Re: my earlier post on culture / violence

Mr. Hollywood says on Jun 30, 2005, 19:44:

Define "culture" Rubiazo, buddy, I think your question is total nonsense because Colombian "culture" in the sense I think you're using it (ie. music, art, literature, dancing, family over money, etc) is not the cause nor the effect of the violence here. So you could eliminate one, hypothetically, without touching the other.

Violence here is based on thre things that I can see: first, the enormous black market profits to be made here in cocaine and other things. Hard to call that culture. Second, simple crime caused by poverty and lack of positive opportunity, again, hardly something to celebrate as culture. The other thing I see, historically, was a culture of violence based on provincialism. I don't think that's really applicable now, though.

I'm familiar with what's happened in NYC in the last 10-15 years and have seen that happen in San Francisco, too. But I think it's more economic than anything else. Before the dot-com boom, you could afford to be a struggling artist/musician in San Francisco (or NYC) while working as a waiter or something, but stock market and real-estate run-ups have made those places simply impossible for an artistic sub-culture to hang on. It's cute to blame Giuliani because he closed some strip clubs and disneyfied Times Square, but let's face it, that was hardly the most interesting "culture" in NYC. I think it give Giuliani way too much credit to hold him entirely responsible for the changes in NYC.

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Caballista says on Jun 30, 2005, 20:50:

Rubiazo and Culture. 1- The word culture comes from the Latin root colere (to inhabit, to cultivate, or to honor) in general, it refers to human activity; different definitions of culture reflect different theories for understanding, or criteria for valuing, human activity.
Culture is traditionally the oldest human character, its significant traces separating Homo from Australopithecines, and Man from Animals, though new discoveries are blurring these edges in our day.

Culture: The shared values, traditions, norms, customs, arts, history, institutions, ansd experience of a group of people. The group may be identified by race, age, ethnicity, language, national origin, religion, or other social categories or groupings.

Archaeologically a human population that shared a similar economic life style, activities and beliefs which can be recognized through the identification of residual remains and artifacts which were left behind by the group.

Do you think it is possible for us to leave our culture behind?
I don't think so.

Informal poll??? be serious.

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kernow62 says on Jun 30, 2005, 21:13:

Can a cheese leave its culture behind?

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caslug says on Jun 30, 2005, 21:15:

maybe, if the violence is "eliminated", you'll see a increase in capital investment leading to jobs, hence income for ALL colombians. With more income & stability, poor artistic kids who couldn't affort an education can go to school and learn to be poets, writers, singers, dancers, painters, etc., instead of worry about there next meal or paycheck, they can ponder their next artistic creation.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 30, 2005, 21:17:

Hollywood and Caballista Hollywood, you have no idea how the music industry works. Let me break it down for you.
99.99999% of ALL money involved in the music industry is drug money. Actually sometimes they don't even bother with the money stage. I've played in some bands who just get straight up paid in the white stuff.

In order to play live with a band and be economically viable, you need to play most or all days of the week. Who do you think is filling up that nightclub in Bogota at 3am on a Monday or Tuesday? Ward and June Cleaver?

The music scene in NYC is defunct now becase ALL THE FINANCIAL BACKERS ARE IN JAIL for drug-related offenses and/or money laundering. Music and organized crime have always gone hand in hand, at least since the Industrial Revolution.

I can GUARANTEE you that if they ever succeed in reducing crime in Colombia to a level of that of the USA, it will be at the expense of music, dance, art etc.

Also, somebody working full time as a waiter hardly qualifies as a professional musician or actor. To be successful at any of the arts you need to dedicate your whole life to it, as in at least HALF your waking hours, or you are really just wasting your time.

Caballista, you're getting bogged down in semantics. When I say 'culture' I mean what people generally take culture to mean, that is, the fine arts, and things like food and drink, fashion, etc. Things that people enjoy and that makes them what they are.

I really don't think anybody realizes just how bad it is here in NYC or how far it's fallen even in the past 10 years. The real estate thing is certainly a part of it; that is something that started in the early 1980s with Reagan and Koch's policies, and with that first big development craze. To me it's all part of the same system which has turned us into a nation of overworked overtaxed CULTURELESS (in every sense of the word) wageslaves.

Do we really have it 'better' in the US than in Colombia? In my books NO WE DONT! Once again, I'm not glorifying one particular country, Colombia has problems that are very real. But I'd like to think I'm not the only person left on Earth who cares about things like art and music and dancing more than material wealth or personal security.

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utopiacowboy says on Jun 30, 2005, 21:34:

Americans love violence but Colombians love it even more. You want to find a place that hates violence and insecurity - Canada! All they care about is whether they're safe - nothing else matters. I must admit that every so often I wish this place was more like Colombia - there are plenty of people I'd have whacked for $50 a head.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Rubiazo says on Jun 30, 2005, 21:48:

uc I put someone in the hospital in Canada once cuz he owed me $20, fucking bastard thought he was gonna get away with it. I figured the satisfaction was worth losing the $20.

And I think you put the nail on the hate of why I hate Canada so much, and why i'm NEVER going back there. Americans I think have become a lot more like that since 9/11. It's like it turned the whole country into a bunch of whining pussies. I say that if they are willing to give up their freedom for security, they deserve neither!! (was that Ben Franklin, phreak, i can't remember, somebody like that!!)

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Miguel says on Jul 1, 2005, 01:57:

Ha Ha Ha/Ja Ja Ja "Hollywood, you have no idea how the music industry works. Let me break it down for you.
99.99999% of ALL money involved in the music industry is drug money. Actually sometimes they don't even bother with the money stage. I've played in some bands who just get straight up paid in the white stuff."

Rubiazo, at times it appears that you were "overpaid". The music business is not as you describe it. Sure, drugs are here and there, but hardly the driving force you attempt to portray.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 1, 2005, 07:26:

Ahem ""Hollywood, you have no idea how the music industry works. Let me break it down for you. 99.99999% of ALL money involved in the music industry is drug money."

That will come as news to my numerous friends and relatives who make their living in the music business. I think you're confusing your 80's or 90's NYC latin club scene with the larger world of professional music. If your scene can't exist except as a parasite to a bunch of thugs and mobsters, good riddance.

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Rubiazo says on Jul 1, 2005, 08:14:

Roofus Canada has the same laws as Colombia does regarding citizenship. The condition of being a Canadian citizen is not renouncable.

Hollywood: I've never seen a band paid in coke here in the US (although it certainly happened all the time to friends of mine here) Everytime it happened to me was in CANADA! And it wasn't just latin clubs either, it was with all the rock and jazz and r&b bands too. I visited NYC for the first time in 1994 and didn't live here full time until 1997, catching only the last few decent years here.

You really need to open your eyes man. Come here and I'll show you. ALL music is either caught up in drug money or government money. Personally I'd much rather be closer to the drug scene than the government any day. I consider it the lesser of two evils.

Here it's not just a few drug dens that have closed. Live music is almost completely gone from the city. The Village has been reduced to maybe 3-4 good blocks, but filled with amateurs. Most serious musicians shun that scene now. Orchestras are being disbanded from left to right across the city. Music programs are being cut from schools. Even Broadway has taken a major hit. Even the venerable CBGBs will be gone in a couple months.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 1, 2005, 08:23:

I don't have a dog in this fight but... Sorry, man, but I have both friends and family who are professional musicians and they manage to do so without being directly involved with drug money. I don't argue with you that there's a history of mob involvement in the record and radio business, but there's plenty of ways for a musician to make a living without working for the goombahs.

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cali373 says on Jul 1, 2005, 08:45:

So there is no culture in Canada? Canadians please advise?

Smile if you are a thinker!

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Rubiazo says on Jul 1, 2005, 08:48:

Canada is definitely the world's biggest cultural vacuum. It is also the place with the LEAST respect for the arts.

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bufalo says on Jul 1, 2005, 09:27:

I think peole are getting caught up int the semantics as well. I fI understand correctly, by ending the violence and putting a lot of laws into affect, colombian "culture" will change. Forget buying arepas hot off the grill in the street or stopping on the roadside to get some food. the yipao´s won´t be waht they were (they are already starting to bite) due to overcautios people. rivers, lakes, etc will only be private access. It´ll probalby end up, well, like the states where people carry around antibacterial wipes in case, god forbid, their hands get dirty. No 30 people to a Willyz, nope, maximum 4 and with seatbelts. Music in the streets? Uh-uh disturbing the peace. Can you imagine how the carnival in Barranquila would be if it was run by people from gringolandia?

"If you don't like it - lump it, take it down the road and dump it." - Archie Bunker played by Carroll O'Connor

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 1, 2005, 10:03:

That's a harsh view There's a lot of middle ground between the wild-west of Colombia today and the overly-litigeous society in the USA today. Personally, I'd settle for simply being able to travel ANYWHERE in the country without having to worry about taking a 6 month hiking/reindoctrination trip in the selva with my FARC pals. And small businesses being able to operate without paying AUC protection money would be nice, too.

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Albatross says on Jul 1, 2005, 10:21:

Great Art is Often a Child of Violence If you include repression and discontent the initial post then the answer is that a surprising amount of great art was a child of violence, repression or discontent.

Music:
Mozart - Requiem
Beethoven - 5th and 9th Symphonies
Wagner - Der Ring des Nibelungen
Blues (by definition)
Early Jazz (Armstrong, Ellington, Gillespie, Parker, Davis, Coltrane)
Dylan, Hendrix and the incredible wealth of music from the late 60's - early 70's that was heavily influenced by the Vietnam War, the Civil Rights movement and drugs.


Movies:
Casablanca (or just about any other Bogart movie)
On the Waterfront, The Wild Bunch, Apocalypse Now
The Godfather (I & II)
High Noon
Star Wars, Alien, Aliens, The Terminator, T2, Blade Runner
The Sand Pebbles, Papillion, Bullitt, Midnight Cowboy
Fistful of Dollars, Good Bad and Ugly, Dirty Harry, Magnum Force, Pale Rider
Hud, Cool Hand Luke
Rosemary’s Baby, The Shining
Gone With the Wind, The Wizard of Oz
Bugs Bunny, Daffy Duck, The Roadrunner, Snow White, Pinocchio
Notorious, Psycho, Rear Window (or anything else by Hitchcock)

Literature:
Hemmingway
Dostoevsky
Tolstoy
Steinbeck
Dickens
Hardy
Tolkein
Joyce
Camus
O'Neill

The Holy Bible

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Rubiazo says on Jul 1, 2005, 10:36:

The repression vs art question This ia a very deep subject. It would seem to me that adversity DOES promote creativity and comfort and weath and fame erode it. But I would also tend to think that past a certain point repression can be very detrimental to art.

It is also very difficult to define exactly what is a repressive environment. Trujillo in the DR , for example, was a brutal dictator but he was huge on the creative arts, especially on the national forms of it such as the merengue, and this was at at time where it was considered very vulgar by the majority of the populace. Ironically, 'La Camisa Negra' is now banned in the DR but 'Candy Shop' isn't!

I think you really have to walk a fine line with these things. And if a society is producing great works of art, for god's sake DONT MESS WITH IT.

An example of conditions not considered to be conducive to art being VERY conducive was the South Bronx in the 1970s. One thing kids in that neighborhood had was lots of FREE TIME. Along with that they got exposed to a lot of culture because of the immigrants moving IN to the neighborhood (always somebody desperate enough), and the fact that the rest of the city was only a train ride away.

They didnt have material resources but they had a very easy time borrowing or stealing what they needed to accomplish their creative wills. The sound system was stolen from a local shop and carted around in someone's uncle's van. The electricity came from illegally tapping into street lamps and other municipal power sources etc. The shit surroundings and the danger combined with the perceived lack of opportunity provided the inspiration!!!

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caslug says on Jul 1, 2005, 12:44:

Art needs patron.. And patrons need to have a money/job. Those things tend to come from stability(in relations to violence). No one is advocating relugating EVERY LITTLE thing in LIFE, we're talking about reducing the violence from guerilla war and drug war in COL. Maybe if the guerilla war ends the peasent/farmers can leave the shanty town in the city and go back to their little villages. Notice in colombian cities on the weeknight is DEAD, no bars, clubs, anything is open after 11pm. Maybe if there security and economic prosperity, PEOPLE would go out and frequent bars and then the bar owner would hire a BAND, hence encouraging ART.

IF ART DOESNT have PATRON, because th PATRONS are running scare or POOR, you'll have NO ART. Where would Van Gough be if his brother THEO was poor or dead(from violence), where would Mozart be if Vienna was a wastland of violence and there was no rich patron PAYING to write operas. Rich business people have ALWAYS funded art as a way of BUYING their way INTO CULTURE. Go to any art opening, poetry reading, museum, there's a long list of rich folks supporting it. Espeically in the Musuem or ART "business". Businesses are the one giving MONEY to organization that encourage art. My friend work for the Kearny Street Workshop(promoting asian-american artist) as the Director. Most of his time was spent "beggin(ie,fund rasing)" for dollars from business and rich folk of SF.

Sure i like to go to art exhibit, musical, musuem, etc., BUT i want to get their in one piece because the city is SAFE for violence criminals. I rather not have to dodge muggers and robbers on my way to a musuem because the city is a haven for violence, for the sake creativity.

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Rubiazo says on Jul 1, 2005, 13:56:

Which cities? In Bogota there is no problem going out any day of the week to bars and clubs, or restaurants, for that matter, at any hour. They are ostensibly supposed to close at 3am but they don't seem to pay any attention to that. No problem finding live entertainment on those days either. Nor is there in Rio or Sao Paulo or Caracas or any South American city. Only in Canada and the US out of anywhere I've been does everything have to wait for the weekend.

A lot of you guys are very naive about the music business. That 99.99% was not an exaggeration. I've been doing this for over 15 years now and have yet to see an exception to it actually. ALL the nightclubs launder money. ALL the musicians unions are mobbed up. And there definitely aint too many of the working crowd paying to see live bands at 3am on a weekday in a Bogota nightclub! Being a musician doesn't mean you are a criminal but it does mean that criminals are who supports you.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 1, 2005, 14:45:

99% "That 99.99% was not an exaggeration. I've been doing this for over 15 years now and have yet to see an exception to it actually. ALL the nightclubs launder money. ALL the musicians unions are mobbed up."

Since when were nightclubs or, for that matter, union musicians, remotely close to 99% of "the music industry"?

Maybe we move in totally different worlds. Among my professional music friends I count 1 multiplatum artist, another moderately successful but long-careereed jazz singer, a guitarist for hire who plays with people like P.J. Harvey, Hole, etc. Several movie industry arranger/composers, and a violinist for a major US symphony. As far as I can tell, none of them are mobbed up or counting on drug money to pay their bills.

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Miguel says on Jul 1, 2005, 14:47:

15 years hey? 40 and counting for me; yo bro, at least you could do before talking out your ass would be to preface your statement with an "in my opinion"...anyway, keep on gigging.

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caslug says on Jul 1, 2005, 15:18:

Rubiazo.. i know criminals DO frequent.. SOME bars/clubs with music. My cousin was two-bit singer at those type of clubs, and you're right on many nights(weekend or weeknights) we would see gangster enjoying the music. Heck, they buy me drinks too. BUT at the end the night the club owner paid my cousin in cash($75/song) not 1/8 of pot. LOL! ALso, i've sat down helping negoiate payment with singers/band for events. I NEVER has ANY of the bands/singer request getting drugs in lieu of a check. Drug is good to get you happy but it doesn't feed you or pay your rent. And if you smoke pot, it makes you hungry so you'll need money to buy munchies!

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Rubiazo says on Jul 1, 2005, 20:22:

It was usually not an 'ask' thing, it was more 'well, I havent had time to hit the bank, so I'll just pay whoever needs cash out of the float, and the rest can get paid in coke.' My hand was always first up for the cash. Some guys took the coke cuz they could sell it for more than the money we would get. Some just took it and put it straight up their nose.

When i first started as a teenager in Canada, the bikers were still very big (they still are in some areas.) These MFs would come in to a huge club with like 800 people packed to the gills and buy the WHOLE PLACE a round, or pay for open bar for the next 10 minutes and people would swarm the bartenders! They would also constantly send up drinks and joints to the band on stage, and if you didnt accept their hospitality they didnt take it too well. I learned to fake drinking shooters so that I wouldn't get too bombed to play and sing.

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