On foreigners and integration

john_stark says on Dec 20, 2007, 06:38:

When in Rome, do as the Romans. I'm with Guy B although I refuse to watch the telenovelas.

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LilaM says on Dec 20, 2007, 06:50:

What I think is bring the best from the country you are from and take the best from the new one, of course guy B. Enjoy the times with the new friends, learn as much as you can and live the way they live. And of course take a looooootttt of pictures.

"You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don´t try" B. Sills

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morphus says on Dec 20, 2007, 06:54:

"it seems silly to live in Colombia but stay within a bubble of comfortable westernism"

Why not? Colombians do it too.

"The only Colombians he knows are English speaking prepagos"

If GuyA learns some Spanish, he can get better deals with Spanish speaking prepagos.

"He lives in Estrata 6"

If you have the money, why not?

" He chooses to live in Estrata 2"

It will be harder to impress prepagos. Colombian men will want to kill him once he starts boning chicas for free.

"So which one is more pathetic?"

Neither! Both types will be living useless lives in Colombia

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Leeroy says on Dec 20, 2007, 06:58:

> "it seems silly to live in Colombia but stay within a bubble of comfortable westernism"
>
> Why not? Colombians do it too.

Yes - something which complicates the matter. Many might argue that Guy A is just as Colombian as Guy B.

> "He lives in Estrata 6"
>
> If you have the money, why not?

Agreed - I live in Estrata 6!

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Leeroy says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:01:

gib - you raise another point. Are Colombians comfortable with tejo-wielding, ajiaco-downing gringos buying their electronic goods in San Andresito?

And I wouldn't have said Unicentro is a Guy A place!

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Dillard666 says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:02:

this is a great question, I have never visited colombia but plan on visiting some time next year, personally I think guy b is running a risk in attempting to be something that he is not, which is colombian, it is great to go into a country with an open mind, but you must always be aware that you are not in your home country.

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Leeroy says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:03:

Unicentro?

Nah man, Retiro - all the way!

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:22:

I've live in a 2-3 attempting to be something that I'm not for over 2 years. I've never fit in with the Rico's of the world. Even though I was raised with them. Something that I'm not? Then why do strangers see me as a Colombian when I'm in public and I'm asked for directions or other info. Or when walking, greeted with Hola Pisano, amigo bueno como estas, comos estas su nina bonita.......... Ya, soy Cartagueno. No mas Gringo. I'm proud of the contacts and progress that I've my in my short time here. Not being a hard charging overagressive, loud gringo has paid off. 2008 looks real good for me. I've also, been receiving offers of employment. May be preping a couple of places for gringos wanting to live here.......

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:47:

I will never be one of them and don't want to be. My mind operates differently than them. I'd say that I've real aquaintances and not real friends. The same goes for my wife's family. I've actually drawn back a bit from both of them. I tempered any help I give. I loan NO money. In this instance, we're helping a man who's leg was burned 6 years ago and has never recovered. No family and live in the back of a tire repair shops and has been living on tips. No money just food, medicine and a new change of clothes. Others in the barrio have observed our actions and have chimmed in with as bit of help too. I'm not known here as a "Daddy Gotbucks". No papaya here. I've learned (mostly through my consttuction experience here) that many a person here will smile at you, say all the right things, all the while have alternate plans. 2007 has be a very tough year for me and my pocketbook. Many lessons have been learned. Mistakes made and hoplefully not repeated again and again. I've plenty of spies in my family. When the fools want to talk and gossip, I hear it within 24 hours. Hence there's a few in my barrio and other places that I no longer acknowlege.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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tejasmarcos says on Dec 20, 2007, 07:56:

you mean you guys don't watch "la hija del mariachi"? rorro just returned to garibaldi plaza for gods sake! viva la drama!

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 08:30:

Speaking as a brit and one who has (especially in the last couple of years) seen my english culture evaporate before my eyes as the country becomes inundated with foreigners who make no attempt to speak the language of their adopted country, understand the laws, customs and culture I have quite strong views on the subject.

I have been to Colombia 3 times now, my wife is colombian and I love the country so much in much the same way as everyone else on this board. When I look at Colombia I see many things that remind me of how my country was about 20-30 years ago. We have always welcomed (in the main) people coming to britain and bringing something of their culture with them but this has always been on the understanding that at the end of the day you should respect the country and should not change it to the one you have just left. If you liked whichever country you have just left so much stay there and enjoy.

My point is that even if you are Guy B you will never be Colombian in the truest sense but you can adopt the country in a way that both Colombia and Guy B becomes richer for the experience.

What Is Guy A doing? All he is doing is diluting the population and thinning the culture. If there is a large number of Guy As that turn up all of a sudden then goodbye Colombia. It will lose its identity.

It is inevitable that, given enough time, the distinctions between different countries will become more blurred but I think Colombia has a lot to be proud of and it should try and hold onto that identity for as long as possible.

If people separate themselves rather than integrate it creates ghettos, it polarises populations and eventually leads to racism. Is America really culturally diverse and accepting as it would have us believe? There was a time in England in the early 90s when it really felt like different cultures were coming together but that started to evaporate in my opinion when the equal opportunities act really started to kick and remind people just how different everyone was. I think America has the same problem.

I went to France and Holland recently. It was really refreshing to see far more acceptance of the fact taht people were differnt but so what. I was only in each place for a weekend so it was hard to draw any great conclusions but there was definitely a more positive image coming from the people on the public transport.

If I go to live in colombia, which I would like to do then i will aspire to being Guy B because I have seen the damage that Guy A can do to a culture.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Strobers says on Dec 20, 2007, 08:51:

Great post

Personally, I think that your own ethnicity has a lot to do with how well you integrate into the Colombia culture or really any culture for that matter. If you are Latino you are entering a world that you already are somewhat accustomed. Being Mexican I've never felt that out of place when I'm in Colombia. I speak the language and there are many similarities between the two cultures; the view of family, social/societal relationships, etc.

What sets me apart, and is something that I don't think will ever be overcome, is that everyone I meet in Colombia knows I'm not from Colombia. I will always be known as a foreignor. I asked my wife one time how come so many people know I'm not from Colombia and she said that my Spanish gives it away and the fact that I'm walking around with a Nikon SLR all the time. My Brother-in-Law said that I carry myself a certain way. That he can tell I'm from the U.S. It used to bug me that people saw me as an estranjero, but now I just accept the fact that I will be accepted, but accepted thru the filter of who I am, what I represent (real or imagined) based on where I'm from. I wish it wasn't the case because when I retire to Colombia in the next few years I want to live below the radar. I don't want to be "seen" so to speak. I want to blend in.

It's a little disheartning at times because I don't want to be looked upon as a foreignor, but the reality is that I am, no matter how many contacts I make, how many arepas I eat, how much I strive to integrate myself into the Colombia culture. No matter what, I will always be a Mexican-American who lives in Colombia. One foot will always be planted somewhere else because I'm not native born.

Responding specifically to Leeroy's post, I would like to be Guy B, but what I carry into the Colombia culture will always inhibit me from doing so.

"Life is too serious to be taken seriously"

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Mononoke28 says on Dec 20, 2007, 08:57:

Guy B gets my vote all the way. Guy A sounds like a total prick.

Diana

Diana

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Strobers says on Dec 20, 2007, 08:58:

GIB, I don't think superficiality is something that is just reflective of the Colombia culture. I see superficiality every time I come to work and hear, "Good Morning, how are you" "Fine thank you." or when I go to the grocery store, "Did you find everything you wanted sir?" Superficiality is part of the human condition.

"Life is too serious to be taken seriously"

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:07:

Ahhh who cares. Really the only thing that matters is your family and kids. Do they care where you are from? No. If you don't have a family then you really are always going to be somewhat of an outsider anywhere you go in the world. If I move to Cailfornia I would be an outsider as well as Colombia. I guess what I am saying is I am who I am and wanting to blend in is really an insecurity in my book. I also agree with Morphus. I love this look down your nose crap at living in Estrata 6. Why the hell would I want to move to Colombia to live at a lower standard than I currently live. My mother in law was from Estrada 3-4 when she grew up. She married well (husband since passed) and lives in a beautiful place in Estrada 6. All her family lives in the old neighborhood and she spends just about everyday there with family and friends. She shops eats and even has her her hair done in the old neighborhood. However at the end of the day she drives her car back to Estrada 6 nice home that is secure and comfortable. Everyone of her family and friends would love to do the same and are trying. So I guess this whole idea of living in a certain Estrada is strange to me. I love hanging out with their family and friends and spend most of my free time in Estrada 3-4 but if I can live in a nice secure building with a pool and all the luxuries and help the Why the hell not??

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:09:

I was Guy B, or somewhere abouts. Just because I married into Strata 5, not Strata 2, I never played tejo, bought my stuff at the malls and seldom rode a bus. I wonder why all you gringos when describing a typical local family/or everyday life situation describe strata 2, max 3?

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Strobers says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:12:

Lowell's comments are right on. I handle things the exact same way. When we attempted to have some of my wife's family visit last year, I told them they would need to save money for the visas because we couldn't afford it. We both make it a point to communicate to the family that living in the U.S. is not all that it's cracked up to be. You have to work your ass to the bone to stay afloat; especially if you live in California. Whether or not $1.00 U.S. = $2.00 Colombia pesos means nothing because now matter what the ratio is, when I'm in the States I'm still working my ass off to live. I think they understand that now clearly, which is why when we visit, they pay their way. There is nothing expected from us financially. It makes visiting a lot more fun and makes me more open from the standpoint of helping them out by picking up groceries, taking them out for dinner, etc.

Regarding the comment about friends, unfortunately, too many people think they have a lot of friends, but they are really temporary alliances. At the first sign of trouble, they bail. They have no problem having some beers with you, but shine you on when you are hurting and need someone to talk to. The way a person truly becomes a friend is through months and years of hanging out with the person and living the best and the worst with them. I have three or four friends that have been part of my life for more than 35 years. Those are true friends.

When I go to Colombia I know I will meet people. I'm fairly sociable. But I would never trust anybody with significant personal information. I would keep my friendships very simple until I developed the necessary trust that only comes from spending some significant time with a person. Even so, it still can never really be the same.

"Life is too serious to be taken seriously"

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Leeroy says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:20:

Desi, you're missing the point. The OP didn't say that people in estrata 5 never do Guy B stuff. I live in estrata 6 and I play tejo!

I just used tejo, san andresito and chivas as examples of "typical working class stuff".

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Albatross says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:23:

Interesting discussion... my first couple of trips abroad, I probably stood out like a Tourist as much as a guy from Podunk in New York City for the first time... you know, the ones with the plaid shorts and cheap cameras... who are often told to go and do something particularly unnatural with themselves or their mothers because they just stepped in front of a cab 'cause they were looking up at the Empire State Building.

Later, I lived in England and then Prague for a few years. Although never actually under the illusion that I could really fit into British culture (Slavic Eastern Europe was an even bigger stretch), I fell in love with both places anyway. But, in spite of my desires, all that fell apart and I ended back in the States... miserable.

So now I've turned to South America, I speak passable Spanish and after years of exposure, understand and enjoy a great deal of the culture. But will I ever REALLY fit into Latin American culture... I don't think so.

Like it or not, my roots are Anglo-Saxon America... even worse... Puritanical Small-Town New England.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:24:

Whether you become integrated into Colombian society has to do with a lot of factors, one of them being your age. If you move into a country, any country, your chances of making a successful adaptation are much greater if you're still relatively young. That's why some of you older gringos will never feel totally at home in Colombia, especially if your Spanish is not too great. That's the other thing; there is no sense even taking about integration before you have started speaking fluent Spanish. Language is the one single most significant cultural carrier that exists in human societies. You will think gringo, act gringo, dream gringo, eat gringo, dance gringo as long as you keep on talking gringo.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:25:

GIB, I don't disagree with you change is inevitable. The problem is when the change is forced at a rate that cannot be accomodated. By nature we will always aspire to get the best things in life we can whether those things are American, English, Chinese or Colombian.

There have been studies done that show where 2 cultures merge the more developed culture (Technology, Media and to a degree wealth) will over ride the other. South America has a mountain of examples that show that. American culture is spreading throughout the world (including Britain) predominantly through Hollywood. They have the biggest film industry, The film industry either depicts an American way of life or an American view of the way life is elsewhere and subliminally this becomes the face of popular culture. Nearly everyone around the world knows what The Simpsons, ET and Home Alone are about. There are many, many very subtle Americanisms that creep their way into the subconscious.

Strobers, You are living what I am explaining in my post. Thank you for the example. People whereever they are appreciate the respect you show their culture and therefore them and in due course will respect you more for trying to be like them, even if you fail at it now and again.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Leeroy says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:29:

"If you move into a country, any country, your chances of making a successful adaptation are much greater if you're still relatively young. That's why some of you older gringos will never feel totally at home in Colombia, especially if your Spanish is not too great."

Agreed - of the (recently arrived) expats I know, the younger ones generally do a lot better in terms of socialising themselves into Colombian culture.

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Albatross says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:35:

"Language is the one single most significant cultural barrier that exists in human societies".
Couldn't agree more... which is why the U.S. needs get everyone (In the U.S.) speaking English.

Omni - while I generally agree with you about insidious American culture ... I disagree that Great Britain has a thing to worry about when it comes to film. While smaller in quantity and Box-Office Gross, the Brits consistently, match Hollywood in film quality. British actors take their craft far more seriously and as a result, can generally act circles around their American counterparts.

Also, Bollywood cranks out more movies than Hollywood.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 09:46:

Desideria- Age is not just a number but it is also a state of mind. As you get older you tend to become more close minded but it does not mean that is always the case. I regard myself as quite young thinking and I suspect as well (but don't hold me to it) that many of the people on this board that Like Colombia are also more free thinking than the average for their age no matter how old they are.

As a generalism it is generally true!

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:03:

Albatross- We brits do knock out some great films. We also put out some really awful ones as well. Where we fall down is that many of our films are not distributed strongly in other countries (other than the odd one or two) and we do not turn out anywahere near the volume that is produced by America. If you think about what constitutes an average nights TV in England then the majority will be American. The same with films at the cinema and the same can be said of the local DVD shop (I nearly said store! another americanism).

You also need to consider the audience British people like to see british films because there is something in it that we can bond to culturally. Colombians like to see films from their own country for the same reason and Bollywood is a special case. They produce a phenomenal number of films and they are very popular in the indian communities but outside of that there is very little following i.e. preaching to the converted.

This is where America is able to make in roads in exporting its culture.

The common language of the American film is English. I am almost a bit ashamed to admit it but for a long time English have travelled places and just assumed that they would be understood because in general they are. Colombia is not like that so my friends and family that came to Colombia for my wedding had a big culture shock and my wife and I spent a lot of the time translating for them.

I think it will get to a point eventually when only a few languages will be left one of the chinese dialects, Arabic and English. I am talking about 100 or 200 years but I think that all these other languages (including spanish) will go the way of the welsh. Still there but seen as an extra and not necessary for life.

I know I have probably just signed my death warrant for a firing squad based on typical posts I have seen on this site but its what I think based on seeing what has happened historically.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:21:

Leeroy, sorry, I just read the post sloppily.
Your question was: which is more pathetic?
I think it's Guy A and I don't see much integration in his lifestyle. It's just a transplant but no roots. Pretty common in multinational employee circles; you don't strive to adapt because you're not permanently living at the place.
I'm absolutely sure most gringos living in Colombia are living in higher stratas, if not for anything else, for safety reasons at least. My objection for making a comparison with a strata 2 lifestyle is that it is unrealistic. The gringos marrying poor barrio girls do NOT move to live there. There might be an occasional colombiamike, but it's really rare. Lowell and poco are two notable exemptions to that rule.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:27:

I don't have the funds to live or buy in a 6 if I wanted to. So I do with what I have. Win Balloto and my life will surely change.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:30:

So, you live in a poor barrio not out of choice but out of necessity? That makes sense, of course.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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morphus says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:33:

GuyA is probably happier and under less stress.

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:35:

If I was bucks up, yes. But I'd probably miss some of the goings on here. The 5-6's do seem to be always shut up. What I like to do is buy some vacant property above my barrio and make a cool finca.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:36:

pool, animals, fishing ponds, moto track, tennis court, huge party area.......

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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nueva york bombero says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:37:

Who gives a shit? You do what suits you and your life. Who are we to judge?
I'd probably be like "B", but overanalyzing it isn't good.
Ever hear of Yin and Yang? Balance of A & B.......

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morphus says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:46:

"The gringos marrying poor barrio girls do NOT move to live there"

So you think you are the only one that can marry into strata 5?

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:52:

...But where is the right place for that balance?

I think the reason we are posting is to not do the classic thing that people do find somewhere beautiful, treat it like crap, tell everyone else about it, watch them treat it like crap and then sit and wonder why its not the beautiful thing we first found.

I am saying that i can see first hand evidence of that in England and I don't want the same thing to happen to Colombia. If I can make at least one person see and agree with what i am saying then the posts have been worthwhile.

I have been sitting on the sidelines waiting for something worth posting for and this moved me.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:58:

Morphus, where did I say that? I only said that the gringos who marry barrio girls usually establish a home with the wife in a barrio much above her original neighbourhood strata level. I haven't done any research on the topic, it does not interest me enough, but of what I hear I can safely deduct that for most of these girls landing a gringo is an improvement on their lifestyle.True love happens too, I'm not denying that fact and there are matches made in heaven in all social classes.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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nueva york bombero says on Dec 20, 2007, 10:59:

I totally understand and agree. But do you honestly think you can save Colombia?
Or PBH? I love Colombia (why else would I read the ridiculous posts here), but if tourism
brings every gringo and their brothers here, wouldn't it help the economy?
It will kill travelers and Colombia lovers, but how do you control that?

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Omnispire says on Dec 20, 2007, 11:16:

NYB- I am not a hero, a martyr or anything of the like but I do think if everyone does a bit of good then the whole world becomes a lot better. That Is NOT going to happen but I still think I should encourage where ever possible for people to do the positive thing. That's just me. It makes me feel at peace with the world and even though I know there are many bad things going on (including our lovely Colombia) I like to think that in some small way I can make a difference.

Tourism is a double edged sword. It will bring lots of money into the country and it will allow Colombia to stand on its own two feet without depending on the support of other nations but as that money comes in and the prosperity and standard of living rises this will have an impact on colombias ability to be competitive on the world stage. A lot of the manurfacturing and farming industry will no longer be cheaper than other countries. All colombia will be able to fall back on is the tourism industry (which is very fickle). ( I know there is a lot more besides but i am making a point).

As one of the main producers of Cocaine it will cost more and more money to produce and transport it so that it will drive the cost of the street price and eventually this will impact the cartels etc. in Colombia. They will be forced to produce the stuff in other countries. As much as it has been a terrible poison and lead to a great deal of misery for colombia it has also brought great amounts of wealth. Is plan Colombia really about eradicating the crop or is it a greater plan.

NYB- you sound very cynical. I am but I also try to keep an open mind.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 20, 2007, 11:32:

I hope someday I'll be an exception to the rule that Desi was just talking about. I lived in an estrato 4 apartment, but I felt much more comfortable in Mrs. RJ's mother's barrio - an estrato 2. That barrio just seemed more alive. My apartment complex was boring, the people seemed snooty or snobbish, and I can't stand that. And that was a 4 in Villavo! I can't imagine how stuck up an estrato 6 barrio in Bogota would be. No thanks, not my style. Ideally, I would like to find a larger place in an estrato 2, and then fix it up on the inside real nice. I new a family that were probably millionaires (US dollars) in Acacias. They lived in what would have to be an estrato 2. The outside of their row house looked frankly like a dump. But you walk inside, and WOW!

Socially, I seemed to fit in with the estrato 2 and under crowd a lot better than the 5 and 6 crowd. The 5 and 6 crowd seemed like they would try and go out of their way to impress me. Wined and dined by the hired help at a finca, expensive scotch whisky being served, "you use the main ranch hand's horse", "check out our new washer and dryer", etc. I had much more fun and felt comfortable personally playing tejo, packing 5 people in a taxi to go to a club, sleeping in a plastic chair on the sidewalk, knowing the barrio tienda owners, etc. I wasn't treated differently by any people in that crowd - at least that I can recall right now. And I certainly am not saying this to be "sensational". It is just my true, personal experience.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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morphus says on Dec 20, 2007, 11:42:

R_J, That looked like a nice place to live.

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 11:50:

I love all this talk about Estrada living. Every Colombian I know living in Estrada 2-4 would move in a milli-second to Estrada 6. I met only one family in Envigado. They literally own probably 20-30 buildings. They are to say the least eccentric. The wife has a huge speech impediment and my even be slightly challenged and the kids are odd. Anyway they live in an Estrada 4 neighborhood in a regular looking house and don't show any money. Everyone knows they are loaded and all anyone talks about is how CHEAP they are. Everyone says the same thing and I mean everyone. It just is sort of funny that a Colombian from Colombia wants to live better but a gringo from a riched nation wants to live lower.

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Robert Jorge says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:03:

Morphus: The wife saw the pictures, and made me take them out. I don't know why, but it is her family so I had to comply. To those who didn't see them, there was just a picture of me and the wife in a tejo club - all sweaty and dirty with clay. The other picture was a typical family "get drunk and sing and dance" night in mom's house.

Brians, that is ironic. Though the way I look at it, feeling comfortable in an estrato 2 barrio isn't living lower. For me, it is being alive. And if Colombians perceive that as being cheap, so be it.

BEWARE of gold diggers.

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tomtom33 says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:13:

What anyone wants Colombia or anyplace else to be means shit. It's going to be what it's going to be.

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:13:

Not putting you down at all RJ. I think you just enjoy people for who they are just like I do. I have friends because I like and trust them. I have friends who are dirt poor and friends who can buy me over 100 times. The person is all that matters. The point I was trying to make is there is this "I live with the people attitude" on this board that makes me laugh. I don't know one Colombian outside of the family I mentioned that does not want to live in a more secure and nicer area. Hell most the Colombians I see brag about living in a higher estrada. However if you are a gringo and want a nice place then we are not really being part of the culture. I actually believe that Morphus cuts through it perfectly. I actually think he is a person I could be friends with because he doesn't BS anyone and calls it like it is. He also makes me laugh with his comments as well. Anyway what Desi said is pretty accurate. You can't be part of the culture unless you speak the language. Otherwise all the "Living with the people" BS is just funny to me.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:17:

It's all about being authentically who you really are. Guy A sounds like a bit of a dork and IMO, anyone who lives in a foreign country and doesn't learn the language is depriving themselves of the best of everything. But people like Guy B are often just wannabees, justlike the rich suburban white kids pretending to be gangstas and all inner-city in the US.

Like Strobers, people in Colombia always know I'm foreign. Usually they think I'm from some other Spanish speaking country they can't quite place. Almost never do they think I'm from the USA. I like to cross the economic divides of Colombia as much as possible but for me to go live in a poor barrio would be both imprudent, safety wise, and also, I think, a bit arrogant. For my part I do my best to treat everyone of all "estratos" with all the respect they deserve as fellow human beings and I don't get caught up in a lot of the class consciousness that surrounds one here.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:17:

Robert Jorge, It's mainly for safety reasons why I wouldn't want to live in a strata 2 barrio. Granted, I like a minimum of comfort too, floors that are easy to clean, good drinking water, no garbage dumps nearby, no factories and no seedy night-life nearby, street lights and night watchmen making their rounds, the sound of their whistle, good sanitation and roofs that don't leak. It's just for the practical reasons I prefer higher stratas; I guess that's what I'm trying to say. There are good people living under leaky roofs too and lovely children walking barefoot on dirt floors, but for me there's nothing especially romantic about poverty.

Brians, I also know people who prefer to live in low-end barrios even if they could well afford to live in strata 5 or 6; mainly because they either want to pay less for utilities or because they like the ambience in poor barrio better, perhaps grew up in a poor barrio. There's more "life" in the poorer barrios and it's more out on the streets. People help each other and look after each other; oftentimes there's much more community spirit in a strata 3 or 2 barrio than in 5 or 6.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:18:

The upper estratos here are all on the flat area of the town. I'm on a bit of a hill, have a nice view, no flooding problems and dead end street. That's what I'm doing. I've bought one of the places and am slowly adding on and up. Others here have and are doing it. Some are even making the front of their places nice. Not often done before.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:27:

That's Cartago, right?
It's a different life in the pueblos, but it sounds like you know what you're doing.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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tejasmarcos says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:39:

i guess i'm the only "la hija del mariachi" fan here :(

there is no way to get around watching novelas here if you are dating colombianas.

estrada = status & status is a dividing line here, much like race is in the USA.

i personally like a mix as i feel i can relax around lower strata folk, but i always like the finer things of the upper strata. however, upper strata folk make me a little nervous to be around, kinda like the USA.......

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 12:41:

Desi the people that stay and don't want to pay higher energy bills equal cheap. The higher estrada is safer and quite honestly nicer. Granted the life in the poorer barrio there is more energy and people do help neighbors but I really will tell you unless you find an older couple used to living in the same neighborhood their whole life then any single or young married couple etc. will want to move. They want their families to live in a nicer area and safer area etc.. The same point can be multiplied around the world. Forget where you live and learn the language. Communication is the most important aspect. I just laugh at gringos on here trying to brag about living amougst the people etc.. I love nothing more than kicking it at my wife's friends estrada 3 bar and paying 1 mil peso a beer and doing nothing but watch the people go by but in the day but then I want a nice dinner and be able to relax in my gated community in estrada 6 at night.

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lpdiver says on Dec 20, 2007, 13:29:

I have stayed in Lareles (strata 5) and Doce de Octobre (strata 1 or 2). Enjoyed myself more in the lower strata but had to keep the guard up much more.

t

"cook some rice!"

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wendell13 says on Dec 20, 2007, 13:46:

"what the fuck would I come to Colombia for?"

The women

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 13:47:

GIB I am sure Colombia will change anyone. I mean it is a different country. I also don't put you in the category of "I live with the people not like a gringo" camp. My point is simply there is a attitude here on PBH that unless you live in a lower estrada you don't know Colombia. I don't want to flame people but man I just laugh when I see the posts "Poblado is not Colombia" or "You have to leave Poblado to see Colombia". Every Colombian I know brags about how great Poblado looks etc.. I do not agree with you about living the good life in the US though. I live in in one of the best zip codes in the USA. Have a great job but my wife's lifestyle was far easier in Colombia. She didn't have to clean and shop and make beds etc.. Here we pitch in to do those things and I probably couldn't find a way to spend in a month in Colombia what I spend in a month on my monthly bills here in the US.

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aztec says on Dec 20, 2007, 13:50:

"I wonder why all you gringos when describing a typical local family/or everyday life situation describe strata 2, max 3?" Desideria

Does seem that way. At the risk of getting flamed I think they are intimidated by the others (4,5 & 6) and as a rule know little about them. Those women are generally more educated and thus less willing to accept pablum. A gringo has to work harder and offer more before winning their hand!

I am making a generalization when I say that women in the strata 2 or 3 are more desperate. Therefore, they are less demanding and easier "conquered".

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Brians says on Dec 20, 2007, 13:58:

Aztec you will get flamed for bringing up the desperate woman thing. The thing I see is the "they know how to live" and "they are more alive". I do have a lot of fun with my mother in laws side of the family. We drink and party etc..They are great but I would not trust them as far as I could throw them and my mother in law would tell you the same thing. People are looking out for themselves first (generalization). The lower estrada has more motivation to try to take from me. I do not budge and will not give money. I will lend a small amount that I feel they can pay back and be up their ass if it is not paid back. I cry poor all day long to keep them from asking. However I don't have to do that with the other upper estrada side of the family. As a matter of fact I had to win them over as a someone they can trust.

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lpdiver says on Dec 20, 2007, 14:12:

Actually...I didn't "conquer" my paisa...rather, she conquered me!!

t

"cook some rice!"

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tejasmarcos says on Dec 20, 2007, 15:14:

brians - i had the same experience with an ex here in medellin. the best way to sum it up was her and her family had a "survivor mentality". they were really sweet people, but they had to beg and borrow a little each month just to get by. always late with the bills, pulling one lightbulb from one room to use it in another, living hand to mouth. however, some simple budgeting techniques would have rememdied much of the situation. i don't think they were motivated at all to budget and it would have been very difficult to change their ways.......

trying to walk a straight line on sour mash and cheap wine...

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Lowell says on Dec 20, 2007, 15:36:

Desperate? Not when you win over the highly wanted Barrio Princess. Budget? Unheard of. In many ways they're their own worst enemy. Change? Intentional ignorance? Failure to progress with the times?

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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David Pristupa says on Dec 20, 2007, 17:05:

Perhaps the guy didn't want to assimilate.
Some people are posted by their companies
to foreign countries and have to take the
assignment.
Some cultures require a person to reinvent
themselves which can be next to impossible. I have experienced that myself.
If living in such a situation causes such discomfort I would recommend leaving.
The sight a monsterous cruiseship in Cartegna is akin to a middle finger being
pointed at the poor people of that city.
Although political colonization by richer
countries by force isnt always happening by force.
(That's another heated debate).
My concern is economic takeover. Foreign landownership, forced consumerism are
effective in this diasapora of cultures.
The US gets the brunt of the blame but
Canada is no better in this respect. The
culture of greed has established itself
in North America since the 80s. Now
People are poaching on 'less developed'
countries. The wealthier countries attempt to package foreign cultures and
sell it at an inflated price. North American
business culture laudes about the 'successes' in foreign lands and take the
credit for work done by these other people The most 'capitalistic' countries
can't live within their budget and have
to poach off other countries.
My purpose of going to foreign country
Is to make it better and try to assimilate.
I do like modern amenities but can live with out the excess baggage of excessive consummer goods, monster houses, SUVs,
I hate that stuff..........

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BAQ says on Dec 20, 2007, 18:08:

You are trying to be politically correct, SCREW IT, who cares what others do. You need to do whats COMFORTABLE FOR YOU. If you want to become a colombian citizen, knowck yourself out, if you want to stay in a bubble do that also. I dont understand why people get all worked up of this silly stuff

Semper Fidelis !

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Gator says on Dec 20, 2007, 19:10:

Very interesting post. Rule ONE-if you are not willing to assimilate do NOT make the move See Subject B).

Rule two-where you live is and with whom you associate with is a personal choice. Like the old saying-different strokes for different folks.

We live in a six, Las Rosales. and I am reasonably certain my neighbors and Mrs. Gator consider themselves Colombians. Even though I am a permanent resident I eat, think and feel like a Colombian.

Brians, BAQ and GBI are all right and have found their personal comfort level.

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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john_stark says on Dec 20, 2007, 20:45:

This whole issue of "assimilation" comes up all the time in many contexts. We were city folk who moved to the country at a time when our little town was fairly small and insular. We didn't try to change it and we adapted to the local culture which was focused on ranching, 4-H and rodeo. My children and I became adept horsemen, competed in local rodeos, and raised cattle. My girls showed animals at the 4-H show every January. As years go by and more and more city people come here to live, they are the kind that don't want to adapt. They don't ranch, they don't have horses or cattle, and they know nothing about rodeo. The town is changing and not for the better. It's becoming just like the city they left behind. I would hate to see this happen to Colombia.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Dec 20, 2007, 20:58:

That's why I brought my horses and goats with me to Bogota, John. It's just a pain, though, getting them into the elevator to my penthouse.

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Bren68 says on Dec 20, 2007, 21:23:

Its a hard thing to define. Going back to the original post. Both Guy A and B have their own ways, I'm sure. You can't say one is more or less pathetic than the other. Essentially the same, really.
I think I was becoming 'Guy B' when i was there, but that is because I wanted to be involved more. I was planning to stay for a long time, perhaps permanently? Although i felt frustrated sometimes, as I wasn't learning the language as quickly as i would have hoped for. But learning a new culture and dynamic was exciting.
As far as Estrato 2 or 3 , or even 5 or 6 for that matter. I know my GF at the time was from what would be considered an upper-middle to upper class family, Estrato 6, I think?? Not sure really. But, she was very aware of that, and very careful 'to avoid' those in 'other' areas. Some may call it snobbery, but its a fact of life. As she often said to me, 'don't trust anyone, especially the staff'. "Maids have been known to sell their bosses to Farc or Mafia after working for them for 10 years"
I'm para-phrasing there, but that's the gist of it. It shows a real dis-trust of the lower classes especially. But it also was spread accross the board to anyone unknown.
Some may say given Colombia's history, its probably warranted. Who knows?? I know that I found it uncomfortable at times. But then, I was not raised in the 'Colombian' environment either.
But, if you move to another country, of course assimilation is needed. Maybe there are things your not entirely comfortable with, but don't criticise openly is what I learned anyway. Accept and work around it. Become part of the community, don't forge a new community, lest you be forgotten.

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john_stark says on Dec 20, 2007, 22:13:

Hehehehe, the goats are always a problem, Mr. H. Smart enough to get into trouble and not smart enough to get out of it.

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 01:52:

John_Stark- Thank you for giving another example of what I was talking about in my posts.

Although I never really said which one is pathetic. As Gator said different strokes for different folks. I would just like Guy A to stroke somewhere else.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 21, 2007, 02:10:

I always think the best way to adapt to the new culture is by Integration, the more you submerge into your new culture the better and the easier it will be for you, also you can learn so much from it and understand more your new way of living and people and people will accept you as one of them.

Now As long as you can dominate the language after being there for 2 years, work there, mixed with the local people , keep update what's going on in the country, then doesn't matter if you live in estrato 6, make empanadas or not or watch telenovelas.


the main thing is the language if you have been in Colombia or other country and can't bother to learn the language I think is part of no wanting to integrate fully.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 21, 2007, 02:24:

BTW I agree with Omnispire he wrote "My point is that even if you are Guy B you will never be Colombian in the truest sense but you can adopt the country in a way that both Colombia and Guy B becomes richer for the experience" I have been living in the UK for years and i don't feel less Colombia my roots are well seated :) but i am learning so much from this new culture which has enrich me even more and i am have submerge fully, that's why everybody accept me as part of them

OK Still I can't make Pasties or Gravy heheh and I hate British soup operas

I agree with Desi Pathetic number one, if he doesn't want to learn from the new culture and be part of it then he should have stayed in his Country.

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 03:35:

Kat1- I am English and I have never made a pastie and I don't like the soap operas here (they are all so depressing) but I can make a mean gravy for roast dinner. I will post to you directly if you want to know the secret to a good gravy.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 04:27:

Its not exactly that I worry but I think about things- a lot. Up until a couple of years ago I thought everybody did that but no, as my wife says I am a special case.

The point of having a forum is a chance to air your opinion and possibly change the world.

Not everything in Colombia is great and it is worth taking things from other cultures if it enriches the culture. Look at Indian restaurants in England. It has now become part of English culture to go for a beer and a curry on a Friday night.

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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Brians says on Dec 21, 2007, 04:33:

GIB I think that you are right in the fact that most are probably good and honest. However a few bad apples spoil the bunch. Since that is the case as a foreigner you need to be a bit paranoid. The the most important thing to me is my family and being a cynic is part of the job.

As far as assimulation I think it would be impossible to move to another country and not assimulate somewhat. My comment was only aimed at the posters whom I read that have this ego that living in lower estrada is real Colombia. I just say the hell with that and if I can afford a car and pay my taxes I want the best for my family. At the end of the day my kids and wife are the only things that I am leaving on this planet. I am not moving to Colombia to tough it as I can stay where I am now in the good old USA. My wife and I want to live in Colombia to be closer to her family as I don't have any here. If I want to live in Poblado then I will because it will make me feel safer and life is a bit easier. I have a good friend who lives in Medellin who moved there for the simple reason he can live better there than in his home country. He said to me "Why would I move to Colombia to have a harder life?".

Therefore I will never become a Colombian just like my neighbor here in the US from Australia will never become an American. He is here for his family and a better job and life. I will be in Colombia for my family as well. My Colombian friends in the US are also here for a better life. Everyone searches for what is best for them. The attitude on here is what annoys me about living in an upper estrada but that is the beauty of this site as well. People offer their opinions and that is fine and this is mine.

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morphus says on Dec 21, 2007, 04:43:

"The town is changing and not for the better. It's becoming just like the city they left behind. I would hate to see this happen to Colombia"

John_Stark, why would you hate to see it in Colombia? Do you plan to go back? It sounds like you are happy where you are.

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 04:51:

GIB- That is human nature if life is rosy and sweeter than you have had it before why would you want to upset the apple cart and go onto uncertainty and probably something not as good for being dishonest or bad in some way. If you treat people good there is a fair chance they will treat you good back.

Of course some people confuse this with weakness. The carrot and the stick. Be firm and hard when necessary and kind and generous otherwise. People soon work out what is the better way and not to mess you about.

There is that crazy quote along the lines of insanity is to do the same thing again and again and expect to get different results. I guess that makes your friends crazy ;-)

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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morphus says on Dec 21, 2007, 05:05:

Actually, I have'nt seen GuyA in Colombia yet. Thats a bit extreme: "He doesn't speak a word of Spanish. He only eats western food, shops solely in Carulla, and only drinks in "pubs"." LOL...how many pubs are there in Colombia? Not a word of Spanish? You bettter speak a few words of Spanish in Colombia or you will be in for a bad time.

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Leeroy says on Dec 21, 2007, 05:10:

Okay morphus, "doesn't speak a word of Spanish" might be a little harsh. Let's say Guy A knows these phrases:

"Kyeh-row Oonah serv-eh-zuh"
"Grass-y-arse"

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Dec 21, 2007, 05:11:

Brians wrote "My comment was only aimed at the posters whom I read that have this ego that living in lower estrata is real Colombia" I know that's ridiculous geeez... ask how many if they could afford move to e better barrio huh!

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 05:33:

My dad was guy A when he went to Colombia. It was hilarious. He spoke to everybody in English v e r y S l o w l y whether they understood any english or not.

The funny thing was he managed to get on really well with 2 of the older colombian guys who did not speak any english and they would speak to him in spanish. We left them talking for hours about god knows what but all 3 went away saying how great the other was.

GIB you forgot to put the text in capitals because he is also shouting at the top of his voice!!!!

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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morphus says on Dec 21, 2007, 05:34:

LOL

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john_stark says on Dec 21, 2007, 06:38:

"John_Stark, why would you hate to see it in Colombia? Do you plan to go back? It sounds like you are happy where you are."

I might go back but right now I am thinking more about Chile, Argentina and Uruguay. My wife still has the apartment in Medellin so you never know.

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morphus says on Dec 21, 2007, 07:00:

Then you will have to give up your gun collection...LOL

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Albatross says on Dec 21, 2007, 07:08:

"Guy A is still standing at McDonalds. I said, I wanted a Big Mac and French Fries with a Coke!"... LOL

That's funny but I gotta admit, upon returning to Bangkok after two weeks in Cambodia, the very first thing I did was to go to McDonalds... for a Big Mac, French Fries and a Coke.

“Democracy - a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." - H.L. Mencken

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Omnispire says on Dec 21, 2007, 07:18:

I think we can get a new thread out of this e.g.

Guy A goes to a Salsa night club and when the music starts to play starts line dancing out of time to the music!! jajajaja

What do you reckon? has it got any legs?

It's not about the destination, its about the journey

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kalder says on Dec 21, 2007, 09:04:

Interesting discussion.

Personally, I wouldn't call either of them pathetic. I know this sounds pious, but I've got no trouble with how people live their lives, as long as they're not hurting anyone else.

"kalder- have you ever had a woman?"--Sam Salmon

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Lowell says on Dec 21, 2007, 10:27:

Live and let live. Really simple.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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wendell13 says on Dec 21, 2007, 10:54:

All you type B wannabes are just like regular folk here in Colombia....The regular folk here spend all their time with meaningless drivel on internet boards.

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Rio_Sul says on Dec 22, 2007, 10:46:

I have been to many countries, from Russia to Brasil. I love different cultures. I learned a little Portuguese, Russian and Sapnish along the way. I think everyones experience is different. Everyone has different reasons to travel or move (to another country). I like Brasil and Colombia very much. I want to retire soon, buy a small business and live the relaxed lifestyle of a latin country. I have stayed in the fervelas of Rio, stayed in tiny pueblo's in Colombia (where the only people with guns are the narco-trafficers, no police), slept on a park bench at 0400 A.M. an hour north of Rio, fled for my life from "robbers" blocking a freeway, going car to car with guns in Barra da Tijuca, walking late at night in "bad" areas, etc. I enjoy people, life and adventure. If someone wants to "stay in safe places", they should. If they want to walk in dangerous areas, the go for it. I am careful but most times I am not afraid. Many people told me how dangerous "Centro" is to walk in. I have walked, day and night. No problems. I have more friends in Colombia than Michigan. I want to live life in the "play" mode, not the "fast forward" mode of America. Colombia is a diverse country with beaches, sand, surf, snow covered area, jungle, valleys, mountains and almost every other terrain. If you are American, you can visit or live almost anywhere you like. You can also live how you like (within the law). I encourage everyone to live where YOU want, live HOW you want, and be with the people YOU want to be with. I can fit in almost anywhere without any problems. I was almost run over in Moscow by a diplomats car...jeje so there are SOME exceptions. I wish everyone a Merry Christmas and a happy New Year!

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tomtom33 says on Dec 22, 2007, 11:12:

It is possible to live life the way you want to live life wherever you happen to live. It is not necessary to live in another country because you think that life is a certain way in that country.

Buy a small business and relax in Colombia? Not very likely. Just plain trying to live here can be one helluva hassle. Any business activity will do nothing more than add to that hassle.

Buen suerte.

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Lowell says on Dec 22, 2007, 11:44:

I agree, Just plain living seems to be a big struggle in itself. There's no reason for it either. That's the very iritating thing about it.

Alfred E. Newman. "What. Me Worry?"

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 22, 2007, 16:35:

A gringo is a gringo and will always be a gringo...spanish speaker or not. He can learn all he wants about the culture, language all that bullshit...it doesn't make any difference.......to the locals we are either poor, rich and always....stupid.....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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Gator says on Dec 22, 2007, 17:01:

Which papaya truck brought you here? That is simply not true. In that case you likely fit Forrest Gump's statement, "Stupid is as stupid does."

"Credidi pretio parvo emere et magno vendere tibi in animo fuisse!" .

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 23, 2007, 08:13:

It is the same way in almost all Third World countries around the world.....as a gringo you will never really become a part of the culture or society.....except for the papaya.....and to think otherwise is simply being naive and or blind....

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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aztec says on Dec 23, 2007, 08:27:

Chelesupercono, by extension of your argument may we assume a person born in Colombia can never become an American(USA)?

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 23, 2007, 11:37:

The USA is in many ways like no other country when it comes to accepting people from other countries; not perfect by any means but maybe the best example thus far. There are many reasons for that but in general I would say because the playing field is far more level there than other countries. One example, although small, is the fact that there is only one price for something and that price is the same for all colors and types of people. This is almost never the case anywhere in the Third World....period. I do not believe that most Americans think that foreigners are stupid and owe them something.....almost always the case in the Third World.....period. One could go on forever about this subject and really I am making a sweeping generalization but after living in the Third World for 30 years I have seen all kinds of situations and that is my conclusion.......

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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Cerealkiller says on Dec 23, 2007, 12:25:

It depends on the gringo...If guy A orbits around a corporate crowd, has never been to a poor neighborhood in the US, doesn't like beer and enjoys buying brand name stuff then all is good, why would he be pathetic? Guy A is certainly not the only one who leads such lifestyle, plenty of people in Colombia do...and they are Colombian. If Guy B is used to barrio life, knowing neighbours, drinking beers and enjoying more simple pleasures then kudos to him...I don't get the whole "estrato 6 stuck up, spoiled sobs"...seriously, if anything it only shows the foreigners superiority complex "oh these poor rich colombians, they think they're the shit, but if they were in the US they'd be an average Joe/ I hate rich people in Colombia/ I would never move to estrato 6 even if i had all the money in the world"... now THAT is pathetic...just live where you feel more comfortable. Live and let live for goodness sake!!!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Leeroy says on Dec 23, 2007, 13:05:

This thread has been interesting and educational.

Isn't it about time we started talking about whores now though?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Dec 23, 2007, 13:13:

no

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Chelesupercono says on Dec 24, 2007, 06:25:

Hey I am a Gringo from A to Z......now about those whores.........

never go to bed with someone crazier then you are, you will do it and you will regret it.......

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