Rape case clouded by soldier's immunity

roloenNJ says on Sep 3, 2009, 03:30:

It is a shame how this F got away with rape. It only shows the weakness of the Colombian Govt, and Uribe should be asking the US to bring this guys back for trial if the US still wants to have their bases in Colombia or DEA, ICE, FBI, NSA Agents operating in Colombia.

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suizo says on Sep 3, 2009, 03:37:

They should at least have investigated thoroughly...diplomatic immunity, what a joke!

Crackheads suck!

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 05:29:

Under the Vienna Convention of Diplomatic Relations of 1962 and the Vienna Convention of Consular Relations 1963, the immunity provided to persons is accordant to their rank in a diplomatic mission or consular post. The level of immunity is commensurate with the need for immunity in the performance of their duties. For example, diplomatic agents and their family members are immune to all criminal prosecution and most civil law suits.

Administrative and technical staff members of embassies have a lower level of immunity. Consular officers serving in consulates throughout the country have an even lower level of immunity. Members of an embassy's service staff and consular employees are immune only for acts performed as part of their official duties.

Why were these two grunts who were little more than security guards given full immunity ?

Was this child-rape conducted as a part of their official duties on the Airforce Base ?

Exactly why was this child alone (without parental supervision) in a room on a military base in Colombia ? - Somebody's head should be on a platter for this.

Do these headlines ring a bell ?

New US rape allegation in Okinawa
BBC News, Tokyo
Curfew for US troops in Okinawa
20 Feb 08 | Asia-Pacific
US apology over 'rape' in Japan
13 Feb 08 | Asia-Pacific
US marine held over Japan rape
11 Feb 08 | Asia-Pacific
Okinawans reject anti-US option
19 Nov 06 | Asia-Pacific
US employee jailed for Japan rape
24 Mar 06 | Asia-Pacific
US to cut Okinawa troop numbers
29 Oct 05 | Asia-Pacific
US serviceman arrested on Okinawa
04 Jul 05 | Asia-Pacific
US serviceman convicted of rape homicide

Americans would have more credibility overseas if they at least made an effort to show people that they weren't so f***ed up.

You allow two of your military staff to skate after they've raped a 12 year old girl and everybody sees that you are allowing a major miscarriage of justice to take place in order to protect American paedophiles. That's bad enough when you do it at home when the crime is against one of your own citizens, but when you do it overseas and the crime is perpetuated against a citizen of another country, it makes that country's blood boil.

Rapes by military personnel in Japan caused outrage and protests in an ordinarily ordered society where such outpouring of anger is extremely unusual.

Rapes by US military personnel in Colombia are going to get people killed.

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miamimike says on Sep 3, 2009, 05:29:

And they wonder why the FTA has been held up,,,Here's but one good example and with good reason

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska

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FreakyG says on Sep 3, 2009, 06:09:

"Americans would have more credibility overseas if they at least made an effort to show people that they weren't so f***ed up."

Hey, If you cant see there is a difference between a country''s people and it's military, then you are not living in reality. Do you not think there is outrage from the North Americans over this? I dont think anybody should be above the law no matter how "important" they are. As far as these rapes are concerned -yeah these guys heads should be on a stick. The united states military does not have the cornerstone on this type of behavior and many of these types of crimes go mostly unreported unfortunately.

Thank You Eversomuch, and then some

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suizo says on Sep 3, 2009, 06:15:

FreakyG

The problem is that such negative publicity of military personnel always affects the country's people reputation - if you like it or not, but military personnel overseas represents "the country" they come from. However, no one ever said that all Americans were bad guys because of these two scumbags. It just illustrates that US authorities should have a vital interest in investigating such allegations thoroughly.

Crackheads suck!

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 06:29:

Hey Freaky, I personally don't give a rat's arse about the stated difference between a nation's military and their people - this is down to the actions of the US government in protecting two paedophile rapists from due process.

And the last time I looked the United States Government was OF THE PEOPLE, FOR THE PEOPLE, BY THE PEOPLE.

Every time the US government does something like this, they paint a great big bull's eye on every single gringo walking the streets of Colombia.

Blowing away a gringo in protest of decisions like this is something that might become damn TEMPTING in downtown Medellin and Bogota.

But you're right - don't blame the Gringos. Blame the US government and their military. Because like you pointed out - the Gringo Military in Colombia is completely separate and unrelated to Gringos living in Colombia.

I'm sure that's exactly how the Colombians are going to see it the next time a little girl is raped by Gringo servicemen.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 06:55:

Azunoman. I don't know how much you know about Diplomatic Immunity but it's pretty self explanatory.


Diplomatic immunity renders criminals who are deemed to have committed their crime during the commission of their duties IMMUNE TO PROSECUTION FOR THEIR CRIME due to their status as DIPLOMATS !


THAT MEANS THAT THEY ARE GRANTED IMMUNITY FOR THE COMMISSION OF THEIR CRIME. ANY CRIME.

Put another way.....

THEY ARE IMMUNE FROM PROSECUTION.

Perhaps this clarifies:

THEY WILL NOT BE PROSECUTED FOR THIS CRIME.

Or......In words of one syllable:

THESE MEN WILL NOT FACE A COURT FOR THEIR CRIME.

To use your own words: "the DOD just covers up and protects US military personnel"


Because that is exactly what they have done.


Now that you're all caught up - welcome to reality.

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suizo says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:02:

timeofchange

what you say is not correct.

Diplomatic immunity means that an individual cannot be prosecuted by the justice system of a FOREIGN country. The individuals home country CAN ALWAYS prosecute. The question is if they will do that. They usually do if it is a serious crime.

Also, a home country can waive immunity and allow a foreign country to prosecute. As far as I know this has never happened.

Crackheads suck!

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:07:

Suizo, please don't state that i'm not presenting the full picture.

A full statement of the facts has been presented by the story listed above.

I would refer you to an extract of the media article that states the following:

QUOTE

In Colombia's D.A. regional office in Melgar, where the investigation was initiated, El Nuevo Herald learned that the office had ordered the arrests of both.

The arrests were not carried out because the D.A.'s international office ordered a halt to the investigation because the men had diplomatic immunity, said María Cristina Torres González, director of the D.A. section in Melgar.

UNQUOTE


There you go. Complete picture.


Please avail yourself to all information relating to my posts prior to criticizing my posts.

Thankyou

Timefor.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:15:

Azunoman. The US authorities in Melgar where an investigation into this matter was launched, were advised by the International arm of the District Attorney's Office that no investigation into this matter would be launched due to the Diplomatic Immunity of these servicemen.

I don't mean to burst your bubble - but these criminals will not be prosecuted.

Wake up and smell the coffee. They're gunna skate.

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suizo says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:18:

Timeforchange:

Well yes and this completely complies with the concept of diplomatic immunity: Colombia cannot prosecute because it's a foreign country, therefore the Colombians could not execute the arrest warrants. The US will hopefully investigate further and then prosecute. Again: Saying "they are granted immunity for the commission of any crime" (implicating that they will get away with any crime) is FALSE. They can be prosecuted, but by their home country only... Sorry bro, but you first learn about the legal backgrounds before posting...

Crackheads suck!

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theflatline says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:24:

The will be tried in the US, and the punishment will be harsher. Leavenworth is not a nice place. Plus, easier to have a nice life in a Colombian prison if you can a little money coming in.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:32:

Hey SUIZO: Don't call me bro - that implies some kind of DNA link between us. That offends me.

Please make yourself familiar with the Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations prior to embarassing yourself further.

Article 32 of the Convention states the following:

The immunity from jurisdiction of diplomatic agents and of persons enjoying immunity under Article 37 may be waived by the sending State.
Waiver must always be express.


In the absence of a waiver from the sending nation the following applies:


Article 39 para c states the following:

When the functions of a person enjoying privileges and immunities have come to an end, such privileges and immunities shall normally cease at the moment when he leaves the country, or on expiry of a reasonable period in which to do so, but shall subsist until that time, even in case of armed conflict. However, with respect to acts performed by such a person in the exercise of his functions as a member of the mission, immunity shall continue to subsist.

This is confirmed with the extract I previously quoted to you. It appears you might not have understood this extract the first time, so here it is again.

QUOTE
The arrests were not carried out because the D.A.'s international office ordered a halt to the investigation because the men had diplomatic immunity, said María Cristina Torres González, director of the D.A. section in Melgar.
UNQUOTE

Please have a grown up read this to you prior to your commenting further.




Timefor

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suizo says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:43:

Bro (I certainly would never imply a DNA link between you and me)

You can quote as many articles as you want, it doesn't make your statements correct. They are FALSE. Obviously, it's no use argueing with you.

Understanding law does not mean to copy-paste articles...

Enough said. Have a nice day.

PS: Ignorance offends me as well by the way.

Crackheads suck!

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theflatline says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:44:

Well, it says it MAY be waived. They more than likely got the guys out of there before mob rule took over and strung them up in front of the courthouse, which is a fairly common occurrence.

It is more than likely that they are being afforded a fair trial on neutral ground with an impartial jury.

Did these guys rape the girl? Maybe they did. Maybe the mother told the guys she was 15 and rented her out and nows sees the ability to attention whore herself out for a bigger payoff. Which has been a pretty common occurrence in Colombia for years.

Both countries are just following the rules.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 07:55:

the flatline, have you ever travelled overseas as a representative of your country. The spiel they give you in the aircraft prior to landing on foreign soil goes along the lines of the following:

"You are a representative of the United States of America in this country. Not only are you now bound to comply with the laws and regulations of this country, you continue to be legally bound by the laws and codes of the United States of America. Any action you take contrary to the laws of either of these two nations will see you prosecuted in full accordance with the law you have contravened whether that action contravenes US or local laws"

See, even if they thought the 12 year old girl was 15, that is still no defence against statutory rape. The statutes in the USA state that it is illegal to have sex with a minor. Colombian law says the girl had to be 14 to consent. Either way, even if the sex was consensual, they raped her.

Further, if the mother rented her daughter to these guys, then they would be liable to prosecution for conspiring to commit a sexual act with a minor for money under the child sex laws recently passed in the USA.

There's no interpretation of the law that makes what these guys did right.

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theflatline says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:02:

Nothing makes it right, but I am willing to bet that they are being investigated, and will be sentenced accordingly here, but no one is going to make a big stink about it until a verdict is handed down. At least for the US guy anyway, we will have to see what happens with the Mexican.

I would say having citizenship in three countries means I have traveled over seas.

If you feel so strongly about it, I would suggest writing your local congressman in the US. Start a petition.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:13:

Suizo. Do you have an actual argument against the facts as presented to you ? - or do you just want to slink off with your dignity in tact ?

If ignorance offends you, then you should read more.

Have a great day - or not - I don't care.

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FreakyG says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:15:

"Also, a home country can waive immunity and allow a foreign country to prosecute. As far as I know this has never happened"

Did a little searching and this is what I found.

The home country may choose to waive immunity for one of its diplomats, leaving him open to prosecution by the host country. This was a lesson learned by Gueorgui Makharadze, the number-two ranking officer in the Republic of Georgia's embassy in Washington. In January of 1997, Makharadze sped his car through the streets of the District of Columbia at up to 80 MPH, ultimately causing an accident that injured four people and killed a sixteen-year-old girl. He was found to have a blood-alcohol level of 0.15, 150% of DC's then limit. Makharadze was released from custody because he was a diplomat, but the U.S. government asked the Georgian government to waive his immunity and they agreed. Makharadze was tried and convicted of manslaughter by the U.S. and sentenced to seven to twenty-one years in prison.

The home country always has the option of waiving diplomatic immunity. These guys wont skate (I hope) -too many judges have daughters and take their job very seriously.

Here is another example of where diplomatic immunity was extended to a slimeball Saudi Arabian diplomat who tried to have sex with a kid.


The system doesn't always work flawlessly. Salem Al-Mazrooei was arrested in Virginia after he arranged to meet the thirteen-year-old girl he'd been chatting with on the Internet at a Bedford shopping mall. According to Bedford sheriff's deputies, Al-Mazrooei had made some "very graphic" requests for sex to the seventh-grader. As it happened, the person on the other end of the keyboard was neither a seventh-grader nor a girl but rather a Bedford sheriff's deputy. The case turned sour when Mr. Al-Mazrooei was arrested and immediately asserted diplomatic immunity -- he was a Saudi Arabian diplomat assigned to the Saudi embassy in Washington. After the embassy was informed of the charges, Mr. Al-Mazrooei was removed from his job but permitted to return to Saudi Arabia. He remains outside of U.S. jurisdiction to this day.

So this dude skated. A lot of you guys make some great points and I guess we all can agree that any military in a host country should be held to the host country's laws.

Thank You Eversomuch, and then some

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:17:

Freaky. Fingers crossed man.

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FreakyG says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:19:

Yeah I hear you time.....we can only hope.

Thank You Eversomuch, and then some

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:20:

Flatline, I hope you're right.

We'll have to wait and see.

Timefor.

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theflatline says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:30:

Michael Fay got his ass caned in Thailand.

Though I met the kid and was tempted to take pool cue to his back myself because he was such a douche even after it all went down.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:31:

Azunoman. Is hard to believe. Hope it's not true.

Would SUCK if these cabrones got away with this.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 08:55:

Azunoman - you got more information the rest of us don't have ? Because if you're reading the same stuff we are, then it all points to these guys getting off.

Jonas - I read about that - the shooter - was just a civil attache - he should only have had dip immunity associated with his duties.

The criminal and civil proceedings are currently being heard in a US court.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 09:02:

HA - how cool is THAT ???? LOOOOOL

You got that pendejo's e-mail address ????

YOU DA MAN !!!!!


LOL

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 09:05:

This was the information pertaining to the case presented by the ALDHU who was trying to make sure something was done about this.



3. ECUADOR: US DIPLOMAT KILLS ECUADORAN


Peter Samuel Karmilowicz, a "civilian attache" at the US embassy
in Ecuador, is being investigated in Washington for the Dec. 5
killing of Ecuadoran Pablo Vicente Jaramillo in Quito. Ecuadoran
police say Karmilowicz shot Jaramillo after his car collided with
the taxi in which Jaramillo was riding. "We know that Mr.
Karmilowicz was under the influence of alcohol," Ecuadoran police
press officer Manuel Sarmiento said on Dec. 10. "It seems that he
crashed into the taxi and Jaramillo then attacked him.
Karmilowicz responded with a firearm, killing Jaramillo."

Karmilowicz was detained by police following the killing, but
Minister of the Interior Rodolfo Barniol ordered police to hand
him over to the US embassy because he had diplomatic immunity.
Karmilowicz left Ecuador on Dec. 7 and is currently in
Washington, DC, the embassy said. On Dec. 10, Ecuador's Ministry
of Foreign Affairs formally asked the US to lift Karmilowicz'
diplomatic immunity so he can be tried in an Ecuadoran court.

The US embassy in Quito said it was "tremendously saddened" by
the death of Jaramillo and is awaiting the outcome of
investigations before commenting further. US ambassador to
Ecuador Kristie Kenney is visiting Washington; the embassy said
she is involved in the investigations. [Miami Herald 12/11/02
from correspondent; 12/7/02 from unspecified wire services]

case for pablo vicente jaramillo.

Penal and civil demands for the young Ecuadorian Pablo Vicente Jaramillo, assassinated by Peter Karmilowicz United States Embassy official in Ecuador, who took refuge in the Viena Convention, for diplomatic immunity, evaded being detained and tried in Ecuador, is presently under legal proceedings before the United States Court.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 09:08:

The press release from the police in this case said that the shooter was drunk and shot the guy after he collided with the taxi the victim was travelling in.

I don't know how he could have been "exonerated"

Another case of Uncle Sam taking care of his own I guess.

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 09:28:

Looks like he never faced prosecution:

http://www.worldproutassembly.org/archives/2006/03/karmilowiczs_st.htm...


Makes interesting reading - and after reading this, I'm completely convinced that Unkie Sam was protecting their own.

QUOTE: These days, Karmilowicz (living in Alexandria, VA, and seeking a security job in a Fortune 500 firm), is scathing about the conduct of the interagency taskforce in the U.S. embassy in Manila.
UNQUOTE

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timeforachangeofscenery says on Sep 3, 2009, 09:49:

If you're driving overseas with your wife in the car and a car with US Diplomatic plates pulls you over, you just gotta shoot first and ask questions later.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Sep 3, 2009, 11:09:

Simon says on Sep 3, 2009, 11:20:

Burn those gringo rapist motherfokers alive!!!!!

"Just an honest, decent Colombian trying to do the right thing."--Simon

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FreakyG says on Sep 3, 2009, 11:42:

Hey Simon, I think that is exactly what is needed. Some seriously messed up people for sure. I just hope these scumbags do NOT walk. What the FK goes on in these people's heads to do that to a child? Hell, I am no psycologist, but these guys need to be put out to pasture.

Thank You Eversomuch, and then some

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Monito Pendejo says on Sep 3, 2009, 15:54:

Makopp5; there is no longer any immunity what so ever in Iraq after the Abu Ghraib incident. All the identified personnel in the abuse of the prisoners served various prison sentences either in Military Prisons or in Civilian Penetentiaries back in the States. Seems it was only Blackwater Security (States registered Private Security Army) and their Slaughter of the Innocents two years ago in Baghdad have so far escaped any form of official punishment, although they were kicked out of Iraq they returned earlier this year under a different name.

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Dolfi says on Sep 4, 2009, 01:40:

Best thing to do: keep more US military personel from coming to Colombia.

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Sep 4, 2009, 03:59:

makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Sep 4, 2009, 04:31:

dolfi
I`m just missing your comment of Ortega out of nicaragua, he was violating several times minors. What`s your opinion about that?
http://www.sandino.org/zoila.htm

"Afirmo, que fui acosada y abusada sexualmente por Daniel Ortega Saavedra, desde la edad de 11 años, manteniéndose estas acciones por casi veinte años de mi vida, y que a lo largo del presente testimonio expondré en las formas sucedidas."

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Sep 4, 2009, 13:25: