Racial Discrimination in Colombia

Simon says on Feb 13, 2008, 21:55:

A "massive Afro-Colombian population in Medellin"? Are you kidding? Medellin is one of the 'whitest' cities in Colombia.

From Wikipedia:

"The vast majority of Paisas are of mixed white European and amerindian descent, followed closely by Italians."

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Frank Rizzo says on Feb 13, 2008, 21:57:

Agreed Simon.

august says on Feb 13, 2008, 22:21:

I dunno, here

http://axe-cali.tripod.com/estadisticas-c.htm

it says that as of 2006, Afro-Colombians made up almost 20% of the population. Granted that's nothing compared to coastal cities, but that's significantly higher than in the US and I feel like African-Americans are seen as a sizable segment of the population.

Frank Rizzo says on Feb 13, 2008, 22:33:

Interesting..august....I would have thought less... This has been discussed here many times. IMHO, the non-costal cities are very stratified and racist compared to typical north american cities.

They may not say it to someone's face but they say it behind their back for sure. I hear comments made almost daily from the workers.

Swinn88 says on Feb 13, 2008, 23:07:

August I post a couple of my avorites in your profile.

august says on Feb 13, 2008, 23:25:

Haha, Swinn, I just finished a damn long message in your own profile.

lpdiver says on Feb 14, 2008, 04:22:

Colombia has a lot of laws on their books. I have seen very few of them enforced.

t

"cook some rice!"

arthur brode says on Feb 14, 2008, 04:47:

if you want to see afro-colombians working at Supermarkets or anywhere then come to Cali

http://www.calirentals.net/

Colombiche says on Feb 14, 2008, 05:48:

Well, there is the estrato 6 white or off white shade, closely followed by the slightly olive estrato 5, the olive estrato 4 and so on. Of course you can have the estrato 3 shade (like most colombians do) and be estrato 6 if you have $ and a pretty last name. If you are really dark it doesn't matter how much money you have, you are just "negro con plata".

Conversely, you can be white and poor if you have an "ugly" last name and mispronounce words when you speak.

That is a candid summary of all you need to know about colombian and race. Take it or leave it :)

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

webmanco says on Feb 14, 2008, 05:51:

The most loved afro colombian nowdays is Piedad Córdoba

http://poorbuthappy.com/colombia/post/piedad-cordoba-treasonist/

You could see many afrocolombians practicing law in downtown Bogotá

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

jaramillo says on Feb 14, 2008, 05:52:

Medellin used to be white (Spanish), but no longer (I'm 52 and I remember the Tranvia rails in parque Berrío!). Mestizaje has increased tremendously in the last 40 years with rural migration, desplazados, and influx from Choco. Colombia has wonderful laws and a great constitution, y nos la pasamos por la faja (we don't give a damn). Businesses advertise for girls with good appearance, and the dark ones don't make it. Its a fact of life in Medellin.

Colombiche says on Feb 14, 2008, 05:57:

Jaramillo is very right, the paisas of the past were mostly of spanish (basque, andalucian, galician) descent but there has been an influx of mestizo and african blood in Medellin over the past few decades. If you want to see what the paisas of 60 years ago looked like go to Manizales, Salamina or La Ceja, Sonson, Marinilla, Fredonia....

Plus, to jaramillo's point (about finding employment), if you are not of good appearance you probably won't even get an interview, because your pic must be on the resume.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

tomtom33 says on Feb 14, 2008, 06:24:

And good luck filing that sexual harassment claim when el jefe wants a little.

Monpirri says on Feb 14, 2008, 06:54:

August, I agree with you, Colombia stills a rookie in equal employment opportunity issues and I did notice the same things you have pointed on your comment while visiting Colombia.
Black Colombians do not have the same employment opportunity as whites in Colombia, I am sure this phenomenal still evident in other countries including the most industrialized ones.
Yes, Colombia is still slacking off as the US used to be prior to civil rights movement, and I do not believe that they have this type of law in effect in Colombia's present constitution:

“In the last half-century the constitutional command requiring equal protection of the laws for all people has been critical in the great social movements that have secured equal legal rights for people of color, women, and other groups, in the United States."
http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pubs/rightsof/equal.htm

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

billyb says on Feb 14, 2008, 07:06:

"The most loved afro colombian nowdays is Piedad Córdoba"

Also the most hated, and not just afro-colombian, most hated period.

guacharaca says on Feb 14, 2008, 09:18:

If there are any laws in Colombia, they certainly are not enforced. Employers can pretty much dictate what ever they want. I have seen adverts that discriminate on the basis of sex, estrato, beauty, weight, and height. Furthermore, when the employee gets the job, he/she still may have to wait 6 weeks before they get their first pay check.

Now on the other hand, "Crepes and Waffles" apparently only hires single mothers which could be considered a good thing..

ducaticole says on Feb 14, 2008, 10:36:

About Crepes and Waffles, I've heard the same thing. If that's true, I think that is great. Everytime I've been there, it's packed so the servers probably do quite well with tips too.

I love how you can goto one of the more trendy restaurants in town and eat for $10. The food, especially the desserts, is great too.

Monpirri says on Feb 14, 2008, 12:21:

Good points!
If Colombians are smart enough they should try to implement what Crepes and Waffles and other leading enterprises are doing for their employees.
The problem that Colombia has is that the white paisas are to hang up in being ‘white’ from Europe so they think they are Crème de la Crème.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

Simon says on Feb 14, 2008, 13:10:

Pero como hablan de bien algunos de ustedes sobre su pais, que bellezas!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

Colombiche says on Feb 14, 2008, 13:26:

Simon, no se trata de hablar bien sino de decir la verdad. Cuando existe algun logro por el cual vanagloriarnos yo soy la primera en llenarme la boca, pero si hay cosas que no son tan buenas es mejor enfrentarlas que taparlas. Por tapar y tapar deficiencias y hacernos los de "la oreja mocha" es que estamos en este estado de mediocridad perpetua. Uy si celebremos el clasismo y el racismo, o llenemonos de orgullo porque el 40 y pico porciento de los colombianos viven en la pobreza.

Please.

Bueno, el hecho de que a pesar de nuestros problemas, millones de colombianos sigan trabajando, sonando y luchando por salir adelante es el logro mas grande de todos.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Simon says on Feb 14, 2008, 13:34:

Y crees que estas "enfrentando a las cosas malas" con sacar a relucir nuestros trapos sucios ante el mundo angloparlante? Toca es enfrentarlas en nuestro propio mundo, ante nuestra propia gente, ahi es donde se deben corregir. Con lo otro solo embarramos mas la imagen del pais!

P.D. Happy Valentines Day, linda!

"You want to talk to God? Let's go see him together, I've got nothing better to do."---Indiana Jones (Raiders of the Lost Ark)

webmanco says on Feb 14, 2008, 13:46:

Cómo algo curioso, hoy pregunte a algunos comensales que creian ellos sobre quien ha desplazado más paisanos, La Guerrilla o los paramilitares, las tres personas, dos de ellos de origen campesino en la costa (hoy litigantes de derecho) , dijeron Los Paramilitares.

Será que los medios de comunicacion estan claramente en contra de las Farc y claramente a favor de los Paramilitares? Pienso que sí. Tienen a mucha gente engañada, mientras los de las Farc no son unos santos, los Parmilitares les ganan en corrupcion y maldad.

Claro los residentes en el extranjero también comen cuento, aún así a algunos les haya tocado de cerca la violencia, estan juzgando y mirando para el otro lado, en lugar de atacar de fondo, más no solo de lado la situación.

No veo tanto problema de racismo etnico en Colombio como el ideologico.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

jaramillo says on Feb 14, 2008, 13:50:

Racism is part of life pretty much everywhere I ever lived, and Colombia is no exception.

Colombiche says on Feb 14, 2008, 16:25:

"Y crees que estas "enfrentando a las cosas malas" con sacar a relucir nuestros trapos sucios ante el mundo angloparlante? Toca es enfrentarlas en nuestro propio mundo, ante nuestra propia gente, ahi es donde se deben corregir. Con lo otro somos embarramos mas la imagen del pais!

P.D. Happy Valentines Day, linda!" - Simon

No se trata de sacar a relucir los trapos ante el mundo angloparlante, aunque de alguna manera si lo estoy haciendo.... ejem.... bueno, acepto el regaño hoy porque estoy de buen genio... pero ya rebazaste la cuota del regaño anual hasta el 2009 :P :P

Gracias y feliz dia a ti tambien!

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Rubito says on Feb 14, 2008, 20:44:

A la mierda con ese porqueria. Uno debe sentirse libre de expresarse hasta si es despreciar la misma patria de uno. Tratar de esconder cosas asi del "mundo angloparlante" es FEO FEO FEO y bien indicativo de una PROFUNDA inseguridad y baja auto-estima!!! Por eso odio tanto al nacionalismo en todas sus formas! El orden sobre la verdad?? NO SENOR!! VICEVERSA PORFIS!!!

Diciendo una puta bobada que no hay racismo en Colombia solo le hace a uno perder la credibilidad ante todos, porque esa todo el mundo sabrá que uno esta lleno de mierda si habla así! Si yo fuera Colombiano quisiera que les dijieran a los Colombianos SINCEROS muy antes que les dijieran CORTECES!

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

Monpirri says on Feb 15, 2008, 03:46:

"Racism is part of life pretty much everywhere I ever lived, and Colombia is no exception."
That is true, but Colombia needs to follow what other countries are doing to avoid the racism cancer from further spreading.

Annette Taddeo for US Congress 2008

jaramillo says on Feb 15, 2008, 05:24:

Amen, Rubito.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 15, 2008, 06:33:

Mira rubito en Colombia dicen que lo cortez no quita lo valiente. No hay ninguna necesidad de emplear el lenguaje del bajo mundo para expresar su punto de vista. Lo mismo se puede decir con un lenguaje decente y creo (estoy casi segura) que llega a convencer a mas personas que utilizar un vocabulario gritona y soez.

Pero ya veo que Sr. Rubito definitivamente no sería mi elección para ser un embajador por su pais.

(Lo siento si esto se lee como un ataque personal. No lo es, sino tan solo un advertencia para que entiendan que las reglas de la utilización de palabras excesivamente soeces y vulgares tambien aplican al castellano.)

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

ColombianoGringo says on Feb 15, 2008, 07:23:

Que? Entonces esto se va a poner de que uno ni puede soltar un madrazo sin que lo corrijan? El tono del comentario de Rubito si fue un poco fuerte, pero solo escribió dos groserías. Si así va a ser, me parece un poco pesado e innecesario que lo regañen por semejante bobada. Que aburrido.


Y en cuanto al racismo en Colombia, no hay que pintarlo bonito. Un gran porcentaje de los Colombianos tratan a la gente negra muy mal. El racismo contra ellos es verdaderamente terrible.

Colombiche says on Feb 15, 2008, 13:06:

Bueno.. no se porque este tema siempre genera tanto conflicto.

Que tiene de raro admitir que en nuestro pais hay racismo?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

Rubito says on Feb 15, 2008, 13:43:

"Lo cortez no quita lo valiente" nunca he oido un dicho tan estupido y tan ERRADO en mi vida!!!!

La cortesía EXISTE en la sociedad Colombiana (y muchas otras) precisamente para ENTERRAR A LAS VERDADES INCONVENIENTES. Es un demonio que todo Colombiano (y muchos otros) tiene que ENFRENTAR.

El "bajo mundo", bienvenidos uno a todos al mundo REAL!!. Espero que les gusten el sabor de sangre o otra efluvia humana porque aqui esa es lo que HAY!

Colombiche, should you really be surprised? All Catholic cultures have developed to a fine art the ability to ignore the elephant in the room!

Those sentiments fortunately are part of the OLD Colombia, the one with all the killing and torturing and gross inequalities and injustices. Good riddance I say!

There, not one curse word, I hope you're happy now 8)

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

juancegomez says on Feb 15, 2008, 15:00:

Without repeating too much of what others have said, in this and other racism-related topics...I think you would need an informed lawyer in order to provide the most comprehensive answer to the original question.

Of course, there's the very obvious issue of the actual applicability and implementation of those laws, or whether they are actually known in the first place, but some legal knowledge or at least access to judicial records could illustrate this better as well (how many people actually denounce such discrimination and what legal precedents may have favored them, for example).

Still, I do agree that, in practice, discrimination is still a real problem, not something which can be ignored.

That said, and going partially off-topic...

guacharaca:

"If there are any laws in Colombia, they certainly are not enforced. Employers can pretty much dictate what ever they want. I have seen adverts that discriminate on the basis of sex, estrato, beauty, weight, and height. Furthermore, when the employee gets the job, he/she still may have to wait 6 weeks before they get their first pay check."

While that can happen in several cases, or even many depending on the situation, company or profession....it's too bad that making such a massive generalization is still quite flawed.

There's far more room for variety than just the simple "employers dictate whatever they want (heck...I know some employers who would wish this were the case, but it isn't...definitely not so generally)" or "laws are not enforced (ditto)" concepts imply.

Not to mention that there have been at least a few successful "tutelas" which can and have had positive effects in specific instances of discrimination, even if the underlying mental and social structures and traditions are much harder to "fix".

And now, going even more off-topic...

webmanco:

Me parece que estás mezclando varios temas...

"Cómo algo curioso, hoy pregunte a algunos comensales que creian ellos sobre quien ha desplazado más paisanos, La Guerrilla o los paramilitares, las tres personas, dos de ellos de origen campesino en la costa (hoy litigantes de derecho) , dijeron Los Paramilitares."

Yo también diría lo mismo (los paras son los mayores), pero reiterando que también que hay otros grupos, fuerzas, compañías o individuos involucrados. La ecuación del desplazamiento no tiene solamente dos factores (guerrillas o paracos).

"Será que los medios de comunicacion estan claramente en contra de las Farc y claramente a favor de los Paramilitares? Pienso que sí. Tienen a mucha gente engañada, mientras los de las Farc no son unos santos, los Parmilitares les ganan en corrupcion y maldad."

Hablar así ya es bastante engañoso, sobre todo si tenemos en cuenta que no es únicamente algo que dependa del desplazamiento o, en su defecto, del secuestro. Ambos grupos son capaces de realizar grandes actos de barbarie, para no hablar de los meramente criminales, así lo hagan de diferentes maneras.

Tampoco tendría el tiempo para citar, copiar y pegar todas las noticias sobre las barbaridades paramilitares, tanto presentes como pasadas, que han sido publicadas, comentadas o inclusive mostradas en varios medios escritos, visuales o radiales, y no precisamente de barrio...pero es posible hacer el ejercicio y así demostrar que esa afirmación tuya sobre los medios se queda muy, pero muy corta.

Ahora bien, que los medios principales están mucho más explícitamente en contra de las FARC, dedicando mayor parte de su cubrimiento al tema, ya es otra cosa. Eso sí parece ser cierto.

Pero no creo que sea algo tan simple como buscar "engañar" (?) y no más, al menos no en la mayoría de los casos.

Y finalmente, medir la "corrupción" y la "maldad" es algo muy subjetivo, sobre todo ésta última...sobre todo sin saber si es cuestión de calidad o de cantidad, o mejor de ambas. Yo no creo, en todo caso, que ese esquema sea de utilidad.

"No veo tanto problema de racismo etnico en Colombio como el ideologico."

Si por eso te refieres a lo anterior, pues...no lo veo tan así.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 16, 2008, 01:05:

ColombianoGringo,
that was "pre-emptive strike". Es una discusión muy antigua que tenemos Rubito y yo sobre los limites de lenguaje en un dialogo normal en un foro en el internet. Tenemos opiniones muy diferentes sobre el particular. A mi personalmente no me importan un par de "madrazos" y palabras fuertes pero debo cuidar las normas vigentes de este foro Ademas, pienso que extranjeros cuando aprenden un nuevo idioma no "sienten" la carga semantica de los vocablos ofensivos en su totalidad y tienden exagerarse en sus grocerías porque no lo sienten y porque sus amigos se los han celebrado. Dudo que esto sea el caso de Rubito, sin embargo. El dice que para el, es NORMAL utilizar vulgaridades y obscenidades en su conversacioón y que el debe esforzarse mucho para poder expresarse sin usarlos tambien en Inglés.

Rubito thank you very much for the consideration shown for my request.

"None are more hopelessly enslaved than those who falsely believe they are free." —Johann Wolfgang von Goethe

billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 01:20:

I agree with you Desi. Cussing has it's place when it helps make a cogent point that couldn't otherwise be made with out it, But when it is used to try to intimmidate, or to mask a less than intelligent argument, it's very weak>

tomtom33 says on Feb 16, 2008, 03:30:

Or simply when it is overused. A few obscenities, tastefully sprinkled in, add flavor.

Colombiche says on Feb 16, 2008, 14:59:

The proper use of obsenities is an art. They must be used very very seldom and at precisely the right moment. They sound a lot better if they are totally unexpectedly nested amidst an otherwise classy sentence or slide off your lips in the heat of passion.

I find that overusing obscenities:

1) Makes the lose their shock value
2) Conjures up negative feelings in the listener
3) Makes you look rather unimaginative (unless your obsenities are extremely creative).

I also agree that grocerias sometimes are used to mask the lack of a valid argument.

This is by no means a critique of anybody's mode of expressing themselves (to each his own), just my take on the subject.

Okay bye bye now.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

webmanco says on Feb 16, 2008, 15:57:

There is lack of oportunities for most Colombians, oportunty to excell to get good resources in order to investigate, invent etc. It seems in order to be "Profeta" most need to go out the country.


http://www.eltiempo.com/vidadehoy/gente/noticias/ARTICULO-WEB-NOTA_INT...

En diciembre, Raúl Cuero convirtió a Manizales en sede del primer campamento internacional científico para jóvenes


Foto, Sergiio Acevedo

Raúl Cuero fue galardonado por una investigación en la que con un material sintético similar en 80 por ciento al suelo de Marte demostró sus propiedades purificadoras frente a agentes radiactivos.

Cuero, hijo de una lavandera y un cargador de bultos en Buenaventura, dice haber sacado su creatividad de las precariedades de su infancia.

Este científico e investigador colombiano, que se crió entre ranchos de bahareque y cemento limpio, mostró que del planeta Marte se pueden traer importantes beneficios a este mundo.

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am

slguy says on Feb 16, 2008, 16:00:

I agree completely, CB. For me, overuse of obscenities just indicates a serious lack of vocabulary.

But there're times when nothin' else will do. ;)

Before you throw me out, make sure I pay my bar tab

Rubito says on Feb 16, 2008, 18:59:

Nothing wrong with my vocabulary.

---Violence is the price of freedom.---

DodgerDogs says on Feb 16, 2008, 21:59:

I set next to Oscar Echeverry on Avianca flight # 48 ( 2-09-2008) , he plays pro soccer for a living, and he told me the reason he was signing with the N.Y Redbulls is he was tired of the prejudice in Colombia's pro sport world, the money was about 30 million pesos a year less
he singed for, but he said no more biggots. he lives in Poblado, Medellin and said until they know who he is, people always first treat him as low class black.

Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things that matter.Martin Luther King:

Robert Jorge says on Feb 16, 2008, 22:18:

I hope he has a good experience in the US.

Unfortunately, he may experience some of the same thing in the US. Out of uniform - hell, even in uniform - some people will see him as a Spanish speaking, dark skinned black guy with corn rows. But I am sure it will be a lot easier for him here in the US than in Paisalandia.

billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 23:36:

One thing you can say about gringos, if they are true sports fans (most), is that when it comes to sports, race goes out the window.

goin_south says on Feb 16, 2008, 23:41:

you can't say that though, about NASCAR!

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

billyb says on Feb 16, 2008, 23:44:

i'm talking real sports, jeje.

goin_south says on Feb 16, 2008, 23:52:

like... chasing caleñas

why can't the freakin Chung King Chinese just LEAVE THE FREAKN DOLLY LLAMA and Tibet ... ALONE!

webmanco says on Feb 17, 2008, 02:52:

Predujice in most parts of the world is not just against dark skinned guys i/o negros, I arrived to a hotel in Tolima, I was tired and dirty from driving a Motorcicle for long hours, my looks were not that good on that particular night, I saw some kind of defensiveness and the look from the owners like we don´t have rooms left.

Only after they saw I could pay their room and let me talk for a while only then they will treat me like a good customer. Now when I stay there I am well treated.

Some times it takes time to get to know people regardless of sex, race or beliefs

But, I'm going to start making some assumptions here.... Which means I might actually end up making an ass out of myself ..........Thu 04 17, 2008 11:34 am