Recent studies suggest that Colombia does not have Real Bilingual Schools

elreydelostrolls says on May 16, 2007, 21:39:

Damm, what a surprise! I never would have imagined that this was true.

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griffbos says on May 17, 2007, 11:04:

hmm there are not alot of native english speakers teaching there, many teaching english are native to Colombia. It is my understanding to teach in the public schools onne has to be native to Colombia, or Native english speakers can get work in privtae schools or the Univ. my friends who have studied english in school have never seen a native speaker in the class rooms. One of the issues today is the Government has changed the requirements to teach in a Univ on has to have a teaching degree or a Master degree, to teach at what in the uSA we call high school level many schools are required to hire only those that have a BA or BA and TESL cert. only at the lower levels is the requirement only TESL/TEFL cert. even there the high end schools want sometime of degree these days the degree it can be any subject(ie accounting/dance/music ect doesn't have to be teaching or english)

the private laguage insitutions can hire anyone with a TESL cert, be it native speaker or not. There is a great demand for native speakers but many still consider Colombia dangerous to travel. There is a great demand of those wanting to learn which is why i think the Government got tougher standards as it is not cheap to study english.
I don't like that Native english speaker can not get jobs in the public schools but I also understand why it is that way.

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coffee beaner says on May 17, 2007, 13:41:

So are my chances good? I have dual-citizenship (US&Colombian) and I'm thinking about teaching English in Medellin, my friend in Medellin tells me that you can just take a test at EAFIT University and they will let you teach English. Not only do you teach but they will pay for any career in the University while you teach at the school. By the time I move down I will have an AA in Liberal Arts and probably will take something at a University while down there... would I have any chance of teaching?? I wouldn't mind teaching High School level but would rather teach kids. Any opinions?? thanks!

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tannedincali says on May 17, 2007, 20:43:

English in schools sucks. I didn't attend a bilingual school but I know many people that go to the university after 6 or more years of English classes and don't know how to ask a question. I think English is a must in a globalized world and the government should take care of this. It is not the same if you learn from a non native English speaker, but I guess salaries and security here don't attract many people to come .

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 17, 2007, 23:11:

Beckloud, would you please cite the source of your original post in Spanish? To me it does not sound like a "recent study" but just an opinion of a reporter.

No real bilingual schools in Colombia? Tell that to all those people graduated in excellent bilingual schools in Bogotá, Medellín, Cali and Barranquilla; people who not only completed the full academic curriculum required by the Colombian Ministry of Education but also came out speaking native or near-native English.

Are ALL bilingual schools in Colombia really and truly bilingual? NO, of course not. Lots of them are owned and run by people who just want to make money and the bilingual part is just a thin veneer of few classes of English in the week and the justification for charging sky-high matriculas, pensiones and all the extras.

The best and most prestigious bilingual schools in Colombia have been there for a long time and have been highly successful. How, where, why and by whom have the real bilingual school been defined as in the original post?

Yes, you need to be a qualified teacher to teach English in Colombian schools, but that is nothing particular to Colombia. That's how the schools are in Europe too. To teach English/German/French/Italian/Whatever it's not enough to be able to speak the language, but you have to have the degree from a teacher's college or accredited university to prove that you can teach. The same applies to mathematics, history etc...

I know personally lots of Colombian teachers of English who may have a slight accent but will still be highly successful as teachers, while a native gringo fails to transmit his/her language skills to the students.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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Miguel_Clavo says on May 17, 2007, 23:19:

Those Silly Colombians....Imagine, them requiring their English teachers to know HOW to teach English, and not just speak it....=)
...whats this world coming to, anyway!!!!???? =)

Just my opinion...

Miguel_Clavo =)..aka, DragonSlayer..2-0..Colombia es pasión!

"I would rather die living life, than to live a dying life."........ Oh, and my PM is always ON. Great Bumper Sticker: "Home of the Free, Because of the Brave"

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lpdiver says on May 17, 2007, 23:26:

When I returned... to the United States to take custody of my daughter I was working shift work and obtained the services of a Japanese "au pair". Nozomi was a graduate student and had studied English for twenty some years.

I have no doubt that her command of the English language is far superior to any that I will ever obtain. However, she could not understand and converse with anyone here. It took her about a year to obtain some profiency approaching intermediate to advanced.

She can write circles around me.

This phenomenon was a cause of disagreement between my fiancee and my self. SHe wanted me to pay for English lessons in Aruba. But their English is pretty much useless in the states.

Where is cowboy when I need him to chime in. His paisa and mine share a similar view of Mexicans and their "estupid" Espanol.

I share cowboys opionion, Gee I can get food, lodging and sex with my unarguable horrendous Spanish. I'm getting there.

In our house we are falling into the typical pattern of Spenglish. It stems from laziness in learning sufficient vocabulary.

t

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on May 17, 2007, 23:28:

oops double post

"cook some rice!"

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kat1 (Moderator) says on May 18, 2007, 01:34:

The majority of the teaching staff of the Colegio Gran Bretaña in Bogota are native English Speaker, the classes are taught in English http://www.cgb.edu.co/

engage brain before opening mouth

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Cerealkiller says on May 18, 2007, 01:54:

There are many schools in Bogota that are indeed Bilingual. I went to 3 bilingual schools in Colombia as a child and they were all fine, We had American, British and South African teachers as well as Colombians who had gotten their degrees in English Speaking countries. I remember as very young girl, maybe 1st grade or something, we were forced to speak english in recess, it felt like a nazi camp. After a while, I came whinning to my mom and started complaining in English, she thought it was a great idea and from then on I was forced to speak English at home.
In addition, where are these recent studies? I dont see any references...just someone's definition of what bilingual means...and the "colombianos, no se enganen a si mismos" bit, thats sounds waaaay un-academic to me.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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dayita says on May 18, 2007, 07:19:

That is a lie. I am Colombian, i have never lived in USA, and i can speak english. All my english classes were taught by native english speakers, and like me all my friends from school speak good english, soooo i don't know where you got that information from..I guess is just about finding the right school, is true some schools tend to call themselves Bilingual when they are really not.

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Leeroy says on May 18, 2007, 08:47:

Hmm I am a high school teacher in a "bilingual" school in Bogota.

Approximately half of our classes are taught in English, and all students by 6th grade can hold their own in an English conversation with more or less no problems (albeit not with 100% accuracy!).

While most of the teachers are Colombians, many speak (and teach) in English. There are also more than "2 or 3" native English speaking teachers, from Britain, Canada, the US, South Africa, etc... In Secondary, off the top of my head, there are probably about 30.

Although the English speaking staff speak to the students in English (and vice versa), Spanish is still the default language of the school (for administration, cafeteria staff, etc...). Thus, while the school calls itself "bilingual", I am a little wary of the term. There is, in fact, a little controversy at the moment as to whether we are immersing the students in English enough.

The fact is, though, that by the time all of our kids leave 11th grade, they will all be near-fluent in English.

Just my 2c

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griffbos says on May 18, 2007, 09:55:

hmm Leeroy , there are a number of good english schools in Colombia, I have a few friends who have never left Colombia and speak decent english they studied in private schools . Coffe Beaner, what I have been told is to teach legally at the Univ level one must have a Teaching degree ie BS/BA or a Masters in any subject matter, they also look for a TESL or TEFL certification you going to need a work permit to work and when they certify your permit you have to summit your degrees if you do not meet the requirements then you will not get approved to teach at that level that is my understanding of the process, if someones palm can be greased to look the other I would not know.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on May 18, 2007, 10:06:

UC, hang out with me next time in Cali and I'll show you plenty of Colombians who can speak reasonably good English. You just haven't had the exposure.

Cheers,
Desi

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe
they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

"I have opinions of my own, strong opinions, but I don't always agree with them."-President George W. Bush

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aztec says on May 18, 2007, 10:14:

Still have yet to meet any Colombian who can speak English. KingOfTheGringoFools, you are joking are either you lead a very sheltered existance.

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Leeroy says on May 18, 2007, 10:58:

El programa nacional de bilinguismo I quote from the Ministerio de Educacion:

"El ideal de tener colombianos capaces de comunicarse en inglés con estándares internacionalmente comparables ya no es un sueño, es una realidad y sólo podremos llegar a cumplir los propósitos establecidos si contamos con maestras y maestros convencidos y capaces de llevar a los niños y niñas a comunicarse en este idioma."

All part of the Programa Nacional de Bilinguismo:

http://www.mineducacion.gov.co/1621/propertyvalue-30973.html#115174

It sounds a little ambitious to me!

Furthermore, it is silly to propose that everyone of school-leaving age have B1 English - the vast majority of Colombians do not and will not need any English whatsoever to lead happy and successful lives. This probably includes most of the kids at our school, but it doesn't stop everyone being very impressed that all the kids leave speaking English...

Knowing English is a status thing as much as anything, it implies that...

a) You have a good (read: expensive) education.
b) You travel to the states/Britain, etc... (i.e. You Have Money)
c) You do business with foreigners (i.e. You earn lots of money)

The above points do not apply to the vast majority of Colombians.

(In my experience, Colombians have a bit of a strange relationship with the English language. While many of the upper-middle classes do speak a bit, they are often afraid to ("Me da pena!!" they wail...) - and when communicating with a foreigner will only resort to English when they absolutely have to. My old flatmate lived in Australia for 4 years (and came out, like everyone, speaking with a fluent American accent). She speaks English fluently, but I lived with her for 6 months and she never spoke a word to me - it was Spanish the entire time.)

It's not just here, I've seen the pattern repeated elsewhere. Relatively poor countries deciding "We need to learn English!" as if it is the panacea, the sudden quick-fix to all economic and social woes that they have. The reality is that children from a poor/rural background have more pressing priorities than mastering the Present Perfect Continuous...

Still, as long as it continues, there will always be a market for folk like me!

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juancegomez says on May 18, 2007, 13:38:

Well.. While I did go to a "bilingual" school (and a relatively decently priced one back in the day, if anyone's wondering...no abusive "bono" required) and most of my former classmates have a reasonably good understanding of the English language, I think that the general picture is still less than rosy, for the most part.

In my limited experience, most people I've met at different universities and in the labor market still react with fear and anxiety when the subject of English comes up.

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JMCana says on May 18, 2007, 13:59:

Depends I got my first shock of the Bilingual schools here in Colmbia when at a small party a 9 year old girl started conversing with me in perfect English. Now, that I have been in Colombia awhile, I found that she is the exception. But when someone of high school age speaks to me in English I ask them where they study. Some are very good and some are very bad. The proficiency seems to be more the student and their home life than the school. I know of more than one home where the children are required to speak English inside the house so they can practice.

Recently I accompanied an English teacher to a class she holds for company executives. She is Colombian. She asked me to attend to allow the students to hear someone different. They did recognize a difference, especially because I use expressions like, "on the other hand" or "In the same vein".

In speaking with a public school student in my small pueblo they said that not only did their school not have an English teacher, but that it was short teachers for everything. However I could not teach, even for free, because I am not Colombian.

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griffbos says on May 18, 2007, 16:40:

JMCana your right which s said, I have a friend in Barranquilla his siter i a teach in a fairly nice public school and he teachs only 2 days a week in a very poor public school( they are waiting for the government to send them a english teacher) I have visited both schools, and I have o say I liked the poor school and would love to work there even for free, but it is illegal since I am not native Colombian is what I was told. I understand the public schools are getting Government money so they jobs are for only Colombians, but I find it interesting places like Chile and Peru are now hiring companies to teach english in the public schools and they must us Native English Speakers to teach. I have a question for you do you do any private tutor work, I ready to make the move there and wondering how the market is for private tutors or group of no more then 3 students.

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aztec says on May 19, 2007, 05:45:

The way... ...things are going no one living in the USA will need to speak English.

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webmanco says on May 19, 2007, 09:07:

"pereza es la madre de todos los vicios"
Viva el Lenguaje Español.

Words bilingual and not bilingual people should not use on a full Spanish conversation

ok
yeah
bye

when writing in Spanish I usually rather use the word in English e-mail instead of correo electrónico, "pereza es la madre de todos los vicios", I need to start using the long Spanish version.

UTC should be the ESL Director, he seems the type of guy who gives hard time to people wanting to improve somehow their English.


Viva el Lenguaje Español.

(I really hate it when women get their panties all bunched up their butt, they can get so cranky!) Poor butt happy

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elreydelostrolls says on May 19, 2007, 11:11:

"UTC should be the ESL Director, he seems the type of guy who gives hard time to people wanting to improve somehow their English."

I think he'd be the last guy to give such a person a hard time. The people he gives a hard time to are the monolinguals who have no interest in learning any other language other the one they happened to be learn when they were kids. Of course that language, whatever it is, is always superior! Compared to any other people on earth, Colombians have the least interest in other countries or their languages. Next to Americans of course.

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adrimm says on May 19, 2007, 11:15:

Of course there are excellent immersion and billingual schools.. I know of several Colombians who have gone on to do undergraduate and graduate degrees in English-speaking countries and succeeded quite handily.

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webmanco says on May 19, 2007, 12:40:

Colombians have the least Colombians have the least interest in other countries or their languages

Dead wrong.

If that were true they would not be leaving Colombia. Plus the lack of interest on a language is not a lack of interest in other aspects of different countries.

(I really hate it when women get their panties all bunched up their butt, they can get so cranky!) Poor butt happy

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Leeroy says on May 19, 2007, 13:11:

Colombians have the least interest in other countries or their languages?

Clearly you haven't been to Spain!

Fine, Colombians may not be the most internationally aware people on the planet - but the same could be said of a lot of nationalities. At least here in Bogota you can find sushi bars. In Spain, for the Spaniards, if it is not Spanish, written in Spanish and made for and by Spanish people, they shun it. Colombia is (by comparison) positively enlightened.

Look around in Bogota - there are plenty of signs and names written in foreign languages (okay...in English), "The Rock Garden" and "The Irish Pub" in the ZR, or the "Oil Filter's" (sic) sign that I see every day on the autopista. If anything, I think things with foreign names attract a kind of prestige here.

I do wonder, though, if Colombians leaving Colombia automatically equates to "taking an interest in foreign cultures". Surely the poor ones do it to get work, and the rich ones do it as a means to show off/have a holiday...

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colombian_caro says on May 21, 2007, 16:45:

Can we really blame colombians? I live in the US, a country where we can find hispanic and Colombian people almost everywhere and I was still called Mexican from Colombia!! Now, Colombia does not have that many Americans living there and that should be a reason why they do not speak English or are interested in other countries which I think is not true. And as for the bilingual schools, I went to a bilingual school in colombia, only the principal and the english teacher spoke English (the English teacher came during the middle of the year, before we didn't have one at all) but I had the best time of my life so I don't regret going to a "fake" bilingual school.

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CaritadeAngel says on May 21, 2007, 18:36:

I agree with Leroy The Spanish have a wierd attitude. But so do the Brits.

"Nolite id cogere, cape malleum majorem."

"I hope I never say anything worth quoting".

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Leeroy says on May 22, 2007, 09:36:

CA - I'm British! But then, I have a weird attitude I suppose...

Livefreeordie - I can introduce you to a couple if you like!

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CaptainHowdy says on May 22, 2007, 11:04:

TESL, TESOL, etc. How long does it take to earn a certificate in TESL, TESOL, etc? I've read a little about them but I can't find out how many courses/classes there are or how long it takes to earn one of these certificates....

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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Leeroy says on May 22, 2007, 12:51:

Depends on the certificate. The "entry level" certificate is called a CELTA (there is another, less popular one, called the Trinity TESOL). You can do it intensively for 1 month, or part-time for 3-6 months. The idea is that it mixes teaching theory with practice (you teach observed classes every day). Although it is technically assessed, almost no-one ever fails. The British Council do it in Bogota, I believe. I don't know how much they charge, but I imagine it would be around the US$1,000 mark.

The CELTA alone (with no other qualifications) will get you a job in places that are either desperate or not very good.

After a CELTA comes the DELTA, you need a minimum of 2 years' experience doing TESL before you can apply for that. The DELTA is a lot more heavy going in terms of linguistics, pedagogy, etc... It more or less qualifies you to have a senior academic position in a language academy - still not a great prestige by any means!

If you have a Bachelors degree in something (especially language related) AND a CELTA, you will be much more employable.

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CaptainHowdy says on May 22, 2007, 13:12:

Thanks, Leeroy I was just wondering about this. I have a BA in Speech Communications and am completing my 9th year teaching in public school. I will be visiting a Colombiana next month and she has asked me if I am interested in teaching English in Colombia. I told her I'd take a look at some schools and talk to them, but I'm not dying to teach in Colombia. If I have a good time this summer, I might then consider it. I was just wondering how long it would take to get a foreign language certificate. Thanks, again...

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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Leeroy says on May 22, 2007, 13:16:

You are more than qualified - believe me! A CELTA would probably not be necessary.

Getting a work visa is a completely different ballgame, of course.. As I understand it, it is hard to get work in the small academies - if I were you I would try in universities, bilingual schools (and International House and the British Council).

Part of the (painful) visa proceedings is getting your certification notarised and apostilled, by the way.

But then, I suspect that other members of this forum know more about this than I.

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CaptainHowdy says on May 22, 2007, 13:25:

The father of my amiga works for some branch of the embassy. I'm guessing this might help make it a bit easier...I'm not wanting to teach in Colombia...yet...I'll know more come July!!! Thanks, again....

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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beckloud says on May 23, 2007, 20:10:

Dayita have you ever taken an official TOEFL iBT test ( by ETS) Well, I don`t think so! take it first,then, show me your score,and after that you may or may not claim that you SPEAK some English.

beckloud

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escuelaguy says on May 23, 2007, 21:00:

do they? "Colombians have the least interest in other countries or their languages"

I'd hedge my bets on the Democratic Republic of Congolians.

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Leeroy says on May 24, 2007, 05:53:

For anyone still interested, there's a large "bilinguismo" supplement in El Tiempo today

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CaptainHowdy says on May 24, 2007, 08:45:

Bilinguismo Cool, Leeroy. Was it a good supplement? Worth posting? Tell us about it.

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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Leeroy says on May 24, 2007, 10:13:

Although I don't have a copy right in front of me, the gist of the articles relates to how an educational (ahem) "revolution" began in December 2006 in the Colombian educational establishment. The governmentally formed "Programa Nacional de Bilinguismo" has created the "Plan Nacional de Bilinguismo" - which says (more or less) what targets the Ministerio de Educacion should reach, and how it can do it.

In short, all kids leaving grade 11 (i.e. 18 year-olds) will leave with English European Framework level B1.2 (more or less Pre-Intermediate). That's the idea.

The problem is the complete lack of qualified teachers to achieve this. They are lacking in two ways, firstly there are simply not enough teachers with a level of English good enough to really be teaching it, and secondly they are not trained in the ways of effective language teaching (teaching (and learning) a language is not as simple as explaining vocabulary and grammar).

To counter this, many universities are focusing on churning out more English teachers for primario and bachillerato schools (how, exactly, is unspecified). Not included in the report, but what I read elsewhere, was that universities would be giving mandatory English tests to all students before they enroll (regardless of what subject they will be studying) - I'm not sure when this begins (or whether it has begun already).

So, oddly, universities will be training people to speak English and be English teachers - but they will only let them in if they speak English. Which seems a bit like a vicious circle really....

Anyway, the reason given for this current obsession with bilingualism is, apparently, to make Colombia "more competitive globally" - a population with good English skills will (apparently) have better access to global markets.

Colombia isn't the first developing country in the world to decide that speaking English will be the solution to all of its problems - and I am sure I am not the first to privately and publicly doubt the integrity of such arguments. Will the fact that a peasant coffee farmer in rural Colombia knows how to say "How are you?" mean that capuccino drinking socialites in (say) California suddenly decide to ONLY start drinking his coffee (as opposed to, say, coffee from Java?

Of course not - the vast majority of Colombians (i.e. the working class) will not benefit one bit from speaking English. Well, it might make emigrating a little easier...

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elreydelostrolls says on May 24, 2007, 19:51:

I can't imagine anything stupider than the above proposal. Do they really think that they are going to get the flow of tourists that Costa Rica does? Or the outsourcing that India gets? They would be better off doing what they do best, legalizing all the illegal drugs and then supplying the world's demand for quality cocaine and reefer.

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CaptainHowdy says on May 24, 2007, 20:47:

Theoretically, you're right!! But, the legalization of cocaine and reefer is probably not going to come to fruition, so increasing the number of Colombians who speak English seems to be Plan B. It does seem as if it would be a step in the right direction towards increasing tourism. Since you can't force the learning of Spanish on the tourists, why not just learn English? How many times have we read on this site gringos ask what problems they're going to face because they know no or little Spanish? It's not a problem if Colombians learn English. Now, I'm not saying this is the solution to all the problems in Colombia, but it does seem to be a step in the right direction. Now, how they bring it all about is a whole other can of worms.....

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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elreydelostrolls says on May 24, 2007, 21:19:

You can't even convince the Colombians living in the US to learn English. Good luck convincing the ones in Colombia to learn. Maybe they ought to be learning Mandarin or Hindi so they'll be able to speak the languages of the world's next superpowers.

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Leeroy says on May 25, 2007, 05:01:

I'm not sure thaht 'Colombians not speaking English' is the key factor contributing to Colombia's general lack of tourism.

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CaptainHowdy says on May 25, 2007, 10:58:

You're right! Not speaking English is not the "key" factor contributing to Colombia's general lack of tourism, but for those considering a trip to Colombia, it is yet another obstacle to overcome. They can eliminate obstacles one obstacle at a time. Remember, a journey of thousand miles begins with a single step!!! And Colombia has about a thousand miles to go to clean up its act and attract tourism. This could metaphorically be the first step.

Teaching preteens the things they need to know!

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