Putting military on all the roads will not stop crime

kikiortiz11 says on Jan 31, 2005, 14:22:

alternatives? Then what should the alternative be? Remember these are not guerrillas that we are talking about anymore. They have no more ideology. They are there for the money only. They are terrorists and the only way to rid them is by force.

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

Lionheart says on Jan 31, 2005, 14:37:

one alternative Like many other posters, I see complaints about this or that government needing to take care of things ... like here prevent guerillas from finding new sources of income. Most of these posters don't live in Colombia now. This reminds me of a slogan from a few years back:

What can you do for your country?

Instead of talking about action, go and take part in the action.

Albatross says on Jan 31, 2005, 15:14:

FARC Lore Actually, I believe the main reason that the guerrillas turned to kidnapping was that much of their funding came from the drug cartels (not Russia or Cuba). After the death of Escobar in '93 the economic power of the cartels (especially the Medellin cartel) diminished, so the guerrillas turned more to kidnapping and sundry crimes to remain in existence. Unfortunately for their “cause� (they did have a fair amount of popular support in the eighties), kidnapping the “common folk� caused their popular support to wane drastically. Now, they are perceived by most Colombianos as common criminals instead of revolutionaries.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

Gary Hall says on Jan 31, 2005, 16:30:

lionheart John Kennedy, Inauguration, 1962 Ask not what your country can do for you but what you can do for your country.

lpdiver says on Jan 31, 2005, 17:57:

The military Is one of the largest crime elements in Colombia...So no this isn't the solution.

"cook some rice!"

dwmte says on Jan 31, 2005, 18:07:

once again.... i'm reminded of that addage...'regime change starts at home'.

dwm

Lionheart says on Jan 31, 2005, 18:10:

I remember, Gary I was still living in the USA then, I was very young, 6, but my Grandparents watched TV and I saw him say it. I also remember the day he was killed, being sent home from school, etc. I also remember "Ich bin ein Berliner" ...

crispeta says on Jan 31, 2005, 20:52:

Happy to see the military I was just in Colombia during the month of december, and I went up to Sapsurro. This was the first time in 5 years of going to Colombia that I could see a diffrence with the security. It is easy for us Gringos and Europeones to critize Uribe and his policies, but to really understand what the Colombian people have gone through. I would rather see the military than the paramilitaries, but after the all of them disarm the next day they will be in the military. As long as there is a demand for speedballs of smack and coke the crime will be a part of the trade. Legalizing drugs will drop the price and the business of funding the FARC and ELN.

YEP says on Feb 1, 2005, 03:03:

Wrong Lionheart ........
He said it with the local accent/variation.

"Ick/Ik bin aijn Berlinar" (all misspellings fully intentional)



-------------------------------------------------------------------
Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

------------------------------------------------------------------- Just another scandinavian getting ready to explore South America

greenday says on Feb 1, 2005, 03:37:

guns in every car I think it should be mandatory in colombia that every passenger should be armed with at least a sawed-off shotgun, and maybe an uzi (as per gingoinbogota). Recruiting for FARC will go down dramatically (as will kidnapping) when, at one of the FARC roadblocks, the FARC soldier who is stopping the car is greeted with a shot gun blast to the face.
I was scoffed at by some fellows in another thread regarding gun control, and how a FARC-like guerrilla group would never be successful in the United States. This is the reason why, OUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS. I'd love to see a couple of FARC guys show up at my house or place of business here in the US to extort money from me. They would be greeted in a manner similar as above.

Atrevido says on Feb 1, 2005, 04:55:

That came up just yesterday when I visited my doctor for an annual check up and to get the letter required for a gun permit. He was saying a gun isn’t as usefull nowadays as it used to be. It’s ok for scaring off two or three guys but when there are ten and they have machine guns it’s better to leave it in the drawer. He was among those kidnapped by the ELN at Kilometro Dieziocho a few years ago. (They let him go after a few hours because he was too old to walk through the mountains.) There was an incident reported yesterday in El Pais in the Justicias section that took place in a small community outside Vijes. That’s about ten minutes past Yumbo on the Via Panamericana route from Cali up to Buga. Ten heavily armed guys in two trucks entered the village in the morning and held the whole community hostage for eight hours. They beat some people up but didn’t kill anybody. In the end they stole some expensive cattle and everybodys money and left. Two were caught at a checkpoint and it turned out the group were dilicuentes comunes from Cali. There were probably some shot guns in the village but nobody pulled them out knowing they were way outgunned.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 09:05:

Greenday and GIB -- stated it well While nobody relishes the thought of turning a society into an armed populace, desperate times call for desperate measures. It is intuitively obvious that peace and stability cannot be achieved with the FARC through negotiation. That being the case, what other options are there but force.

The bottom line is that if a FARC member stopping a car on the road would be met with some type of assault weapon amed at his head, he might be less likely to stop you to begin with.

madman says on Feb 1, 2005, 09:20:

Instead of paying soldiers to protect Colombians they need to use the money for a road side beautification project.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 10:11:

Badbart "a road side beautification project"

Really?? I am sure that will save a lot of lives. Maybe that will calm the nerves of the FARC, and make them less likely to kidnapp/kill people. Great idea. Ah..yea...sure

ColombianoX says on Feb 1, 2005, 10:21:

Viva Uribe!!!! "Uribe has brought security through force to Colombia and everyone can see it but some refuse to give the man credit for it. If not Uribe then can someone tell me why have things gotten safer here in Colombia?"

I can't believe it but I've never been in more agreement with GringoinBogota! It is without a doubt thanks to President Uribe's leadership that Colombia is getting better. I guess those who criticize him must miss "the good ol' days" when they couldn't even travel between most cities without fear of getting kidnapped or murdered. Viva Uribe!!!!!


CX

ColombianoX 'Defensor de la Colombianidad'

madman says on Feb 1, 2005, 11:36:

"a road side beautification project" Its a joke. I was pointing out how clueless this guy is.

ARMacleod says on Feb 1, 2005, 12:25:

"a road side beautification project" (2) God that was a good one, I like it, it would be as good as hanging baskets in Baghdad. The people would be so happy that they would welcome the USA and UK soldiers like they threw down the palms for Jesus. Just before they crucified him.

JOKE! Before I also am condemned.

Again the initial poster has shown just what a Merchant Banker he is.

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 12:41:

the wild wild west So if I understood correctly, if you survive the road block by blowing off the guy's head (what about the other 8 guys hiding with guns aimed at you, turning you into swiss cheese?) you return to your finca, ring the bell, and the other farmers head over with their guns, you form a posse, and head into the jungle after the other members of the road block. Or in this case you head into Cali into the district where a few hundred other gang members live. Not to mention their former enemies would be their best friends suddenly.

This doesn't work anymore, not in the USA, not in Colombia. It doesn't even work anymore in the most remote locations of Northern Iraq where the Kurds live. Even if you managed to kill one guy at the road block and get away, you and your family would not be safe for a single day for the rest of your life. Self-justice is romantic cowboy-lore. Let Uribe take care of them, if you wanna help join the army.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 12:53:

Lionheart....I think that..... we are talking in the general sense. Let me put it this way.
Here in this country, states like Florida and Texas have what are commonly known as "Conceal anc carry laws". These essentiall allow a private citizen to carry a fire arm upon him in public. Of course, there are several requirements that have to be met to be elegible for the privildge of doing so.

However, in study after study, and without exception, general street crime has been dramaticaly reduced as a result of the enactment of these types of laws. Therefore there is something to be said about the deterent affect that exists as a result

ARMacleod says on Feb 1, 2005, 13:00:

Talk, and more talk. I will reiterate, think to yourself, What would the Lone Ranger and Tonto do? All this is pie in the sky.

It will take at least another fifty years if ever, before Colombia is anywhere nearly as settled as places like Switzerland. By then the rest of the world will have moved on by fifty years.

All this theorising by the theorists and prognosticating by the prognosticators diagnosis by the diagnosticians will not make one iota of difference to the situation.

Positive and decisive activity by the dedicated pacificators will however make a difference.

Don't Talk - Walk.

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 13:08:

US gun laws will go off-topic for PBH It is best to draw a line here before this thread goes to hell.

In Colombia we are not talking about general street crime, so the analogy won't work.

Plus everybody living in a nation with strict gun laws will jump into your faces proving their POV, that strict gun laws are more efficient, by pointing at their own countries.

Let's please draw the line here on this topic, it will lead nowhere.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 13:16:

Hold a minute.....Lionheart We are just speaking in theory and in the broader sense. My comment addresses how the concept of "fighting fire with fire" works in certain situations.

I as a Colombian, are sick and tired of these SOB's terrorizing our country and it's people. There is no negotiating with a bunch of murderers who lack any ability to, in a way to, bring a peacefull resolution to the situation that now plagues Colombia.

In summary, drastic times call for drastic measures.

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 13:40:

of course all are tired, that is good This is why most people applaud Uribe's hard line.

Nobody responded to the thread I posted before last yet. The drastic measures would only result in drastic moves against the civil population, as the past proves. The guerillas would only become more brutal, kill first, then rob. Now they come and mainly just rob, maybe beat up a few people. Self-help would only increase the violence in general.

Uribe's tactics and strategies are working, he needs more support using a centralized force to clamp down on the guerillas. I read in an article this morning where 14 marines where killed by homemade rockets in Narino in Southern Colombia. One statement made there shows me a very interesting addition to protection:

"Some of the troops at the base were so-called campesino marines, or peasant marines, who are natives of the area where they are stationed and who receive three months of military training.

The deployment of thousands of campesino troops in Colombia to protect their own villages and farms from the rebels is a major component of hardline President Alvaro Uribe's strategy to bring Colombia's 40-year-old insurgency to its knees. "

So instead of getting arms on your own and forming posses, join the military forces and cooperate with the military. You get better weapons, communications, and support. I think over time this will work out better than doing nothing, or trying to do something on your own.

greenday says on Feb 1, 2005, 17:32:

sorry Lionheart At times the price of freedom is very steep. Many lives have to be sacrificed to live in a free society. Right now Colombia still isn't a free society. I disagree with your wild wild west post. A guerilla group like FARC could never survive here in the US, not so much for our military & law enforcement, but for our private citizens who would rise up, take up their arms and defeat them. Too bad the same thing can't happen in Colombia, but I can understand why it doesn't.
A couple of quotes from some of our country's great patriots that I think you may have forgotten:

"Give me liberty or give me death"
"I regret that I have but one life to give for my country"

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 17:45:

greenday most US Americans have become lazy and call for the cops and lawyers first ... I don't see them doing much for their country anymore. And if some tried to do anything, they would wind up in jail for breaking some law. I don't see any posses heading into gang-infested areas in any city and cleaning up.

All these proud quotes from the founding fathers ... I am hearing them here everyday ... but looking at the sad reality I see them spinning in their graves.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 17:46:

Greenday.....I agree with you too! It has become apparant to most Colombians that the government is impotent when it comes to resolving this ongoing problem. Do you realize that Colombian is a country of 35-39 million people. The acural number is irrelevant. There are maybe 25-30 FARC forces. Evenf if there were 50,000 FARC forces (which clearly there are not) it is utterly absurd that the majority of the people should by terrorized and held hostage by these people. Am I reccomending Anarchy? No I am not although to you it may sound like it. But I will say this, something has to be done and soon!!! Therefore, if it means giving common people guns so that they can drive down a country road with frearing for their lives, I say arm em' and shoot em' dead.

In the end, if enough of these characters are shown what the ramifications are for theri "miracle fishing" operations, they will learn what it's like when you catch the wrong fish. Sometimes they fight back, and might even pull you in and drag you under.

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 17:50:

Lionheart...we don't have to take up arms Americans have a functioning Police system, with viable courts that are not affraid to send people away. In Colombia, the police don't run the FARC, the FARC runs the police.....that is a little different.

Like I said earlier, in states where they have conceal and carry, Americans already have the opportunity to take justice into their own hands if and when the need to do so should ever arrise

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 18:02:

Gomez help me out with the term soldados camposinos I have heard, the other thread is also about them in the War forum. From what I understand it is a way to get military trained people in the villages so they can protect themselves and get military help easier.

You keep stating about driving down a country road with a gun to shoot a robber at a road block. Nobody so far as answered my question about the other robbers covering that robber, pointing their guns at you. If you have no gun, they might just rob you. If you try to use that gun, they will kill you. Now you are wearing the pink glasses toting a gun in cowboy style.

As a US lawyer you should have access to statistics concering crimes and accidents commited with guns. Maybe Tinto can help here as well. I recall reading statistics that show an incredible high number of gun-related accidents in the USA, many more than the actual usage in self-defense or for crimes.

lpdiver says on Feb 1, 2005, 18:12:

All in all it is pretty much the same thing Get the weapons into the hands of the common man and the militias will form with government organization or not.

T

"cook some rice!"

Gomezman5 says on Feb 1, 2005, 18:20:

Lionheart--- I have to run for now but a few points. I think if the Robber/FARC member knows that the guy in the car has a gun or assault rifle, I don't think that you are going to have to many roadside attacks to begin with. Would you approach a car if you knew there was a better than average chance your head was going to get blown off?? Maybe, there is a risk that the background guys will come after you if you blow away the principal robber. Lionheart, these guys who stop the cars, don't just rob, they kidnap you. If you are going to get kidnapped, there is a good chance you are going to get killed. So who in the hell is going to worry about some background criminals, when the only issue that is important is the guy who poses a risk to your life here and now??? Maybe you are right in some respect. Then a gun will not be good enough and they should drive around with an uzi sub machine gun, so that the driver can quickly blow away everyone in vicinity. I would bet you that if the FARC and others who reek terrorism on Colombia's country roads thought that people were drivning the countryside with Uzi's, you would cut down on a lot of robberies and kidnappings. It may not eliminate it, but it sure would make a huge dent into the problem. Look, if I have a guard dog in my yard, it may not completely prevent a burglary, but it sure would act as a big deterent and make it far less likely that you will be burglarized.

There are already numerous study that have shown how crime in every are has been reduced in states where they have conceal and carry laws.
That issue need not evn be questioned here. The net has a large body of evidence that has proven that point already.

greenday says on Feb 1, 2005, 18:39:

Lionheart comparing FARC with gangs in US cities is absurd, and to me an insult to what the Colombian people have had to endure over the last 15 years or so with this civil war. (even though it's been going on for 40 years). VERY FEW citizens in the US are touched by any kind of gang activity, however everyday Colombian citizens must worry about getting kidnapped or killed by guerrilla factions while making just a simple journey from one city to another, or while vacationing during the holidays. Yes, it's not as bad as it was, but please Lionheart, don't make an absurd comparison like that. The US had NEVER seen anything like FARC, a violent, heartless, left-wing rebel group, hell bent on taking over the government. OUR RIGHT TO BEAR ARMS WAS DESIGNED by the shapers of our constitution to prevent such groups from taking over. Please Lionheart, maybe you need a review of history 101. I'll tell you, just north of where I live, in the north Georgia mountains, if a FARC group tried to start something with Bubba and the boys, I guaran-damn-tee-you that Bubba and the boys would put something up FARC's ass that they would NEVER forget. Lionheart, I think you need a reality check.
Don't compare a few gang thugs that touch barely .0005% of the American population to a rebel group like FARC who has and is continuing to ruin a great country like Colombia.

kernow62 says on Feb 1, 2005, 20:08:

Gomezman I am beginning to wonder about whether the courts in the US are much more than a joke.

Today in Orlando a wealthy local doctor who was captured on video hiring an undercover police officer to bump off a business associate received zero jail time, nada, he received a light community service sentence and has to wear an ankle bracelet for a year.

A local politician driving a government car was pulled over for DUI, he was kindly driven home by the police, the rest of the drunks go to jail.

Last week the mayor of a community just north of Orlando is answering allegations that he used the police to arrest his enemies on trumped up charges.

Just like anywhere else if you have money you can get away with murder.

Lionheart says on Feb 1, 2005, 20:21:

I am dropping the topic The debate about US Americans and their right to own and use arms leads to nowhere. I have had this discussion too often already elsewhere. It implies all other nations on the planet with laws against owning weapons are wrong. It is a US holy grail and I will not touch it anymore.

cagringo says on Feb 1, 2005, 23:54:

military sentrys ??? more military means that more people will have to supplement the soldier's monthly income...know what i mean?

greenday says on Feb 2, 2005, 03:37:

lionheart I don't blame you because your arguments lack logic, so I can see why you are frustated. Comparing the United States in this regard with other countries is another flawed comparison. Just know that if you ever come to my house and spend the night, chances are you'll be VERY safe...I'm not sure how safe I would feel about spending the night at your house. Do YOU own a gun?

Albatross says on Feb 2, 2005, 04:29:

Guns... I have no problem with citizens bearing arms, but in most situations, it doesn't actually make them any safer. Guns are primarily offensive weapons, and if your strategy is simple defense, they're not all that effective. Unless you plan on walking around 24/7 with your gun unholstered and ready to fire, it is still almost impossible to avoid ambush. Even if you had your gun drawn, it's still surprisingly easy for someone to come up behind you or otherwise surprise you and what good is your gun then ?

And concerning home defense... it doesn't matter how many guns you have in your house if someone wakes you up in the middle of the night with a shotgun in your face.

You ain't Rambo... if someone really wants to kill you, you're dead.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

greenday says on Feb 2, 2005, 05:59:

albatross I like my chances of surviving better with a gun by my side. No one said that guns were a cure all to prevent getting killed. Just read my posts for what they are, without adding things that you invent in your mind. You guys need to get real...

Lionheart says on Feb 2, 2005, 15:08:

My point Albatross I feel safer in a house without a gun-toting Rambo living in it. I have survived 48 years in dangerous and safe areas without a gun. I avoid situations where guns can be involved. According to greenday the USA seems much more dangerous than Colombia in this regard, only feeling safe if you can wear a gun and be ready to kill somebody with it. No fear greenday, I don't intend inviting you over for the night. My doors are unlocked and I wouldn't want you hiding in a corner with a gun on your lap all night, because somebody could walk in on you.

lpdiver says on Feb 2, 2005, 15:19:

Lionheart Though you were dropping the subject...My wife was uncomfortable in the house with the guns. I educated her about them and now shes a pistol packing Paisa!!!

A dog is a good accessory to a gun. Small yappy dogs make the best watch dogs...Nobody enters my yard without my knowing.

The local constable was more than slightly at the last intruder I summoned him to retrieve. He had never seen a cajun with nothing but boxers and cowboy boots and holster sitting atop a burgler before...To be honest I think he hopes he never see it again. LMAO

To each his own


Tony

"cook some rice!"

VanMan says on Feb 12, 2005, 13:07:

guns Well - this is getting completely off topic, but I don't think there's such a need to have guns. The more guns that are in Colombia the more chances of people using it for criminal activities. The only people that needs guns are : 1) police 2)military 3)hunters (hunting rifles). A 'hunter' doesn't need a semi-automatic weapon or hand gun. For those people who think having a gun makes you feel safer? example 1) Get into an ultrication with someone who has a knife, you pull out your gun, he gets scared off. That guy goes and gets a gun to rob the next person. 2) two people try to rob you (1 has a gun other has it concealed) and you pull out your gun, shoot one guy the other guy shoots you.

Sure glad you had your gun eh? Is your life worth the $50,$200,$500,$1000 you may lose of cash/material items? Guns are so prevalent in the United States...if you think carrying a gun will make you feel safer I suggested you to visit some areas of Detroit and Chicago with your gun and head held high.

If a person has a dispute and wants to 'kill someone' but really doesn't and has access to a gun, that person might go and just use that gun and then regret killing them, but only wanting to wound them (yes you could say the same thing about knives, but a knife doesnt have a trigger and you can stand at a distance to shoot a gun).

Though I am not Colombian, I suggest people who want to help out their country (Colombia,USA), join the police/military that helps protects the citizens.

Vigilante justice of the wild west was needed because there weren't enough law enforcement to police the wild west. Guns put into the constitution of the U.S. has created so many massacres from Waco to Columbine. There aren't bears trying to attack you in your house anymore, guns should be outlawed.

ARMacleod says on Feb 12, 2005, 14:51:

I agree. Napalm is the answer.

Cordite and G20, perhaps the smell of 'marzipan' in the air?

Being of unsound mind and dubious disposition, I cannot be held legally liable for any indiscretions."¡El diablo me hizo hacerlo!" But don't worry, be happy.

The brain is like a parachute, it only functions correctly when it is open. Pax vobiscum.

greenday says on Feb 14, 2005, 13:06:

Lionheart I think the different between my house and your house is: when a potential burgler drives by your house he says to himself "ain't nothin' in that shack that would be worthwhile beakin' into for", but when a potential burgler drives by my house he says to himself "JACKPOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

utopiacowboy says on Feb 14, 2005, 14:51:

Speak for yourself, Vanman. When I lived in Utopia we had mountain lions and coyotes not to mention wild dogs, all reason enough to have a gun handy.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

Dolfi says on Feb 15, 2005, 04:43:

The FARC aren´t afraid to attack the military, and theay have a lot of guns. Why should they be afraid to attack a normal citizen with a gun (ánd most probably without much experience in usíng it)?

lpdiver says on Feb 15, 2005, 15:54:

Dolfi Go to the following link and read about the FARC and their recruiting methods. They use babies to do their fighting. If a few of the relatives of these children were armed an willing to stand up then maybe the FARC could be defeated. It won't be easy, fast, or without a great deal of bloodshed: but they have the blood shed alreadly so the cancer needs to be removed.

www.hrw.org/reports/2003/colombia0903/ - 13k


Tony

"cook some rice!"

kamilo says on Feb 15, 2005, 17:48:

this is a dumb topic, simply because this has already happened in Colombia, people taking justice by their own, or tell me what are the PARAMILITARES. Basically they were ppl who decided to ffight FARC, now look what has happened they became as bad(if not worse)as the FARC they were fightin.
so in my humble opinion the right to bear arms is the most stupid law that the USA has now.

lpdiver says on Feb 16, 2005, 04:40:

Kamilo Yout average Colombian does not have firearms. So only those outside the law have them. EVERYONE needs to have them! When only the bad guys have guns and there is no viable police force and legal system how is Joe Average going to defend itself?

If you are going to bother forming an opinion; why be humble?

I could name a few dozen immigration laws that far outstip the right to bear arms in their degree of stupidity. Colombia has an excellent constitution...on paper. When they can bring it to practice in life the need for arms will be past.


Tony

"cook some rice!"