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Por qué marchar el 6 de marzo

Rodrigo Uprimmy contraargumenta a los mamertos de derecha que se oponen a la marcha del 6.

Le faltó un contraargumento. La marcha tiene a un convocante principal, que es Iván Cepeda, activista de derechos humanos con hoja de vida impecable. Cepeda es él mismo víctima del paramilitarismo: A su padre, Manuel Cepeda, secretario del partido comunista colombiano, lo asesinaron los paracos. Las FARC bautizaron uno de sus frentes con el nombre de Manuel Cepeda. Se concluye entonces, en la extraña lógica de la mamertera de derecha colombiana, que la marcha es convocada por las FARC.

Si uno se va a guiar por la gente que las FARC admira, entonces ahí sí estaría jodido Uribe, porque los paracos bien podrían ponerle su nombre a una de sus cuadrillas. Y si lo hicieran, o peor, si le pusieran el nombre de su padre, ¿habría que condenar al presidente? Obvio que no. Pero esas obviedades se les pasan por alto a quienes sólo ven su propia ideología.

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El imperativo de marchar el 6 de marzo
Los ciudadanos debemos solidarizarnos con todas las víctimas y condenar todas las barbaridades de la misma manera, sin introducir jerarquías entre ellas

Por Rodrigo Uprimny*

Fecha: 02/23/2008 -1347

Es claro que las guerrillas no han tenido el monopolio de la crueldad y que el secuestro no es el único crimen que agobia a los colombianos. Los grupos paramilitares y ciertos agentes estatales han cometido igualmente atrocidades indecibles. Por ello, así como el pasado 4 de febrero muchos ciudadanos protestamos contra las guerrillas y el secuestro, existe un imperativo ético y político de marchar el próximo 6 de marzo, para expresar nuestra solidaridad con las víctimas de los paras y del Estado y para manifestar nuestro rechazo de todos los atentados contra la dignidad humana que ocurren en Colombia.

Esta nueva marcha es entonces una gran oportunidad para que la sociedad colombiana supere esa suerte de asimetría moral, que la lleva a protestar masivamente contra las FARC y el secuestro, pero a mostrarse más silenciosa e indolente frente a los crímenes de los paramilitares o de ciertos agentes estatales.

Esa asimetría es éticamente inaceptable, pues rompe con el principio de universalidad, según el cual, conforme a la conocida fórmula kantiana, toda persona debe comportarse de tal manera que su regla de conducta individual pueda realmente valer como una norma universal y válida para todos. La aplicación de ese principio ético al análisis de las crueldades en Colombia debe conducirnos a una conclusión simple: los ciudadanos debemos solidarizarnos con todas las víctimas y condenar todas las barbaridades de la misma manera, sin introducir jerarquías entre ellas. Y por ello debemos marchar, cada vez que podamos, para expresar nuestro rechazo a las atrocidades que ocurren en nuestro país.

Es por eso que resulta cuestionable la postura del gobierno y de algunos columnistas que apoyaron vehementemente la marcha del pasado 4 de febrero pero se han opuesto vigorosamente a la del próximo 6 de marzo. Y es que ninguna de las razones dadas por el gobierno o por los columnistas que sostienen esa postura asimétrica parece realmente convincente.

Dicen que la marcha del 6 de marzo sería ilegítima por ser supuestamente de las FARC, ya que ha sido apoyada por ANNCOL. Pero esa razón es inaceptable pues el gobierno no dejó de apoyar la marcha del 4 de febrero, a pesar de que algunos líderes paras, como Mancuso, también alentaron esa movilización.

Dicen que la marcha del 6 de marzo busca o podría reducir el impacto de la condena ciudadana a las FARC del 4 de febrero. Pero eso no es obligatoriamente así; la protesta contra los paras o contra los crímenes de agentes estatales no implica reducir el rechazo a las FARC ni al secuestro. Simplemente es una condena simétrica a todos los atentados contra la dignidad humana que ocurren en Colombia. Es pues una movilización complementaria a la movilización del 4 de febrero, que busca que no nos quedemos a media marcha en nuestra condena a todas las atrocidades en Colombia.

Dicen que la marcha del 6 de marzo es mentirosa pues denuncia crímenes del Estado que no han ocurrido. Pero difícilmente hoy se puede negar lo que está judicialmente documentado no sólo en sentencias de la Corte Interamericana sino también en diligencias adelantadas por nuestros propios funcionarios judiciales. Esos procesos han mostrado no sólo la participación directa de algunos funcionaros públicos en crímenes atroces sino, además, la responsabilidad que cabe a nuestro Estado en el desarrollo del paramilitarismo. Y eso configura un crimen de Estado, pues compromete la responsabilidad jurídica y política del Estado colombiano, sin que con esta afirmación uno esté avalando la tesis de que en Colombia existe un terrorismo de Estado;

Dicen que la marcha es una bofetada a la Fuerza Pública que combate a los grupos armados ilegales con enormes sacrificios. Pero que uno proteste contra unos crímenes del Estado no significa que uno marche contra todo el Estado ni contra las Fuerzas Armadas como institución. Es más, estoy convencido de a quien más conviene que esos crímenes sean denunciados, rechazadas y sancionados es al Gobierno y a las propias Fuerzas Armadas, a fin de mostrar que las violaciones a los derechos humanos no son una política de Estado.

Dicen que no tiene sentido protestar contra los paras, pues el paramilitarismo ya estaría desmontado y sus líderes estarían presos y confesando sus crímenes. Pero no sólo no es nada claro que el paramilitarismo esté desarticulado sino que, incluso si fuera así, de todos modos es esencial que la ciudadanía exprese el rechazo a las atrocidades de esos grupos y apoye los reclamos de verdad, justicia y reparación de sus víctimas.

Dicen que la nueva marcha es innecesaria pues la movilización del 4 de febrero habría tenido un alcance más global que el previsto por sus organizadores y habría significado una condena a todas las atrocidades que ocurren en Colombia. Y es cierto que ese 4 de febrero algunos marchamos en defensa de la vida y rechazando todas las crueldades; pero la gran mayoría entendió la marcha exclusivamente como una protesta contra las FARC y el secuestro, y por ello es razonable que las otras víctimas hayan convocado una movilización contra los otros crímenes.

Dicen que la marcha del 6 de marzo es poco táctica y creativa, pues no sólo copia la movilización anterior sino que ignora que existe un cierto agotamiento ciudadano después de la enorme protesta del 4 de febrero. Y es posible que sea así; pero el hecho es que la marcha del 6 de marzo ya fue convocada, precisamente para superar las limitaciones de la marcha del 4 de febrero y aprovechar la ola de indignación ciudadana actual. Nuestro deber es entonces apoyarla y no quedar agotados, a media marcha.

Dicen que la nueva marcha nos llevaría a una imposible movilización permanente, pues si se protesta también contra los paras y los crímenes del Estado, habría que manifestarse también para rechazar el narcotráfico, la desigualdad, la pobreza o la corrupción. Pero no sólo no estaría mal que los colombianos también nos movilizáramos contra esos otros males, sino que en este caso la protesta del 6 de marzo tiene un sentido obvio: superar la inaceptable asimetría que los colombianos tenemos frente a las distintas víctimas y a las diversas atrocidades.

Las principales objeciones a la marcha del 6 de marzo no son entonces convincentes. Por ello, salvo que a uno le preocupen únicamente las atrocidades y las víctimas de la guerrilla, existe un imperativo ciudadano de apoyar esta nueva movilización contra la crueldad. Una solidaridad igualitaria con todas las víctimas y una condena simétrica a todas las atrocidades es no sólo un imperativo ético sino que parece un prerrequisito para una verdadera reconciliación entre los colombianos. Por el contrario, la indolencia frente a ciertas víctimas y la condescendencia frente a ciertos crímenes tienden a perpetuar y acentuar nuestros enfrentamientos.

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(*) Rodrigo Umprimny es Director del centro de estudios de Derecho, Justicia y Sociedad “DeJuSticia�?(www.dejusticia.org) fue creado en 2003 por un grupo de profesores universitarios, para contribuir a debates sobre el derecho, las instituciones y las políticas públicas, con base en estudios rigurosos que promuevan la formación de una ciudadanía sin exclusiones y la vigencia de la democracia, el Estado social de derecho y los derechos humanos.

By Sr Tertius on Feb 24, 2008, 10:11 in Politics & the war.

Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 11:21:

Más razones, como si hicieran falta.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:11:

The perversity of the Carimagua deal is beyond comprehension. The cynicism of the minister defending the turning over the land destined for displaced people is apalling. Uribe is showing his true colors after all these years ...

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:14:

Agree. I don't know how the minister can present his argument with a straight face.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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robi666 says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:16:

Too absurd... after days, I am still trying to realize if I am missing something.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:47:

Robi: I've heard it from all reasonable sources, including multiple interviews to Arias. He seems to be convinced that his logic is right. Fortunately, very few have been persuaded.

I'll venture this analogy; I wish I could offer it personally to the minister. Imagine I kick him out of his house at gun point. For some reason, the government legalizes the property to me, and to appease the minister, he is offered another house. Then the government realizes that I (or some of my friends) can actually make better use of the newly assigned house. I may even hire the minister to work as my butler in what was assigned to be his house--I'm generous, so I'd probably pay him better as a butler than his ministerial job does. How can I be so generous? Because stealing houses is good business!

As Desi says: perverse.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:51:

I've got the story in English now, on a new thread.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:52:

I agree. That was big "descachada".
However, marcha and Carimagua are 2 completely separated subjects.
So the march against paras is also to protest agains Carimagua?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 12:58:

No Jorge, they're closely related. Because the march is not so much against paracos but to demonstrate solidarity with their victims and the victims of state crimes.

http://www.movimientodevictimas.org/node/549

THESE are those victims. The march is for them.

Besides, I wouldn't call this a "descachada." That's an accident. This was planned, this is state policy.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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vicshere says on Feb 24, 2008, 13:00:

if they got ride of all the bad guys then everyone could go back to their own home and land

listo

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 24, 2008, 13:05:

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"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Feb 24, 2008, 13:06:

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"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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tasco66 says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:01:

The problem with this march is that it is organized by those who boycotted the NO MAS FARC march. Furthermore they organized it only after they realized the enormous success and the international coverage of the NO MAS FARC march, something that obviously took them by surprise. So to boycott a peace march, then when seeing your boycott failed, organize another march is not very convincing for me.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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goin_south says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:10:

JMO... THE PEOPLE THAT ORGANIZED THE MARCH ON FEBRUARY FOURTH SHOULD BE DOING IT .... ALL...OVER....AGAIN....

.....on the same day ... March 6.. only with double the amount of people they had on Feb 4.

Where do we go from here?

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goin_south says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:10:

Saucey? LilaM? ... Facebook?
You guys can't stop with ONLY THAT ONE FEBRUARY...MARCH.

(jaj.. well, ...)

Where do we go from here?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:16:

Nice story, tasco. But is fiction. The WHOLE thing--amazing how you can be wrong on every single sentence. Let's see:

"The problem with this march is that it is organized by those who boycotted the NO MAS FARC march"

The march is organized by the Movimiento Nacional de Victimas de Crímenes de Estado, headed by Ivan Cepeda. Could you post here anything that suggests that either Mr. Cepeda or the organization he leads called for boycotting the NO MAS FARC march?

"Furthermore they organized it only after they realized the enormous success and the international coverage of the NO MAS FARC march"

Nope. It was organized BEFORE the 4F march. There is at least one letter, dated February 2, in which the 6M march is announced.

http://www.elespectador.com/elespectador/secciones/Detalles.aspx?idNot...

The position of Ivan Cepeda with respect to 4F vs 6M comparisons can be found in his Semana interview:

http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?IdArt=109263

Your last sentence, of course, is a conclusion that follows from false premises.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Alma del Norte says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:17:

I don't care who organises the marchs/vigils/protests. I don't agree with the Colombian government and it's policies, but I was there on the 4th of February, and I'll be there on the 6th March. I don't see it as a "rival", and I don't care how many people turn out. Just as long as the point gets made, it gets some publicity and we are effective in expressing solidarity with those affected.

La vida es una rutina

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 14:21:

You know what I found interesting though?

That the people that called for boycotting the 4F march were the actual victims.

http://www.semana.com/wf_InfoArticulo.aspx?IdArt=109154

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:04:

two questions

1) if this march was in the works before the anti FARC one, why didn't the organizers just join up with that one? Seems silly to have 2 so close together? Both about anti-violence, anti terror, so what was the problem?

2) not sure what the story is that sr t and desi are riled up about, but sounds like someone stole someone else's property?

So are you two suddenly believers in the right to private property? Or did I miss something (quite possible)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:10:

Pod. To answer your questions:

1) The organizers of the 4F march refused to extend their call to other forms of violence. They claimed that they needed to focus on FARC alone.

2) Check "The Carimagua Scandal" thread

3) I've never questioned the right of anyone to own property (and where did you get that I would? nevermind, I forgot about the voices). I got something against other individuals taking my property by force, though.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:26:

but it was a public march, anyone could have marched carrying any sign they wanted I would think? But ok, I'll assume people were told they couldn't protest anything but FARC violence.

as for private property, I just wanted to clarify, no accusations. I think it's he first time I've heard you actually state a belief.

I'm willing to wager that within 1 week you will contradict yourself on that though : )

and just for he record, not that I care, but desi, isn't this comment: "(and where did you get that I would? nevermind, I forgot about the voices"

implying I have a mental illness against the new rules? Or are some people 'more equal' than others?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:41:

"I think it's he first time I've heard you actually state a belief."

Parading one's beliefs seems to me the signature of intolerant fundamentalists that I detest.

"I'm willing to wager that within 1 week you will contradict yourself on that though"

It's possible, but I doubt it'll happen.

And, "just for he record, not that I care," I want to clarify that "the voices" are not meant as a personal insult but just as a reference to your tendency to make up statements and facts, a tendency that I've learned to enjoy.

Best,

T

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:50:

oh that's a relief sr t. It would have been embarrasing to think that a decent, "intellectual" who might even have a job influencing young people would be stooping to juvenile insults on the internet. : )

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:51:

You know what really bothers me ?
That the trash, that´s ANNCOL, is jumping on the 4M bandwagon and saying that the 2 protests are completely antagonists.
And who says I´m not victim? I don´t have family or close friends DIRECTLY victmized by FARC . I can´t travel in own country b/c of fear I´ll get kidnapped.
That´s what´s wrong !

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 15:59:

some pretty scandalous articles have been posted about chomsky on the other thread about the march, any thoughts on those sr t?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 16:10:

nah, I browsed them quickly though, and found them uninteresting. If I wanted to talk about Chomsky, I wouldn't come to a Colombia forum--unless you want to discuss his points on Colombia.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 16:17:

I expected nothing less from you sr t!

personally, I agree, there are not many topics more uninteresting than chomsky, and chomsky on colombia, jesus

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 16:18:

Jorge:

You're right about ANNCOL, but recall that Mancuso and his buddies also jumped into the 4F bandbwagon. The organizers rejected their support, just like the organizers of 6M have rejected FARC's.

Well, yes, all humans are victims...but if you have a relative currently or formerly captive, you can join any of the established organizations and let your voice be heard. My point was simply that it is rather ironic that those most directly affected by the war boycotted the 4F march... nothing wrong with that, but noone can say that the march was in solidarity with THOSE victims. That's a critical difference with the 6M march: It is organized by the victims themselves.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 16:36:

NAH, I don´t buy that (keyword, I).
FARC felt the weight of people´s perception about them and came up with damage control (= 4M march). Paras´victim bought it.
They´re trying to buy some legimaticy by calling to a march against the "other responsables".
FARC are trying to PR on the internet with oversears supporters.

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 16:51:

Well, I've been trying to reasonably show that that's not the case. Would you share with us why you think that FARC is behind 6M, aside from the speculations you just made?

In particular I don't get a couple of points. First, how would this march serve as "damage control" for FARC? If it's because it criticizes the government, does that mean than anyone's peaceful criticism of the government serves as "damage control" to FARC? I think there's a simpler way to minimize those criticisms: address the plight of displaced population.

I'll bet you my left arm that there will not be 10 people supporting FARC in that march. On the other hand, Uribe could appear to apologize--as head of state--for those state crimes that have been demonstrated in the courts of law, and make a commitment to take seriously the demands of displaced population. I actually wouldn't be surprised if he did that, but I doubt that he would follow through with whatever promises he makes.

And second, why would paraco victims "buy" anything if they were the ones who initiated the march?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:25:

Prisioneros = Secuestrados
http://www.anncol.nu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=390&Ite...

They can tell the future! What people are going to say afer 4M
http://www.anncol.nu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=302&Ite...

(I just found an "interesting article" on indymedia.org about how bio disel is evil. That´s credibility dude !

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:27:

I was hoping that you would address my questions. Guess not.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:28:

El que a los 20 años no fue comunista no tuvo corazon.
Pero el que a los 40 años sigue siendo comunista, no tiene razon.
Carlos Lleras

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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webmanco says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:47:

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...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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goin_south says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:50:

where is gringoloid? the conspiracy theorist...
sr t is asking for ya.

por que, por que, por que.....

sr t, your world is so damn complicated with thoughtful disconfiguration...
or, has it ever occurred to you? that some things that happen in the world are not so complicated in thought and plan...

sometimes I do appreciate reading your 'rationalizations'...
but then....

and yes, you can wring my neck if you like ...
........'QUAAAAAACK'!

Where do we go from here?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 17:55:

Complicated? I think this is very simple:

There is a march in solidarity with those who have been victimized by paracos and government. March 6. Those of us who appreciate such solidarity should participate.

Period.

For rationalizations, ask jorge. My questions are just trying to figure him out, but I think he's looking for Communists in facebook.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 18:09:

If you are spreading that gruop Don Ramon, why do you so vehementely support FARC and their tacticts?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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podborski says on Feb 24, 2008, 18:13:

sr t doesn't support FARC jorge! he apparently doesn't support anything, at least not that he wants to admit to.

but he sure is consistent in apologizing for all the Marxist terrorists/dictators in the word, even if not consistent in anything else : )

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 24, 2008, 18:13:

What group?

where do I "vehementely support FARC and their tacticts (sic)"?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 24, 2008, 18:17:

...and he´s master in changing topics too. May be he is a woman.. jajaja

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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goin_south says on Feb 24, 2008, 21:52:

he's been accused before, here on pbh of being a 'pinko-commi-fag';
I don't believe that's ALL true ;-)

Where do we go from here?

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juancegomez says on Feb 25, 2008, 11:36:

As I've mentioned elsewhere, I have a considerable amount of respect for Mr. Cepeda, who is indeed one of the main organizers of this mobilization (march, concentration or vigil).

Mr. Cepeda has even explicitly accused ANNCOL of manipulation, as far as the March 6th event is concerned ("el que no marche es paraco" is one of the ANNCOL headlines about it), and has also rejected a FARC front's misuse of his father's name. See here:

http://www.elespectador.com/elespectador/Secciones/Detalles.aspx?idNot...

Personally, I believe there are plenty of reasons (Rodrigo Umprimny's, Carimagua, etc.), including those mentioned above and elsewhere, to join this protest in whatever ways are possible for each of us.

Sr Tertius:

"You know what I found interesting though? That the people that called for boycotting the 4F march were the actual victims."

Two main points here.

One, there are other individuals, groups, agencies and NGOs that have little to do with FARC victims who did, in fact, explicitly boycott or even insulted the past February 4th mobilization. Doesn't take too much googling to find them.

Two, I believe you're generalizing a bit too much. "The actual (FARC) victims" are, literally, tens of thousands of people, to use a conservative estimate. Even if we were to ignore those unrelated to kidnapping or extortion, as self-defeating as such a restriction would be...so I'm counting all of those as well.

In any case...of these, only a subset of prominent hostage relatives and their organizations criticized the march or, in some cases, called for a boycott.

Others didn't do either, but still showed up at the church in order to express themselves in a different way (or at least do so quietly, even if some may well be against FARC in their own heads and hearts)

And I can also say, without a doubt, that I personally saw at least a handful of people who were in fact FARC victims or their relatives and they did participate in the anti-FARC protest. What's more, I saw one or two banners calling for the liberation of individuals whose names do not show up in the headlines, these days or at all.

Even if teleSUR and, say, many media outlets do not explicitly recognize their existence and pretend that all the "familiares de los secuestrados" are represented by only a small fragment of the total...there is far more variety than that in reality, and all their different opinions should be respected.

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webmanco says on Feb 25, 2008, 12:33:

Por qué marchar el 6 de marzo

Tan sólo en nombre de la llamada "Justicia" se marcho contra una de las ovejas negras de Colombia, por justicia e igualdad hay que darle rejo a las demás ovejas negras. A ver si se les afloja así de facil la lagrima como el 4 de Febrero.

http://eduardoarias.blogspot.com/2008/02/marchar-por-las-otras-vctimas...

A MARCHAR POR LAS OTRAS V�?CTIMAS

Este es el contenido de un comunicado de la Organización Nacional Indígena Colombiana, ONIC.

El Movimiento Nacional de Víctimas deCrímenes de Estado convoca:
6 DE MARZO DE 2008
Homenaje nacional a las víctimas del paramilitarismo , la parapolítica y loscrímenes de Estado.
Usted marchó el 4 defebrero. ¿Acompañará el 6 de marzo a las víctimas de los paramilitares, losparapolíticos y los agentes del Estado?
Nunca más fosas comunes.
Nunca más desplazamientos forzados.
Nunca más paramilitares. Nunca más parapolíticos.
Nunca más crímenes de Estado.
MARZO 6
POR LOS DESAPARECIDOS
POR LOS DESPLAZADOS
POR LOS MASACRADOS
POR LOS EJECUTADOS
En Colombia han sido desplazadas cerca de cuatro millones de personas, en su mayoría por los grupos paramilitares. Estos grupos, solos o en conjunto con miembros de las fuerzas militares, han desaparecido al menos a 15.000 compatriotas y los han enterrado en más de 3.000 fosas comunes o han arrojado sus cadáveres a los ríos; han asesinado a más de 1.700 indígenas, 2.550
sindicalistas y cerca de 5.000 miembros de la Unión Patriótica. Regularmente torturan a
sus víctimas antes de matarlas. Entre 1982 y 2005 los paramilitares perpetraron más de 3.500 masacres, y r obaron más de seis millones de hectáreas de tierra. Desde 2002, después de su "desmovilización", han asesinado 600 personas cada año. Llegaron a controlar el 35 por ciento del Parlamento. Desde 2002 hasta hoy, miembros del Ejército Nacional han cometido más de 950 ejecuciones, la mayoría presentadas como "positivos".
Tan solo en enero de 2008, los paramilitares cometieron dos masacres, nueve desapariciones
forzadas, ocho homicidios, y el Ejército ha cometido 16 ejecuciones extrajudiciales.
En Colombia, agentes del Estado y paramilitares violan los derechos humanos y el derecho humanitario. Muchos grupos paramilitares no se han desmovilizado. Ahora se hacen llamar �?guilas Negras. Muchos parapolíticos están en cargos públicos y diplomáticos.

posted by EDUARDO ARIAS at

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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tasco66 says on Feb 25, 2008, 12:43:

Sr. T you can appear to be quite convincing at times, but scratching the surface a little reveals your real intentions and goals. Unfortunately I do not have the whole day to post here and research the internet like you, as I have a full time job. It took me just two seconds to look at your favourite web site to find who are some of the people calling for the march:

http://www.polodemocratico.net/Noam-Chomsky-llama-a-marchar-el-6

If you had shown the same enthusiasm about the anti-Farc mach as this new march, you would have some credibility left, unfortunately as we know this is not the case.

Nuff said.

Bravo, Presidente Uribe for the perfect operation!

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juancegomez says on Feb 25, 2008, 13:12:

webmanco: Afortunadamente hay personas que la apoyan o convocan sin entrar en esa clase de comparaciones algo absurdas, como si a la gente se le "afloja" así de "fácil" la "lágrima" o no....

En todo caso, yo voy a participar porque comparo el concepto y la intención general de la mobilización, aunque no comparta varias de las opiniones al respecto ni todos los detalles que, por ejemplo, se expresan en ese texto.

Ejemplo: 4 millones de personas desplazadas a lo largo de 20 años, lo que se ha calculado, no es igual a dar la impresión de tener 4 millones de desplazados en el 2008, por razones que hasta un texto de la misma fuente de esa cifra reconoce (el otro día aquí lo puse, igual lo busco si hace falta, no sobra):

En 20 años, es "posible" que mucha gente se muera, salga del país o supere su condición de desplazado (sin que por ello tenga que estar mejor o peor, comparado con su estado original...si ya su vida no es la de un desplazado).

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webmanco says on Feb 25, 2008, 13:36:

Participe el 4, lo haré el 6, con la misma convicción de que en la mira este no solamente uno sino todos los autores del dolor Colombiano, corrupción a la cabeza. Porque la convicción de muchos el 4, sin desmeritar la marcha, fue debido a la publicidad más que a un enfoque claro del origen de los males de la Patría.

Y sí algún día he de portar la Bandera Colombiana será sin usos derogativos a ningún grupo del País, los colores patrios no han de ser usados para inculcar odio, desprecio en contra de ningún otro grupo armado o no armado.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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jorgegdiaz says on Feb 25, 2008, 13:38:

Interesting forum

http://www.polodemocratico.net/spip.php?page=foro&id_article=3756

I still think that the 4M has been apropiated by FARC to do damage control. ANNCOL is already "predicting Paracol" headlines about the it. What kind of seriousness leaves that to one`s mind?

"To err is human - and to blame it on a computer is even more so."Robert Orben

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webmanco says on Feb 25, 2008, 14:09:

4 de Marzo

http://www.eltiempo.com/opinion/columnistas/diegoarias/

Pocos como 'H.H.' para develar el entramado de la incursión paramilitar en el Valle

Para los primeros días de marzo, justo antes de la llamada movilización contra el paramilitarismo, ha sido reconvocada la audiencia que Éver Veloza, 'Hernán Hernández ('H. H.'), deberá dar ante un fiscal de Justicia y Paz y que podrá comenzar a develar el entramado de paramilitarismo, empresarios y narcos que trajo nuevas violencias al Valle del Cauca entre 1999 y 2002.

El paramilitarismo incursionó en el Valle del Cauca en julio de 1999 y, según prometió confirmarlo 'H. H' en su próxima audiencia, llegó por iniciativa de importantes dirigentes de la sociedad y gremios económicos de la región. Sucedió justo después de los secuestros de La María y del kilómetro 18 por el Eln, cuando la indignación caminaba al lado de un temor generalizado; pero a algunos empresarios y notables de la región les pareció mejor fomentar la violencia que reclamar por una acción institucional eficaz frente a los desafueros de la guerrilla.

Desde su captura, en abril del 2007, ha acudido a un par de audiencias, pero la próxima, el 4 de marzo, será decisiva para conocer el tema del paramilitarismo en el Valle -aunque como todas estas declaraciones, habrá que tomar lo que diga con cuidado- y de un periodo de violencia en el país del que debemos sentir todos un enorme dolor y una gran vergüenza; solo superables por la decisión honesta como sociedad de reivindicar a las víctimas y asegurarnos de que no vuelva a ocurrir.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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huskie says on Feb 25, 2008, 14:11:

Rodrigo Uprimny: Old Politics "Charlatan"..

What do you think of displaced people who invade private property and set up house and steal your water, your electricity, kidnap your loved ones, rape women,and kill because they feel is their right? Where are the human rights activists defending those who have owned land for centuries and have forced very highly educated and hard working individuals to leave their own country to seek asylum in places that they feel are not even welcome and are discriminated against because they do not belong in their societies? What has happened to all the brilliant fugitive brains who cannot return to their country because they are afraid? We must erradicate all those who promote communism and drug trade, and those who make a living by writting BS, we need action, not fancy words!!!
and maybe then, all of those expatriados can return home to help fix the country.
Cheers

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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juancegomez says on Feb 25, 2008, 14:24:

webmanco: Uno puede protestar contra muchas cosas que no sean el "orígen de los males de la Patria".

En esta nueva protesta no se está condenando clara y explícitamente a la corrupción, por ejemplo, pero igual vale la pena participar como se considere apropiado hacerlo.

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cali373 says on Mar 4, 2008, 19:58:

huskie, you thru toooooooooo much information grouped together that it just didn´t make much sense and too simplistic. You seem to lose the meaning behind Human rights, it does not have to do with owning property. And if your argument is true then you must be speaking about the indigenous peoples that owned the land FAR LONGER than the people of Spanish Decent that commited geniocide to take over land. You see where I am going. Narrow your arguements You will make better sense.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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cali373 says on Mar 4, 2008, 20:15:

tasco66 , I dont know that the feb 4 March qualifies as a peace march, even though I am sure they is enough ignorance out they that saw it that way. It was clearly organized by Uribe´s Government and party, which is not looking for peace, but war. Could it be the solution, maybe. But it is definitely not looking for a peacefull solution, read up on it and you will see. So with that said the Feb 4 March was NOT a peace march.

By the way I took part in that March in Barranquilla and I would take part on March 6 if I could.

Smile if you are a thinker!

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Mar 5, 2008, 01:01:

I read a poll in Caracol and 44% said they will March 50% said they won't and the rest didn't know :))

sometimes i wonder if this has become a competition

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huskie says on Mar 5, 2008, 03:01:

Here is my response to you Cali373:

Respaldamos a las Fuerzas Militares y a la Policía.

• Confiamos en las instituciones y en el Estado colombiano.

• Rechazamos el “paramilitarismo��? y los crímenes cometidos por estos grupos armados ilegales contra la población civil indefensa.

• Repudiamos los crímenes cometidos contra los colombianos por las guerrillas del ELN y de las FARC, así como por el narcotráfico y por cualquier organización al margen de la Ley.

• Rechazamos a quienes deshonraron las instituciones apoyando a los grupos armados ilegales, incluyendo a las AUC y al narcotráfico. Como funcionarios están más obligados que cualquiera a hacer respetar el Estado de Derecho y a proteger a los ciudadanos.

• Condenamos la vinculación a los grupos de autodefensas y al narcotráfico de cualquier representante de la clase empresarial, de la fuerza pública y en general de cualquier estamento de la sociedad colombiana.

• En Colombia no se han cometido Crímenes de Estado ya que no existe una política tendiente a la violación de los Derechos Humanos.

• Reconocemos que ha habido agentes del Estado que han cometido atropellos, pero son ellos quienes a título personal han infringido las normas y sobre ellos debe caer de manera individual todo el peso de la Ley.

• Nos solidarizamos con todas las víctimas del conflicto; sus victimarios merecen el rechazo contundente de todos los ciudadanos de bien y de la comunidad internacional.

• Exigimos la restitución y reparación integral de los derechos de las víctimas de todas las formas de violencia.

• Los invitamos a la reflexión y a la participación activa, comprometidos con la búsqueda de la convivencia a partir del respeto y el reconocimiento a la dignidad del otro.

Contact Info Email: contacto at martaluciaramirez.com
Website: www.martaluciaramirez.com
Office: Senadora Marta Lucía Ramírez
Street: Cra 7 No 8 - 68
City/Town: Bogotá, Colombia

Cheers

By huskie on 2008-03-03 14:39:21 in Off Topic. Edit

"Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds-"

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webmanco says on Mar 5, 2008, 03:28:

Huskie, sabes del dicho de que se predica pero no se práctica?

There are always rotten apples in the Goverment, it is something that needs to be addressed and not to ignored.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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