Please help

marbelmorales says on Jul 24, 2008, 08:56:

I will wright. It hurts my heart to know this kind of things happen on a daily basis allover the world....

"Be kinder than necessary, for everyone you meet is fighting some kind of battle."

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 24, 2008, 11:28:

Bringing this up to the top.
Where's the outrage from our right-wing friends?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Dolfi says on Jul 28, 2008, 01:20:

That´s what I am asking myself. They never have any problem withe the Paracos.

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pobrecito says on Jul 28, 2008, 01:50:

It is a shame that such things may happen.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 28, 2008, 02:31:

http://www.elpais.com.co/paisonline/notas/Julio282008/paras.html

The chances are that these people are already dead.
Where are Tasco666, huskey, simon, billyB etc people who can't see but one side of the evil and their outrage?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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robi666 says on Jul 28, 2008, 04:17:

What's strange?
Last month, 400 people were displaced by paramilitary just 4 kilometers from a main tourist destination like Parque Tayrona.
And what about the massacres of last week in Cordoba?
Mr. President keeps saying that Paramilitarism does not exist in Colombia.

Truth is, while FARC seem weakened, the narco-paraco-groups are getting absolutely out of control again. The corruption of the legal forces and local administrations is revamping.

That's where the spotlight should be or this country may go down the toilet soon.

But... oh yes... we are Euro lefties.

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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robi666 says on Jul 28, 2008, 04:32:

Interesting... this morning on El Tiempo.

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/2008-07-28/crearan-cinco-gru...

And

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/2008-07-28/acabar-guerra-ent...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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Dolfi says on Jul 29, 2008, 00:40:

And when one considers the close ties between Uribistas in parlament and Paramilitaries it becomes even more frightening.

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robi666 says on Jul 29, 2008, 04:57:

Again... another good morning from El Tiempo...

http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/2008-07-29/alerta-en-las-aut...

"I am a citizen of the most beautiful nation on earth. A nation whose laws are harsh yet simple, a nation that never cheats, which is immense and without borders, where life is lived in the present."

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pobrecito says on Jul 29, 2008, 06:02:

"Where's the outrage from our right-wing friends?"

Yes, where ?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Jul 30, 2008, 23:42:

Yes, where?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Jul 31, 2008, 07:09:

Yes?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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pobrecito says on Jul 31, 2008, 12:25:

bump

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 31, 2008, 23:42:

The silence is deafening.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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gringoloid says on Aug 1, 2008, 00:29:

what is the constitutional legitimacy of the paramilitaries? if there isn't any then they're criminals, plain and simple.

if a burglar comes into my home and removes my valuables i don't really care whether he is a democrat or a republican. he is a burglar, not a republican.

that was easy.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 1, 2008, 01:24:

They're common criminals whose existence was promoted, sustained, encourage by the leading elites of Colombia, There's too much evidence already of their ties with the legitimate military forces of Colombia and even if they're not supposed to exist any longer (Uribe's words) they still continue their cruel and sinister thug activity, with the beneplacence of the Colombian army. (as stated by themselves...)

But, our extremely vocal right-wing supportesr tasco666, billyB, huskie etc. remain silent. It's OK with them, FARC terror is despiccable, but Para terror is OK.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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webmanco says on Aug 1, 2008, 05:31:

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

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tasco66 says on Aug 1, 2008, 05:36:

I see our usual PBH board lefties salivating over how they can exploit this terrible event, and bumping up the original post one after the other, using it to repeat their usual left-wing propaganda. What a sorry sight, and all this with the benediction of a mod.

Please let’s have some decency here.

I have commented many times on the paras on this site, but according to Desi I absolutely have to comment on every single post about the paras, even if I have to repeat myself over and over again. Is your memory that short?

Everyone knows that there is a para problem in Colombia, and nobody has done more to eliminate it than Uribe, and that’s a fact (but our lefties refuse to see that of course).

Let me remind you that the paras were originally set up as protection to the guerrilla kidnappings and killing, due to the lack of government protection. Obviously when you have a group of armed men in a country as large as Colombia and with the drug trade, things quickly got out of hand.

Some justify the paras as a chimo treatment for a cancer patient (the cancer being the guerillas). Personally, I prefer Uribe’s solution of using the military, and the recent results have definitely shown that is the right way to go.

Now Desi, please listen and try to remember:

I condemn any kidnapping, bombing, murder, threats or any other violent action against innocent civilians, this be from the guerrillas, paras or military in Colombia or anywhere in the world, and this of course includes the above event in Nariño, as others similar ones that have taken place over there.

Happy now? Or did I spoil the self gratifying leftie party of this thread?

As for the quote above it reminds me of a bandit that robed a bank and said it was useless to call the police because he had their protection. Yep, very credible….(for our leftie friends maybe, but not for me)…

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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tasco66 says on Aug 1, 2008, 05:46:

“Where's the outrage from our right-wing friends?'

Desi, I never saw any outrage from you on Farc bombings and killings, only on para violence.

That goes for you too Dolfi and pobrecito

Shame on you!

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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pobrecito says on Aug 1, 2008, 09:12:

"I have commented many times on the paras on this site"
I must be blind.

"Everyone knows that there is a para problem in Colombia, and nobody has done more to eliminate it than Uribe, and that’s a fact (but our lefties refuse to see that of course)."
Do you know the "parapolitica" ?

"Let me remind you that the paras were originally set up as protection to the guerrilla kidnappings and killing, due to the lack of government protection. Obviously when you have a group of armed men in a country as large as Colombia and with the drug trade, things quickly got out of hand."
It is not true; they were not set up to protect the colombian people but the big "ganaderos".


"I condemn any kidnapping, bombing, murder, threats or any other violent action against innocent civilians"
Son palabras, blabla, blabla.

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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gringoloid says on Aug 1, 2008, 09:45:

desi, i don't know who this tasco is, but i do know billyb and huskie well enough to say that they do not support violence from anyone in any way, against innocents.

we don't hold you left wingers responsible for promoting farc military activities.

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tasco66 says on Aug 1, 2008, 10:31:

pobrecito what does a newbie like you that has been around for a little more than a month know about me?

Did you post here before under another ID that was deleted by any chance??? Jajajaja

Not being bound to swear to the dogmas of any master

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pobrecito says on Aug 1, 2008, 13:01:

I can read your posts and comments by clicking on your ID or by searching "tasco66", you do not know?

De que vale la vida si cuando la tenemos parece muerta. La vida es para sentirla, para vibrar, para luchar, para combatir. Eso justifica nuestro paso por la tierra........Jaime Pardo Leal

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podborski says on Aug 1, 2008, 13:59:

so looks like the right wingers are quite happy to condemn violence against innocent people desi, guess we'll wait for your apology huh?

I sure condemn it, but i don't think I've ever seen you or dolfi or buggy/cassini condemn FARC?

Further, I have yet to see the paras get public support and funding from international groups, although FARC does, what's up with that?

FARC even gets support from neighbouring dictatorships....

So to say the paras and FARC somehow deserve equal media space falls on deaf ears, sorry.

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gatogris says on Aug 1, 2008, 14:35:

This debate has the hallmarks of a long-running conversation in deep decline. Are the opposing parties truly accusing one another of not having condmned their respective hated groups enough? This is a sad, disgraceful absurdity. Like a sour, embittered, mostly-deaf, wizened old couple barking about whose turn it is to wash the dishes while unable to hear each other, this discussion brings to mind marriages that should have ended in divorce and seperation long, long ago.

If only for the sake of the children, such as myself.

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billyb says on Aug 1, 2008, 17:05:

Gringoloid, thanks for the good words and you are correct, i have been very vocal on my disdain for all illegal actors (as opposed to desi's selective outrage), desi, just go back and read what i say about the paras, then come back and talk, I just didn't feel like playing your game on this thread.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 2, 2008, 02:31:

No, you haven't but I'm glad that you have joined us who have condemned all violence coming from ALL sides from the beginning. There's nothing like a united front against all evil.

Gatogris, sorry to have bored you to death with this bickering. It's the FIRST TIME ever I have adked anybody to take a stand.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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billyb says on Aug 2, 2008, 14:25:

Desi, as usual, you are a penny short and an hour late, LOL. But don't despair, you have buggy/pobrecito back to parrot your views so you shouldn't feel too lonely. And Gato, I'll give her full custody of the "kids" LOL.

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romy says on Aug 2, 2008, 16:15:

"Further, I have yet to see the paras get public support and funding from international groups, although FARC does, what's up with that?

FARC even gets support from neighbouring dictatorships...."
any evidence of this or just words? and magical computers?


I can't stand the executive/legislative government, the FARC, the ELN, the paras, etc... all a bunch of criminals with different names and different levels of so called 'legitimacy'. I particularly take a case against government propaganda because it has brainwashed a so called '90%'. I could remain in the stands, like most Colombians around here do, but I want to go back to my country and I want to see it prosper. I'll keep going back and enjoying myself, but at this point I'd rather go somewhere else if my enjoyment depends on the false imagery that has been generated.
If anyone ever wants to talk ideas of what can be done, I'm all ears, I want to do something, I'm able to do something. but what?
The polarizing on this board is disgusting, I have been classified a 'leftie' because I criticize your 'messiah'. And now these 'lefties' have reciprocated treatment to the 'righties', I don't agree with this either. I think everyone needs to remind themselves that we participate in this forum because we care about this country and that includes all its people. Just because your life is good doesn't mean you can forget about the rest. And if that doesn't concern you then these are your own choices and you are responsible of these to your values, morality and ethics. But it's false to claim a love for Colombia if the well-being of the entire country does not concern you.

anyways, carry on... or....whatever...

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 3, 2008, 04:42:

My apologies for contributing to the polarization of this board. I just get so sick and tired sometimes reading so much self-righteous chest-pounding, raving and ranting.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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gatogris says on Aug 3, 2008, 07:21:

Some need to polarize in order to give legitimacy to their own views. Like radio "shock jocks," they don't really have a point of view with any depth or nuance and would be laughed out of the room by anyone addressing real policy questions, including by those leaders they claim to support. Can you imagine Uribe hiring one of his supporters from this board to give him advice on a complex problem of state? Or Chavez for that matter?

What a pathetic joke.

Don't forget the lessons of recent international events. Forced polarization serves a narrow and immediate political purpose that ultimately leaves everyone feeling nauseated, dumbs down the national conversation, and weakens the strength of the entire body politic.

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billyb says on Aug 4, 2008, 06:53:

Here, i'll give you some more to moan about, so some of you can feel like superior humans.


http://www.eltiempo.com/colombia/justicia/2008-08-04/porque-no-podian-...


Porque no podían caminar, 'Romaña' habría ordenado matar hace 8 años a pareja de ancianos

Foto: Felipe Caicedo / EL TIEMPO

Patricia y Héctor Angulo sostienen la foto de sus padres Gerardo y Carmenza, quienes habrían sido asesinados en cautiverio por las Farc.

La revelación la hizo un guerrillero detenido hace 6 años, dijo Héctor, hijo de Gerardo Angulo y Carmenza Castañeda, secuestrados por las Farc en 2000.


El subversivo dio esa versión ante un fiscal de Justicia y Paz, el pasado mes de febrero. "Usted sabe qué hacer", habría dicho el jefe guerrillero al ser informado de la imposibilidad de los dos ancianos para movilizarse.

"Los asesinó 'Richard' o 'Janil' de la columna Abelardo Romero (...) La orden la dio 'Romaña' porque no llegaron a un sitio de encuentro, pues mi mamá estaba muy mal", le dijo Héctor a este diario.

Según el testimonio del guerrillero, Gerardo y Carmenza fueron asesinados en el cañón del Río Guatiquía, entre Cundinamarca y Meta.

La versión fue confirmada por Guillermo la 'Chiva' Cortés, en el programa Las Voces de Secuestro, en agosto del 2000, poco después de ser liberado.

"La 'Chiva' dijo que vio a Carmenza caminar por la selva, con las venas várices reventadas (...) que le chasqueaban las botas plásticas por la sangre", recuerda el periodista Herbin Hoyos, director del programa radial.

Carmenza y su esposo, Gerardo Angulo, a los 68 años, fueron plagiados el 19 de abril de ese año en La Calera, a las afueras de Bogotá.

No perdieron la esperanza

Sus hijos mantuvieron por 8 años la incertidumbre de no saber si estaban vivos. Pero esa duda empezó a disiparse con fuerza este año, cuando les dijeron que sus padres fueron asesinados luego de tres meses de secuestro, en julio del 2000.

Sus hijos sospecharon durante estos años que estaban muertos, dada la edad y las complicaciones de salud de ellos desde el inicio del secuestro. "Hubo una primera versión, hace 4 años, de una guerrillera, que dijo que los habían asesinado, pero hacia el lado de San Juan de Sumapaz", dijo Héctor.

'Hay que buscar los cuerpos'

Pero el reciente testimonio del guerrillero es hasta ahora la pista más contundente de que sus padres no siguen con vida, pues a los Angulo les parece que tiene más lógica el lugar donde este último dice que fueron asesinados.

No obstante, la zozobra para ellos se mantiene hasta darles sepultura a sus padres: "El drama de nosotros sigue, porque hay que confirmar (las muertes) y buscar los cuerpos, y que la guerrilla nos diga qué pasó", explicó Héctor.

El mismo llamado había hecho ayer el vicepresidente de la República, Francisco Santos, quien en la marcha por la libertad de los secuestrados del 20 de julio exhibió una camisa con la foto de los esposos.

Este domingo, Santos dijo que si Carmenza y Gerardo estaban muertos era imprescindible "descubrir dónde están los cadáveres porque eso es parte del cierre de una situación tan dolorosa".

Héctor le dijo a este diario que su familia ya conocía al guerrillero que dio su versión ante Justicia y Paz, pues hablaron con él cuando fue capturado por las autoridades en el 2002: "Uno vive secuestrado al lado del TV, y cuando lo vimos en las noticias, por la zona donde fue capturado, lo buscamos y hablamos con él. Nos dijo que a mis padres los tenía 'Nelson Robles' (jefe del frente 55 de las Farc)".

Agregó que el subversivo decidió este año confesar el asesinato de la pareja "porque su abogada le recomendó acogerse a los beneficios de Justicia y Paz".

Cuando fueron secuestrados, la guerrilla pidió en principio 800 millones de pesos. Según Héctor, tras entregarles certificados bancarios para comprobar que no podían pagar ese dinero, ajustaron el cobro extorsivo a 250 millones de pesos.

Después hubo un largo silencio en la comunicación. Al cabo de varios meses, enviaron 60 millones de pesos a cambio de pruebas de supervivencia que nunca llegaron.

Falta de atención

Para Hoyos, la guerrilla debe confirmar la muerte de los esposos: "¿Cómo es que la guerrilla no se pronuncia? Es necesario para que las familias dejen de enviarles mensajes con una falsa ilusión".

De hecho, durante estos 8 años de incertidumbre, los hermanos Angulo Castañeda siempre pidieron que personas como sus padres, sin influencia política, fueran visibilizados en el país, como lo expresaron en una carta enviada a este diario en octubre del 2003, publicada en el Foro del Lector: "¿Tendrán que pedir la nacionalidad inglesa, francesa, alemana, española, noruega, italiana, para que nuestro Estado piense en el centenar de compatriotas del común para buscar su libertad?".

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Aug 4, 2008, 08:09:

Yes, I just read that too. I'm sure there are lots of individual stories of great cruelty from both para and farc camps. For every FARC heinous crime there are two crimes of similar nature or worse committed by the paras. But that is not really the issue, which outlaw group is worse; it's the beneplacito of the legitimate military forces and government that one side has enjoyed, too long, too closely.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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