Racism in Columbia...

Simon says on Sep 26, 2006, 10:41:

Well, you won't have to worry about anyone calling you a 'nigger' because thankfully that filthy word doesn't exist in the spanish language. You also won't have to worry about anyone leaving a burning cross in front of your home.

BTW, Colombia has the third largest black population in the hemisphere after Brasil and the US.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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seabass says on Sep 26, 2006, 10:53:

Your main problem is gonna be catching hell on here for spelling the name of the country wrong!

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Tinto (Moderator) says on Sep 26, 2006, 11:17:

click on this http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/forum/7?sort=desc&order=Replies



A couple of the busiest-ever posts have been about racism. You might find some good discussions there.

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ColombiaLinda says on Sep 26, 2006, 11:32:

ouch !!!! I have never experienced racism in colOmbia. That doesn't meand that there isn't, so I can't really help you on that. But what I can really say here is how much it hurts OUCH!! when people don't know how to spell the name of my country. This is just a friendly spelling lesson:
C O L O M B I A

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Tom says on Sep 26, 2006, 12:15:

bullshit seems you guys are all living in a different country and not Colombia,
I would say here the population of Black is about 25% in Medellin !
have you ever heard about that the Police or someone else was beating the shit out of a person just because he is black, like it happen many times in your wonderful USA ?

hasta la vista

hasta la vista

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 26, 2006, 13:12:

tinto, I re-read the whole racism in Colombia thread there and I have already said everything I think about this topic:) (and that was plenty)

(I also read the whole Aura and calipro thread....wow what a novela! )

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Boatygringo says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:04:

Racism is alive and well in Colombia, I was refused admition to a club the other night in Caratagena, because I was with a black girl, I finaly piched a fit and was let in. guys with white chicas were addmited with no problem. Also there is real dicrimination against the Indians to the extent that few Colombians will admit they have any indio in there back ground. You may not see this untill you live here a while and get to know some of the culture. Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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Robert Jorge says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:05:

From what I have seen, there is more racism towards people of Indian descent. I have only been in a tiny part of the huge country, but in my little area, everybody seems to not give race a second thought. My fiancee's niece is half black, nobody in the family treats her any different. The mother isn't treated any different, having a child from a black man. And the father, owns a business that repairs electronics and appliances in Granada, Colombia. In other words he isn't extremely poor, but rather well off ... for Colombia. One of the things that make me cringe, is when I hear how people openly talk bad about the Indians. A common insult is to be called "india". It is like being called low class. So yes, there is racism here like anywhere else. But don't let that stop you from having a good time and perhaps opening people's eyes a little.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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Tom says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:06:

DonGringo let me ask you, are a racist ? or do you just feel better to live without black people in your 120 apartments ?

hasta la vista

hasta la vista

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. says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:21:

Deffab Donot worry, I am Colombian and I want to tell you the true about Colombian racism. Firstly, do not believe any word coming from dongringo, he usually speaks rubbish. Colombian people are not racist, but they are really discriminative. For example,many people think that Colombians do not like Colombians indigenous, that is not true, what they do not like is the ugly faces they usually have and they are usually small and do not wear nice and usually are the poorest people in Colombia, something like that happens with the black community, they are thought to be very poor people. Then, in Colombia people think all the time about stratification, some one from estrato 2 will avoid some one from estrato 1 (despite the fact both estratos are the lowest ones). If some one is a little bit nicer than an indigenous face person, he or she will avoid the ingigenous, actually some times some Colombians think they are white (usually the mestizos say that)!, If you are not wearing nicely, you will not be allowed to go into many different places. Now, when I used to work as a financial analyst for a Canadian company in Bogota, a group of analysts from Canada came to visit us, we decided to invite them to el Parque de la 93 after office hours, between them, there was a black guy, very nice funny guy, in the middle of the party, this guy step on the table and started dancing, well, let me tell you that every single girl in that place started shouting and screaming for this guy, women became crazy for this black guy, do you know why? Because this black guy was a handsome guy, very tall and wearing a nice suite. But if you put a small, ugly, very skinny black guy or a white (the pure) guy (the one who looks like a white paper), trust me, no one will look at them unless it is for laughing. Then, you show that yow are nice person, wear nicely, do not show off what you do not have as some of white people from USA usually do and trust me you will make a lot of friends over here, and a lot of girlfriends as well, this advice is coming from a real Colombian man and not from another gringo who thinks that he knows more about Colombian sociology that any Colombian (including Colombian sociologists). Enjoy Colombia, you are welcome.

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Tom says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:31:

juanpbadillo you are absolutely right !! great words !!

hasta la vista

hasta la vista

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Swinn88 says on Sep 26, 2006, 14:38:

Race. Normally I read and enjoy the goings on of colombia at PBH. However the topic of race touches me. Yes there is racisim in colombia. I have met the little girl in Don Matias that does not want her parents to have more children because she does not want her sibling to be made fun of in school because of their race. I have heard comments about that beautiful woman across the street but Uh oh! To bad! cause she is black! The word nigger may not exist in Spanish but how many ways can you say negro in a defamitory manor and still say your not saying nigger. I have read La Ley 70 that finally gave Blacks in the region of El Choco in the early 90's the right to own property that the Government previously stated was government property and that the Blacks and Indians were merely squatters. There is still a class system that allows the elite colombians that claim almost 100% european white ancestry to literally own and run most of the country while Blacks and indians suffer. Racisim is vast in colombia and the people ignor it and say it does not exist. The Afro Americans in the U.S. have Fought and dealt with it and continue to deal with it and thats why they are better living in the U.S. than in ony other country. It's because of them that Latinos can make a better life for themselves in the U.S. The only problem is we talk about how terrible the U.S. is but we never return to Mother. It is true that a great insult is to call someone an indio and that is denile at it apex because an Indian saying he is not an indian is a sad affair. A black saying he is not black is a sad affair. so lets get real and call it what it really is.Let me end by saying that my spelling is atrocious. However harping on the way a person that has stated that he is a black american that obviously speaks english spells colombia is akin to him getting upset that Hispanoparlantes write Los estados unidos and not The united states. Or calling a German Alemanian and not deutcsh. Remember The word Columbia does exist in english. Forgive my rambling. Just know that the problem is there and it is still a big problem.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 26, 2006, 15:09:

there's discrimination and prejudice but no institutional racism in Colombia. No, the conquistadors didn't bring boats full of women from Spain, but in the colonial period plenty of women came to the New World from Spain, some nobler than the others.
What makes me really sad is that people still think and express thenmselves like the poster above (juanpbadillo) about their own people and claim that everybody else does it too, which is absolutely false!

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juanalejo says on Sep 26, 2006, 15:59:

Desideria I think Desideria is the only foreign person in this site who understands Colombian society, the rest simply see what they want to see. Especially Dongringo who always has a "friend" to prove his point. Can he not simply state his opinion without making up stories all the time?

Racism in Colombia....that is linked to the color of the skin....yes there is some, there is always ignorant people who dislike what they are not familiar with, institutional racism....no. Discrimination due to other facts such as lack of money or lack of education yes and very strongly. But a black with money (and no, there are not that many) will be treated like a white with money, but in Colombia the mafias have left us with a big scar which usually will leave the lack of education as the prime spot for discrimination, no matter the race. I know of several people who will not even consider certain nationalities to rent apartments to, not because they are white but because many of those people from that specific nationality have so little education that it will simply be calling problems will all the neighbors.

Now for those of you that have been out to Cartagena and have been left out supposedly because of your nice black lady companion, have you ever stopped to think that maybe it was the gringo the one not allowed in, I know personally several restaurant owners in Cartagena who will not allow prostitute gringo hunters in, as it scares their traditional customers away, and I don´t blame them, there is nothing more disguting than and old fart walking around with a poor girl that has no option in life than to sell their souls to the best bet.

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andresvv75 says on Sep 26, 2006, 17:08:

no racism in Bogota You can come to Bogota and teach English in Universities or private high school whit no racism problems. Anyway almost 99% of population in Bogota are white like caucasic americans but no problem for you. But dont expect money, you will gain the enought to pay the rent and basic services but you will not be able to save money because this is a poor country.

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famsearch says on Sep 26, 2006, 17:41:

i hate to tell you this kids... but we all, all of us discriminate. in everything we do, think, or say, we discriminate. according to merriam-webster:1 a : to mark or perceive the distinguishing or peculiar features of b : DISTINGUISH, DIFFERENTIATE
2 : to distinguish by discerning or exposing differences; especially : to distinguish from another like object
intransitive verb
1 a : to make a distinction b : to use good judgment
2 : to make a difference in treatment or favor on a basis other than individual merit
so, with every choice we make, whether it is hamberguesas instead of hot dogs, cali over medellin, chicken or beef, various shades of skin color over various shades of skin color, native over newcomer, or even city folks or monteñeros, every time, we discriminate against the choice that isn't the preferred one. you may say you do not discriminate, but if you see someone, and you would rather not be standing next to them, without even knowing them, you've discriminated against them. now historically, this has lead to violence, true enough here in the states, but also all over the world. look at africa, hutus and tutsis killing each other off, not because of skin color, but because of different tribes. but that is one extreme, on the other hand, i've seen several good, heated debates on the merits of mustard or ketchup on hot dogs. it's just a matter of degree that both parties are going to take the argument. in my own example, i used to have an uncle of german descent, and we would go back and forth, he calling me a dumb polack, and i would retort about his being a stubborn german. did we love each other less for it? not one bit, especially after i reminded him that he had married my aunt, who was even more polish than i, and we'd both laugh. as i said at the beginning, discrimination is everywhere, we all practice it in one form or another, to a certain degree.
dan

dan

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802MARK says on Sep 26, 2006, 18:27:

BLACK WHITE TAN I'M A GOOD OLE SOUTHERN BOY YEEAAHHH BUT LET ME TELL YA THIS, THERE IS NONE OF THAT IN COLOMBIA. EVERYONE IS COLOMBIAN. HECK I LOOKED FOR A RALLY BUT FOUND NONE.. JUST KIDDING... I HAVE NOTHING AGAINST ANYONE BASED ON SKIN COLOR... I DATED A LADY FOR A WEEK OR SO AND I AM WHITE BREAD,, SHE WAS MIDNIGHT, AND WE HAD NO JEERS OR PROBLEMS AT ALL, PEOPLE LOOKED ONLY AT ME CAUSE I AM A WHITE BOY WITH BLUE EYES AND LONG BLOND HAIR AND STOOD OUT LIKE THE SUN... BUT NO PROBLEMS WITH THAT SMALL MINDED B.S. LIKE IN THE STATES.. I DID STOP DATING THE LADY THO BECAUSE EVEN THO I REALLY LIKED HER AND WE WERE GREAT TOGETHER I KNEW ONCE HOME WITH HER THAT THE REDNECKS WOUDL CAUSE TROUBLE. BUT IN COLOMBIA NONE.. TAKE CARE AND GO YOU WILL LOVE IT!!!

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adrimm says on Sep 26, 2006, 19:04:

More socio-econ than racial is the impression I get from observing my relatives and my mother's university friends (who do include several people of african heritage).

If a person is "educado" then they are accepted. "Educado" generally means well-mannered (well kept goes without saying) and in some circles university-educated.

edit: throw well-spoken in there too (but this applies in alot places....sloppy enunciation or ill-used grammer throws walls up for people all over the world).

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Robert Jorge says on Sep 26, 2006, 21:44:

I totally agree with adrimm. I see more discrimination due to perceived education level, and social status level. I will try and make my little story as short as possible. When I got to Villavicencio, my fiancee and I looked for a furnished apartment. We found one and the owner showed it to us. It is an estrato 4. A few days later, when it came time to sign the lease, I could tell things were different, even a little tense. I had no idea why. I now know, the reason was because my fiancee's family, (mother, sister, and sister's boyfriend) were also there. The landlady required my fiancee's mother to co-sign - which is normal. The problem was when she asked where my fiancee's mother and family lived, it was an estrato 2 barrio. The family was well dressed, and are the most polite people I have ever met. BUT, they were from estrato 2! The landlady really gave them a hard time by some of her questions. And if I hadn't been a gringo from the US, I truly believe the landlady would have not rented to them. The more I have thought about that day, and the way the family was treated, the more angry I get.
But, my point is I agree with adrimm, in that it has also been my experience, that social status and education level are more of a factor in discrimination than simply race.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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. says on Sep 27, 2006, 00:36:

Desideria and tinto, I was speaking generally, so do not get so sad about what I have said. I am ugly, short and poor, and because of that I have been descriminated, but, that does not mean that people is being racist against of me. Colombian people descriminate aganinst of ugly people despite the fact they are coming from, if you are an ugly and poor guy from the states, they will try to run away, they will not feel confortable with him. We got the case 8 years ago when a friend of us told us that a guy from the states was coming to visit her, well, we said it would be nice for all of us to use our badly spoken english. two weeks later, this chad arrived to the aeropuerto el Dorado en Bogota, what a disapointed figure appears in front of us, he was looking like a hippie(or may be rastafarie), quite dirty and the worst thing is that he was speaking with an english full up of slangs we had ever heared. We went out with him that night but we pull out the rest of times we were invited. What I meant it is just about looking, Desideria says that she feels sad for what i have said, well...ugly is agly and handsome is hand some, I do not expect people tell me I am handsome because it would be a lie, i am ugly and i do not mind to be like that, I have to show the best of me to make understand people that this is not everything about uglyness. I belive I am not stupid and I have done my best to get the most of my life by using my ugly face. i am not against of ugly people, actually I think that ugly people are more funny, intelligent and easy going. So, what I wrote up there is a general speaking about the Colombian society. Try this, put a handson guy coming out from a limosine and wearing a nice suite, then put a guy like me or another guy with a very ugly indigenous face, small and wearing the same is wering the handsome man, and coming out from a limosine as the handsome man does, people look at them and think that the handsome man is probably a business man and the ugly man is probably a narcotraficant who got the money easy. It is not me this is Colombia.

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. says on Sep 27, 2006, 00:43:

A agree with.... Robert Jorge and jusn alejo on that there is a big discrimination due to other facts such as lack of money or lack of education the problem is that so many people (no every one as desideria try to point out about something I have never said!)think that the lack of education and money is due to a fisiological figure.

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Simon says on Sep 27, 2006, 09:40:

Someone made a good point. I mean, when was the last time someone was beaten or murdered in Colombia solely because on their race? How many groups are there in Colombia whose purpose of existence is due to race, like the KKK or the Aryan Nation?

And there are colombian blacks who have reached the upper stratas, mostly in sports, such as Faustino Asprilla, Edgar Renteria, Francisco Maturana etc.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Swinn88 says on Sep 27, 2006, 09:47:

These problems are inherent in all societies. But to say it is not there when it is is ridiculous. Blacks and indians in colombia have not made many advances in colombia because they have been denied the resources to do so. That includes educational resources. on the books there may not be institutional but it is there. Just like in the good ole U.S. of A there is no longer institutional racisim on the books any longer but it is very prevalent. And just like every other country Colombians are all Colombians when they are not in Colombia. Just like the lines of race fade when a black North American meets a white American in Iraq, or Istanbul. Independence Day in colombia passes by with almost no celebration in most parts of the country but all come together to celebrate when outside the country. I have never seen Colombians gather to celebrate independence day in Colombia like they do in Queens. Never! In addittion. Blacks with money in The U.S.A. are treated as elite also. Denzel Washington or Will Smith need not worry much about blatant racisim. That is because of their status, their place, their new found aristocracy in the U.S.A.. The lines of racisim is and will continue to be blurred if you have the financial means to make people ignore your brown, black, yellow,olive white, appearence. It is the same in the u.s. it is the same in Colombia. We Bash the U.S.A because we want to have what they have never realizing that we can make it happen for ourselves. When we have what they have we will rejoice and defend ourselves. But we will be just like them the only difference is we will speak Spanish.

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Simon says on Sep 27, 2006, 11:25:

"A general rule in Colombia is "if you're white, you're right. If you're black, step back"."


Maybe they borrowed that from the dixie states.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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. says on Sep 27, 2006, 12:19:

"A general rule in Colombia "another general rule in Colomba" if you are yankee, you are clampsy. If you are Colombian, you are quiant.

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Swinn88 says on Sep 27, 2006, 12:38:

sounds very familiar Morphus
sounds very familiar Morphus

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 27, 2006, 12:40:

there are plenty of black professionals in Cali, lawyers, teachers, doctors etc. I see black employees all over, in government offices, banks, schools and universities. Maybe that discrimination morgus is talking about is a more of a Medellin thing.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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robi666 says on Sep 27, 2006, 12:51:

One thing about women, expecially from the coast: usually, they seem to not like black men. If you're black, you have to be really handsome and/or showing money to get one hottie. Just the opposite of what happens with women from Europe and Rasta guys in the caribbeans...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Swinn88 says on Sep 27, 2006, 12:52:

Plenty of black professsionals, lawyers teachers Doctors etc. in the U.S.A. Racisim still persists there. Because a few have crossed the line and experience lesser racisim does not mean we should forget about the ones being held back. They are the majority of blacks and indians that that society keeps under their thumb, never wanting or allowing them to get up and start something productive. the fact remains that a few have made good for themselves. But there are plenty more longing to be treated as equals. In Colombia.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 27, 2006, 14:32:

I haven't seen black males discriminated robi666....not by black females, anyway:)

Cheers,
Desi



Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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toneloc24 says on Sep 27, 2006, 14:59:

at Robi666 Man, you are so wrong by that statement. I'm as ugly as Elmo and have absolutely zero problems in any part of the coast with ladies of any shade of color. Showing money? Yeah right. Blue passport, more than possible. LOL!!!


Black professionals in Colombia? If you can count them on your hands and feet in any city, pssstttt that's not very many considering the population of what 42 million or so. LOL!!!

People see what they want to see. And people hear what they want to hear to make themselves feel better. Don Gringo and even Elmo, for all they say, get it.

Does racism and discrimination exist in Colombia? Hell yeah, but a lot of other things play into those oh-so-visible facts. The higher up the strata level you go, the more you see it. It's tolerable, but it does exist.

To the OP, I would focus my pursuit on being a teacher in Colombia on the Atlantic coast (Cartagena, Barranquilla, Santa Marta) or in Cali. I wouldn't waste my time on the other major cities.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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webmanco says on Sep 27, 2006, 16:46:

Toneloc24 and GIB You are all welcome to ask downtown Bogotà for black lawyers. You might be surprised.

I agree with Juanalejo and Desideria.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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robi666 says on Sep 27, 2006, 17:45:

Toneloc I am glad that you have a different opinion! :-)
"The higher up the strata level you go, the more you see it",
Well, I am not sure about it. I would say the contrary.
Anyway, I don't know... it's not a real racism here. Hard to explain.
Ok, let's say my wife and her friends are talking "chismosiando" of another friend. They say that she has a boyfriend treating her bad (normal in Bquilla?). I go: "is he handsome, at least?". Average answer: "Nooo, piensa el es un negro de un barrio mas maloooo" I say: "a negro can be handsome, o no?". They go: "Uh?".

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Ulbrich says on Sep 27, 2006, 18:07:

I am a black Colombian Woman I can tell you that in Colombia you will find the worst class of racism that is the one you are welcome to be my friend!!…I am not racist…. BUT have you got money and you are from abroad…after all you are not so black!!!…Do not miss out the chance to go there, there is good people, funny and with a good heart but they will always have in mind that you are black and whenever you do something good they will go yeah that’s normal and whenever you do something wrong they will say: what can you expect from a black!!…After I finish my studies in Bogotá I found it very difficult to get a job in the navy, I mean a proper god job, not because I wasn’t well prepared but because I was black as I was told. Then I moved to London and hey!! Guess what?? I worked in a very nice professional place… Now I am married with a master’s degree and working in a society that is use to black people. Working and leaving out of my abilities and not judge by the colour of my skin…but you know what, I will go back to teach my people and I mean my Colombian people that they need to get rid off of their ignorance and conditionings, that they need to help the poor black and Indian societies, because they are leaving out side the system people able to think and work, people able to produce and take the country further. People all over the world would think you are my brother just because you are black like me but my Colombian brothers deny our relationship just because of my skin. So my brother, go to Colombia without fear, you will have a good time just don’t trust them and enjoy. That is a simple rule of being black wherever you go!!!! If you have the chance go to Choco, where I come from…bit risky though!!

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poco says on Sep 27, 2006, 19:34:

So tom,, is this your personal bash the U.S. site ? someone else was beating the shit out of a person just because he is black, like it happen many times in your wonderful USA ?

If you knew anything at all about Colombia you’d understand they tie their hands behind their back and throw them in a body of water, usually a river, alive and watch them drown when they get out of line.

There isn’t much discrimination in Colombia because the blacks seem to understand that if they have no skills, no education and would rather chew coca leaves, fish and sit in the shade all day they really can't expect much and for sure don’t blame their woes on discrimination.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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caslug says on Sep 27, 2006, 21:04:

any reasonable person.. would say that there is RACISM/DISCRIMINATION in COLOMBIA. I mean, what country DOESNT have it? the real question is what is the society doing to reduce it? But why reduce it, people could ask?..

Ulbrich is an excellent example. If she could get work BASED on merit versus class/skin then COL would not have lost out on a productive(tax paying) citizen.. who is now working and contribution his/her skill to another country(and paying taxes in the new country)..

Of course, poor people in colombia have it difficult without even discussing race/skin color. so the bigger challenge for the government/society is how to help people rise out of poverty first, before battling discrimination. of course, it would be a very powerful message for the head-of-govt to make statement AND action to enforce anti-discrimitory laws.

US still remember Pres. Eisenhower putting US trooops to ENFORCE civil right legistlation(brown vs. Kansas board of education).. or Kennedy putting troops to allow black student to go to college.. those were VERY POWERFUL LEGAL AND MORAL ACTIONS.. that the whole country/society stood up and notice.. I mean when was the LAST time you heard of a country using it's Military to ENFORCE/PROTECT a minority group from discrimination? I think US is the ONLY country in the 20th century to do that.. Most nations use their military to PUT DOWN/PROSECUTE minority groups within their border.

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NYCValduparense says on Sep 28, 2006, 00:37:

Deefab, the best thing you... Could do is go as a tourist and see how you like it first. Blend in and don't give mind that you're black, I'm sure people will do the same. Heck as long as you're cool, friendly and social. I'm Mestizo (more of a mutt) and I've lived all my life in NYC and traveled all over the U.S. and Colombia but I've never encountered any kind of racism or judgement (well, not in my face) from any white, black, or latino person, and I guess because I just jump in, socialize, articulate and behave in a good manner. The problem is that people give too much mind to such small things instead of being transparent and get to know each other. Sadly, it's not like that in this world.

DID ANYONE HEAR ABOUT THE BLACK AND WHITE TWINS IN THE UK, VERY INTERESTING STORY. AND THAT'S TO LET PEOPLE KNOW HOW BLIND NATURE IS TO DIFFERENCES IN COLOR AND RACE. CLICK TO READ ABOUT IT.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=377839&in_page_id=1770&in_a_source=&ct=5




Valledupar!

Valledupar!

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Simon says on Sep 28, 2006, 08:42:

"If you knew anything at all about Colombia you’d understand they tie their hands behind their back and throw them in a body of water, usually a river, alive and watch them drown when they get out of line.

There isn’t much discrimination in Colombia because the blacks seem to understand that if they have no skills, no education and would rather chew coca leaves, fish and sit in the shade all day they really can't expect much and for sure don’t blame their woes on discrimination."

-------------------------------------------------


Hey Poco,

And is this your personal bash Colombia website?

You should stop making up stories and realize that those of your nationality (americans) are in no position to call colombians racist! How many organizations like the KKK are there in Colombia? How many blacks have been hung from trees? How many civil wars fought over slavery? How much segregation or Jim Crow laws? Think about that!

How you like them apples?

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Boatygringo says on Sep 28, 2006, 09:32:

Old Gringo Farts I will take my licks for this post but this is how I see it. Juanalejo, dont blame the Old Gringo Farts for the problems of Colombia, if the poor Colombian Girls were not ready and eager to be with O.G.F Then a lot of the O.G.F. would not be in Colombia spending $$$, The fact is lots of the poor girls get knocked up at an early age,(not by Gringos) , there is no welfare in Colombia, dont finish school and have no other way to support them selfs or there kids, not to mention Mama and other members of the family. The poor education system and the lack of work dont help this situation, and yes as stated in other posts they are usualy dark skinned.. But the discimination comes when Colombians think because a dark skinned girl is with a Gringo she is a punta

Boatygringo

Boatygringo

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Simon says on Sep 28, 2006, 09:35:

BTW, I love the gringos, it's just those bad apples (i.e.DonGringo) that almost spoil the bunch.

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Swinn88 says on Sep 28, 2006, 10:23:

Americans are actually in the best position to call colombians racist. I suggest we search history databanks and look at slave uprisings. Wars were fought in The U.S.A. because some people believed that slavery was wrong and worth fighting against unlike some other countries. Wars were fought in the U.S.A for the freedom of slaves not so that society could hold on to the status quo. Civil rights were fought for so that blacks were equal to everyone else. To me that sounds like a nation that has advanced and has the right to say hey look what we have done, we are trying to decrease racisim. Accepting the status quo and doing nothing simply means everyone is nice and comfy in there position. The KKk is not needed in Colombia because they are not needed to supress blacks and indians in Colombia. If and when Blacks and indians rise from their positions, there will be those trying to put them back in their place. They wont be called the KKK but they will be just like them. From what i have seen the web site bashes Americans not Colombians. Lets keep it real. There are negatives about colombia and the U.S.A. But for goodness sake if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...ITS A DUCK! There is Racisim in Colombia. It's no better nor worse than in the U.S.A. To argue that Americans are more racist is just ridiculous! A racist is a racist and will discriminate however he/she can in any case. Remember the first black Miss Colombia? Vanessa Mendoza Bustos in 2002? remember how upset the people were? They do better now with things like this but it is because of racisim that colombians were no ready for her to take the crown. Jeymmy Paola Vargas Gomez was the first black miss international What a beauty! Oh!!!! pobrecita negra. If only she were not black. I have heard these statements many times. I believe most of us have.

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Simon says on Sep 28, 2006, 11:58:

Swinn88
So according to Swinn88

So according to you, countries that have fought ugly civil wars, have racist groups like the KKK, and have needed civil rights movements so black people could drink from the same water fountain as whites, are in a better position to finger point against countries that ended slavery peacefully and have never had segregation laws? Are you kidding or what?

And if americans or any other nationality get bashed on this board, it's because they bash Colombia first. Don't poke us and expect not to be poked back!

"DON'T FOK WITH COLOMBIA!!"-----Simon

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Don Miguel says on Sep 28, 2006, 12:13:

racism against blacks??? I felt compelled to respond to this. I am sure there are those out there who spew thier racist diatripe in Colombia just as in any place in the world. However I have read comments from people who may have visited Colombia and feel they have a true understanding of the people and culture of Colombia when in reality they know very little and or do not see beyond thier very noses. I am married to a beautiful Colombian woman a Calena to be precise. Her occupation was a lawyer for the gov. of Cali and there were a considerable number of her co-workers (also lawyers) who are black. There is very little distinction between the races, the differences that exist are of social status because of level of income. perhaps this needs some explanation as well. Blacks in Colombia were origanlly slaves, the same as north america. When Simon Bolivar freed Colombia from Spanish rule, slavery was eliminated. Unfortunately the blacks and indians had to start from the bottom of the pile finacially there go socially. There are today large numbers of blacks and some indians who through dilligence and hard work have put thier children through university and who now hold very respectable and lucrative positions both in the genereral work force and in government. I have never seen any discrimination to blacks in Colombia. And I have traveled extensively in Colombia, small villages and major cities as well and found only social discrimination which can be even harder to overcome. We count many so called blacks as are friends and equals and fail to see any racial distinction. Those who say there is racism may only be feeling the racism towards gringos and think that this applies to other races. Let's face it if you act like a red neck gringo with attitude and a lack of respect for other cultures don't be suprised if the majority of Colombians want you to go home. This is the reason I always point out to those we meet that I am Canadian, it to them makes difference.

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Swinn88 says on Sep 28, 2006, 13:06:

first I would like to state that i have watched and viewed this board for a while and what i see are a few people that are very sensative about the slightest negative comment about colombia regardless of if it is true or not and spew anti American rhetoric for no reason whenever possible. The board is not to Bash Colombia however from past posts I have seen people Bash the U.S.A. for no reason and then pounce on people like Dongringo for defending the U.S.A Just like you defend Colombia. In addittion Yes! if someone can tell me that I have no right to point my finger at an atrocity I say I c an point my finger at them and say At least we tried to do something about the atrocities in our country. According to me The wars fought in The U.S.A were fought so that Blacks could have freedom. According to me the Civil rights movement was so that we could eat and drink together. Slavery was ended in colombia but the discrimination persist. And yes if Blacks and Indians were to rise up and become equals the euro descendents and other non afro or indio colombians will try to beat them down to into submission like the KKK. My mother a Black Colombian and my father a Black American taught me to open my eyes and see whats going on around us. Thats what I do. I am a defender of colombia when it is right I am a defender of The U.S.A when it is right. so get off your high horse and recognize what we are and what we are not. instead of U.S.A. bashing think about if what is being said is true. If it is not then teach them. don't blaim it on the U.S.A.. and for those of us living in the U.S.A., and bash the U.S.A. where else would you rather live? I have many friends and family then say they will never return to Colombia and they don't. I guess thats because Colombia is Perfect unlike the U.S.A that gets the Blaim for every problem in every country. I Love Colombia But i'm not blind to what happens in Colombia I love The U.S.A and i'm not blind to what happens their either.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2006, 13:31:

tinto Bolivar had the intention to liberate all slaves from the beginning and with the promise of setting them free he recruited soldiers among the slaves. He was pushing the issue since 1818 (Costa Firme Declaration)and successively until in 1821 his declaration of freedom of womb made all children born to slaves free, but had to work for their previous owners until they were 18 as an indemnization. The slavery was finally totally abolished in 1851.

For the timetable of the whole process see:
http://www.archivogeneral.gov.co/version2/htm/abolicion.htm

Cheers,
Desi

Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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toneloc24 says on Sep 28, 2006, 13:33:

Don Miguel This isn't coming from a position of disrespect, so please understand that first.

Can your wife, if she is a black caleña, seriously tell you that she would have been afforded the same opportunities in Bogota or Medellin?

Cali is a different story, as I mentioned to the OP. It's a largely black and mixed city.

What kills me on these racism threads is that someone ALWAYS brings up the KKK and the US history of racism, when the thread has absolutely nothing to do with the USA. The KKK has nothing on FARC and the AUC slaughtering innocents and stealing land.

At the very least, the USA has held a mirror up to its face and tried to work on remedies to our racial problems. That mirror might have a few cracks, it might not be the prettiest picture, but at least we see oursleves in the mirror.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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Don Miguel says on Sep 28, 2006, 13:47:

talk about ignorance!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I agree there is no point in bashing the U.S. it's only a few pin headed ignorant red necks that make the whole barrel look bad. By and large Americans are pretty nice people, many of which are my relatives, I don't go bashing American's for fun. But you know little to nothing of Colombia. If a nieghbourhood lacks blacks it is because of social status (financial) not because they are not welcome. Unlike in the U.S. and in some areas of Canada as well as around the world, were they are discriminated against because of COLOUR. I don't know were in Colombia you have been, but perhaps you just need to look a little deeper to see the full picture. I have spent a lot of time in a great many neighbourhoods middle class, upper class and everything in between and there have always been blacks, fewer in number true, but again this is a social status issue with no basis in racism. So let's not perpetuate the ignorance that north americans have about Colombia and start have intelligent dialougue.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2006, 14:20:

we've talked about this before and there are hundreds of post in those threads from from last year or the year before. The same people, the same arguments. (Plus a couple of new, like Don Miguel minus a few others that have quitted). Basically, everybody either born or educated in USA sees Colombia as a nation with deep, widespread racism. Everybody born and educated in Colombia sees Colombia as a nation of a class society, social and economical discrimination and prejudice based on culture, lack of education, poverty and all of the above intertwined with the ethnic makeup of the communities. But not racist, in the first place. What I think, we see here, is superimposing of our own cultural and ideological patterns on another society that has a different type of social conflict not based on racial issues.

Cheers,
Desi
Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 28, 2006, 14:25:

uhhh...and I kind of hate bringing this up but exactly the same type of discrimination (or racism) is the kind I see, for example, in Florida when people don't like the Haitians to move into their neighbourhoods because the property values collapse...

There are no totally white neighbourhoods in Cali; in all of them, even in stratum 5 and 6 there are multiethnic and multiracial families living there and if their neighbours complain they don't do it openly. They are not selling their houses because those people are moving in...

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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toneloc24 says on Sep 28, 2006, 15:15:

There's currently a lawsuit in motion in Cartagena by members of Orlando Cabrera's family. You know, the shortstop for the Los Angeles Angels of the MLB, and also one of the guys currently involved in funding and developing one of the largest buildings in Cartagena.

Apparently, some members of his family were out partying in Cartagena. Dressed respectably and not acting by any means over-the-top. They were denied entrance at a couple of the Getsemani discos, even though they had money and were dressed the part, and were with regular women. The discos were not yet full, nor were there any private parties going on. They were denied entrance because of who they "were", or appeared to be, so they were told.

The following week or so, with Orlando's blessing, they served at least one of those discos with a discrimination lawsuit. Only then did the disco's owner/manager realize who these people really were and tried to settle it quietly.

You can call it discrimination, society, class, racism. No matter what you call it, it ain't right and it's an everyday story there.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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bibefito21 says on Sep 28, 2006, 19:29:

weell well i live in colombia and have lived here for about a year now my next door neighboors are of jamaican decent and they are Black. They are great freinds with my grandparents who have lived here for over 50 years,let me tell you that this is a strato 5 neighborhood and they are family freinds and have been this forever. In colombia -theres racism but more evident is the socio economical diferences than racism. My neighboors who are of african decent are well to do and are very good people. However if they were poor it would be a different story i hope u understand what im getting at. In colombia people look more at the social than racial u understand??? unfortunately this IS more true and more common than racism
Maybe ur freind was with a shabby looking girl, in clubs they look more at that than race,they look at what ur wearing, and how ur dressed.

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caslug says on Sep 28, 2006, 20:09:

last year i gave a lecture at Universidad de National, Medellin (i think that was the name).. to a classroom full of future colombian teacher.. I was invite to speak about educational experience in the USA by the head of the department..about 20 future teacher, none of them ever visited the US before.. Except the professor(dep't head), who has visit US and Europe many times.

When we came up to the issue of prejudices/racism/discriminatory in education, both in USA/COL.

I asked them, "what is your(col society) view of colombian-indian?"
they all said col-society views indio as "un-educated, poor"..
so I asked, "what about black-colombian?".. they replied with words like, "un-educated, poor, a little dangerous(criminal)"..

I then asked, "what about chino-colombinas?".. they replied, "hardworking, well-to-do, educated,"..

They recognize that those where all prejudices and that it was based on stereotypes that they grew up with. AND was able to discuss it intelligently and objectively. I wouldnt call the students racist, they held on to these beliefs and only when they were confronted with it, did they recognize that it was wrong to PREJUDGE people(especially their future students)..

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sallya says on Sep 29, 2006, 00:07:

Low socio-economic status and racism go together! Most people posting seem to fall into one of two camps - those who believe that Colombia is a classist society and those who believe it is a racist society. This seems far too simplistic an interpretation.

If your socio-economic status had nothing to do with race then you would see an even spread of ethnicities/'colours' across all classes or levels of social privilege. This is not, however, the case in most countries.

From what most people have said in this thread there seems to be a consensus that there are fewer black Colombians in the middle and upper classes. And so you have to ask the question 'why'? And it seems that it must come down to access to resources, education and equal opportunities. Maybe black Colombians are denied access to these things on the basis of class. But that class had to be established in the first place, and surely a low social status in this respect can be traced back to a history of oppression through slavery, or in the case of the native Americans, colonialisation.

I just think that it is very difficult to separate a history of racism (that existed all over the world) from what is now a very classist society.

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sallya says on Sep 29, 2006, 00:27:

For Deefab Deefab,

I just got a job teaching 2nd grade at a billingual school in Santa Marta, on the Caribbean coast. I start in January. It is possible that the school still has 1 teaching position available for next year. You would have to be a qualified teacher (Bachelor's degree and teaching cerification). If you want the school's info you can email me - sallyalderton at gmail.com

Sal.

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A Mulatto of Style says on Sep 29, 2006, 07:13:

A Mulatto of style from the West Indies

So generally speaking, would a black (or dark mulatto in my case) have an easier time finding a job in Cartagena than in Medellin or Bogota???

A Mulatto of style from the West Indies

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Swinn88 says on Sep 29, 2006, 07:17:

Denile The word ladies and gentlemen is denile. No one wants to admit that they or their country are imperfect. Colombia is not perfect. The U.S.A. is not perfect. unfortunately racisim is there for all of us to see regardless of what title we try to hide it with. we know its there. Maybe we should just ignore it and pretend it does not exist. After all if we go that route then we can blame it on others and say they do it we don't. Because we are a perfect society, with no faults. Whats the next topic?

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toneloc24 says on Sep 29, 2006, 07:27:

at Mulatto Easy answer: If qualified, yes. You can even include Cali in there. Easier time, but still not easy by any stretch.

"Don't tase me, bro!!!!"

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A Mulatto of Style says on Sep 29, 2006, 08:04:

Yikes... Well this all seems very disconcerting. I spent last xmas/new years in Medellin with my best friend and her colombian family. They treated me extremely well. My spanish leaves much to be desired though so i didnt get to interact directly with many outside the family. Also,they were all a little concerned about our safety as I had never been to Colombia and speak only basic spanish - despite the fact that I saw lots of ppl running around Medellin that looked like me which I found surprising ( I am from the English-Speaking Caribbean and in my country, mulattos make up only a small percentage so I was amazed to see people that looked like me and my family for the first time!)so my friend although Colombian, is Candian by birth and hadnt been back in almost 10 years. I never experienced racism there but couldnt help but notice how a large proportion of the ppl on the street begging/mothers with children begging etc etc were either Afro Colombian or dark Mulattos - Very disappointing, and indicative of a society which is still characterized by extremes in social disparaty at least partially rooted in race. With this said, my friends family (my Colombian family:) welcomes me with open arms if I ever want to visit or teach there. I just figured as I am Caribbean I would "blend in" more easily up north and might face less "prejudice" there. With this said, its rediculous that in 2006 a young, intelligent,well-mannered, university educated, multi-lingual, well travelled, well dressed person from a good upper-middle class family has to worry about this sort of thing!

A Mulatto of style from the West Indies

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Sep 29, 2006, 10:55:

Cali The Caribbean and the Pacific Coast have sizable black communities and the cities and towns in those areas are very mixed and also offer the best opportunities for black people to get an education and thus advance on the social ladder. It all boils down to money. If you have it, the color of your skin is not that big a deal. Cali has a lot of people who have moved in during the last decade from Buenaventura and the Cauca province south, mainly black and Indigenous people. The mayor is of Cali is black (also blind....not just color-blind) and there are lots of black professionals in Cali, but to say that Cali is mainly black is erroneous. Now that the Cartel is gone, the economy of that city is still in the hands of the old, traditional families and none of them are black.

Tone's example of Renterías family suing a nightclub proves absolutely nothing: by the same token you could say that Sweden is an ultraracist country (which is nonsense, of course), we have similar lawsuits here all the time because some of the snottier nightclubs have a preferred type of clientele and will not let darker male customers in that easily. It's discrimination and it happens all over the world.

I happened to be at a coctail party last winter in Cali and there was a young black couple from Senegal there. Everybody was talking to them and they didn't seem to be in any discomfort at all.

So, why aren't there more black and Indigenous people in the government but especially why aren't there more of them in the board of trustees of the multinationals, Colombian corporations, businesses, among the academia? Why aren't there more women among the university professors and researches in Sweden? Because if not legislated people tend to want to work with others they can relate to, that will fit in. It's discrimination, of course. Colombia has a long road ahead to empower its blacks and Indigeneous, to create a tradition of active participation in community affairs, to bring the periphereal communities (mainly black and Indigenous) to have the same benefits as people in Bogotá or Medellin have, regardless of race. The rule of thumb is that the further away from Bogotá you are the worse off you are. Regardless of your race.

Cheers,
Desi


Embrace your uniqueness. Time is much too short to be living someone
else's life.

-Kobi Yamada

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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juancegomez says on Oct 1, 2006, 16:00:

I'd tend to agree with Desideria here Not only with the most recent post, but also with one phrase posted earlier that just about sums it up, in my opinion: "there's discrimination and prejudice but no institutional racism in Colombia".

I'd add a few things though, which may make a small to moderate difference...there's discrimination and prejudice, which I usually tend to describe as "passive discrimination", because there aren't really many active attempts at harming black people specifically due to their race. Classism is, IMHO, much more active and even perhaps more widespread than racism, though I don't deny the existence of both (some people have previously thought that I'm denying racism by stating this, but I'm not).

In my opinion, there's a mentality that almost unconsciously promotes looking down upon black people in certain circumstances, for example, being wary about them and their intentions if they aren't immediately clear (ie: the young black man walking down the street at midnight, as opposed to the scholarship-earning black student in a university campus, for example).

That doesn't mean that African-Colombians can't get fair treatment and a good job, because they can, but that they usually may have to work a bit harder, more transparently, patiently and honestly, in order to do so. They can succeed, but if they are willing to explictly make an effort, which isn't always easy.

It's also the case that many people don't look "black enough" to suffer as much specific discrimination as clearly African-descendants do, and that tends to dilute racism somewhat in some areas of the country and among some sectors of the population, especially when the other people involved aren't fully white or what have you either. It may not erase it, but it reduces open racism against these people in these circumstances.

Finally, I wouldn't say that racism here is "better" or "worse" than that in the U.S., only that it can sometimes be quite a bit different (and others, of course, it will be very similar...it varies).

And, btw, somebody (here or in another topic) was talking about the armed groups and how they act and react against black people..well, guess what, there are plenty (in numbers, even if not proportionally) of blacks in the guerrillas, the Army, the Police and even in paramilitary groups (there's a famous photo of Carlos Castaño standing with a squad of heavily armed African-Colombians behind him).

That doesn't mean that they aren't discriminated, even within those groups, no, only that race is not an issue that actively divides the country per se, as the armed conflict occurs independently of it. You can be an armed right winger or left winger regardless of your race, and you can kill or be killed all the same.

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argeano says on Nov 14, 2006, 14:53:

racism in Colombia and Latin America in General hello i read your piece on Colombia and i really want to know if there is widespread racism in Colombia? I know that Colombia is 25% white and also the same amount black but could you please tell me about the current social situation and racial situation in that country? Argeano

my email address is_argeano at yahoo.com

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jooker says on Nov 18, 2006, 13:53:

I have also wondered about racism in Colombia for sometime now. I especially when it comes to dating and marraiage. Because it appears the "prefer" the average lighter skinned person to the average dark-skinned . Of course I don't know how they feel about a foreign black man, who has a good job and good money. I have a decent job and earn 200,000 dollars a year with that I was planning to retire to one of those southern american countries like Colombia and live rich. But it seems like they are still haveing problems with skin Colour. i don't know how they feel about foreign black men.

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goin_south says on Nov 18, 2006, 14:48:

jooker I'm sure you'll get confused more than anything else from the responses to your concern, here on pbh.

They say there is racism in Colombia. Hell, isn't there racism all over the world, to some degree? and different degrees within different cultures and different per person.

I know and know of a few Colombianas who have married Americian black men. (Maybe you weren't talking 'marriage', though.)

I think that guy, tomtom33 can probably help you with your concern.

Pretty much like anywhere else, I think. Sure, we all have some degree of sensitisation or de-sensitization about the color of our own or other people's skin. But, treat 'em (whoever) with respect and it's probably what you're gonna get coming back to ya. Most times. America. Colombia. Where ever. (Iraq? Iran.... no se) (And, I don't want to find out.)

I still don't know that they make this claim in Colombia, but always remember a puerto riquean I dated saying if you go to a family re-union there (P.R.), one family's skin color will run the spectrum from very light/nearly white to very dark. Hard to be racist against your cousin. In Colombia, they seem to be bent a lil more on naming backgrounds which translate somewhat into skin tones.

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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goin_south says on Nov 18, 2006, 14:52:

No big deal, but... My novia has said a few times, she wishes she were much lighter (I like, just the way she is!), and I would prefer not to be quite so pale... she loves it, she says. Go figure. ? ? ?

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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. says on Nov 18, 2006, 16:01:

galecito, your girlfriend does not love your colour, she just loves you. I have seen so many Colombian girls with disgusting folks, and they say..."I love your eyes", "I Love your ass", "I love your hands", "I love your colour". Women in Colombia use psychology on their self to get over her boyfriend’s ugliest part. Has she told you "she loves your dick?" just to get over your tiny winy puppet?.

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jooker says on Nov 18, 2006, 17:11:

I hope I can win the lottery and just live in Colombia. Id be a rich black dude.

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goin_south says on Nov 18, 2006, 21:03:

you'd be a rich black dude, with lots of Colombianas from ... a million in USD per year, for the next 30 years. (I bet they could all get along.) Spent in Colombia... a little glimpse of heaven. Who would care about going to heaven after that?

Juanpbdilla? (...and, they all saying here on pbsh that Colombians don't do drugs.)

Why Colombianitas? Personally... I just don't like pink areolar tissue.

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jooker says on Nov 19, 2006, 05:02:

Million??? Does a guy need a million to live like a king? I thought 100,000 would be more than enough?

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kkemerait says on Nov 19, 2006, 06:32:

a Teacher? If you are planning a teaching career in Colombia, then I would suggest as a first lesson, learning to spell the name of the country correctly.

God I love being able to correct a teacher...even after all these years!

:)

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