Plan Colombia

greg says on Jul 1, 2004, 13:53:

Plan Colombia Its all about oil.The U.S. wants to control the oil in Colombia just as it does everywhere else. There has been severe environmental damage and many health problems to the people in the areas where aerial spraying has taken place.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Jul 27, 2004, 02:31:

Plan Colombia - reply to Greg To Greg - You're kidding right? "Plan Colombia...all about the [Colombian] oil." This is the biggest joke I've read lately. Before you put something in black and white and sign your name to it, do a little investigation. Plan Colombia is not about control, oil control, or "getting into someone else's business." The Colombian government asked the USA for help (read some articles written about Sen. Pablo Victoria - do you even know who he is?). Spending billions of tax dollars was not something the US just decided to do, we were asked for help. Several plans were considered by both governments before the burning and spraying of coca fields. Before you blindly give you "opinion", you might try reading a little history on the Plan. In fact, it wouldn't hurt you to read a little about what is happening in Venezuela right now, which is where the US actually gets a lot of its oil.
It is easy to voice an opinion based on one or two biased media reports, but try backing it up with a little hard reading on the subject next time. Based on your opinion, I'd be surprised if you were more than 20 years old. Grow up! The USA isn't the big, bad boogy-man out to greedly take from everyone.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Hunter says on Jul 27, 2004, 07:49:

Oil reserves Although I disagree with Greg about plan Colombia being ALL ABOUT OIL.

There is probably plenty of oil and gas reserves in Colombia. The problem has been the terrorist problem stopping the exploration for it.

With the drop in attacks on the pipelines etc., the $40 a barrel oil price, also one of the best regularity tax rules in South America regarding possible oil finds, there has been a marked increase in exploration licenes's issued this year.

Hopefully even more exploration licenes's will be issued and they will find more reserves, the geography is similiar to Venezula and Bolivia, which have large gas and oil reserves, so I feel that there is a strong possibility that the oil is there, they just have to look for it.

Hunter

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Jul 27, 2004, 15:19:

Plan Colombia Penelope

I would say you need to grow up calling me an ignorant 20 year old just because you don`t agree with me.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Jul 27, 2004, 16:41:

Plan Colombia - Reply to Greg, again OUCH! You're rapier wit has definitely put me in my place!
It isn't that I do or don't agree with you, you obviously can't read either. I didn't say you were ignorant, although that is obvious, I SAID you don't have any facts to back up your opinion regarding the USA trying to "control someone else's oil" or "get in their business." Plan Colombia is a joint effort - a plan of action agreed upon between the USA and the Colombian government. Although I commented on your age actually saying you are very immature would be overstating the obvious. Before you voice your opinion you should try learning a little about Colombia's government. IF you decide to back your opinions up with a little fact, I'll be glad to discuss it with you - otherwise I have no time for you and your uneducated accusations.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

farmerdan says on Jul 27, 2004, 18:54:

i guess pene hasn't seen the ^F 9/11 movie yet

0 funny, 0 helpful.

anonimo says on Jul 27, 2004, 19:14:

just remember... Canada is undefeated in 2 wars with the USA!!!

I think if the USA invades Canada, it would not be for oil.. but for water

I thought that Tim Horton's was opening many locations in the USA.. maybe you will have one near you soon

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Jul 27, 2004, 19:41:

Plan colombia Penelope

Are you related to Anne Coulter? My opinion is an educated opinion as i have read a lot about Plan Colombia. I am also well aware of what is going on in Venezuela. IT is all a matter of whom you choose to believe. I find indepedent media much more believable than the state dept. or corporate media

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Jul 27, 2004, 20:33:

Plan Colombia - Reply to Greg, one last time I am absolutely sure your opinion is uneducated. You have stated NO facts whatsoever to support your opinion. Your first statement was "Its all about oil. The U.S. wants to control the oil in Colombia just as it does everywhere else..." Why would I think you know anything about your accusations? I, at least, have directed to you read Colombian Sen. Pablo Victor's articles. Give me some "independent media" sources to investigate and maybe I will believe you. However I am sure you cannot direct me to any indpendent media sources to support your opinion because you do not no any.
HA HA - very funny, while I am not related to Ann Coulter, and I am a bit more in the middle than she is, I do look a lot like her.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Jul 27, 2004, 20:35:

Plan Colombia - Reply to Greg, one very last time... Don't assume all my information about Plan Colombia comes from the media. I'm not that limited.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Hunter says on Jul 28, 2004, 06:04:

Canada is undefeated in 2 wars with the USA!!! Which two wars are these anonimo.

The only two wars that I can think of that the US has had with Canada, is the 7 years war in 1756, where the British with the American Colonials help kicked the French out of Canada, North America and many other places.

The second being in 1812, when the Americans invaded Canada and the British with the help of local Canadian militas kicked the Americans back over the border.

Hunter

0 funny, 0 helpful.

beto el feo says on Jul 28, 2004, 16:00:

Dear Pene "The Colombian government asked the USA for help. Spending billions of tax dollars was not something the US just decided to do, we were asked for help"

Much of these billions of dollars in so called "help" are spent on contracts with US companies.

As for the spraying of crops I bet the poor people living in these areas are really thankful for the "help" and the damage to their land and health. But I'm glad the US and Colombian Goverments considered several plans before spreading their poisons. Maybe educating their own citizens about not shoving crap into their bodies was too hard.

I remember when Pres Clinton was asked for "help" when the genocide was occuring in Rwanda and he said the US will only intervene when it's in US's interest. I guess saving Thousands of lives wasn't in the interest of the US. Since you have so read so much about Plan Colombia tell us why "helping" Colombia is in the US's interest.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Jul 29, 2004, 01:44:

To Chibchawannabe As with all liberals, you take excerpts from what you want and excuse the rest. You must read the statements as a whole. As far as I'm concerned, helping anyone poorer than the USA AND who asks for help is in the USA’s best interest. I can vote on this issue – my vote can change things. Colombia being a 3rd world country does not have the way or means to pull itself out of the trouble it is in, however if its government was stronger and refused what help the USA offered - of course the USA would not cross your boundaries. That is not the case, the Colombian government has asked for help. The USA is not here to fix all the ills of the world. Countries stand with their hands out, wanting anything free - particularly money - the USA offers unconditionally. But let the USA set any boundaries on our help, and you think "WE'RE" wrong? So be it if FARC as do other guerrillas choose to live in the jungles where the spraying takes place. Terrorist play a dangerous game (I know, I have a very close Colombian friend whose father was kidnapped for 15 days). Maybe the Colombian government, who ordered the spraying in the first place, should be responsible for getting the innocent people out of harms way. Why is that something the USA has to do too? It really doesn't matter because whatever explanations I offer you, I feel sure you will always have another side, another view to shove down my throat. I believe you are wrong and nothing you tell me will change the way I think - as I'm sure you do the same. If you think the USA is so wrong, and you don't want to be involved with the USA, then don't. Don't use our products, don't use our advantages, don't use our technologies. Live in your jungles and put up with the spraying that your own government ordered. The USA is not Santa Claus, you can't take what we offer and then spit on us when you don't like something else we do. And, yes, I do believe a federally-funded drug treatment program would be in the USA’s best interest. A nation-wide campaign explaining that addiction is a disease and should be treated as such is something the USA needs - desperately. I know such a program would be utilitized by Americans as well as many, many people from other countries. Don't think just because Colombia produces and sells drugs to the USA that Colombians are not also using drugs. Addiction is not a disease limited to the USA.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

perdita says on Jul 29, 2004, 10:25:

Aerial spraying: the truth Greg wrote, "There has been severe environmental damage and many health problems to the people in the areas where aerial spraying has taken place."

Yes, there is severe environmental damage in some areas where aerial spraying has taken place. That doesn't mean it was the spraying that caused the damage. The processing of coca causes damage; so do some farming practices.

The chemical used in the aerial spraying program is glyphosate--the same chemical approved by the EPA for use in home gardens in the United States in the weed-killer Roundup. It causes irritation if it is splashed directly into the eyes, but it is relatively safe. Check out what the US Embassy in Colombia has up on its Website:

http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/rpt/aeicc/c10854.htm

http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/rpt/aeicc/26582.htm

Just because information comes from the US government, that doesn't mean it's not true.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Jul 29, 2004, 15:34:

Glysophate The glysophate used in the aerial spraying is not the same chemical used in the U.S. It is more potent and has additives of which the health effects are not yet known. The natives of Ecuador filed a lawsuit against The U.S. because of the damage that has been caused.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

perdita says on Jul 29, 2004, 16:08:

Glysophate Anyone can file a lawsuit; that doesn't mean it has merit. Colombian doctors have found that illnesses attributed by family members to aerial spraying were in fact caused by other factors (see http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/rpt/aeicc/26582.htm).

Re the formulation of glysophate used:
In 2002, "The EPA made one direct recommendation to the Department of State related to spray program controls. . . . EPA recommended that “…due to the acute eye irritation caused by the concentrated glyphosate formulated product and the lack of acute toxicity data on the tank mixture, the Agency recommends that DoS consider using an alternative glyphosate product (with lower potential for acute toxicity) in future coca and/or poppy aerial eradication programs.” This was addressed to the possible risk of splashing the full-strength glyphosate into the eyes or onto the skin of persons filling the spray tanks on the airplane. It was not directed at potential risk to persons exposed to the spray mixture as actually applied by the planes.

At the time that EPA made this recommendation, there were no suitable replacement glyphosate formulations registered for sale and use in Colombia that offered lower potential for acute eye irritation. The Department of State worked with the program’s glyphosate supplier to identify and to register for sale and use in Colombia a formulation of glyphosate with reduced potential for eye irritation. As soon as that product could be registered for sale and use in Colombia, the Department of State began to purchase it for use in the spray program and it remains the formulation used today. Like the previous formulation, the new formulation is also registered with the EPA for sale in the United States for non-agricultural use. . . ." (see http://www.state.gov/g/inl/rls/rpt/aeicc/26581.htm).

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Jul 29, 2004, 18:50:

Glysophate Of course thats what your going to get from the State Dept.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

vicshere says on Jul 29, 2004, 19:02:

try useing sweets I think Colombia and the US are going about it all wrong.... I have a much better and way cheaper way to get the people form working,growing and involved in the drug trade and much better for the environment here in Colombia.....the US should send boat loads of those great Heresy (spelling)chocolate bars down here and give them out to all the trafficants and hell guerrillas to..... let them eat till they are like 400 lbs each and they can't even walk...... now you have em under control...they cant walk work get in a truck go to the bank to laundry their money......I just haven't figured out what to do with all the candy bar wrappers.....dam guess this idea ant going to work either


listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 29, 2004, 19:24:

Kisses? Yes, I can see that'd work. Another option would be opening a MacDonalds in every little village in the jungle. Or maybe a Taco Bell. Either that Or we could start a business called something like "Farc Weight Control Clinic" walk 20 miles a day with a rucksac, eat only platanos and yuca bread, sleep with scorpions and tarantulas, drink only water and you are guaranteed to lose minimum of 20 pounds in two weeks!

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Dan says on Jul 29, 2004, 19:31:

20 miles a day with a rucksac is no joke... you would really shead some pounds... if the distance alone doesn't kill you first.

God Bless America!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

vicshere says on Jul 29, 2004, 19:39:

yes i like the FWCC idea desideria I think your onto a great new idea...we can sell that to those crazy gringos whole fall for stuff like that to tell them its a new style fat farm in the middle of paradise....and so we don't have to pay back the money to the client who isn't loosing the lbs we can always get a FRAC guy chasing the client through the jungle with an AK 47....then they will lose those unwanted fat cells.....man I am FOTFLMAO


listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jul 29, 2004, 19:55:

and one more thing they have some really great looking chicks enlisted in the guerrilla too as an added incentive...tinto even if my own babies were raised up on chocolatines jet, chitos and bonbon bum, I really think Marabou of Sweden and Fazer of Finland rule. Gee...it's 4:30 a.m maybe I ought to get some sleep before I get any more great ideas......cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

perdita says on Jul 30, 2004, 00:07:

Glysophate "Of course thats what your going to get from the State Dept."


And you get your "information" from . . . where, exactly?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

beto el feo says on Jul 30, 2004, 10:54:

ROUNDUP I have a nieghbour who's a real fan of roundup. I was working in my garden one day when I see him pouring some roundup on a tree on just the other side of the fence. He tells me he poured a whole bottle on it last year as well and it didn't seem to work??? at this point I suggest I cut the tree down with my chainsaw, which he agreed to. The moral is - use the right tool for the job. The supply will always be there only the demand has a hope of changing.

I've read that after the spraying occurs the Campesino heads off further into the jungle and clears another couple of hectares to plant another crop.....sounds like a vicious cycle to me. Maybe we could continue with this approach in Peru and Bolivia as well. sounds very sustainable.

Perdita, You've been elected the resident chemist. I'm curious, how long does it take before revegetation can occur after the spraying? I find it ironic that they changed the formula after the guy loading the tanks got some in his eye (probably an American contractor making big bucks). To hell with the Campesinos we're spraying this shit on.

Penelope, I'm sorry to say I'm not Colombian, but I do consider it a compliment. "So be it if FARC as do other guerrillas choose to live in the jungles where the spraying takes place". Do you think FARC are the only people in these areas?

Let them eat Chocolatina Jet!!!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Jul 30, 2004, 12:15:

Glysophate Doesn`t seem that they learned much from the agent orange disaster. Look at what is going on with depleted uranium. Even after all the health problems it has caused, especially on Iraqi children in Basra, even more was used this time around in Iraq. Many U.S. soldiers are getting sick and nothing has been done so why would they care about poor Colombian farmers.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

penelope1013 says on Aug 3, 2004, 03:13:

Chibchawannabe, No, I know first-hand that FARC, and the other groups like them, are not the only people living in the jungles of Colombia. But, as with any liberal, you didn't listen to what else I said/wrote - "...why is it the American government's place to get people out of the Colombian jungle?" Shouldn't this be the responsibility of the Colombian government? I, too, am really sorry to hear you are not Colombian. That means you are just some liberal American who thinks your ideas are right just because you grew up with freedom of speech and because liberal ideas happen to fall out of your head and onto your tongue. Do you have any real connection with Colombia at all? Where are you getting your so-called information - National Geographic? I, at least, live in a Colombian community - have a Colombian spouse and family. I, at least, seek and find information regarding what is going on between the US and Colombia OUTSIDE the media. I stay informed about policy between Colombia and American using sources other than the media, and I look openly at all the information without passing my personal opinion on it. I may not like everything I see or read, but if I look at what choices are left to us - to both the Colombians and the Americans - then I can see that sometimes the only possible way was chosen. I respect that there is no easy answer for problems of these magnitude. I'd be surprised if you - on the other hand - have ever done more than read some liberal article here and there...maybe caught a CNN 35-second-spot about Colombia, or worse, signed onto one of those "The USA is bad" web sites for liberals...and voila, "You're an expert on any subject American is involved in!" If you really think you know what is better than the American and Colombian governments combined - then maybe you should run for office. I know you'd get the "I'm a bleeding heart liberal vote", but lately a lot of those people have decide to join the real world, so be aware that vote gets smaller every day. Life is hard and the choices we make as responsible adults are even harder. You'd do better to bring your ideas to the "arena" and act like a person willing to make matters better rather than stand around whining because things aren't going your way. You'll find more gets done when you become a part of the team than when you stand on the side-lines whining about how you want things done. And, as for Roundup, where do you live that people can’t even read? I know everyone makes mistakes, but simply reading the Roundup bottle will tell you that application will not work. In fact, I can't imagine knowing anyone who would think that would work. I think this is just another example of how liberals tend to do things. It doesn’t matter what is obvious or what the instructions are, a liberal is going to do it their own way and blame someone else when it doesn’t work. And, Chibchawannabe, don't address anything to me anymore. Don't call me by name in any of your responses. I don't want to have anything to do with you. I don't believe you have any real proof to back up anything you say – you waste my time. I want NO association with you at all.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

vicshere says on Aug 3, 2004, 07:05:

Penelope talk about a woman scorned......other than attacking people on this board your point is????????


listo
"con mucho gusto"
Vic

listo

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ShazCas says on Aug 3, 2004, 11:21:

I was just... I was just going to say the same thing! Talk about getting out of the wrong side of the bed! It's all enough to make me thank God I'm not from the US! I didn't know "liberal" was a swear-word over there!

0 funny, 0 helpful.

greg says on Aug 3, 2004, 12:31:

Plan Colombia Penelope sounds a lot like Sean Hannity, a lot of hot air and no substance

0 funny, 0 helpful.

beto el feo says on Aug 3, 2004, 14:19:

OH Penelope Don't worry, you don't have to respond anymore. Honestly, you shouldn't get so heated....it's just a discussion. I saw f 9/11 on the weekend want to discuss it?

Now come on tell us who you really are....You have sources other than the media, you make statements like "You'll find more gets done when you become a part of the team".....You're George W's speach writer aren't you....they must have cut that part out of the you're either with us or against us speach.

Wrong again I'm not American, although I take that as a compliment too.

In my wife's family in Colombia there are lefties and righties. What I find interesting is that they have discussions about these types of things and never belittle one another and then they usually give each other big hugs. I'm waiting Penelope.

0 funny, 0 helpful.