Not good what I'm thinking of doing, but I think I will do it anyway. HELP!

Sylvie says on Jul 29, 2005, 22:38:

If your kids were born in the US and are US citizens I assure you that you will get caught because I've seen it happen. I'm not a lawyer but I suggest that if you file for divorce you deal with the kids in a legal way in court. You can get full custody of your children if the courts deam your husband as a "bad parent." That would grant him visitation rights and then they could live where you want to live.

If you get joint custody with your husband then you'll have to bring him to court in order to allow you to bring your US citizen kids back to Colombia with you.

I seriously don't suggest that you just take them with you without telling your husband or else you could get into BIG trouble.

My friend decided to take his US born daughter back to Greece with him. His wife reported him he got caught and he's now doing 20 months for kidnapping. It can get really serious. Plus you wouldn't want your kids to be scared, right? When my friends wife reported him the US embassy in Greece he was contacted. He refused to bring his daughter back and so the US embassy went all out in attack mode to retrieve his daughter from him. I'm talking about "swat team" attack mode. Would you really want your kids to be terrified like that?

My friend even ended up on TV potrayed like a crimminal.

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Adrianagon1018 says on Jul 29, 2005, 23:01:

Sylvie thanks for your advice, after all these years here, I know all about these concequences, I guess I am just tired of everything and want an easy way out, I don't want to nor do I think I will have the strenght to deal with a divorce and all the long emotional drama that comes with it, but I guess it's better than being put in jail and losing my kids. Thanks again !

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 29, 2005, 23:03:

I agree with Sylvie The best thing to do is to settle it the right way. Get a divorce and try to do it amicably so that your children don't suffer and they can see both their mother and their father. No child wants to end up not being able to see their father again, unless he's a real idiot... So settle it with your lawyer or with your husband ( if you are in good terms) and try to make the best of it for the children.

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Sylvie says on Jul 29, 2005, 23:08:

Yes, see what your husband says. Maybe he'll agree to let you take the kids and have them visit him during the summer while they're out of school.

I've seen quite a few parents make reasonable agreements where both parties were happy and living in different countries.

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viewpoint says on Jul 30, 2005, 03:59:

Adriana Were you married in the USA or Colombia ?

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shirly1981 says on Jul 30, 2005, 05:50:

better to talk about the problem I agree with people here, you must get the divorse first, for sure if you are a good mother and you have good reasons to finish with that relationship you will have your kids with you. But dont make that mistake if you dont want you your kids stay with their dad and you in jail.

Sophia

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lpdiver says on Jul 30, 2005, 06:09:

Adriana, have you... Considered getting counciling? You don't relate as to the reason for your unhappiness and I am NOT asking. Maybe you can resolve your issues. If not... ending your relationship in the matter you suggest is only likely to make you more miserable.

A

"cook some rice!"

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Crazy4Cali says on Jul 30, 2005, 06:46:

At the very least get some counseling, legal and/or psychological.

If you're at this point (i.e. the end of your rope) then there are no easy ways out, in spite of how exhausted by the situation you might feel. There are good, bad, and real ugly ways out, but they will all cost you something. If you're lucky you'll just be out some time and money. If not, you could lose all that and a lot more.

Consequently, my advice would be to get some professional advice because it sounds like you're exhausted and not thinking completely straight. I can sympathize with the situation you describe but bailing on it will pretty much guarantee big trouble.

Take it slowly and carefully and I wish you the best in working things out.

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 30, 2005, 07:24:

Bad Idea, but you already know that. Look, you know the right thing to do and that the "easy way out" won't wind up that way. What's the saying in Spanish "lo barato sale caro." If you make this move it'll be the most costly thing you ever do.

Consider another angle, too. I have a friend whose mother did exactly what you're proposing to do. She took her young daughter to Denmark and didn't return to the USA for 12 years. My friend really resented her mother because she really wanted to have a life with her father, despite whatever bullshit had gone on between her parents as a couple. When she was old enough to go back to the USA on her own, she did, and broke off contact with her mother for many years. I don't imagine this is your desired outcome either.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2005, 08:44:

there has been at least two or three similar cases in Finland in the last few years, a Finnish mother returning to her home country with the childre, without the consent of their gringo father. Both cases very dramatic and confusing for the poor kids. In the latest case the kids ended up back in the US, after released from the Children's Hospital for Psychiatry and were kidnapped by their father wearing a fake mustache and sunglasses.

I would try to reason with the father. Get him to agree that I needed to return to my own country for my own sake, for my emotional and mental health and take a breather from this marriage and think things over. I would try to make him understand that I needed to take the children with me, that I would take good care of them and have them study in good schools and that he would be welcome to come and visit his children any time. I don't know how infected the situation is between you and your husband, but if there's still a dialogue going on I would try to get his co-operation for this. If you decided to stay in Colombia the children could later choose if they wanted to live with their father or with you. I believe that you can wait before starting a divorce procedure and child custody battles; you need to take care of yourself first because you sound pretty tired and desperate even to consider kidnapping your children and risking to lose them definitely in the oncoming custody suit. If the dialogue is still an option, use it.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Adrianagon1018 says on Jul 30, 2005, 10:02:

thanks everyone I got married here in USA in 1993, the reason our marriage is not working is because my husband has been unfaithfull a couple of times ( that I know )I can't say he is a bad parent or a bad person, besides his affairs he might be a bad husband, of course we have had counseling, it worked while we were having it, but is all back to the same thing, I am constantly depressed and feel alone, I have forgiven him for what he did, but I can't forget about it, the trust is just not there anymore, due to my depression I don't want to deal with a divorce right now, like I said before I don't think I have the strenght to do it, but is best than losing my kids. I am going to Colombia this Christmas, will comeback and get it over with ! Thanks everyone for your posts !

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 10:26:

Adrianagon Maybe, and forgive me if I'm being intrusive in any way, you should deal with your depression while you're in Colombia. The important thing is that you're feeling better about yourself and your family. It is very normal to feel depressed at any point in life, the important thing is to be able to acknoledge what is going on and to try to make yourself better. I know it's not as easy as it sounds... but I reccomend you don't take any anti-depressives ( like all americans do) for that just covers it up, it soesn't solve it. Most of depressions are linked directly to the body ( more than , the mind or the soul) so check out the way you're eating and exercising. get off meat and dairy for a while ( even if you dont plan on being a vegetarian) just as a detox system. Eat foods that are high on Potassium ( like bananas, avocados or potatoes whith skin), drink a lot of fruit extracts and try to avoid refined sugars and fried stuff. It might be hard, but it really works and you will be amazed at how goos your body feels and how clear your mind becomes.
eating habits in the states are really damaging to the body, which is direcltly linked to your mental state.
I hope you give this a try and you will be able to see your problems in a different way.

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 30, 2005, 11:17:

utopiacowboy says on Jul 30, 2005, 11:18:

All Americans take ant-depres All Americans take anti-depressants? Now there's a generalization if I ever heard one. I don't take them and I don't know anyone who does. You've got to stop hanging out with those northern Yankees - they're downers, man.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 11:32:

ok, so I generalized... But the statistics are higher In America. I just worry about my young students being over medicated.

And true, all bodies are differnt, but all living cells use a balance beteen sodium and potassium. A healthy cell has K inside and Na sorrounding it. An unhealthy cell has Na inside and K outside. Eating potassium rich foods and diminishing others can help restore this balance.

of course, "to each, his own" and "live and let live"

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utopiacowboy says on Jul 30, 2005, 11:49:

Buena suerte with influencing the Yanks into changing their habits. Their solution for everything is to pop a pill. They are a very impatient group of people which I think is part of their problem.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Gomezman5 says on Jul 30, 2005, 12:38:

Sylvie......your part right but also wrong Court in most state, WILL NOT just "let you live where you want" after a divroce. What you said is kind of comical. You mention how the father will have visitation rights, but then you mention how the woman can live where she wants. Does that make sense? What good are visitation rights if I live in Chicago, and my ex wife lives in Los Angeles or Miami. Do you call that visitation rights? Courts are fairly adamant that absent a compelling reason to the contrary, the woman/mother MUST stay within a the jurisdiction or close enough to it, to allow for the continued father/child relationship to move forward by means of allowing for regular visits between the child/children and the father. I suppose you expeect the man to pay child support too while not being able to see his children on a regular basis. You probably do. I used to see women pull these shots all the time.

It amazing the nonsense I read on here

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 12:45:

The other forum dissapeared Can anyone tell me why this happened? I'm new here so i don't know why the thread about anti-depressants dissapeard.....

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:01:

Anti depressants are over the counter in Colombia, so it's a good thing only people in the US use them.

Many people have found that anti-depressants help them process and move through their depression, not simply mask it.

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:03:

Whatever... I just learned I can't talk about it But maybe you will..since you said antidrepessant and colombia in the same sentence. I'm done with this subject.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:10:

however, and here I'd like to hear from people in Colombia about the extend of the use of antidepressants and ritalin and similars to control ADHD/ADD school kids in Colombia. As far as I know, they are NOT over the counter drugs in Colombia either, unless this has been changed recently. It's a very old discussion and opinions have always been divided pro and con medication for hyperactivity and attention deficit/ concentration problems.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Adrianagon1018 says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:11:

no I don't like nor do I want to take antidepressants, teh fact is that after 13 years in gringolandia, I feel alone, I have no family here, I have always miss my country, my family even the food...but since I learned that my "perfect gringo" was not so perfect and cheated on me, with NO reason, I feel even worst...thanks to everyone here for your input, it really helps to share you load and listen to different points of view, I now have more to think about, and do it the right way, no matter what the cost...

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Sylvie says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:16:

Gomezman5 Chill man. :-P

I'm following Canadian law which I dont htink is much different from state laws from what I've witnessed. If a Canadian parent has full custody of a child they are allowed to live anywhere in the free world. By definition in Canada, Child Custody is the legal authority to make decisions affecting a child's interests (legal custody) and the responsibility of taking care of the child (physical custody).
When you have full custody in Canada you have what they call a "Guardianship package" which means that you can do anything you want as long as the court deams it acceptable for the childs well being. This only applies for children that are minors (under 18 or 17 depending on province).

If the person who is granted visitation rights can not afford to get himself or herself to the children then its tough poop for them according to Canadian law. In the states it is up to the judge to decide and the laws concerning the matter are in a constant state of flux, and the rules seem to change frequently. If you were deamed a shitty enough parent to not get full custody then they typically don't give you the right from keeping your ex from moving with the children.
In canada it is more concrete once you're granted full custody you can do what you please because they are your children and they do not deam the other parent responsible for anything regarding the childrens best interest. It is the obligation to the parent who has full custody to take care of the children and if they need to live somewhere else for work/family/or medical purposes I believe that according to the court it is their right to do so.




Now as for your comment:
"I suppose you expeect the man to pay child support too while not being able to see his children on a regular basis. You probably do. I used to see women pull these shots all the time. "

I respected your arguement up until you made that assumption. How do you figure that I expect men to pay child support while not able to see their children? That wasn't even on topic and it makes you sound like a bitter guy who has been screwed over by a few ex-wives or something.....Remember that an assumption is the mother of all screw ups :-P

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Mr. Hollywood says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:25:

G5 is right Sylvie, he's right about the moving thing. See, they can't stop your individual right to live where you want, which stops at the end of your skin. Taking a child with you involves another person, and if it violates the terms of a custody agreement, that's a crime.

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Sylvie says on Jul 30, 2005, 13:36:

I read the legal documents for the state of Pennsylvania and when the custody agrement grants full custody to one parent then they have the rights over the kids. Same thing in Quebec and Ontario.

Now if the custody agreement states that you have joint custody then I'm pretty sure that you cant leave with your kids. Remember that there is a difference between full custody and joint custody.

I suppose it depends on he agreement made at the court hearings where a judge is present. I'm still pretty sure that once you have full custody regardless if there are visitation rights you cant take your kids with you.

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Sylvie says on Jul 30, 2005, 14:00:

Gomezman5 and Mr. Hollywood Since you're both lawyers (atleast I assume you are) and know about this stuff what would happen if Mother had full custody, father had visitation rights but decided to move to California for a better job while mother and child stayed in New York.

what happens then? Does the mother have the obligation to move to California in order to have the father put to use his visitation rights?

It doesn't make much sense to me because the way you guys put it the parent who has full custody is obligated to be near the parent with visitation rights.... In the end, in canada, one parents is given more rights and that one parent is always the one who has full custody. I think its because in order to not be granted any custody of your children in Canada you have to be a REALLY shitty parent (crimminals, druggies and abusers) and usually (unfortunately and fortunately) these parents are never given any rights.

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 14:03:

that's why The best thing to do is to solve everything in the most amicable way with the childrens' father...Try to reach some kind of agreement that work outs for everybody. It's also important to talk to the children and see what their opinion on everything is. It's their life too, so they better get a chance to say what they think. I agree with what Desi said.

Good Luck adrianagon!!! Things will work out for the best. Take good care of yourself, maybe somebody close will be able to help you with your depression. I'm sorry my little forum dissappeared... I thought maybe somebody could have had some good advice...

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BAQ says on Jul 30, 2005, 17:18:

Here is the STATUTE I know just "A little" about this subject. HERE IS THE STATUTE

International Parental
Kidnapping Crime Act ("IPKCA" or "the Act"), 18 U.S.C. 
1204. The IPKCA bars a parent from removing a child from
the United States or retaining outside the United States
a child who has been in the United States, with the
intent to obstruct the other parent's right to physical
custody.

In short, UNTIL you have a COURT ORDER granting you FULL CUSTODY AND PERMISSION FROM THE COURT (WHICH YOU PROBABLY WON'T GET)to remove the children from the United States or it's Territories, you are violating Federal Law. With NO DIVORCE, BOTH PARENTS HAVE LEGAL "PHYSICAL CUSTODY".

I guarantee you would get a visit from Federal U.S Marshall's accompanied by DAS. You will be taken into Custody, extradited to the United States and convicted, sentenced to a MINIMUM of 24 months in Federal Prison and PROBABLY loose ALL PARENTAL RIGHTS when the divorce is final (since you will have been convicted of the above mentioned federal statute.

Don;t believe me? Try taking them out of the Country and see what happens.

BEST ADVICE, TALK TO A GOOD FAMILY LAW ATTORNEY BEFORE YOU DO ANYTHING !

Semper Fidelis !

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maleorange says on Jul 30, 2005, 18:53:

dont heal your relationship be mature

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chris666 says on Jul 30, 2005, 20:04:

I agree with Lucia eat bananas, avocados and whatever else she mentioned. I was on antidepressants before coming to South America. Once here my diet changed just because I was here -tons of fresh fruit juices etc...- and I didn´t feel the need for prescription medicine. Been off it for weeks and feel totally fine. Then again, maybe it´s because I´m out of gringolandia myself... I would also recommend meditation.

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utopiacowboy says on Jul 30, 2005, 21:10:

You're not from New York, are you Chris? Just kidding!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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utopiacowboy says on Jul 30, 2005, 21:15:

Wow, 13 years living here and you're still moping? It doesn't sound like you were someone who was cut out for leaving Colombia, so why did you ever leave? It's a shame you can't swap lives with my sister-in-law. She's trapped in Colombia because she has a child and the father won't consent to letting her leave with the child. Of course I don't really blame him for wanting to be a part of his kid's life. When you have kids, your life really stops being your own.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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BAQ says on Jul 30, 2005, 22:54:

Almost forgot, if you solicit/ask anyone to help you or IF anyone helps you in either removing the children from the United States or keeping them outside the United States, you can add a Federal charge of “Conspiracy”, so not only are you placing yourself at risk, but ANY family member or friend who helps you could/probably would be indicted.

As a side note, Federal Judges have historically been very harsh in sentencing for persons convicted of Parental Kidnapping, ESPECIALLY when a parent takes the child to a Country considered “Less than desirable”. In the “Federal system”, you don’t serve 3 for 1 on sentences, you get a MAXIMUM of 15 days good time per year.

Just some food for thought

Semper Fidelis !

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Lostgringo says on Jul 30, 2005, 23:08:

run away wife From everything I have heard here Adriana you could be suffering from acute depression. No I am not a doctor but have much experience in this area. I don't think you are thinking things through at this point. How could you? You are not yourself. People have recommended a healthy lifesyle and I agree with that. However, in my humble opionion, you should also speak with a counsellor. This has also been suggested above. However, I am not talking about a Marriage Counsellor in terms of reconciliation. I am suggesting that you seek out someone who you can talk to about divorce, separation and perhaps depression. I do not recommend a psychiatrist who often seek out medication which often masks the underlying problem. Again, that has been touched on in here.
I also suggest that you get out of the house and walk, run, swim or whatever. Try and break the routine you are in. Get out of the rut "so to speak". Don't be afraid to call a help line if you need to. Try finding a group to share your interests with. Once you break free of your feelings of helplessness maybe try and volunteer. Meet new friends. I know you will be ok and do the right thing for the benefit of all concerned.

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.http://www.monsterrakebacks.comCome gamble and get money back!

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Lucia Rojas says on Jul 30, 2005, 23:30:

Good one Chris666 Thanks for sharing your experience and for agreeing with me, I have been getting a lot of critizism for starting a thread about depression... apparently it wasn't colombian enough...

I'm glad to hear you haven't needed your medication while being down there... It probably is all the fruits and good food that you're eating.
I'm sure you won't need it again... and yes meditation does help.

Have fun in Colombia!!!!!Will you be staying long?

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lpdiver says on Jul 31, 2005, 04:30:

Cowboy... Don't you know that all the drinking water in Texas is treated with Prozac instead of chlorine? Covertly, all bottled water is treated with it also. It fact, what is really in those salt mines? No, not crude oil! It is a prozac, which is injected into the ground water supply. Why do you think there are so many happy Mexicans in texas...hehehe.

T

"cook some rice!"

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kernow62 says on Jul 31, 2005, 05:37:

Listen to all the good advice that has been posted.

I think it boils down to you need something familiar and comfortable around you and for you that is Colombia nad your famly. Whether this will actually make you happy... I don't think it will. I would bet money that within a year or less you would be depressed in Colombia and wondering what if...

You aren't the same person that left Colombia, therefor when you go back things won't instantly get better, it is just in you current state of mind Colmbia is a crutch to solving your problems.

Is you husband going to Colombia with you on holiday? If not why not explain how important it is for you to spend time with family and that you would like him to come too. Perhaps with the support of your family and a bit of a vacation you can work on your marriage with a renewed outlook on lif.

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lpdiver says on Jul 31, 2005, 05:48:

Sylvie... She cannot leave the country with out a letter from the father giving her permission. She fully knows this as she has traveled with the children without the father on occasion as she states in her post.

This would lead me to believe that it is her intention to leave under the guise of all being well and simply not returning.

Personally, I find that a post similar to this one that was submitted immediately after becoming a member suspect of being a troll.

However, I often respont to known trolls if I find them interesting and the topic can be of use to others. so, I guess I am a bad himbre for feeding the trolls at times.

T

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Jul 31, 2005, 07:19:

Ah but Gringo... There are always a minimun of three sides to every story. In this case his, hers, the truth, and a judges decision at a minimum...no?

Tony

"cook some rice!"

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lpdiver says on Jul 31, 2005, 07:31:

I do know... Where of I speak on this subject; at least in the state of Louisiana. I am one of those dads that took a child away from her mother. Not an easy thing to do legally or emotionally. (In my case it was necessary)

Adriana if not a troll is setting herself up for some bad consequences.

tony

"cook some rice!"

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Jul 31, 2005, 14:07:

Lostgringo says on Jul 31, 2005, 17:08:

my comment I personally did Not say she suffered from from depression. What I said and quote "From everything I have heard here Adriana you could be suffering from acute depression." The COULD is the operative word.

Regardless, I still give her credit for coming out here and explaining her intensions whether they ge honorable or not. I think it would be terrible if the father could no longer see his children. Most importantly I think it is shame that some parents use their children as pawns.

One thing for she..."in my humble opinion" she needs to start something new for herself that does not involve her husband. I am not suggesting she goes out and party her butt off. I only suggest she could benefit from being around people who can help her get back on her feet emotionly. Right now she may be just striking back in anger without really thinking things over. As someone has suggested she may return to Colombia and not like. Bottom line though I feel is that she would be doing a great injustice to the children if she removed them from their father.
I am with gringo on this point...the children should have their father in their lives..bottom line.

Am I a bleeding heart? Perhaps.

There are many trees to hug in Victoria, BC and I am only on number 989.

Frank

Your Home Away from Home www.welovebogota.com and www.apartmentinbogota.com "Luxury apartments and rooms Cheap" Only 2 blocks from the American Embassy! 24/7 hour security.http://www.monsterrakebacks.comCome gamble and get money back!

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Adrianagon1018 says on Aug 1, 2005, 10:16:

Hello Everyone ! I have been out of these posts for 2 days, and my GOD !! you people went off on me !!
I haven’t post anything before, but I have visited the site many times, I decided to post this as a way of releasing my frustration and hear some advise ( which I have ) Someone is calling me selfish, if I were, I would’ve done this a long time ago, as I stated before I visit Colombia every Christmas, and for the past 4 years I had the opportunity to do it, and if I haven’t is because I do think about my children and their well being, their father is a bad a husband but not a bad father I have to admit that, even if he was a pile of shit, he is still their father and they need to have a father figure in their lives…when it comes to call someone selfish, my husband is leading all of them with a flag in his hand…there are many reasons I feel depressed, food is not one of them, I am proud to say that I am 35 years old and still the same size that I was 15 years ago. The main reason for my depression: my husbands affairs, not once, not twice…as a matter of fact I have lost count, I have forgiven him each time hoping it will be the last, hence the love I feel for him, I can’t forget about what he’s done, and it is because I still love him that hurts, if it weren’t for my kids, I would’ve done something stupid a long time ago ( cutting his penis off, thought about it for years, but haven’t done it…YET ) I just can’t believe after 13 years I left everything and flew five thousand miles for this shit !!
Thanks everyone for your input, information and advise, you all have a great day !

Adri.

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Lucia Rojas says on Aug 1, 2005, 21:31:

yes adrianagon I think people have been pretty harsh with you....But I have noticed ( and i haven't been a member for long) that they do that everywhere...
At least you got to get it all out of your system.
Once a cheater it's hard to change... and it's usually a symptom of something else also.
Good Luck!!! And congratulations on keeping your figure in this country.

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