, in contrast to attempts in Nepal and the Philippines to ban or regulate such work after some of their citizens were killed or kidnapped in Iraq.

Sanho Tree, a Latin America specialist at the Institute for Policy Studies in Washington who spotted Shippy's job posting, said the availability of high-paying private security jobs could drain talent from the Colombian military, just as it had from the U.S. military. Moreover, he noted, there is no way to guarantee the loyalty of even U.S.-trained troops once they go to work for private companies. "One of the real red-flag issues here is these people are free to do as they choose . not only to work for U.S.-aligned objectives in Iraq, but also to work for the bad guys," Tree said.

Shippy said he had been in business for only three months and had yet to land a contract for the Colombians. He said he was interested in recruiting only Colombians who had been thoroughly vetted for criminal or human rights problems, to work for companies with U.S. government contracts. Shippy said a trip to Baghdad had convinced him there was plenty of opportunity. "The U.S. State Department is very interested in saving money on security now," Shippy said. "Because they're driving the prices down, we're seeking Third World people to fill the positions."

But Rep. Schakowsky argued that the Colombian military had a poor human rights record, and she questioned how thoroughly Colombian troops headed for Iraq could be vetted, given that many violators had not been pursued by Colombian authorities. Some Democrats in Congress and other critics say the increase in private military contracts raises important ethical and financial questions and that laws governing these transactions have yet to keep up.

Schakowsky, who is a longtime critic of private military contractors, said she had asked repeatedly for copies of Defense Department contracts with the private military firms, but "it's fighting tooth and nail to get them." She said she planned to write to Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld for details about private companies' hiring of Plan Colombia veterans for work in Iraq. "Our relationship with those contractors, the amount of money we've paid to them, is going to be one of the biggest stories of this war," Schakowsky said. "It's all very murky, and Congress certainly has not done a great deal of oversight."

After the gruesome killings of four Blackwater contractors last year in Fallouja, Rep. David E. Price (D-N.C.) proposed legislation to require private military firms working under federal contract to disclose their pay structures, benefits, insurance and employee casualties. The bill died, but Price plans to try again this year.

It is unclear what legal responsibility, if any, the United States or other foreign governments may have to foreign nationals who are killed, wounded or kidnapped while working for U.S.-paid contractors in Iraq, or to any Iraqis they harm.

In May, Sen. Patrick J. Leahy (D-Vt.) asked Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice to provide more information about the authority of private companies working under U.S. contracts in Iraq. "What are the rules governing the use of lethal force by private security contractors?" Leahy asked."What happens when a private security contractor paid by the State Department deployed overseas runs over somebody with a vehicle, shoots an innocent person or otherwise causes harm on the job or off the job? Who is responsible? Are they, or are we?" Rice promised to supply the information, but Leahy's office said this month that it had not received the answers.

By mcraig on Aug 10, 2006, 14:20 in Politics & the war.

greg says on Aug 10, 2006, 15:48:

Another Sick fuck using war to make money. Don`t need any more mercenaries over there!

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tejasmarcos says on Aug 10, 2006, 19:06:

brilliant idea. kudos for being creative and supplying demand. pure capitalism in my books. wish i would have thought of it first.....

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Miguel says on Aug 10, 2006, 19:21:

"mercenaries" Exactly.

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arthur brode says on Aug 10, 2006, 21:09:

Capitalism at its best At least these "Mercenaries" have the experience it takes to get the job done with less casualties and bureaucratic red tape.

http://www.calirentals.net/

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Dolfi says on Aug 11, 2006, 01:54:

Yeah, fighting for the freedom to be blown up by terrorists.

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mcraig says on Aug 12, 2006, 07:21:

war to make money How about using trained colombian help protect oil lines to the south of Iraq to be exported so the profits can go to set up a democratic goverment an its services to its people. Seems to me this is honarable seeing 25 million are going to be a democratic free country for the firt time 45 years. My hats off to the colombians there , they are using there training an specility training an are trying to stop the same type of terroism that has haunted colombia for years.

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mcraig says on Aug 12, 2006, 07:23:

Because the colombians are being paid properly for there skill for the first time in there military lives. Does not over weigh the fact that ultimately its there courage to help others using those skills they have learned.

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Monpirri says on Aug 12, 2006, 13:43:

Colombian Battalion - Korean War Mcraig, it’s an interesting article about Colombians veterans fighting for freedom today.
In 1951 Colombia also sent a battalion to the Korea War. My brother-in-law was a marine in the Korea War.

http://www.koreanwar.org/html/units/un/colombia.htm

Hopefully, Colombia would benefit a little with the FTA next year when the Free Trade Agreement is signed between Colombia and US.
I’m wondering what ever happened to the other thread where I listed some of the 20 countries that participated in the Iraq war? Does anybody know?

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Monpirri says on Aug 12, 2006, 13:46:

More details about Colombian Veterans of the Korean War La Asociación Colombiana de Veteranos de la Guerra de Corea
http://www.ascove.org/ascove/index.php

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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greg says on Aug 12, 2006, 15:51:

Iraq Is a total disaster and if Israel keeps up their bullshit in Lebanon
i think things will only get worse. Wonder how many of the Colombians graduated from the U.S. terrorist school in Ft. Benning
This is crazy and i see no good coming from it, only heartache from Colombian families when these guys start coming back in body bags.

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Monpirri says on Aug 12, 2006, 17:58:

Here's a photo from the Korean War

Colombian Battalion - Batallón de Infantería de Colombia

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 12, 2006, 19:05:

Colombians at the trough Iraq is like a feeding trough for all the ex-military of the world right about now. Thousands of guys who were looking at becoming a grease-monkey in Sheepsnut, Idaho are suddenly all declaring themselves "ex-Special forces" and getting $150,000 a year to hunker down and tough it out for a while in Iraq.

I don't see why the Colombians shouldn't get their piece of that action. Especially when you think about how many US military contractors have made a pile of money in Colombia

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platano says on Aug 13, 2006, 00:09:

arthur brode, I really enjoyed your comment: "At least these "Mercenaries" have the experience it takes to get the job done with less casualties..."

Are they getting the job done? Does experience prevent being blown to bits by an IED?

Freedom has nothing to do with invading and occupying a country whose democratically elected government (and a majority of its citizens) doesn't even want Colombian mercenaries there.

plátano

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vladimiro says on Aug 13, 2006, 00:52:

In Full Metal Jacket A marine declares that inside every Vietnamese there's an American just dying to get out. I guess that's what many Americans think about Iraqis, too. But the freedom they refer to is definately not refering to the freedom from foriegn occupation or economic globalization or the onslaught of a Western-dominated media culture unconsciously bent on conquering the world.

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arthur brode says on Aug 13, 2006, 23:16:

as long as Bush is in office the war will continue.so whats wrong with having Mercenaries over there?It sure beats the National Guard.

http://www.calirentals.net/

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FredGarvin says on Aug 18, 2006, 08:23:

Greg,"Iraq is a total Greg,

"Iraq is a total disaster...."

You really need to preface this kind of comment with logic. Before you type, you might want to build-in some context (good or bad) or a simple reason instead of spitting out such a broad inaccuracy.

Here's a great example of how to do just that...

"Perhaps Iraq is not the disaster that people conjur it to be beacuse of the media's continuous counting of war related deaths. For example, perhaps the argument can be made that without U.S. victory over the German's ARDENNES OFFENSIVE in 1944, defeating Nazi Germany may not have come so quickly.

At the very least, more Amercian and German GI's would have perished. In fact, it cost 81,000 American casualties, including 23,554 captured and 19,000 killed and 100,000 German casualties, killed, wounded or captured during that short battle."

With that said, the reader has a better frame of reference of whether or not to take your comment seriously -- at least they can now compare the realities of previous and current wars. Now, I understand that it's easier to just blather anti-war statements and expect everyone to agree, but I personally simply discount your statements because of the way you have framed it.

FG

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mcraig says on Aug 18, 2006, 15:52:

Dont compare the farc to the military men from these latin american countries , thats like comparing the class of the country to the thieves.

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mcraig says on Aug 18, 2006, 15:56:

Still dont get it do you Iraq a mess What do you want to do put Saddam back in power, the president that gased 10,000 men women an children of his country. A president that in his tenure has killed a million of his country men with rape rooms, torture rooms , keeping its country money to build mansions instead of feeding the poor. The biggest projects going on in Iraq is the clean water an sewage an electicity because the poor had sewage water to drink an kids where dying by the thousands every year because of diesease. IS THIS THE MESS YOUR TALKING ABOUT !

LIBERALS STINK !

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greg says on Aug 18, 2006, 17:50:

Fred Why compare the Iraq war to anything else? It is was it is and that is disaster! Over 2500 U.S. soldiers dead. Tens of thousands wounded. Probably over 100,000 Iraqis dead. Tens of thousands more wounded.
Who know how many thousands exposed to depleted uranium and other harmful things. Bush opened pandoras box and now the world is much more dangerous.

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greg says on Aug 18, 2006, 18:10:

One stat One quick stat about Iraq. Number of IED`s in July..2625
In January..half that. Does that mean things are getting better?

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juancegomez says on Aug 18, 2006, 18:22:

From what I've read... The retired Colombians fighting in Iraq have noticed that the place isn't exactly better off than Colombia, to put it lightly. In any case, since they're ex-military they are free to do whatever they want on an individual basis, so you won't hear me complaining (even if I still think that the U.S. shot itself in the foot with the whole Iraq deal).

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FredGarvin says on Aug 18, 2006, 18:22:

Yes Greg, I used the comparison (and provided a few statistics) to rebut your argument that Iraq is a disaster and to help you write more convincing arguments by giving you an example to support your "disaster" claim. Maybe I wasn't clear, but I was pointing out that perhaps then you think 81,000 American casualties over 1 battle during WWII was/is a disaster????

Point being, without that victory, how many more deaths would have occured? How much longer would the war have lasted? Would the coalition ultimately have been victorious without this?

Now we can take a critical look at the Iraq conflict with some perspective -- notice, I just don't say, "No it's not. Iraq is not a disaster"...

...By the way, the world HAS BEEN a very dangerous place prior to the current Bush administration.

FG

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greg says on Aug 18, 2006, 19:09:

To me 1 person dying in war is a disaster. Especially when it is a war that shouldn`t have been fought. Yea i think 81,000 men dying is a disaster when usually the guys running the show don`t give a damn about human life. I bet there could have been a lot less casualties in that battle on both sides. Look at what Truman did back then. Committing the single most heinous act of terrorism in history when he incinerated hundreds of thousands of Japanese, knowing that Japan was going to surrender anyway.

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FredGarvin says on Aug 18, 2006, 19:55:

"To me 1 person dying in war is a disaster."

The "dying" happening in the Iraq war is not necessarily solely from war itself. The dying is also (and perhaps more so) because of a larger, much broader regional change (religious, economic and societal), which is outside of many people's perception of "American Occupation" as the cause of the current violence. It's this regional shift/change (that is partly religious, economic and societal) which is and will be causing fierce resistence through violence and terror.

"Especially when it is a war that shouldn`t have been fought."

Shouldn't have been fought? Do you honestly think that oppressive regime's will not nor can be forced to change? In the big flick, globalization (information exchange) has been causing an INEVITABLE change in the Middle East as a whole (with or without the Bush admin's big boom happening there). Cultural revolutions are incredibly threatening to the mullahs and the leaders of state-run societies.

It's silly to think that there was NOT going to be inevitable violence in that region of the world --- and it's very likely that it was inevitable that the U.S. would need to intervene.

FG

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juancegomez says on Aug 18, 2006, 19:59:

Sorry for butting in again.... But a (small) number of people might be interested in this:

Next week's "Semana" magazine will carry a cover story about a number of former Colombian soldiers that went to Iraq following promises of high pay and benefits, as mentioned in this forum post, but actually ended up being literally SWINDELLED.

I'm still not going to complain about this because as I said they CHOSE to take that risk and had the right to do it, but hey...getting robbed still sucks, even if it's their own fault.

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greg says on Aug 18, 2006, 20:11:

Good To me there is not much lower you can go than being a mercenary.

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juancegomez says on Aug 18, 2006, 20:56:

I suppose it is But having to resort to mercenaries (especially in a country with so much potential manpower as the U.S.) for what is essentially glorified policing is also pretty low in this time and age, even if not as much.

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 19, 2006, 08:56:

Swindled mercenaries I look forward to read the Semana article. In the meanwhile, I can only fantasize... Colombians involved in the massacre of Iraq should be stripped from their nationality, or at least spend some time in Picaleña. I don't buy the argument that they are free to do what they want: If they commit crimes (under Colombian penal law) abroad, they should be tried for them. In this case, this is borderline treason.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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juancegomez says on Aug 19, 2006, 20:49:

Sr. Tertius Morally, I'd be inclined to agree with you.

My comments weren't meant to ignore the existence of any criminal responsibilities that they may individually deserve, just as a way of saying that their decision in no way makes me or anyone in Colombia responsible for their mere voluntary participation. I may personally reject it, but that's it.

Look at the case of Chile, for one: their government didn't even express diplomatic support for the war (something which we did, essentially paying shameful lipservice to the invasion but risking nothing), yet former Chilean soldiers were and are free to go there and sell their lives and integrity for money.

That may be morally questionable, yes, but it is perfectly legal for Colombians, Chileans, etc. to take that risk.

Additionally, I just don't think Colombian courts have much understanding of the concept of "universal jurisdiction", which is still rather new and controversial, so I doubt that any judge would allow the case to go forward.

So, stating up front that I'm no lawyer, I don't think there would be an easy way to sue them in Colombia for any possible offenses committed abroad.

Short of extradition requests or some Iraqi lawyers deciding to sue them / their company / the U.S. government about concrete incidents, of course, which is what I think is more likely to ever happen than arranging for a 100% Colombian lawsuit.

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Aug 19, 2006, 22:14:

The Colombians and Chileans should have joined the mercenaries in the French Foreign Legion. The FFL has 8000 members from 136 countries and a fair number of their efforts are focused on unilateral interventions in their former colonies. Hard to say which is the tougher duty: Killing defenseless Africans in the tropics or driving around and getting blown up in the desert.

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mcraig says on Aug 19, 2006, 22:43:

Fred just because you are a free loader on freedoms Doesnt mean that you have to dream up reasons this war is wrong.Coming from a father who spent spent two tours in Vietnam with a purple heart an a granfather that went to WW2 when he was sixteen years old an then got called back up in Korea you make me sick. Seeing liberals took the childhood of both my father an grandad an lost nearly 300,000 men getting a mission done an my father to a war that lost 58,000 men that was truely a ridicoulous meaningless war your number of 2,500 KIA is astonishing to lose so few brave men taking over two countries an giving freedome to 28 million. An then again for some reason you think freedom is free would you please look at how man american lives where lost for our freedoms an then give us your 100,000 (proven lie facts are 30,000)stupidity numbers.

An then let me guess you would of taken the Clinton admin attempt at foriegn policy which during the years of 1992-2000 Al queda trained 30000 terroist an bombed us on our soil an foriegn lands an did nothing. Now , you want to blame someone else for taking care of the problem that you liberals left. Clinton's policy in N korea that now leaves us with a country that has 10 nuclear warheads an then you want to blame someone else. Iraq did not live up to its obligations to the UN for taking over a country an killing innocent men, women an children for oil an land, he was given 12 years an 17 UN chances an its our fault for making him live up to his obligations, You have prolbems with history buddy there has never been freedom with out war that is why freedom is precious not just some granted gift you think it is because you didnt have to do anything for it.

Iraq a mess 15 of 18 provinces you have no violence , you have wiped out most of Al quieda an with the help of several countries we are building clean water plants, electircity grids , schools ,goverment offices. An somehow you call this a failure pick up a history book an read a little because your sense of the truth has failed you.An when your a super power it doesnt mean you use your power by sitting on your butt it means you help people an that is what we are doing.

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mcraig says on Aug 19, 2006, 22:47:

Morally questionable Morally speaking Saddam hussein gasing women an children because of there kurdish race is morally correct then an he shouldnt be stopped. Saddam Hussein murding one million of his countrmen during his tenure as dictator is morally just an taking him out of power is morally wrong. Maybe you should read the bible an figure out morality compared to religion an those who fight for the welfare of needy. The meak will inheritat the earth remember that!

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mcraig says on Aug 19, 2006, 22:53:

incarcerating japaneese when they where going to surrender Have you ever picked up a history book an read anything about WW2??? You do know there was two bombs dropped dont you ? The japaneese who bombed the US on its on soul to get America in the war also was giving the opportunity to surrender after the first nuke dropped an they did'nt want to surrender there fore we dropped a second nuke then they decided to surrender. The reason they didnt surrender after the first nuke was because president or dictator of Japan would not surrender if he was not aloud to stay in charge of Japan an its goverment.

gee whiz where to you get your facts from.

Now look what america started there a democracy with peace an individual freedoms.

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mcraig says on Aug 19, 2006, 22:55:

Haliburton does not stiff hired security forces just look at all the ones in Colombia do you think they would be there if they where getting stiffed an not paid.

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FredGarvin says on Aug 20, 2006, 02:13:

mcraig --- I think you have overlooked my point....

I used the example of the Battle of The Bulge in order to reject a previous comment that "Iraq is a disaster". Point being --- it's not a disaster.

"war your number of 2,500 KIA is astonishing to lose so few brave men taking over two countries an giving freedome to 28 million. "

This was exactly my point --- yet what do we see? Some stupid "Death Counter" at the bottom of the tv screen, seemingly the MSM's effort to strike a cord when it hits a certain level (remember that magical 2000 kia? --- it was rediculous and incredibly offensive to the brave Americans fighting there).

"An then again for some reason you think freedom is free would you please look at how man american lives where lost for our freedoms an then give us your 100,000 (proven lie facts are 30,000)stupidity numbers."

You might want to re-read my comments. Again, I pointed out that history shows just how costly war is -- the Ardennes Offensive was incredibly bloody. However, without coalition victory over the Germans during this battle, the ultimate outcome of the war might have been different (at the very least MORE lives were spared).

As far as the Clinton admin, and without getting into details, I'll just say that I agree with your assessment. But,

"Now , you want to blame someone else for taking care of the problem that you liberals left."

You are mischaracterizing me. Period. If you take a closer look at my writting, I am actually defending the Iraq conflict.

FG

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greg says on Aug 20, 2006, 06:41:

McCraig "Japan was already defeated and dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary" Words from Dwight D. Eisenhower. Admiral Nimitz, commander of the U.S. pacific fleet said the bomb was not needed as Japan had already sued for peace. The Japanese fleet was defeated and the U.S. was bombing Tokyo and other cities at will. Truman knew this. It is a myth that the bomb was dropped to keep more American soldiers from dying as an invasion of Japan was months away. A more likely reason was to keep Russia out of the war, and to scare them.
As far as i am concerned the dropping of the bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki were acts of TERRORISM!

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greg says on Aug 20, 2006, 06:46:

Question What two countries are free? Certainly not Afghanistan, where warlords control most of the country and the Taliban is making a comeback. Is it Iraq wich is on the brink of civil war? Where hundreds of thousands have fled the country? I guess my idea of freedom is a little different

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adrimm says on Aug 20, 2006, 08:34:

Nothing new Active service Colombian and other Latin American personnel were used in WWII, and sent to the Gulf. I believe the programmes were part of parterships with the US.

I know one Colombian guy whose company was in the gulf for 6 mos in the ninetys.

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:15:

Blanda Lex, no lex Juance: You are absolutely right. However, the distinction is important, and I'm sure you are very aware of it: None of these fuckers will ever get a day in jail, but that doesn't change the fact that their actions are morally abominable. Maybe it is time to consider new legislation.

P.S. Is this guy mccraig for real or the product of someone's twisted sense of humor?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:31:

apologize FredGarvin I posted you by mistake , it was was suppose to go to the guy that was calling Iraq an WW2 a disastour.

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:34:

Oh lord you do need a history class If you remember correctly , the reason we dropped the first bomb is because the projected number of american lives that would be lost taking tokyo from islands to the mainland was estimated to be 250,000. That really tells you again Japan was about ready to surrender right. The bomb was dropped to save those american lives an end the war. Once the first nuke was dropped the leadership of Japan did not want to surrender unless it was on there own terms there for the second bomb was dropped.

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:36:

As far as i am concerned the dropping of the bombs on Hiroshima An hitler was a great man is that what you telling us as well. The terroist attack was the attack on pearl harbor to get us in the war. Read history before you make yourself look foolish.

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:40:

afganastan over the Teleban leadership Lets see your point is your free when there stoning women on saturday afternoons at soccer stadiums because of accusations of miscondact without rebuttal , your idea is free is when your goverment faciltates an trains Al queda in your country, your free whne your goverment sales heroin around the world to buy weapons, your free when your citizens have no rights but muslim rights an if they break muslim law they are killed.

Compared to people being free an voting on there leadership man your idealogue is ridicoulous.

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:41:

An you have american retired officers in Colombia losing there lives fighting Farc. That means two countries are helping one another.

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:44:

go to jail for what protecting people ??????????? You have a screw lose dont you ? I mean since yoo have not given a drop of nothing for your freedom of speech while otheres have died for it then you allowed to call them criminals. get real

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mcraig says on Aug 20, 2006, 09:45:

Protecting oil lines so a democracy has money to run its goverment an give its citizens better public sercices is wrong an should be stopped , again join the real world.

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greg says on Aug 20, 2006, 12:06:

Mcraig I never said that either Iraq or Afghanistan were free before the U.S. invaded. But they certainly are not now! I didn`t know that retired U.S. soldiers were fighting the FARC. They must be as delusional as you are

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juancegomez says on Aug 20, 2006, 18:31:

Actually... ...the majority of them are mostly fighting coca** and not the FARC.

Which I think is far more delusional, personally, than if they were all actually fighting FARC per se. But you two carry on.

**Disclaimer: Evidently, "fighting coca" using fumigations often results in harmful effects to the environment and any living beings sufficiently exposed.

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juancegomez says on Aug 20, 2006, 18:33:

The Semana article's up This is it:

http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?idArt=96550

Here's the short version of the story:

Más de 30 ex militares colombianos estafados y atrapados en Irak
Bogotá, ago (EFE).- Un grupo de 35 ex militares y ex policías colombianos contratados para efectuar labores de seguridad en Irak fue estafado y sus integrantes están atrapados en ese país sin poder regresar por falta de dinero.

Según la última edición de la revista "Semana", los "mercenarios colombianos" llegaron a Bagdad en junio pasado contratados para prestar seguridad en el perímetro de las bases estadounidenses y también a ejecutivos norteamericanos, luego de ser contratados en Bogotá por una empresa.

Antes de viajar los ex militares fueron entrenados por personal estadounidense en la Escuela de Caballería del Ejército en Bogotá durante dos meses.

Algunos de ellos, cuyos nombres no fueron divulgados, aseguraron sentirse secuestrados, porque no tienen cómo costear el regreso a Colombia.

"Cuando dejamos nuestras familias y salimos de Colombia sabíamos a qué veníamos a Irak. Lo que nunca nos imaginamos es que esto era el horror", declaró un mayor retirado del Ejército.

"Queremos devolvernos a Colombia, pero no nos dejan. Cuando se enteren que hemos hablado sobre lo que nos están haciendo aquí, no sabemos qué nos pueda pasar. Pero la verdad es que la gente acá en Bagdad está desesperada", dijo un ex capitán.

Explicaron que aceptaron la misión seducidos por la oferta de ganar 6.000 ó 7.000 dólares mensuales, pero más tarde la cifra se redujo a 4.000 dólares y finalmente les dijeron que el sueldo era de 2.700 dólares al mes, que no pudieron rechazar porque ya habían renunciado a sus trabajos.

Sin embargo, aseguraron que estando ya en Irak, les advirtieron de que el salario era de 1.000 dólares mensuales y les retuvieron los pasajes de regreso, indicó el semanario.

http://www.lafm.com.co/noticia.php3?nt=13784

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Sr Tertius says on Aug 20, 2006, 23:17:

Serves them well Thanks for the article, juance. Greedy bastards got what they deserved. The worst part is that they are clueless. I imagined that people like Blackwater were no charitable individuals, but the level of brutality, if we are to believe the report of the mercenaries, seems pretty bad. Hopefully, this will discourage other people.

Now, I'm curious of one thing: Since when is the Colombian military lending its infrastructure to train mercenaries? Is it not enough that we are subsidizing the stupid war on drugs, so now the Colombian taxpayer also has to subsidize the military adventures of the current regime in Washington?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 21, 2006, 10:32:

My guess and only a guess Sorry to sound like I'm blaming the victim, but there is SUCH a huge demand for capable security personnel in Iraq that these Colombianos who are "trapped" there must be total bobos not to be able to think on their feet and get a new job offer. I wonder if none of them speak passable English, which is the only thing I can see that would hold them back.

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juancegomez says on Aug 21, 2006, 11:16:

Mr. Hollywood Thinking on their feet would definitely have helped them avoid this mess in the first place, surely, but once in Iraq I doubt that they can easily get out of their contract obligations, even if they tried to.

Sr Tertius:

I hope this serves as a useful lesson for anybody looking for job opportunities in Iraq too.

As for the other thing...it seems to be something that tends to be typical of Colombians (and others in Latin America and the world, I'm sure, but I've seen more cases in Colombia 'cause I live here):

You may quietly do favors for your friends and colleagues, even if they may be technically questionable or even illegal (seems like some retired Colombians soldiers already worked for both ID Systems and Blackwater, so they "pidieron un favorcito" from their former acquaintances in order to get to use those installations).

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 21, 2006, 11:56:

Contract obligations? Sounds like the "employer" has already broken the contract.

Believe me, in Iraq it's the law of the jungle. The meek shall inherit the dust.

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vladimiro says on Aug 21, 2006, 20:09:

If what the US says is true, If what the US says is true then why don't they call the draft?

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 21, 2006, 20:30:

Define your terms, Vlad? When you say, "What the US says", who is the one doing the speaking? There's no such thing as a monolithic US voice any more than "What Venezuela says."

Perhaps you mean what Bush or the Bush administration says?

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vladimiro says on Aug 21, 2006, 20:55:

Yes, I meant the Bush regime
Yes, I meant the Bush regime

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Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 21, 2006, 21:09:

Then there's your answer Bush and Congress can't/won't call up a draft because it would be the death of the Republican party's winning streak in US politics for the last decade. Post Viet Nam, nobody sane in the US will support a draft until invaders are landing on the Outer Banks.

Other than anything that involves fighting in Iraq, I think the worst job in the US Military right now is being a recruiter trying to convince poor fools to sign on.

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carlosnanez says on Sep 26, 2006, 04:34:

Iraq's Freedom As a Soldier currently fighting in Iraq, I can tell you that many of them are very happy that we are here and many now have medical services, schools and basic services like electricity thanks to us, yeah is not perfect but that is going to take time. One of the biggest problems this country have is "Ignorance" many of them haven't finish high school so is very easy for the enemy to brain wash them with promises that will never come true.
Just remember freedom is not free and someone is always making money on it.

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cali373 says on Oct 20, 2006, 12:14:

Confused? Whose freedom is this retired soldier fighting for? Was Colombia under threat of being attacked by Iraq? Is he their to assist in repelling an ocuppying force our of Iraq? I don't care if that chooses to be a mercenary, but please do not say it is for anyones freedom.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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greg says on Mar 31, 2007, 18:13:

What company Anyone know what company hired these guys. Haliburton? Blackwater?

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 1, 2007, 09:01:

Blackwater according to the report.

Check http://www.blackwaterbook.com/

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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greg says on Apr 1, 2007, 14:56:

Thanks for the link

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cali373 says on Apr 2, 2007, 14:34:

Career military Colombians are not exactly noble people. But these could be grunts that are there. "fighting for freedom in Iraq", Please tell me people did actually buy into this propaganda. Not even Haliburton is there for anyones freedom but for war profiteering. I mean, I could understand Colombians seizing the opportunity to make some money considering that the Colombian establishment has alwaya hindered progress in Colombia, but please make no mistake that these Colombians are not there for anyones so called "freedom" but for opportunity. I would do the same though so I am not critisizing them.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Apr 2, 2007, 14:47:

mcraig, you know there was a time when there were only 2500 killed in Vietnam, Korea, WW2. The war in Iraq is not over yet. Another thing that you don't see is that you are dishonoring your grandfather by comparing WW2 to Vietnam or Iraq. however I understand how that is possible as history is not a sexy subject in the U.S. I am sorry too hear that your father was in Vietnam, I am sorry to break it to you but essentially your father was basically there as cannon fodder. I would do some serious reading into the U.S. involvement in southeast asia and the failed policy there. You might see some parallels to the failed iraq policy. I am going to give you good advice as someone once gave to me. "Some day you have to start doing your own thinking".

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Sr Tertius says on Apr 2, 2007, 19:20:

I must side with Tinto on this That's why its never adviceable to draw inferences from or deductions to individual cases ("this happened to me, so it must be true to everyone," "this is generally bad, so it must be bad if you did it"). It is, unfortunately, the modal reasoning for the most vocal people in PBH.

That being said, it is clear that mccraig is more interested in preaching than in reasoning. I already learned to ignore that kind of nonsense.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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vladimiro says on Apr 2, 2007, 19:37:

To paraphrase William Lind on war: There has been a flicker of lilght lately in terms of tactical improvements. However, on the strategic level the US is fighting to support a Shiite regime closely aligned with Iran, its most potent local opponent. Every tactical success merely moves the US closer to giving Iran a new ally. Operationally, also, the US has been duped by Iraq's Shiites and the Iranian Ayatollahs into fighting their civil war for them.

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cali373 says on Apr 2, 2007, 22:13:

Since when do we have to be born in a certain time to be an expert or at least have enough knowledge about a historical event. Tinto, I always expect you to defend the status quo but at least provide something meaningful instead of expressing your emotions. However I do agree with you, The ignorance is "Unbelievable!"

Throw me into a discussion with the average U.S. american about the historical context of wars involving the U.S. and I will break them because Americans don't know SHIT about history they are just concerned about the price of gas and stupid shit like Anna Nicole Smith. I am sorry if I offended mcraig but he really walked right into that one and perhaps it will lead him opening up a book or two and prevent more americans for falling for the so called justification of these "wars of liberty" since WW2. How does this sound "I am a sorry for those americans that were treated as cannon fodder in the unjustified wars involving the U.S." Does that sound better.

And frankly while the courage of servicemen is very honorable and I respect it, under no circumstances does the fact that someone is a serviceman or veteran make them a better american than any other american. It takes a lot more to provide positive meaning to the U.S. society.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Apr 3, 2007, 20:15:

This has been bothering me all day ( I gues because I have a conscious). I have to apologize to mcraig for my insensitivity. I guess I could have worded it better in order to generalize my point instead of directly pointing out his family members. I never intended to directly insult anyone. And Tinto, Thank you for pointing out that out.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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goin_south says on Apr 3, 2007, 20:54:

sr tertius we are not worthy,
we are not worthy,
WE ARE NOT...WORTHY.

Where do we go from here?

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