Novita in the Choco region

LilaM says on Sep 17, 2008, 21:11:

Check this site http://www.novita-choco.gov.co/sitio.shtml?apc=m1T1--&m=f#vias

"You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don´t try" B. Sills

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LilaM says on Sep 17, 2008, 21:12:

Vías de comunicación
Aéreas:
Si usted desea viajar en avion puede utilizar el servicio de aeropuerto solamente se tiene que desplazar de la cabecera municipal al municipio de Condoto al aeropuerto de Mandinga el cual demora a unos 60 minutos en bus.

Terrestres:
Al municipio de Novita se llega en transporte urbano intermunicipal se encuentra a 4 horas de la capital del Choco Quibdo las empresas que llegan al municipio son Expreso el Pacifico y la flota Arauca.

Fluviales:
Al municipio de Novita se llega en lancha desde la población del medio San juan que demora unas dos horas y media y de Istmina a dos horas y cuarenta y cinco minutos.

"You may be disappointed if you fail, but you are doomed if you don´t try" B. Sills

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 17, 2008, 21:26:

"Are there mostly Afro-Colombianos there?"

Yes. They are usually called blacks in Colombia, except by some people who like to imitate the PC speech patterns of anglo-speaking world.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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el flaco says on Sep 18, 2008, 03:42:

I thought it was a no go area security wise. Also full of mosquitos and malaria. Sooner you than me.

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august says on Sep 18, 2008, 20:41:

Desideria, that's a pretty bold statement there claiming that even Afro-Colombians who self-identify as Afro-Colombians are merely imitating (US) Americans, for example. It just seems that you are trying to correct how the poster referred to Colombians of African descent as Afro-Colombians and I don't see how that's necessary.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 18, 2008, 21:01:

I'm sorry if that's how you interpreted my comment, which was meant as just a clarification of terminology. While the term "African-Colombian" has started to show in public media the great majority of the black people refer to themselves simply as blacks, which is politically correct in Colombia. Yes, I consider "Afro-Colombian" a borrowed term.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 18, 2008, 21:20:

Desideria, you make it sound like it's only liberal white Colombians who use the term "Afro-Colombian" to refer to Colombians of African descent. I just think you should maybe leave it to Colombians of African descent to define themselves. I'm not sure how much exposure you've had to contemporary Afro-Colombian political discourse, but people have decided it's time for Colombia to recognize that all those dark skinned Colombians didn't come from Spain. Yes, the labels "negro" or "communidad negra" are very common in Colombia, I agree, but despite your cynicism, it seems to be that people within those communities are genuinely interested in redefining themselves and currently seeking ways of doing so, including using self-references which honor those roots.

Iberian culture in the Americas seems to place more value on ignoring societal discomforts (especially fractures) than Anglo culture in the Americas, I am willing to buy that, and thus empowerment through consciousness of self was a process which seems to have begun much earlier in the US among African-(US)Americans for example, but I don't see how that makes the efforts of Afro-Colombians to explore their own identities any less genuine.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 18, 2008, 21:46:

I don't think I was being cynical, just matter of fact.
BTW, I believe I've posted lots of material regarding black communities, especially those on the Pacific coast of Colombia. But I have to rush now, I'd like to get back with you on this topic later.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 18, 2008, 22:25:

Fact, huh?

I will leave you with the wise words of a man named Bob:

Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 03:01:

Whatever.

Since you feel that much superior I guess there's nothing more to discuss. I will just leave you with a though: "No entiendo porque se nos dice *gente de color*. No somos rosados, ni cafecitos, ni amarillos ni verdes...somos negros". (This is how the blacks of Colombia identify themselves).

I just feel that there is no need to borrow trouble. The people of Colombia are of mixed heritage and the need is to look ahead, not behind or linger on past injustices.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 19, 2008, 06:28:

Desideria, I'm not claiming superiority here, I'm claiming that perhaps you're not aware of the fact that not all Colombians of African descent are thinking in the way you describe. Somehow you seem very resistant to that idea though.

Overlooking past injustices and claiming that Colombians simply have outbred their social fractures simply seems unhelpful in terms of taking action to address the - yes - lingering problems of the past. Your line of thinking seems fairly parallel to those in the US who, as in Colombia, will latch onto the fact that slavery officially ended a quarter and a half centuries ago, while at the same time ignoring that current poverty statistics have a clearly race-based trend to them (ie. In Colombia, as in the US, the more African heritage one has, the more likely they are to be in poverty). Does that mean nothing? How can Colombia (or the US for that matter) move forward, together as a nation, if everyone is starting the march forward from different points? These are American (in the continental sense) questions, not simply US or Colombian in my opinion.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 08:18:

"How can Colombia (or the US for that matter) move forward, together as a nation, if everyone is starting the march forward from different points?"

Everybody always starts from differents points or different levels.

(How can a nation pull itself up from poverty from being one of the poorest countries of Europe, devastated by war, indebted deeply, cold, starving, with one fifth of its entire population as refugees to re-settle become one of the most successful nations in Europe, a beacon of democracy, well-being, competiviness, transparency and education in less than half a century? BY NOT LOOKING BACK.)

While I believe there are some black activists in Colombia who have embraced the US PC terminology (and I'm pretty sure you're committed there) the great majority of the descendants of the former slaves in Colombia call themselves just "negros".

It's not an American issue (continentally, assuming America one continent), it's a cultural issue pertaining to two totally different cultures; those of North American or AngloSaxon and Spanish American or Latin American cultures.

Colombian blacks (the ones I'm familiar with, from the Pacific Coast) have always identified themselves as Colombians in the first, second and third place. Not as African-Colombian, just Colombian. Perhaps it will change and has already started changing (I think it is a pity) since there's no gain in wallowing in the sins of our fathers and even if there's covert discrimination tied up with classism in Colombia there's also a possibilty for progress through education and hard work.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 19, 2008, 09:05:

Which European country are you talking about? Germany? In that case, I'd say the US$13 billion sent as as a gift from the US taxpayers between 1948 and 1951 had something to do with it, probably a little more than any efforts to "not look back" at German identity as you suggest.

This inability on your part to see the history of Americas as a dynamic interrelated phenomenon is interesting though. What does "culture" mean to you when you say reconciling history is a "cultural issue"? Perhaps that is our misunderstanding. To me "culture" cannot be separated from history. As someone who was born into the mess and masterpiece of the Americas, it has always been impossible for me to draw distinctions between what has happened over the last 500 years anywhere between Alaska and Cape Horn. Yes there have been different European languages spoken, but the events were the same. First, destruction of indigenous populations. Next, Africans were unwillfully brought to Spanish and Portuguese speaking colonies by people speaking mostly Portuguese, but also English, to French speaking colonies by people speaking mostly French, but also English and to English speaking colonies by people speaking mostly English. The Danish trafficked Africans for colonists speaking all 4 languages and of course language - and "culture" as you say - got complicated when one colonial power would invade the land of another, mixing up languages and people (free and non-free) of those who were there previously with those who had invaded (see: Jamaica and in the US, Florida and Louisiana). From there, it has all been similar throughout the Americas because it has always been interrelated. Desideria, I know you have had some exposure to the Americas, but I think when you can start to see this, when you do really read about our history, you will finally have truly crossed the Atlantic. It's a wild mess we live in on this side. I am actually from California. A snapshot of that place alone will shatter your artificially drawn lines of "culture." We don't have the pleasure of being able to draw the distinctions Europeans seem to embrace on their side of the Atlantic.

To acknowledge your final point, recognizing history need not be considering "wallowing." I see it as being responsible and seeking accuracy. You say the keys to progress are "education and hard work," but what are we to be learning exactly and on what are we to be working? Seems to me it would be helpful, for example, to recognize (learn?) that discrimination does exist in Colombia (which would involve acknowledging that specific groups are the subject of discrimination which involves identifying these groups) so that laws could be passed and enforced to prevent employment discrimination so that Afro-Colombians actually could have the opportunity to work hard.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 09:46:

I'm talking about my home country, Finland. No, we received nothing, we had to pay war debt instead, for being attacked and having to defend ourselves against YOUR ally, the Russkies.
(Finland was THE ONLY COUNTRY that paid in FULL it's war debts to the allies)
Here's a little list of what our non-existent industry had to accomplish to send to the Mighty Bear across the border in a short time:
Here is a partial list of manufactured goods (US$300,000,000 - actual value was close to US$570,000,0000 - discrepancy due to pricing basis used) sent to the Soviet Union:
ITEM
Narrow gauge locomotives by Tampella and Locomo
300 ton schooners with 225 hp diesels by Valmet -
800 hp deep sea trollers -
3200 ton freighters -
2000 ton steel barges or tankers -
1000 ton barges -
150 hp river tug boats -
Tampella TS 7 metal lathes -
Paper machinery -
Cardboard machines -
Miscellaneous industrial electric motors -
Modular houses (USD) -
Lumber handling vehicles -
Wire Cable (Tons) -
Miscellaneous e.g.. Cranes by Kone oy
The rich and beautiful province of Karelia
The Karelian Culture QUANTITY
589
91
10
9
25
200
50
220
4
5
27 431
7 000 000
200
21 087

That's just an example how people or nations that start at a very disadvantaged position can pull themselves out of poverty. By not looking back. Thanks to that post-war effort, our industry was invigorated and the benefits were soon to be noticed.

I've had a lot of exposure to Colombia and I'm not young any longer; it's a lifetime of exposure with 12 years of continuous residence in Cali plus a dozen shorter stays from 2 weeks to four months, I still have a home in Cali.

In the New World two parallell cultures developed, starting att the same time (even though Spaniards were there first), both originated in Europe but in two nations that had little in common except their ambition and dreams of power and riches. (I have read Latin American history at a college in USA too and really, there is no better textbook on Latin American history than Galeanos "The Open Veins of Latin America", it should be REQUIRED READING for anybody who wanted to live in Latin America).

I KNOW about the slave trade, everybody does. I also know that Africans were fighting each others all the time at that time (and ever after that) and selling their prisoners to slavery either to other tribes or to Arabs (their part in the slave trade can never be ignored). That Europeans discovered the already existing slave trade and profited from it was not something inherently evil; at that point of history it was the norm. (Like in biblical times slavery was a norm too, that's why there's no prohibition against slavery in the Bible, just rules about how to handle different situations regarding slaves).

I'm pretty sure there are already existing laws in Colombia that prohibit racial discrimination, but ....this is Colombia where few laws are strictly enforced, and those of employment are the hardest ones with the rate of unemployment and under-employment that rule the offer and the demand. Thus, you don't get a job if you're over 35, ugly, fat, black, indio, don't have a primo or a cousin in a high position, female, male, short, tall, live in a wrong barrio, didn't go to right school, don't know right people.

There are a LOT of problems in Colombia and social injustice is perhaps one of the very root problems, but racism is NOT one of them.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 19, 2008, 10:02:

Right, Finland is uni-racial. That right there made its job of unifying behind a collective action much easier. Therefore, I don't see how Finland's history is comparable that of any in the Americas. Do you know why in the US the majority of the population (of which the majority is of European descent) is uninterested today in a Scandinavian-style (or FDR-style, for that matter) welfare state which would even the playing field for everyone? Because the popular perception of the poor is that they are African-American. You don't have that issue in Finland.

You say:
"Thus, [In Colombia] you don't get a job if you're over 35, ugly, fat, black, indio, don't have a primo or a cousin in a high position, female, male, short, tall, live in a wrong barrio, didn't go toright school, don't know right people."

Uh, Desideria, that IS racism. I'm glad we agree that that is one problem which Colombia must contend with if it wants to progress.

We're straying from the point of our discussion though (which, apologies to the poster, has strayed very far from her post). Part of confronting rascism is understanding the process of racialization. A key element to doing that is looking back and recognizing a society's history. That is where the importance of the use of Afro-Colombian over negro is important.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 10:07:

To me that is NOT racism. That's classism, elitism, market economy, unbridled jungle-law capitalism mixed with ignorance and corruption. Race is just one more ingredient in the big picture.

My apologies to the OP too. I find these issues quite interesting and get carried away easily.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 19, 2008, 10:09:

"Race is just one more ingredient in the big picture."

YES! Exactly!

If turning someone down for a job because they are Afro-Colombian wherein the employer thinks the applicant's race automatically means they are less qualified is not racism, I don't know what is in your mind. But, the big picture will only change with changes in each of its elements.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 10:25:

It's jungle-law capitalism: the person hiring a new employee has got instructions from the management to select people who are "representative" (meaning right age, looks and manners) of the image the company wishes to portray or to which social groups it caters. There may or may not be a racist element in it ( too often there is, but not necessarily; discrimination by age, sex or social class is just as grievous to me)

Oh, I'm sure I have already told this, but I must've been in my senior yearin high school when I forst saw a live black person...I think he was part of a traveling troupee of artists or performers or part of a traveling circus. I had seen black people on TV before, of course, but never live. Thus, no prejudice.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 19, 2008, 11:53:

Right, everything you have described are ways in which people are racialized. It's a socialization process whereby the color of ones skin plays a role.

And I was thinking back to the root of our sub-discussion, where you claim that "Afro-Colombian" is a borrowed term and thus somehow illegitimate. Well, if you think back in history, the Portuguese were the first ones to begin bringing Africans to the Americas. They were really probably the first ones therefore to begin referring to Africans as black in the Americas. So we could say that "negro" its use in the Americas in Spanish is really just a borrowed term from Portuguese.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 19, 2008, 12:57:

Yes, I know it's the word the Portuguese used and it's the same word in Spanish which is just descriptive. The descriptive tradition was carried on a long time in the official apparatus like the governación that issued passports. The clerk would just look at the person and write down what he/she saw. Thus, my blonde, blue-eyed, Scandinavian white babies were classified as "trigueño" in their passports....I guess they were a little tanned because we had a swimming pool at home. That's fine, I have no problem with things like that. I was described as "blanca rosada" in my Colombian cedula de extranjería...I thought it was funny...I tend to get flushed when I have do business with obnoxious bureaucrats.

The point I'm trying to make is that "negro" is just descriptive in Spanish, it's not loaded with a lot of hidden meanings.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Philly says on Sep 19, 2008, 17:00:

I know I am late to get invloved in this discussion, but I find it very interesting. Des, I lived in Manizales a couple of years back. There were several University students from the Choco region. I am a very proud African American, so I made it a point to get to know these people. They invited to a party at their University. The party was actually held in front of their dorm rooms. My new found friends invited me to their rooms. To my astonishment, they had posters of Dr. King and Malcolm X. I felt so at home, I almost started to cry. These men knew all about the history of these great men. They then proceeded to tell me how the black leaders that Colombia once had were also killed just like Dr. King and Malcolm X. I could not believe how similiar Colombia´s history is very similiar to the US. These young and very intelligent men also referred to themselves as "Afro-Colombians". I was soooooooo proud becuase I personally believe the word "negro" is so derogoratory. These guys are on the path to making a difference. So, the point of my story is to inform you, young educated Afro-Colombians from the Choco region are well aware that the word "negro" can not longer be excepted or tolerated.

Ps. Why hasn´t the post about "Niggaz Jeans been deleted? Do I really need to explain why? THOSE ARE YOUR RULES BELOW, NO?

Your comment: (remember the rules)


No sexist, racist or obscene language.
No personal attacks.
Stay on topic.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 20, 2008, 16:49:

Philly,
that thread is about if it's ok or not to use "those words" in ads. As far as I have understood the n-word is ok when used by a black person excuse me African-something but not by others.
Is it ok to say that I 'm proud white person who does not really give damn about the colour of anybody's face?

I'm well aware that there are Colombian blacks, especially in the younger generation, the Uni crowd etc. that have taken up the Gringo terminology "African-Colombian" and the word has been used more often in the Press, but in Colombia it's still mainly NEGRO, like it or not. I don't find it derogatory at all. I don't find "white" derogatory either, or "pink" or "yellow". It's a liittle bit like the word "gringo", To your face you're called "estadounidense", that's the PC term. Behind your back you're called gringo, but more often than not without heat, without malice, just as shorthand for "estadounidense". "African_Colombian" sounds borrowed, like a fad, not really Colombian, but to your face yes, that's what you want to hear.
Perhaps in 50 years or so, it'll be the most common term, to describe people of African descendence, but it's not it yet.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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august says on Sep 20, 2008, 17:22:

Desideria: tellin it how it is. You still don't get it. First of all, it's unsurprising for you to claim that you don't care about skin color - most light skinned people will say the same thing. But you know what? You have the most socially-constructed powerful skin tone in the world! Why should you care? You don't need to! Second of all, in my opinion, it's not your role to say what other people should be calling themselves. These are all very un-nuanced understandings you display of power relations in the Americas. I'm afraid that despite having read about Latin America and even having 12 years of first-hand exposure to the Americas, you still have not got a good hold on the situation. It might not be too late though. I recommend that you begin listening and observing - keenly - when you are in the Americas and telling and talking less, then reflect. I don't like to shut down a dialog, but there is no progress being made here and, honestly, you are treading the border of being offensive. Please, again, from Bob:

Your old road is
Rapidly agin'.
Please get out of the new one
If you can't lend your hand
For the times they are a-changin'.

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manINred says on Sep 20, 2008, 23:24:

In Colombia, it is just a matter of fact that the vast majority of Colombians refer to blacks as 'negro/a' or 'negrito/a'. The majority of blacks also refers to themselves as such. It is interesting that the mestizos don't identify themselves as "mestizo". But then again, the race definition has become greatly watered down since the 1800s and early 1900s.

It is fair to say that there comes with the term 'negro' a certain prejudice. Be it a stereotype or whatever, but generally the stereotype of a black person in Colombia is not positive. Black people in Colombia are discriminated against more than any other race, and that is fact. This is true in most latin american countries as well. Anyone who claims otherwise is wrong and/or misguided.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 21, 2008, 03:54:

Stop quoting old Bob to me. I familiar with his production and line of thinking; after reading the autobiography I came to realize that there was almost no true conviction of anything there except of how to make money and NOT be responsible for the things people believed he stood for. I still listen to him, though, just because the songs are good.

I'm not even talking about racism; that would be another discussion and another thread. About offensive (borderline): I find your position borderline offensive in its arrogance and condescension. (And it's not 12 years of exposure of the Americas; it's17 years altogether if you count my time in USA; just makes me dumber for not having grasped it after all that time)

I'm talking about the evolution of the society on Colombia: they do not need to borrow trouble as it is rather complicated right now. Don't kid yourself: the blacks of Colombia know the shape and size of the beast they have to fight against and Malcolm X posters on the campus are going to make any difference. (Back in the seventies there were a bunch a gringos who went to the Amazonia representing something called Insituto Linguistico de Verano; in fact they were evangelizing native tribes because they felt they had so much to teach these poor savages. I laughed when they got their asses kicked out.

I just don't like that blatant cultural interference some activists from USA and Europe feel that they are obligated to conduct in third world countries. And no, the US and Colombia have NEVER had similar economicsal and cultural developments.And yes, the PREMISES were the same but how it then took off and developed was a totally different story. A drop of African blood in a mestizo does not make him or her black in Colombia...that's why the percentage of African descendents in Colombia is reported so low in the statistics. It's just because the society as a whole are not as gung-ho about races at all.

But no, you're right. This exchange is not going to conduct to any understanding from either side.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Philly says on Sep 21, 2008, 04:16:

I am done, August made a very good point, YOU JUST DON´T GET IT!!!!!. and you probably will never get it. We only ask that you open your eyes and see what is going on. When we walk by just get out of the way because we have something to gain, RESPECT!!!!!!

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 21, 2008, 04:42:

I was done first...but I just had to come back and ask you Philly WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? (respect) When you walk by? Am I supposed to drop a curtsy or what? Respect goes both ways. I have NEVER talked in a condescending way about the black people of Colombia.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Robert Jorge says on Sep 21, 2008, 11:36:

manINred, I disagree with blacks being the most discriminated against in Colombia. I think the most discriminated against might be people of obvious Indian heritage.

He who farts in church, sits in his own pew.

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kat1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Sep 21, 2008, 12:51:

http://www.eltiempo.com/media/produccion/choco/

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