Opponents of Colombia's Uribe losing steam - poll

Sr Tertius says on Jul 19, 2005, 14:36:

Adding to Pacho Leal's comments "He said poor Colombians who live without electricity or telephones are left out of such surveys." Add to that the exclusion of rural areas, and the number may not be that high. I don't doubt, however, that Uribe is, overall, a popular politician.

I don't doubt, either, that all the vocal critics of Uribe, and particularly those that are considering running for office, know that their opposition is not popular and may cost them votes. It is admirable that they remain vocal.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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poco says on Jul 19, 2005, 21:53:

Thanks for the reminder I can assure you that Uribe has a greater than 70% approval in RURAL Valle Cauca. I'd need to start looking under rocks to find support for someone else.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Neonovo says on Jul 21, 2005, 15:06:

Even if the country-vote overwhelms the urban vote...can vote-fraud be far behind?
I don't need to cite specific examples of vote-fraud practices; I think most of you will agree is one of the many colombian-traditions we ain't proud of.

Paz
Neonovo

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poco says on Jul 21, 2005, 22:37:

No Vote Fraud - But wasn't asked to help count them. Rural voting is WELL regulated. I've been to one election. The election is held in the largest school. Street is blocked and lots of police standing at both ends and patroling the street to help prevent a "bombing" or so I've been told.

Looks like a Town Festival. I'd say it was a large turnout, lots of people, all day. Brightly colored wheeled kiosks stocked with food, drinks and snacks. Many had a cooler strapped over their shoulder Shouting "BON ICE" or "Helado".

A good time is had by all, even me and I didn't vote (or take any pictures).

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 22, 2005, 10:48:

A question Don't most of us agree that there are basically two election scenarios? One, Uribe is allowed to run for re-election and sweeps it with only token opposition who use the election as a sounding board for opposition positions. Two, Uribe doesn't run, at which point the field is WIDE open and anything could happen.

I think the people who are voicing their opposition now are doing so in anticipation of scenario 2, to get the jump on the competition. And if scenario 1 happens, most of them declare that they were never really serious about opposing Uribe and go back to their lucrative consulting businesses.

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Neonovo says on Jul 22, 2005, 10:50:

Food, drinks and snacks at the Voting-Festival. I hear truckloads of "voters" arrive at these festivals, each with a bottle in their back pocket and the promise of another one afterwards. Of course, in order to collect your premium bottle, you will vote as you're told.

Paz
Neonovo

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poco says on Jul 22, 2005, 12:02:

Hear, Hear I hear truckloads of "voters" arrive at these festivals, each with a bottle in their back pocket and the promise of another one afterwards. Of course, in order to collect your premium bottle, you will vote as you're told.

Ahhh, see you've been listening to the same guy that invented the Eisenhower quote.

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 22, 2005, 12:44:

How would they know? Neonovo, how would they know how you voted? Colombia has a secret ballot. That was one of the big improvements of the new constitution.

But it sounds like a neat conspiracy theory.

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Sr Tertius says on Jul 22, 2005, 12:58:

Trasteo Electoral I don't know the extent of the electoral fraud in Colombia, but at least until a few years ago it was relatively common to hear about "trasteos electorales". Sort of what Neonovo describes: people from town A are lured with food and drinks (if not money) to go to town B and register there, in order to favor a particular candidate. I don't think that those that organized these "trasteos" usually checked on the actual votes. Think of it as the Chavez opposition in VEN taking a bunch of pro-Uribe Colombians and registering them in Caracas for VEN elections... the motivation is already there, it just gets a slight push.

That doesn't mean that they can't verify the votes. It is certainly more difficult than with the old "papeletas", but still not impossible. There use to be what's called the "carrousel": the organizers get a hold of a number of blank ballots, filled them up with the preferred candidate, pass them to the voters, and they have to show up with a blank ballot in order to collect a reward. Then the blank ballot is filled up and goes back into the carrousel.

If we only spent such ingeniousness in worthy causes.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Neonovo says on Jul 22, 2005, 15:39:

Poco, it wasn't the same guy... I've been listening to my future in laws (colombianos rasos, de pura chepa) describing the sorry state of the colombian voter in and around Chiscas, eastern-Boyacá (a town I never heard of until I met them) where for a chicken, or a bottle, you can get just about anyone to vote anyway you want. They were bemoaning the mental state of your average campesino-voter, a subject to deep for me.

As for the "guy that invented the Eisenhower quote", he must've done a damn good job, because it is widely quoted from a speech known as the Military-Industrial Complex Speech, Dwight D. Eisenhower, 1961 and this link can take you to its text in full. This is the relevant paragraph:

"In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the militaryindustrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist."

One thing you and I will agree on, Mr Poco, is that misplaced power is rampant throughout colombia.

That FACT, my friend, I believe sprouts from many sources, one of them, the education system in Colombia, which sadly saddled with the conservative agenda and Catholic-fundamentalisim, will teach bright young man like yourself that it is an uncontested FACT that Jesus, about 2000 years ago, did indeed say "Give Cesar what belongs to Cesar..." and convince you of that as a "fact", while at the same time, disorienting you and your classmates about the meaning and content in the speech of contemporary leaders, such as Eisenhower.

Suddenly I remember a Univisión report (before they got run out of Colombia with death threats) of a small (almost pathetic) protest at a Bogotá campus by the students of a missing professor; these young people looked dazed and confused. Their professor had dared bucked this conservative agenda; he was teaching history as it happened, and is it is being made as I write, and the real meaning of leadership. One gloomy Bogotá morning he disappeard, never to be seen again. Plucked from the middle of the Athens of So. América, by "La mano negra".

In this particular case, I envisioned "La mano negra" as composed of a few of his more conservative and catholic students. See, they couldn't just sit by, and listen to some "ateo-liberal" poison the minds of the nation's youth, so these patriots hashed their little plot, and with daddy's Merceds-SUV (or was it a Landrover? or maybe an olive grenn vehicle from the yard?) and some of his friends in "high-places", probably kidnapped, dismembered, and dispersed the professor somewhere where he will not be found.

If it is any consolation, the professor got the ride of his death in a very luxurious vehicle. (I can see the bullet-proof black windows). He at least got a break from what was probably his daily grind to and from the university, la buseta; and became part of the history which if you dare teach, you loose your life.

Paz
Neonovo

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poco says on Jul 23, 2005, 00:28:

You made your own version of the speech. Humm, both links below furnish a full length text. One is easier to read. Both appear to be “word for word”. Both from reliable sources. Are you a MSU man?

MSU Version

Yale Version

Why did you bother to find and link another source that is quite frankly, a little more difficult to read ?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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Neonovo says on Jul 23, 2005, 13:48:

Thanks for the heads-up on that link... I have relinked to the Yale source; however, these are not "versions". It is not like the Bible, of which there is a version to suit every conservative agenda, every religious school. You can only have several versions of works of fiction, or works of fantasy, such as the Bible.

This is a speech, widely recorded word for word, and recognized by anyone who cares about politics and politicians.

Paz
Neonovo

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Neonovo says on Jul 25, 2005, 08:14:

The military/industrial complex. Just as I'm ready to hang up on the subject, this email pops into my email box: How the military/industrial complex promotes war in order to pad the wallets of the corporate elite.

While not specifically related to Colombia, is is, I believe, a univeral quagmire that applies to all nations.

Paz
Neonovo

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platano says on Jul 25, 2005, 14:53:

An interesting note on voting in Colombia... Colombian women did not even receive the right to vote until 1957, since a husband's or father's ballot was considered to represent the women in his family.

But Colombia is on the move... progress is happening daily. Since the 1950's Colombian women have nearly doubled their particpation in the national workforce and are a force to be reckoned with at the ballot box as well. The growing economic power of women as both providers and consumers contributed to their independence from men, in public and private life.

Plátano, el banano verde
Oxigeno Verde ¡Libertad por Ingrid y los demás!

plátano

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Diomedes Nochez says on Jul 26, 2005, 08:14:

The 1000 people asked were probably a selection of Uribe's relatives ;)

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juancegomez says on Jul 30, 2005, 09:07:

Of note, it seems that the latest Gallup poll, which included many other questions not published in foreign sources, was made through personal "live" interviews, not exclusively through the telephone (as normal polls usually are).

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Sr Tertius says on Jul 30, 2005, 16:58:

Gallup poll Juance, I agree that that's a significant improvement. However, it's target population is still in major urban centers. I'd like to see rural population, red and no-red zones, represented too.

"El que a hierro mata..."

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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poco says on Jul 30, 2005, 22:32:

Surely it is NOT Caesar The education system in Colombia, which sadly saddled with the conservative agenda and Catholic-fundamentalisim, will teach bright young man like yourself that it is an uncontested FACT that Jesus, about 2000 years ago, did indeed say "Give Cesar what belongs to Cesar..." and convince you of that as a "fact", while at the same time, disorienting you and your classmates about the meaning and content in the speech of contemporary leaders, such as Eisenhower.

Give then unto Cesar, that which belongs unto Cesar and to God that which pertains to God.

Is the usual bible text. Perhaps you have conceived of an institution that enlightens to the correct specification? Maybe government TAXES, PAYs and YOU control the institution? Ha,, fat chance any Colombian will want to pay for a NEW institution. The schools are very nice, inexpensive and have done a superior job of providing education in Colombia especially the women.

The MAJORITY of the grade schools in Colombia are CATHOLIC. These schools are the ONLY school available and for all intents and purposes are PUBLIC schools.

What is the point other than to continue innuendos to spew out YOUR beliefs? Why? What is your agenda or this one ? Saving someone? Perhaps helping people you believe can't think for them selves gives you a superior feeling? Perhaps a "war" of ideology in Colombia will satisfy your predilections?

"When you men get home and face an anti-war protester, look him in the eyes and shake his hand. Then, wink at his girlfriend, because she knows she's dating a pussy." Quote - General Tommy Franks

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