Ordenan al club Los Lagartos permitir acceso de hijo extramatrimonial

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 02:00:

I was thinking about this kind of clubs yesterday, why on earth do you want to join a place that only narrow minded people join.... to me this kind of club breed the most narrow, materialistic people in the world... i would hate to be part of that environment... no wonder is call Los Lagartos that name suit them perfectly.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mononoke28 says on Jun 5, 2008, 08:26:

I always knew these people were scum. But people want to be part of them just because they want to be "in'. Same goes for schools, it's not about the level of education but mainly about the name of the school. Ridiculous.

Diana

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 5, 2008, 09:57:

Hmm I do not agree with not allowing this kid in because he was born out of wedlock, that is simply ridiculous not to mention backward and completely out of touch with modernity. That said, I do not underestimate the power that comes with being a member of a private club or having graduated from a renowned institution. I do not think its purely snobbish and superficial. As a matter of fact these kinds of institutions are the ones which maintain the status quo (for better or worse). Kids who attend these schools and families who play polo together on sundays are not just doing it because it is 'in'. In all actuality the exclusivity that comes with this is what separates the elites with the rest. Regardless of how much income a person generates there will always be a bit of an abyss between those who can get in the country club and those who are not poor by any means but cannot. Just look at high government officials in Colombia, all of a sudden a disproportionate percentage are former San Carlos pupils...what do we make of it? is San Carlos school just a really good high school? or are the connections one makes at San Carlos what makes it so popular? What about universities? Despite of UNAL being considered the best university of Colombia, why is it that uniandinos are taking up all the top jobs? Same thing happens in England...70% of MPs attended Eton or Westminster College and even the house of Lord is a little private club with hereditary peerages and it works marverlously...

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

romy says on Jun 5, 2008, 10:27:

exactly what you expect from a Los Andes grad...
I think it's so funny how Los Andes students say that they go to (or went to) los andes. Their chest comes out and a glitter comes about their eyes. I guess whatever makes you happy, good on you.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

aztec says on Jun 5, 2008, 10:35:

"why on earth do you want to join a place that only narrow minded people join"

The statement itself is narrow minded! So all people who belong to country clubs are insipid and mindless? How absurd a belief!

I have been in Los Lagartos many times and have friends there. Don't you realize you sound just like what you are criticizing?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 11:07:

aztec, to me people that, how can i put , decided who is good enough to join them and who is not is narrow minded, i am not belong to any club nor i want to.. but to decided your kid is not good enough to join them base on that is pretty narrow minded, if i were the mother of that kid i will certainly prohibit him to join that people who are they to implant morals eh?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 11:09:

CK SAID " I do not underestimate the power that comes with being a member of a private club or having graduated from a renowned institution" Me neither hell you will have a good job for life.. plenty of palancas

that's why the call the Universidad Javeriana " La Casamentera" dizque porque alla van los que quieren conseguir buen partido

0 funny, 0 helpful.

romy says on Jun 5, 2008, 11:13:

kat- the sad part is that it's probably the mother that is pushing the kid to join the club... it'll help him be 'succesful' in life

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 11:18:

yeah "successful" ;)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 5, 2008, 12:52:

Romy I do not know if your comment was directed at me (I am assuming it was even though I am not a Los Andes alumnus) but my point is dismissing social clubs and highly regarded educational institutions just because they're 'snobbish' is a rather narrow minded approach. I have never really cared much for that sort of stuff but I can appreciate why some people try hard to get in, denying that it improves a person's chances to get ahead is pointless and assuming that achievements are a result of hard work and pure meritocracy is not only naive but unrealistic. In including the example of Eton, Westminster and the House of Lords I was not intending to defend exclusive institutions but actually offering an alternative point of view. Not all these places are for snobbish, brainless people who just want to marry rich, but can act as extremely competitive playing fields for people who enjoy similar backgrounds. It is not perfect, it should be more inclusive...but my comment was not focused on the way things ought to function, on the contrary, my comment just intended to show the picture is not as black and white as some of the previous posters put it.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 14:09:

ck wrote:
"but my point is dismissing social clubs and highly regarded educational institutions just because they're 'snobbish' is a rather narrow minded approach."

i would say they are not all snobbish but yes being snobbish to my opinion is narrow minded, to believe that you are better than any other person just because you got better education and money.



My problem with those clubs is not about rich people, i have rich friends and thanks god they are not snobbish nor they belong to any club actually they are the most down earth people you have ever met.
but if to join those club they only requirement will be, if you got the money to pay the fees, and if you are a "good citizen" and educated, I wouldn't mind but to judge people because of their background, because in some of them that is what they do, if you don't come from family with "alcurnia" or so and so,no even if you got the money you can't join, or as the article above if you are a "bastard" because that is what they were trying to say, you are not welcome, that is what p** me off of those places, what make that people think they are better than the rest.



"but I can appreciate why some people try hard to get in, denying that it improves a person's chances to get ahead is pointless and assuming that achievements are a result of hard work and pure meritocracy is not only naive but unrealistic"

again i think different, i don't need to join those places to get ahead nor will my kids. what i gather for what are you saying, correct me if i am wrong is that if my kids will join a club like that they will go ahead because they will meet the "right" people .. again the right Palanca.. ay pobre los pobres con talento y trabajando duro that can't never have that chance...
in some way thanks God to the UK, where part of that mentality is gone. here you can get ahead with your own merits..

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoGringo says on Jun 5, 2008, 14:15:

This guy may have won the legal battle and his son can now be a full member, but it will likely do him little good. While his son will be able to use the club whenever he wants, the kid, his father and the rest of the family can pretty much count on being ostracized by anyone that matters in the club. Now he will be viewed as an interloper and an enemy and can forget about getting any serious "palanca" out of the his membership there.

They would have been better served to simply accept the two day a week restriction. That still gave the kid access to the club and the ability to get to know its members. He could have used that limited access to form at least some good connections. It may be morally and legally correct, but on a personal level, it was an immensely stupid move.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 14:40:

And that is why I don't like those clubs, i don't want that kind of mentality to be inflicted on my kids.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoGringo says on Jun 5, 2008, 14:46:

I don't blame this father for wanting his kid in the club, but he shot himself in the foot by approaching it in this manner. It isn't easy to get ahead in Colombia without connections. Some of my cousins in Colombia grew up in these types of clubs and it has benefited them greatly. If I had lived there longer, I would have been in them as well. Unfortunately, being capable and talented are often not enough to "make it" there. Palanca makes life a lot easier. One thing to note is that social standing and connections are not entirely dependent on how much money you have.

Luckily, that kind of stuff is not AS important in the US. Still, I am immensely different for growing up in an affluent environment in the US than I would have been growing up in some typical US Latin barrio neighborhood. I don't regret it for a minute. It doesn't mean I am elitist, but I recognize that it gave me immeasurable advantages over other Latin youths in this country that didn't have those benefits. It affected everything from the way I think and speak to the way I relate to the world and the expectations I set for myself.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 5, 2008, 15:01:

CG luckily in the UK that kind of stuff is not important either . i know what you mean and unfortunately in Colombia to get the ahead you need to know the right people and be in the "right" place.. no wonder many people emigrated because they know they will have better chances abroad.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

romy says on Jun 5, 2008, 16:53:

You are kidding me this doesn't exist in the UK... how come people in London know exactly where you come from and make so many assumptions of who you are as soon as they hear your accent. I recommend you watch the 'seven' series and then you'll figure out the importance of social class in the UK. yeesh, there's something called the social determinants of health and social status is a major determinant.

As far as exclusive clubs, I don't like them, though I've been in them and have many friends in them. But I do recognize the advantages of being in one of these, and this applies to anywhere in the world. The eltism that spews from these is disgusting... however you have to recognize a difference between new rich and old rich, anyways...

CK- I guess I infered you were an Andes alumnus, sorry for the misconception. dId you not say something about most of your friends being involved with los andes?

CG- I often wonder if my parents had established me in a latino community here in Calgary if I had been a different individual... I feel like we have a lot in common.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 01:18:

romy says on Jun 5, 2008, 16:53: flag

You are kidding me this doesn't exist in the UK... how come people in London know exactly where you come from and make so many assumptions of who you are as soon as they hear your accent.

does anybody in London speak English? jeje

romy i know that exist in the UK, exist all over the world, but not as strong as some countries.

There are snobbish people in the UK, with money or no money, but here if you want to get to the top, you don't need "THE PALANCA" OR BE THE SON OF FULANO DE TAL" Here as long as you got a good education no matter which university you went , you can do where ever you want with your ow merits.

here the social class is not as latinoamerican countries. here is not much about the money but the education.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 01:50:

-I think the father did what he had to do and even if it might cause social ostracizing at the beginning things may become smoother in the long run. I think it's worth the trouble to establish a precedent that will eventually (hopefully) lead to a change in the praxis. The kind of elitism that CK defends in her comment is a major detriment for the social evolution of the Colombian society, it's medieval and in Europe only exists in some countries with glorious pasts like the UK which has still to let go of its basking in the bygone superpower shine.

I don't like that elitist mentality either and am glad having raised up my kids here where people don't believe in that backwards stuff. As a foreigner in Colombia I'm an excempt to the strict codes of social interaction (as my mother in-law.put it, quite delicately; "vos sos gringa y al fin todo el mundo sabe que las gringas tienen mal gusto"...by the way, a linguistic note: she never addressed her social equal as "vos". gods bless her soul :)

My in-laws (q.e.p.d.) were a typical product of their times and societies; from humble origins they climbed from estrato 3 to 5 by hard work, thriftiness and solid investing. They didn't have quite enough money or prestige to belong to the exclusive clubs in Cali, but gods forbid that they would mingle with the chusma at Pance River...so they stayed at home on Sundays watching the Travel Channel.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

romy says on Jun 6, 2008, 06:51:

desideria- To CK's defense, I believe she's not defending elitism but providing a more comprehensive perspective... I believe the most prominent EU nations have made greater advancements in this respect than the UK. Scandinavian nations are a case of their own.

kat- things like kings, queens, princes, dukes, royal blood, etc. is just the beginning of an elitist society. Seriously look up the 'up' series (sorry i said seven previously) if you believe people from any social class can 'succeed' in the UK (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_Up!). I can't verify it right now nor do I have the time to do so but CK said "Same thing happens in England...70% of MPs attended Eton or Westminster College and even the house of Lord is a little private club with hereditary peerages and it works marverlously"

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Tinto (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 06:53:

Is the word chusma similar to the word riff-raff?

An example sentence used by people from North Dakota: Forty below (zero) keeps the riff-raff out.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

webmanco says on Jun 6, 2008, 06:56:

"i would hate to be part of that environment..."

Well Kat1 you are an active member of one of those environments, and it is not PBH. Ever heard the word "Established Members" :-) those two words about said it all.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:21:

romy not all MP's went to Eton and not all are for privilige backgrounds, and although there is social class here in the UK is not as how shall said uhm as mark as in Latinoamerican countries.

here people from any social class can succeed they don't need the palanca or to be part of the royal family if you have a good education in any university and do well you can go up with your own merits

and not you wrong in the house of Lord are not all privileged people. educated yes.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:35:

And example this UK youth parliament :

UKYP is a clear example that young people from all walks of society are interested in politics, and given the opportunity to engage, will do so. In 2006, 53% of UKYP’s MYPs were female and 47% were male, 2% had disabilities and 21% were from black and ethnic minority groups (compared to 8% of the total population, using 2001 census statistics). These figures are in contrast to the widely held belief that politics is dominated by white, middle class males.

The future is bright for UKYP, as more young people hear about us, more decision makers meet and are inspired by our MYPs, and more challenging projects exhibit the real value of involving young people in decision making.




Now a friend of my daughter is one of them, she comes from a not privileged background, she would like to go into politics and that is what she wants to study, this a big step toward her future goals, and opportunity, she don't have to join the ROSCA or an exclusive club to become an MP you don't need this here.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

webmanco says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:36:

Kat1
she don't have to join the ROSCA or an exclusive club to become an MP you don't need this here.

But you and many others do need to be in a ROSCA in order to remain on a "Club"

Kat1
"i would hate to be part of that environment..."

Well Kat1 you are an active member of one of those environments, and it is not PBH. Ever heard the word "Established Members" :-) those two words about said it all.

And it is not true that "Lo malo de la Rosca es no estar en ella" especially when "La Rosca" is wrong.

...A yo, déjenme queto y no me jodan má! ...

0 funny, 0 helpful.

ColombianoGringo says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:38:

Tinto,

Chusma can be used to mean something like that, but with an even more negative conotation than riff-raff. It was also used a lot to mean bandits or rural outlaw gangs. I hear it used a lot when older people talk about La Violencia.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:39:

this is a different environment webmaco, this is not a club where you can join according to how much you earn or who your family are.


i don't have any roscas at the moment. :))) i should be looking for a Latino Roscas

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 07:39:

Are ther any roscas in PBH?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 6, 2008, 11:22:

Desi I was not defending elitism. As I said before my point was not to describe the way things should work in an ideal world, but rather show a more realistic picture of how things work. Of course societies should be more meritocratic, but I do not believe they should be purely meritocratic.
In regards to social mobility in Britain, it has been scientifically proven that social mobility in Britain has been decreasing steadily since the 1950's. A study by the LSE revealed that rich kids born in the 50's earned only 17% more than their less moneyed peers, the figure rose to 25% for those who were born in the 70's...people who are in their 30s today.
Here are some notes on the study: http://cep.lse.ac.uk/about/news/IntergenerationalMobility.pdf

In regards to MPs education, just look at the numbers for Tory MPs last year:
Number of Tory MPs: 198
·Number who attended private school (independent or public): 112
·Number who attended a grammar: 46
·Number who attended a comprehensive: 27
·Number who attended a secondary modern: 2
·Number who attended an undefined state school: 11
·Number whose school's status is unknown: 1
·Number who refused to disclose: 1
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2007/jun/01/conservatives politics

My figure of 70% was grossly inflated and I apologize for that. It has been the second time this week but the fact that figures are lower does not mean the argument is any less valid:

"In the aftermath of the last general election, the Sutton Trust did a survey of MPs' educational backgrounds, and came to the conclusion that their depressingly narrow range was symptomatic of "the educational apartheid that blights our system and offers the best life chances to those who can afford to pay for their schooling". More than one in four MPs had been to Oxford or Cambridge: 59% of Tories went to fee-paying schools; the Lib Dem figure was 39%, while for Labour the figure had risen from 14% in 2001 to 18%. Not entirely surprisingly, a private education appeared to significantly enhance an MP's chances of promotion: across all three parties, 42% of frontbenchers had been to fee-paying schools, as against 29% of backbenchers. In total, only 41% of MPs went to comprehensive schools; in the population at large, the figure is more than double that (86%). Just 7% of all British children go to a private school."
http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2005/jul/31/schools.grammarschools

Elitism in Britain is pretty obvious, at least in London...Try sending decent looking (but modestly dressed) kids to Mahiki or Boujis (cocktail bar and nightclub) and see what happens, try dating a guy on the oxbridge rowing teams if you're state school girl, or socializing at the Dorchester bar if you don't have the right credentials.
That said, I suppose it is easier for any person from a working class background to become a millionaire in Britain than most places in the world. But one thing is making money and another one is being considered high class...

I do not know where Kat1 gets her arguments from, but elitism in Britain is alive and kicking. She says not all MPs came from priviledged backgrounds, and that is true, but an overwhelming majority do. Same happens in Colombia...not all senators are part of the establishment yet Colombia remains deeply elitist.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 11:43:

there is CK but the gap is not as wide as the Latinoamerican countries, but here in the UK is much easier to get to the top without being in la rosca like in Colombia.
about high class, look at Prince William girlfriend she is the daughter of a self made millionaire and an air hostess yet do you consider her high class? i don't but she is marrying the future king. Of course in the UK if you got money you can go and enter anywhere and i don't mean lots of money if you can pay you go.

About state school girl well here depend the state school, prince Ann sent her kids to State schools and many rich people do, my son best friend at primary school was rich, he went to private school but decided to do his A level in State colleges, and i have seen many kids from Rich parents who do that, can you see this in Colombia?

Some State school here are as good as Privates ones if it no better.
BTW You can socialised at the dorchester bar? as long as you can pay of course ;))

oh about the "try dating a guy on the oxbridge rowing teams if you're state school girl,"

well if she is studying at Oxford University i don't see why not...

her is not like in Colombia, many rich guys don't see much of the girls background, as long as she comes from a good educated family is fine, she doesn't have to be rich.

and i tell you this and have probes :))

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 11:57:

btw i married a guy from the Bradford University and Welsh rowing team ;PP

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 6, 2008, 12:03:

Yes I've heard of Katherine Middleton and how Prince William's friends mock her for being middle class and no aristocratic roots. I do not know whether she is marrying Prince William or not as I tend to keep myself away from celebrity gossip but I have heard the girl has had an awful time trying to measure up to "more suitable" candidates.
In regards to sending children to state schools, of course rich people can afford to do that, come on, surely Princess Anne does not need her children mingling with other rich kids because chances are they will flock towards them anyway. They are royalty regardless of where they go to school, you cannot deny that Princess Anne's children had more opportunities in life than their school peers, and they all received the same education.
In regards to rich Colombian parents sending their children to a state school, yes I have seen it, its called Colegio Pedagogico in calle 127 con 11. Go see for yourself, its a state school attended mostly by upper estratos, you will see drivers and brand new luxury vehicles dropping children off.
Yes some state funded schools are better than private ones, as long as those state funded schools have rich pupils, compare the exam performance of any state funded school in Kensington to one in Hackney.
As for my Dorchester Bar comment, you pay for cocktails not for networking.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 12:34:

Not all are funded by rich people, look at my kids High School, the majority are middle class families, the thing about the school is, classes are small and more personalized, it is one of the best state schools in the country, there are rich kids there but a handful. people moved to the catchment area to get a place in that school there is a maximum of 365 pupils, few years ago it was number 5th in the country

Prince Ann said she wants her kids to grow up as normal as any other kid, that is why they didn't have titles.
I know London have bad state school specially since they have too many kids in a classroom.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Cerealkiller says on Jun 6, 2008, 12:43:

Kat1 thery're not funded by rich people, they're state funded but those schools in affluent boroughs get more money per pupil than those in working class areas. I appreciate the input you've given us but the truth of the matter is the statistics are out there and prove that Britain remains deeply divided along class lines. You are providing very specific examples, and I am sure you're being truthful but personal experience does not constitute a reliable sample. Generally speaking social mobility is indeed better in Britain than in Colombia and arguing the opposite would be completely stupid, but people in Britain are still faced with the glass-ceiling phenomenon commonly attributed to working women. Yes, you can make something of yourself, but you will always have that impenetrable circle that cannot be accessed even if you have all the money in the world. Just look at Mohammed Al-Fayed.

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Desideria (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 12:53:

Perhaps not, CK, and I may have expressed myself rather sloppily too. I just thought that there was a certain permissive understanding of how the "reality" looks like that I really don't share. I KNOW it exists, but I don't have to like it or even much tolerate it and that may well be one of the reasons why I chose to raise up my family in Scandinavia where most people are "normal" and worry little for the lifestyle of the rich and famous. Our princes and princesses behave like pretty normal rich kids and date pretty much who they want...the Crown Prince of Norway married a waitress and single mother Mette-Marit, Crown Princess Victoria of Sweden will probably marry her sweatheart, personal trainer Daniel. Ther is no 100% egalitarian societies of what I know of, not even up here in the north, but themajority of people here can't be bothered with things like what school did you go to and who do you know.

Personally I have nothing against that some people make more money than others. Not everybody has the same level of ambition or needs the same things to feel happy as long as the basic needs are covered. I just believe that everybody ought to have the same opportunities regardless of their family background, wealth or so-called social standing.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kat1 (Moderator) says on Jun 6, 2008, 12:55:

Mohammed Al-Fayed. have been accepted in all social circles in the UK, even the royal family, is some politician who held something against him because they think he is a crook. maybe he is :(

you said

Generally speaking social mobility is indeed better in Britain than in Colombia and arguing the opposite would be completely stupid,

I agree

0 funny, 0 helpful.