Remains of murdered Colombian politicians recovered

imdarkangel says on Sep 9, 2007, 22:56:

according to yahoo news
FARC, Colombia's largest rebel group, that Colombian President Alvaro Uribe pull troops out of a rural area the size of New York to create a safe haven for talks.

i hope they dont do no " safe haven" for these terrorist

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Rikito says on Sep 10, 2007, 06:45:

People need to understand that FARC is not a revolutionary group, they are not a political organization, they are not fighting for the social good of Colombia, and they are not fighting to change the democratic system to a socialist or Marxist state.

These animals are not even terrorists. They are criminal’s period. They kill innocent people, they rape, they murder, and they steal what is not theirs. They have no political forum. They grow, produce, ship, and sell, illegal drugs that ruin the lives of other people. Don't argue that if there was no market they could not sell their illegal products. They sell to anyone anywhere in the world. They sell to children, poor people and weak people.

FARC is an acronym for Fucked-up--Assholes--Running--Cocaine. They have no redeeming social value. What have they ever done for the people of Colombia? What? Nothing! They only take. They make criminals out of young, ignorant, poor people.

What good have they ever done? They cannot negotiate anything because they have nothing of value to negotiate with. Chavez will be as ineffective as anyone else because to do so he will have to shut down the cocaine and weapons routes that go through Venezuela like water through a screen.

What has FARC done...nothing! Once they had a purpose, goals and values. Maybe not mine, but they had beliefs. Now, they are shit murderers.

I feel better now...just like you do after a good dump!!

It is not life that matters, but the journey.

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kalder says on Sep 10, 2007, 09:01:

The film 'La Selva de Cocaine' depicted the FARC as church bombing, raping, coked-up bandits officered by swaggering Che wannabees.

It certainly had the ring of truth about it.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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kalder says on Sep 10, 2007, 09:26:

I googled it as well- and couldn't find it. It doesn't appear on the Internet Movie Database either. But it certainly exists- my wife bought it in the Colombian market in Seven Sisters and we watched it recently. It's a very bleak film indeed- the anti-hero is a womanising paraco who's paid to hunt down a FARC platoon who'd murdered a narco's daughter. Very grim.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Mike19 says on Sep 10, 2007, 18:45:

GREAT EXPLANATION RIKITO....I agree

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Sr Tertius says on Sep 11, 2007, 17:07:

What explanation?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kalder says on Sep 12, 2007, 00:52:

The frank one. Above.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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podborski says on Sep 12, 2007, 01:40:

it's a waste of time kalder, some people have trouble with reality

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kalder says on Sep 12, 2007, 05:07:

So it would appear pod. Those near-apologies for that Dutch girl confirms that: 'She may have wanted to murder people to find a little purpose and fulfilment in her life, but, gosh she's so pretty and high-minded and idealistic that I can't help feeling for her etc., etc.'

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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billyb says on Sep 12, 2007, 14:15:

Yeah, take that Pod, you unhappy, uninteresting person you :))

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podborski says on Sep 12, 2007, 15:56:

well he's right you know, I am unhappy right now, my goddamn hardwood floors are lifting up and I am pissed.

However, in general I am quite happy, especially when I am in Bogotá, sitting on a patio with a drink in hand, just watching the pretty women go by *sigh*

What makes me laugh is this supposed criticism "you are always right on any subject".

Well of course I think I am right, if I thought I was wrong I would change my mind wouldn't I?

jajaja it cracks me up. I'm waiting for cassini to tell someone: "I like you because you think you are wrong all the time".

I have to admit, that WOULD be an interesting person.

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Sr Tertius says on Sep 13, 2007, 01:10:

Kalder and pod talking about reality...? That's a new one. I remember something about a fake quote being presented as real, and someone else talking about cutting zeroes in currency. Maybe you guys want to join GIB or whatever his name is now on a discussion on "guerrilla strongholds"?

So, what was being explained in that supposedly "frank" explanation? That "FARC is an acronym for Fucked-up--Assholes--Running--Cocaine"? Yeah, that's a useful and "frank" factoid. Bring it up in parties: It'll make you popular.

Back to the topic (of course, if the Masters of Reality allow), the necropsy was finished and a report to the public should be available today. Apparently the bodies were in such condition that their identification was easy. On a related issue, Chavez has been quite the vedette with his participation in a possible exchange (backed by Sarkosy) and the possibility (faint, but possibility anyway) of catalyzing peace talks with FARC. The amount of attention and good press he's got now in Colombia is indicative of how much public opinion wants an end to the war, no matter in what shape or form it comes. And no matter how unlikely it may be.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kalder says on Sep 13, 2007, 02:22:

Compared to the extravagantly fascinating creature that is the French intellectual, I am indeed an uninteresting person. How could I possibly compete with all that animated gesticulating and burbling about the ultimate absurdity of existence? No cloud of Gauloise smoke will ever enshroud me in an intriguing manner. Nor do I possess a beret to wear at a captivatingly louche angle…

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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kalder says on Sep 13, 2007, 02:27:

No, for a truly interesting person you must look to such individuals as earnestly pompous campus leftists. Their blend of patrician disdain for us ordinary folk and their blushing schoolgirl infatuation with murderers is truly spellbinding.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 08:50:

That's a very good response, kalder. If it exists.

"Your highness, when I said that you are like a stream of bat's piss, I only mean that you shine out like a shaft of gold when all around it is dark."

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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kalder says on Sep 13, 2007, 10:42:

You're pow wow, right?

"Oo iz dis pow 'ow? I zink 'e iz , 'ow you say, fascist, like kalder?"

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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podborski says on Sep 13, 2007, 10:49:

"That's a very good response, kalder. If it exists."

jajaja man t!

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podborski says on Sep 13, 2007, 10:57:

"What goal for the life ! Drinks and girls !"

At times that does sound good, I must admit.

But truth is that's just the reward for hard, stressful but meaningful and enjoyable work, creating things that are beautiful and at the same time that employ people and create profits (hopefully) that go to pay taxes.

From those taxes are taken the salaries for pompous intellectuals who sit around apologizing for dictators and terrorists.

I'm quite perfectly happy with my goals, at least I can look at myself in the mirror without wincing.

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 12:35:

Wouldn't that depend on whether my eyes were open?

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 12:40:

No. But someone more pompous and intellectual should be around any minute. A pox on all killers.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 12:43:

A quick Google shows that the person who said that quote was the German playwright Hanns Johst. I hate not knowing stuff like that.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 13, 2007, 12:59:

And Browning is an odd choice since the Germans make/made some world class firearms. Maybe he meant "Whenever I hear 'culture' I reach for a book of poems by Elizabeth Barrett Browning." High praise indeed

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 13:01:

I'm sure Cassini attributed the quote to Göring, who in 1933 probably thought he would be controlling Utah pretty soon.

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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billyb says on Sep 13, 2007, 13:13:

Or he could have meant "whenever I hear Culture Club, I reach....."

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 13:24:

Whenever I hear Culture Club, I retch...

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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podborski says on Sep 13, 2007, 15:13:

"When I hear the word culture, I reach for my Browning" ?

I thought it was a reference to the firearm, makes some sense to me that way.

Some people go to ridiculous lengths to 'protect their culture', even though they can't define 'culture', or explain how someone could take it away, so it usually sounds like xenophobia to me.

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Man Tequila says on Sep 13, 2007, 15:59:

It is a fire arm. The quote was made in a play for Hitler's 1933 birthday, and was later used by Hermann Göring, in accordance with Godwin's Law (in any Internet discussion sooner or later someone will likely bring up the Nazis or Hitler).

Aunque no me creas/ si me lo propongo/ lograre olvidarte/ porque a fin de cuentas/ no soy tan cobarde./ Y termino todo una de estas tardes/ no sera dificil buscar algún sitio donde refugiarme/ donde nunca mas vuelvas a encontrarme. (Polo Montañez)

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podborski says on Sep 14, 2007, 10:48:

oh crap I guess I am going to have to read wiki on Godwin's law now huh?

I dunno if I have time to learn so much stuff just to keep up here : (

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podborski says on Sep 15, 2007, 06:51:

I don't hate all intellectuals, just the morally bankrupt ones who try to justify using violence as a means of realizing their 'utopian' paradises (read "dictatorships").

They have to justify the use of force as the average person will not voluntarily accept their idiotic ideas.

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podborski says on Sep 15, 2007, 06:51:

double post

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Cerealkiller says on Sep 15, 2007, 07:21:

Back to the OP. I read that experts suspected bodies had been cleaned up and their clothes had been changed to make it impossible for forensics to find out where they had been killed.

I also read the average number of shots each person received was around 8.5 or something of the sort. It is a shame that nothing concrete came out of the investigation, I mean the question of whether there was someone else other than the FARC remains open.

So I guess this is going to be one of those "palacio de justicia" type things where we won't ever know what really happened. I am sure in a couple of months or years, some guerrilero will come up and say "this is how it really happened" and then someone else will show up and give a completely different version of events.

How can there ever be peace when affected families are not given any information? People cannot just forgive and forget when they dont know what happened...and it isnt just this, it isnt just the farc...But this shows Farc's lack of will to negotiate. If there was indeed someone else, why wouldnt they just leave the bodies as they were?

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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billyb says on Sep 15, 2007, 17:09:

CK, it also says that some of the bodies showed they recieved impacts from both above and below, which belies suggestions that they were caused by crossfire and instead points to them being shot while on the ground. Probably they were the coup de grace.

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podborski says on Sep 15, 2007, 17:13:

I don't know much about the story, but it sounds incredibly hard to believe that ALL the hostages were killed 'accidentally' in crossfire.

Uh, wouldn't even one of them maybe survive?

If not, how many guerrillas were also killed in such a fierce gunfight? 200?

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Robert Jorge says on Sep 15, 2007, 21:19:

8.5 hits per body on average, as "accidentally" being caught in crossfire? Bullshit. They were not caught in crossfire. They had to have been shot at on purpose. By who, and what the real story is? - That is the million dollar question.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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billyb says on Sep 15, 2007, 22:09:

Well they were in FARC hands, so the by whom is pretty much a given, but under what circumstances is the real mystery.

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juancegomez says on Sep 16, 2007, 11:08:

Cerealkiller: I share your other feelings...but one big difference with the "Palace of Justice" situation is the availability of information. The public had access to a lot more information at the time, just by looking at news reports and TV footage alone. Whatever anyone thinks, there are certain facts that cannot be seriously questioned, even if other pieces of the puzzle are absent.

In this case, the amount of information we have are mere scraps, in comparison. Only the 11 bodies and a couple of claims, nothing else.

Links to articles (in Spanish) about the results of the tests:

http://72.35.86.196/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?idArt=106270
http://www.elpais.com.co/paisonline/notas/Septiembre162007/informe.htm...

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Cerealkiller says on Sep 16, 2007, 11:40:

Well yeah, but i mean in regards to the victims... Here we know they were killed, and how...we dont know under which circumstances, just like those people who dissappeared. Youre right when you say its different, but the principle is the same...from the relatives' standpoint, you cant possibly expect them to put it behind when there are still so many questions unanswered.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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poco says on Sep 18, 2007, 21:13:

Quote: Chavez has been quite the vedette with his participation in a possible exchange (backed by Sarkosy) and the possibility (faint, but possibility anyway) of catalyzing peace talks with FARC.

Really, quite the vedette? More like give orders to his allies.

FARC / Chavez, not much difference except one uses oil and the other drugs as a useful way to finance war and/or political agendas. Socialism is lower form of Communism and Chavez needs room to grow. Like his mentor, Castro.

There can not be peace talks with the FARC. There are legitimate political parties in Colombia and should the FARC be allowed to maintain their organization it will be tantamount to creating a Colombian Hezbollah and the “war� will last another 50 years.

BTW: I heard someone saw Ingrid, alive. Then again, I heard Pable Escobar was also alive.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Sr Tertius says on Sep 19, 2007, 16:52:

"FARC / Chavez, not much difference except one uses oil and the other drugs as a useful way to finance war and/or political agendas."

Let's see: Chavez: democratically elected, popular in his country, recognized by the international community. FARC: self-appointed "army of the people," unpopular in their country, deemed a terrorist organization by most countries. Am I splitting hairs with this distinction? Or rather the fact that they are both vocally anti-US interventionism trumps any other possible distinction in your opinion? In such case, you'd have to put 80% of the world in the same bag with FARC and Chavez.

As for Chavez being allied with FARC... well, I've been about a year asking for evidence, and so far, not ONE thing.

This conclusion "There can not be peace talks with the FARC," does not follow from either one of these premises "There are legitimate political parties in Colombia and should the FARC be allowed to maintain their organization it will be tantamount to creating a Colombian Hezbollah." The first premise is true, the second one... VERY tenuous; as I said though, neither one yields your conclusion.

The question is not whether or not FARC should be allowed to maintain its organization, but HOW to dismantle it. We've tried to do it by force over 40 years, and look where we are. There are alternative approaches. I think regional talks with individual "frentes" (a sort of divide-and-conquer approach) combined with policies that would make them irrelevant (e.g., a comprehensive agrarian reform) should be tried. It probably won't be easy or quick, so in the meanwhile the government should do everything possible to at least find some solution to the most atrocious aspects of the war, like the kidnapping of civilians. On that regard, this government has not done shit, except for ineffectively yelling slogans.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Sep 20, 2007, 05:53:

"As for Chavez being allied with FARC... well, I've been about a year asking for evidence, and so far, not ONE thing."

funny..I seem to remember a big fuss a while ago about a big FARC leader being spirited out of a nice beach house in venezuela to Colombia. It caused a bit of an international furor, guess you didn't hear about it?

Or maybe Uribe knows more about who lives in venezuela than Chavez does? Wouldn't surprise me.

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billyb says on Sep 20, 2007, 07:27:

I don't know the final resolution of the case, but weren't there two Colombian intelligence agents that had infiltrated the FARC who were lured to Venezuela, where they were captured, interogated and tortured in a Venezuelan military barrack before being killed and their bodies dumped in Colombia. Does anybody know what the outcome of that case was?

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podborski says on Sep 20, 2007, 17:27:

.......the silence is deafening..................

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juancegomez says on Sep 20, 2007, 17:29:

SrTertius. The one problem I see with regional talks is their being instrumentalized as part of FARC's general strategic plans, if we aren't considerably lucky and/or cautious.

billyb: I'm pretty much in the same situation, as in remaining ignorant of the final outcome.

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Sr Tertius says on Sep 20, 2007, 18:28:

"seem to remember a big fuss a while ago about a big FARC leader being spirited out of a nice beach house in venezuela to Colombia. It caused a bit of an international furor, guess you didn't hear about it?"

You caught me on that one Pod! Good job! Never really heard of it. But a guy who goes by my handle went out to discuss it here:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/baffled-by-the-current-crisis/

and here:

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/venezuela-posses-the-strongest-a...

Read it and come back to me if you want to discuss the specifics. But get used to the "deafening silence," because I happen to have a job and a life that keeps me away from PBH, sometimes more than 12 hours (imagine that!). The irony is, I'm still waiting for many responses to questions left unanswered, but the poster has no qualms in posting the same bullshit over and over and over... (e.g., http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/the-farc-express-support-for-the...)

Now, this is one that I didn't know: Granda lived in a beach house in Venezuela? Can you substantiate that?

BTW, isn't it interesting that if the Venezuelan government doesn't go after this guy, that's taken as clear cut evidence that they support FARC, but if Uribe let's him go, that's a gesture of good will?

Billyb: That's a very interesting piece of news that received very little follow up. The facts, however, are not the way you present them. More on that later...

Juance: Let's suppose that FARC indeed take advantage of regional talks in some areas... what would be the worst thing they could get that would be most against the nation's best interests?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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juancegomez says on Sep 21, 2007, 17:09:

SrTertius: Hard to predict...I would imagine a certain amount of FARC avances in those areas and increased attacks in nearby ones, for example.

Why? Because the regional dialogues may well imply at least a reduction of military and police activities against FARC there, depending on how things develop.

That would be perfectly fine if it brings us realistically closer to peace, but if the war continues on a national level...I doubt it will have any lasting, positive effects.

Then again, other factors I'm not considering could make it work, that's entirely possible too.

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billyb says on Sep 21, 2007, 18:19:

Sr. T, I would be very interested in hearing an alternate version of what happened in that case, to tell you the truth I am a bit skeptical, but so far the version I gave is the only one I have seen in the media (disclosure:I don't read Voz, well only for entertainment purposes).

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 21, 2007, 20:10:

I'm still mystified why there's even a whisper of mystery over this thing.

Let's look at the basic facts:

FARC, dressed in fake Gaula uniforms, kidnapped these people. They then held them as hostages for a long time. Then the people turned up dead, riddled with bullets.

And the mystery is what?

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juancegomez says on Sep 21, 2007, 21:57:

The question is whether FARC killed them of its own accord or if it happened during combat with X party (or parties).

Either way, FARC's responsibility remains the main factor behind their death, but the finer details are still unclear.

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podborski says on Sep 22, 2007, 06:14:

man if I ever commit murder, I hope juanc and sr t are on the jury.

I doubt they'd believe the truth even if they witnessed it.

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juancegomez says on Sep 22, 2007, 08:37:

Unless you know something nobody else does, podborski, I don't see your point.

But then again, it's not like it matters...

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Sr Tertius says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:44:

Billyb: Here's all I know about this case: http://72.35.86.196/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?idArt=103555

The known facts, according to article, are that Colombian military intelligence officers went into Venezuela without the consent of Venezuelan authorities. It is clear that they were tortured and assassinated, but it is unclear that whether it was in a military barrack of somewhere else. Also, the bodies where not "dumped" in Colombia, but were officially sent to Bogotá.

It seems that torture was conducted by FARC in cooperation with Venezuelan officials. But we'll probably never know the details of this incident, because it appears to be quite embarrassing for both the Colombian and Venezuelan governments. From the Venezuelan side, obviously their agents shouldn't be collaborating with FARC and shouldn't be torturing foreign military personnel. From the Colombian side, military personnel shouldn't be crossing the border into Venezuela without the consent of the Venezuelan government. On the latter, it is particularly embarrassing that the Colombian government has been actively against the Venezuelan thesis of "hot pursuit" of guerrillas in Colombia when chased by Venezuelan authorities; now Colombia appears to be doing their own not-so-hot pursuit. So, it's not surprised that neither Venezuela nor Colombia are making a big fuzz out of this.

If there are any updates on this case, I'd greatly appreciate them.

Pod: The problem here is your inability to distinguish healthy skepticism from whatever it is that you like to believe without evidence, If you were accused of murder, you bet your ass I'd judge on the basis of available evidence, so you should be happy that I'm on the jury. On the flip side, your certainty that you can judge without evidence would scare me.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 22, 2007, 10:55:

Personally, I don't really give an damn whether the FARC executed them 'in cold blood' or whether they were 'accidentally' killed in combat. The responsibility is still the FARC's and anything else is really a distraction.

That said, it seems statistically IMPOSSIBLE that 11 of 11 would have been "accidentally" killed.

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juancegomez says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:11:

Well, the combat itself would be the "accident" if it actually happened.

Not the resulting deaths and the multiple bullet wounds on the bodies, which sure don't look "accidental" to me at all either. I'm not even remotely contemplating that.

Again, I think it's still FARC's fault first and foremost, regardless of the details.

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billyb says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:16:

I agree that both countries have a vested interest in sweeping this under the rug as both don't want to answer certain questions. I think that like real story of so many other incidents in the country, this one won't see the light of day for many years.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:25:

Juance, so if I read you correctly you're suggesting that a fight started "accidentally" and then the FARC had to execute these folks?

That's a really fine moral distinction, I guess. Finer than my mind can contemplate.

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billyb says on Sep 22, 2007, 11:32:

I read Juance as saying that the FARC is responsible regardless of how the fight started, then again he doesn't need my help to clarify his comments.

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juancegomez says on Sep 24, 2007, 11:23:

Still, billyb, I think you understood my main point, so thanks anyways.

Mr. Hollywood: I am not trying to "suggest" what really happened, essentially because I don't know anything that isn't already public knowledge.

I'm only speculating about one possibility among many, but that doesn't change FARC's ultimate and inherent responsibility, in my eyes.

Even if starting a fight with someone else wasn't in FARC's immediate plans, that doesn't mean that they (or anyone else, for that matter) "had" to execute them, nor does it reduce their responsibility.

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