Normal Living Costs United States and Colombia ....Tourism Not Included

teeo9111 says on Nov 7, 2009, 09:51:

This has been discussed ad nauseum but i'll throw out my observations:

1 and 2 are incorrect if you know how to shop.
10a depends on the estrada you are comparing it to,lower estrada pays next to nothing for electric.
10e also incorrect in my opinion, my cell phone expense in Colombia is dirt cheap compared to my U.S. bill
10f&g again depends on the estrada level

12e - really? I wouldn't know anything about that sort of thing. LOL

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 10:01:

35.00-50.00 per month for unlimited service Metro PCS or Boost and of top of that NO Contract...No way do they even have unlimited in Colombia Cellular Service...

Impossible Cellular Service cheaper in Colombia...If somebody spoke 2000 anytime minutes your telling me Colombia is cheaper No Way..Not even if there mobile to mobile...which is free here in the states..Actually Sprint phones now all calls to mobile phones are free doesn't matter what carrier..

panthdave Miami

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miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 10:19:

Dave, your figures look about right--I belive Gasoline is around the same price, if you have to buy Gas with the average Colombian Salary, its a lot more in Bogota. Fast Food--For me, cheaper in Miami as on Wend and Sunday at my Neighborhood McDonalds there are .49 Burgers and .59 Cheeseburgers. Coffee--Unlimited free refills at my neighborhood , Panera's and Starbucks. First cup(size grande is around $1.79). Public Transportation like the Bus-cheaper in Bogota, same for Taxis. Medical Procedures like Dental, Eyewear ect--Cheaper in Colombia. Everyday items like Toothpaste, Laundry Soap--cheaper in Miami as there are always tons of Coupons to clip and save at least 50% off the retail marked price. Second hand clothing--much cheaper here in Miami--that's why Colombians come here and buy it to resell in Bogota. Bike and Motorcycle brand name parts--cheaper here in Miami. Used Medical Equipment--Cheaper here in Miami, again that's why Colombian Docs come here to buy like new, recent off lease Durable Medical Products--much cheaper here in Miami. Haircuts--cheaper in Bogota at a Col Barbershop. I go to a Beauty School here in Miami and it cost me $4 a clip.

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 10:24:

Mike Gas is more expensive trust me.....7Mil is about 3.50 per gallon all the time too..Miami is cheaper all the time..2.50-3.00 dollars here..

panthdave Miami

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miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 10:28:

True. I wonder what a Gallon of Diesel goes for as my VW is a Turbo Diesel. Here in North Miami today its $2.79/gal. Maybe someone will chime in on the cost of Diesel in Bogota.

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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turnmeon (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 7, 2009, 11:25:

miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 11:29:

Turnmeon--exactly how much is a Gallon(equiv) of Gas in Bogota? How about Diesel? Exactly how much is a gallon?

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 11:31:

How at 7 Mil or more per gallon..My wife just filled up the Moto in Envigado......www.gasbuddy.com has gas in Miami at 2.70-2.80 per gallon....which is 5.5Mil..I am talking unleaded now..which most cars are..

panthdave Miami

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stocktrader says on Nov 7, 2009, 12:27:

I have a prepago phone with comcel. I buy 50.000 peso cards and get over 200 minutes as a bonus. I can receive unlimited free calls. The card lasts me 2 months. That's 25.000 per month. about 12.50 USD a month. After taxes I used to pay sprint 45 USD a month.
Junk food is way cheaper in the States. Fresh fruits and veggies are way cheaper in Colombia if you know where to shop.

I stopped making money trading about 5 months ago and I'm starting a business. So I haven't had any income for a while. I know if I still lived in Miami I would've spent at least 10 grand during this time just to get by. Since I own an apartment in Bogota (I mean own, that is I don't have a mortgage. not like people in the states that "own" with 500k debt and 8k yearly taxes 4k yearly insurance) then my expenses don't go over 1.500.000 pesos a month.

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 12:46:

Cellular will be cheaper if you only receive calls in Colombia people who make calls much Cheaper in the States and you don't have to worry about calling a landline or cellphone all the same...Also people don't have to worry calling a cellphone from a landline without paying extra..Overall cheaper...If you make 1000 outgoing minutes..or even 500 outgoing minutes a month..Cellular is cheaper. House at 500K is over...People are getting into 3Bedroom 2 Bath for 100,000-150,000 now in middle class neighborhoods...Well in Miami..Friend just got in one in S.Miami for 92,000..Middle Class Barrio.. Everything is dirt cheap..You can bargain everywhere.. I even had a Rolo from Bogota agree with me....As of now Miami is much cheaper than Bogota Colombia...with there lifestyle..and they have money..

panthdave Miami

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stocktrader says on Nov 7, 2009, 13:04:

Middle class miami is cheaper than El Poblado Medellin. But no way is it cheaper than middle class Colombia. 100k for a house in Miami? Maybe in Richmond Heights or similar neighborhoods. My mom still pays 8k a year in taxes in her Kendall middle class home. Are you saying that property taxes are now 10% a year? There would be a revolution if that was the case. She also pays 4k for homeowners insurance. Granted, they pay more in Florida because of the hurricanes.

I will give you that the lifestyle in Miami is much nicer than in Colombia. (especially if you are a female, married or a retiree). If you are a single male under 50 I give it to Colombia.

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miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 16:06:

A 2BR, 2BA 1160 Sq ft Condo that was sold recently in a short sale in our Neighborhood(north miami) sold for $41K--10 minutes from the Beaches of Sufrside/Bal Harbor. Dave Gas here Today in North Miami, reg unleaded, is $2.66 at a neighborhood station.


Kendall home prices are way overpriced for where they are located, a good 15-20 miles from any Beach, fairly high crime rates. Ever wonder why many homeowners in Kendall have all those Burglar Bars protecting their windows? There's a reason,,,

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 16:31:

I agree Property taxes are lower in Colombia as I stated..above...I see there are different opinions but when I see Colombians starting to say the States are becoming more cost effective than Bogota or Colombia..that should raise some eyebrows..My lifestyle and also in the last three years I am seeing Colombia getting more expensive and the S.Florida is becoming less expensive....Now I one of these persons that don't like to spend the day looking for bargains and somehow I do better in Miami..Example I like to spend an hour or little more buying groceries so I go to Exito in Medellin and Publix in S.Florida...I guess people who have time to shop in Colombia and go to Centro all the time will do better..I don't go to downtown Miami to shop at all...or Centro Medellin..

panthdave Miami

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CakeDesigner-wannabe says on Nov 7, 2009, 16:32:

I like the 'prostitute' part jajaja

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 7, 2009, 16:36:

stocktrader says on Nov 7, 2009, 16:45:

miamimike- those surfside condos were going for 60k even in the boom times. I checked a couple of them out. they seem to be 1940s motels and they are in really bad shape. for 40k I'm tempted to buy one or two. do you know how much are property taxes on those? Even if home values keep dropping in the States property taxes won't come down. they can only go up. How else can they pay some Miamidade bus drivers 100k (with major overtime) and some retired firemen 60k pensions.

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panthdave says on Nov 7, 2009, 17:16:

You will make up the property tax by paying DIAN 16%IVA..LOL.....or if you get caught 33% Income Tax...and they knock at your door and make you payup...in Colombia...

panthdave Miami

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miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 17:27:

St--My condo is Homesteaded so with that $25K Tax Break, along with my $25K Veterans's tax allowance, my taxes are essentially frozen since 2002. I pay ZERO DOLLARS in Dade County real estate tax. NOT ONE DIME. The most my taxes can rise are capped at 3% per year. I bought over 14 years ago so my Tax is based on the selling price then. Neighbors down the hall from me in the same size condo are paying $1000's as they bought when the Prices were high so they pay taxes bases on the inflated Boom/Bubble 2006 price. I pay at the 1995 assessed value and then, the most my taxes can rise ar 3% yearly, if the prices are going up. I got in at the right time when the prices were dirt cheap and I mean cheap. BTW, on the $41K condo I mentioned, I am talking about North Miami and North Miami Beach Prices ; the only really cheap Surside/Bal Harbor prices I see now are in a couple old aprtment buildings where they did those Rip-off Condo Conversions. Stay clear of those at any price but you probably know that already. Those buyers are very unhappy and are trying to unload those condos at ANY Price but without much luck. BTW, Did you know Ex Senator Bob Dole has a small Condo in one of those old Surfside Condo Buildings up from 95th & Collins, on the west side of Collins?

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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jman73 says on Nov 7, 2009, 17:38:

If someone wants to live poor and on the cheap in Colombia then you can do it for relatively very little money. Poor Colombians do it every day and somehow manage to get by but if I want to live like I am accustomed to living in the US then I think any savings are negligible if any. Also a lot of items such as cars, most electronics, name brand clothes/shoes, and just about anything that is not produced nationally are considerably much more expensive.

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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La_Huella says on Nov 7, 2009, 18:54:

First off who the hell needs 1000 minutes a month... I can get by on not even 50k, but 30k for 2 months with comcel. Name ONE cell phone company in the US that will give you service for $7.50 a month.....

As for furniture i JUST went furniture shopping this morning, you can't even GET quality furniture ANYWHERE in the US like you can get here, so it's apples and oranges, but a kitchen table 3 chairs a night table and a big wardrobe cost me less than $500, and done in a wood that will literally last for CENTURIES.

You have the option to drive with natural gas here and that puts it at about half the price of what it would cost in the US. Natural gas in the home is also a lot cheaper. If you live in Estrato 4 and above (which even in relatively monied Bogota puts you in the upper 20 or 25% of the population) you pay a premium on utilities. Estrato 3 where I now live is the base line, and it's dirt cheap by any US standards, including electricity. Water is a little pricey but when you look at the quality, it's not such a bad deal. Not too many places in this world the tap water is potable anymore.

Clothes are also NOT more expensive here, you have to change your mentality. I can get a shirt tailor made for 23k pesos here. I can get a pair of custom made leather shoes that KILL anything you'll find in ANY store in the US for 40k-80k pesos.

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jman73 says on Nov 7, 2009, 19:52:

La Huella you are comparing apples and oranges so its not a fair comparison. That rusticos furniture your talking about is inexpensive and well made but It looks like stuff that was made and in style CENTURIES ago. If you want well made, MODERN leather furniture then its expensive.

Name brand clothes ARE more expensive. Sure if you want to go down to the centro or wherever and buy cheap clothes you can but you can also go to walmart in the US and buy clothes and shoes for ONLY $9.99. That still doesn't change the fact that a pair of Nikes and a bottle of Johnnie Walker cost almost DOUBLE in Colombia. I imagine some Colombians can make a pretty darn good Scotch right in their own bathtubs at home that only cost $5 a GALLON.

Heck if you look around in enough dumpsters you can probably find FREE shoes and clothes so why not change your mentality to that. Obviously if you are living on a BEER budget then your furniture, clothes, and other purchases reflect that but for those that are used to strato 6 living then there is little CHEAP about it.

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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Learnersrealm says on Nov 7, 2009, 20:17:

I weave Clothes llike Ghandi from Colombian fabric, and that gets me by. But I cannot stop these white women from visiting my ashram. But that lowers the cost on my wife and i a bit.

"The Spanish moon is rising on the hill But my heart is a-tellin' me I love ya still" - Bob Dylan (Abandoned Love)

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 7, 2009, 20:53:

For produce or meats, I found Colombian grocery stores are way cheaper than in the US. When I first moved there, I went into Vivero for the first time, saw the price of meat, and bought damn near half a cow. And the neighborhood butchers are even cheaper. If a piece of meat at my Walmart here costs $5.00, in Colombia it might be about $2.00.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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miamimike says on Nov 7, 2009, 22:51:

I bought several pounds of USDA Ground Round on sale at the Neighborhhood Publix at $2.99/lb afew weeks ago. Wonder how that compares to the price in Colombia in the type of Supermarket as Publix?

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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stocktrader says on Nov 8, 2009, 00:28:

Nothing beats USA sales prices. When I went to visit my cousin in Montreal, CA I thought everything was more expensive than in Miami. With gold over 1100 usd and the printing presses at the FED and treasury running 24/7 the time of the USD as the world's reserve currency is limited. Major Latin American style inflation in the USA is coming. Countries like Colombia and Brazil have been way more responsible with their finances than the USA lately. That is why their currencies have apreciated against the greenback.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 8, 2009, 01:20:

I was buying skirt steak at Exito and Vivero for the equivalent of $1 a lb - although it was 3 years ago. The neighborhood butchers sold it for even less.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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miamimike says on Nov 8, 2009, 02:10:

I'll bet sales wise nothing compares to the upcoming "Black Friday" Day after Thanksgiving sales held here in South Florida. Granted the Wait &Lines can be long but the Bargain prices also can be awesome. The Rumor this Year on Black Friday is there will be really decent Laptops selling for $300--Full Size Pentiums at that and not the 10" Netbooks. May have to get in line with the Crazies for one of those,,,One more Nut

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 8, 2009, 02:57:

$300 - I might have to get one myself. Nevermind, I will be driving from Orlando to Destin after flying back from MDE; and then have to work from 11pm until 9am. Fing black Friday. It sucks.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Desi1 (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Nov 8, 2009, 02:58:

Huellita, what's the name for the wood that lasts for CENTURIES in Colombia that they use to make furniture with and which is also cheap? I just want to know so I can ask my carpenter to make me some stuff with it. I know mahogany and walnut and guayacan (cedro negro and cedro de Caquetá), of those cedro negro is THE ONLY ONE that resists comején or termites in the long run, perhaps guayacán too, but the cheaper woods ike cedro rosado don't unless treated and now we are not talking about low-cost furniture at all.

A fronte praecipitium a tergo lupi

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Robert Jorge says on Nov 8, 2009, 03:05:

I know what you are talking about Desi - but I don't know the name either. I can't remember.

"You can not take the barrio out of the girl you really can't." Oneforamillion

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Buongone says on Nov 8, 2009, 03:34:

Cedro espanol. Looks good too.

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panthdave says on Nov 8, 2009, 04:08:

Going back to Cellular service..My mother has prepaid T-Mobile Service which is running her about 8.50-10.00 a month.but the incoming calls do count as minutes and in Colombia if you have no more minutes left you can still receive calls...I see that changing ..

All and All...The difference of costs between Colombia and United States is getting closer..

panthdave Miami

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johnny2009 says on Nov 8, 2009, 04:47:

Panthdave, so far as I know the USA is the only country in the world where cellphones are assigned geographic numbers. (maybe canada too, i don't know) So nowhere else in the world is receiving calls an issue on a prepaid phone with no credit because the termination costs that the calling party pays means that the cell network still earns big time by placing calls to the called number. Regardless of whether or not it has credit.

Disallowing received calls on a prepay phone without credit would cost dearly and it will never happen in Colombia.

I do understand though that if you fail to credit your prepay phone at least once every three months then they will cancel your service.

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rhydewithdis (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 8, 2009, 05:24:

Just to put this discussion into context, we are all talking about the purchasing power parity between a set of countries. As can be noted in this discussion, some things are cheaper in Colombia and other things are not.

The Big Mac index is a common way of measuring purchasing power parity between two currencies. With an average price $3.41 for a Big Mac in the US, Colombia ends up more expensive at $3.53 for the same big mac based on the July 2008 index refresh when the COP was trading at around 1,956 to the USD (basically what it is at today).
http://adamsmith.files.wordpress.com/2008/07/cfn628.jpg

Another recently popular index was the Ikea Billy Bookshelf index but alas, Ikea does not operate in Colombia. http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601068&sid=a.K4T4ypP9ko

Although somewhat older, there is also a cocaine index the Economist did in 2007 which obviously shows that cocaine is cheapest in Colombia $4 in Colombia vs $714 in New Zeland): http://www.joeydevilla.com/2007/06/28/the-economists-cocaine-index/

Bottom line is that Colombia is still an emerging market and many imported goods and services will command a premium in the short-run until consumption increases allowing these goods and services to realize greater economies of scale which will help the cost structure.

The folks on this board seem to think that eating at McDonalds and Red Lobster and wearing name brand clothing is par for the course throughout the world when that is NOT the minimum standard of living in most other countries. Outside of the US, you would really need to live in the Western Europe, Hong Kong, etc to enjoy these modern day conveniences. In Latin America, outside a few select cities, you cannot expect the same phenomena.

They said I couldn't play football I was too small / They say I couldn't play basketball I wasn't tall / They say I couldn't play baseball at all / And now everyday of my life I ball.

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jman73 says on Nov 8, 2009, 07:40:

Desi1 I don't know the name of the wood but he is referring to whatever they make the rusticos furniture out of. You see it all the time and It looks like the furniture that Christopher Columbus probably had and weights a ton.

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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La_Huella says on Nov 8, 2009, 08:31:

The problem with food is that in Colombia the farmers markets are cheaper whereas in the US they are more expensive. In both cases the quality of the farmers markets stuff is WAY better. So it's a good idea not to shop in supermarkets if you can afford it... in Colombia you'd have to be mentally retarded to choose the supermarkets except for buying a few things here and there for convenience... of course a lot of people including richer Colombians do just that. Rich Colombians are incredibly good at throwing their money away. That's why I always say if you want to live the "rich" lifestyle here why even bother coming, you'd be better off in the US!

The wood is called "madera de demolicion" and properly treated it lasts indefinitely. You don't have to get the furniture in rustic style, you can have it custom made any way you want. Art deco is another popular choice here, but they can make anything. I personally like the rustic style because I can't stand sharp lines. And if you want it to last more than 10 years it's going to "weigh a ton"... that's kind of the whole idea. If you want disposable garbage, well, once again, the US is your country (while it lasts)... just stay up there and continue not caring about quality.

Same thing for "name brands"... are you guys actually suggesting that that fucking logo is important to you? Once again, if you're that shallow that the most important feature of a piece of clothing is not the quality but the logo, the US is the PERFECT country for you. Enjoy it while it's still around...

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jman73 says on Nov 8, 2009, 08:54:

Yea la huella probably doesn't even have or need cable TV. I mean why would you need it when you can live in a shanty for pennies on the dollar, have a black and white television with rabbit ears, and can get TV for FREE.

The whole point of the thread was making an apples to apples comparison, not a "I can get __ from Pablos primo for cinco mil".

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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Coffeeman says on Nov 8, 2009, 08:59:

I have been enjoying this discussion. I live in Texas south of Houston. Been visiting Colombia since 1984. I'm going to retire there in 1-2 years. I agree with Stocktrader. Panthdave's original post is somewhat flawed due to many generalizations. Using Bogota and Miami as the main points of comparison is unfair. Also, as others have pointed out, comparisons have to be normalized in all aspects to make them fair (can't compare Colombian import prices to US import prices for example).
Sure the cost of property in US is getting cheaper (it's been overpriced too long), but the value of Colombian property is increasing and that's good for the investor long term. As someone said, printing money is not the solution. It's always apparent that people who want to live the "high life" with the trapping of status symbols (clothes, cars, etc.) focus on these as COL needs. Again, don't even compare Estrato-6 cost in Bogota to "middle class" Miami. It's not the same so don't even go there. Estrato-6 living is far, far better going away. The true rich live a whole lifestyle we don't even fathom. They don't waste their time in chat rooms or talking in forums like this one. Many Estrato-6 are very rich (honest, legally earned money). If cheap hi-crime, neighborhoods, cheap Nike shoes, bad over-processed, super-preservative food, and cheap booze is important to you. Stay in Miami. Don't worry about Colombia COL. Colombia is better off without many American institutions such as McDonalds, Johnny Walker booze, and alot of overpaid, underworked civil servants (who require high tax bases).

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jman73 says on Nov 8, 2009, 09:11:

Coffeman so what Colombian made Scotch do you suggest?

Also 3 bedroom 120sq meter apartments in Strato 6 Medellin can be bought all day long for 300 million pesos (150k US ) and less depending on actual apartment. How is this price range so much above middle class US standards?

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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La_Huella says on Nov 8, 2009, 09:26:

jman, like I said, you obviously don't give a rat's ass about quality....

I live in an apartment which is absolutely PERFECTLY constructed, with great plumbing, beautiful hardwood and tile floors, immaculate paint job. The furniture I just bought my great grandkids will still be using. All my clothes are of the highest quality. I currently still own a pair of Nikes and a pair of Tims because when I was living in NYC that was what was available, but when my current shoes are worn out, I will buy a pair of custom made shoes that KILL the quality of the shit I bought in the US, at a fraction of the price. It's not about "living in a shanty"... it's about not pouring your money down the drain for shit that ISNT quality, a disturbing and disguting habit among many gringos and the richest 10% of Colombians as well.

Cable TV? Dude I don't have a TV PERIOD.... I hate TV, just like I hate cars and malls. That's part of a lifestyle I want ZERO to do with. Once again if Cable TV is that high on your prority list, I dunno even what to say to you.

There is NO SUCH THING as an apples to apples comparison between the US and Colombia. The quality of the food supply in Colombia is MUCH MUCH MUCH better to start with, for one thing. In most US cities a car is a necessity, here in Bogota it's more of a LIABILITY than anything else, natural gas is available to fuel vehicles here, outside of 1-2 places in the USA this is not the case. Also in most jurisdictions in the US hot water tanks are MANDATORY in housing, which is actually very unhealthy and unsanitary. Not to mention I can pay 25k here for a full day of maid service, which means she can do the mercado for me and cook lunch in addition to cleaning the place. This is an incredible time saver which is impossible anywhere in the US. Somehow that's not supposed to count as a plus in your reckoning.

And OBVIOUSLY something made in the US that has to be imported here is going to be expensive. The real question is, why on earth would anybody WANT to buy Nikes here when you can get better and custom made shoes for cheaper? Why would you WANT to drink swill like Red Label when Viejo De Caldas is better and way cheaper?

And for the record, rabbit ears no longer work, in Colombia OR in the US. Both countries have killed the analog TV signal.

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La_Huella says on Nov 8, 2009, 09:31:

The whole point of living in Colombia for me is not SETTLING for the crap the machine feeds you. Not SETTLING for fourth rate food that damages your health and makes you old before your time. Not SETLLING for TV that rots your brain, for half ass construction, for furniture that's ready for the landfill in 5 years, no more paying 5x more for something for the privelege of helping advertise the company you bought the shit from, no more paying for shit you don't need or want, no more doing what I don't want to do because here i can PAY someone else to do it.

There just is no comparison. The best things about living in Colombia are unavailable in the US and Canada. AT ANY COST.

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Coffeeman says on Nov 8, 2009, 09:42:

jman73,
I don't drink Scotch, but if I did I sure would not drink any blend, only single malt (and I would not let the price of Scotch determine where I chose to live). With respect to the price of a 3-bedroom apartment at 150. Your scrapping the bottom of the barrel (as I said earlier, all US realty is way overpriced. Middle class realty should be way cheaper, but labor cost here are way too much compared with the rest of the world. If this was adjusted for labor cost, then upper class US reality would look more like Estrato-6 reality, and many of the US people thinking of buying Estrato-6 realty would actually have to consider Estrato-3 reality). If you are an Estrato-6 US economic class individual; then set your sights higher. I wouldn't consider anything less than 500 million pesos or more. Why worry about the price of water, or gas, or internet if you are targeting Estrato-6 as a lifestyle. Or is it you want to appear like Estrato-6, and get it on the cheap cuz that's all you can afford. People are the same all over; appearances are everything to them. Substance is rare.

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Coffeeman says on Nov 8, 2009, 10:00:

La Huella,

Touche!! I could not say it any better

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jman73 says on Nov 8, 2009, 10:09:

Bro if you think TVs and Cable TV is considered some sort of high priority or Luxury or if you have to wonder why people have it or want it then what is the point of even discussing anything with you. I can guarantee you that if you asked any Colombian or anyone for that matter if they would like to be able to own their own vehicle or have a TV with cable the VAST majority would answer a resounding YES. If someone wants to live a sort of outcast/nomad lifestyle then that is cool but the fact of the matter is that there IS SUCH A THING as an apples to apples comparison.

As for apartments 99.9 percent of all apartments that I have seen in Colombia are made from poured concrete with rebar. I don't know how high in quality that is but it is inexpensive compared to other construction methods. I lived in Colombia for 5 years straight and never saw any of these locally made super high quality running shoes you are talking about. I actually prefer an Adidas Somba indoor soccer shoe for daily wear but regardless I never found anything made in Colombia that was even close.

At least there is one thing we can both agree on and that is Viejo de Caldas rum and Johnnie Walker Red. ... IMO Caldas is the best Rum in Colombia and some of the best rum I have ever had anywhere and I don't care for JW Red Label (fyi they make several different types) either but here again like all of your arguments they are apples and oranges because RUM and SCOTCH are two different things.

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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jman73 says on Nov 8, 2009, 10:25:

OK Coffeman even at 500-600 million pesos you are still talking 250k+ which is still way within middle class home prices. The point of the scotch question was that to my knowledge Colombia does not produce a national Scotch so there is no other alternative.

If there is a Colombia made alternative that provides the same level of quality,features, taste, and style that is acceptable to me and ready available then believe me I would much rather have the locally made item. I enjoy saving money just as much as anyone else but the truth of the matter is that there are many,many things that Colombia doesn't produce locally.

"Anyone who thinks that Colombia is a gastronomical paradise needs to have their head examined." jman73

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Coffeeman says on Nov 8, 2009, 10:31:

Here is an interesting point that most seem to miss. Everybody knows where 99.9 percent of sneakers are made....China. The manufacturing cost is dirt. So the mark-up is super-high. Colombia imposes a high tariff on all import goods. Is this bad? I think not. Consider the price that the US has payed (long-term) for allowing totally unrestricted importation (read..little to no tariffs); no more manufacturing here compared to the heydays back in the 50's, 60's, and 70's. As a consequence, less to no demand for skilled jobs. Colombia's tariffs promote domestic manufacturing. If the pressure of cheap good importation upon Colombian consumers results in tariff reductions, then Colombian manufacturing could outsource as it has already done. The Colombian shoe manufacturing economy has already diminished. More will follow I'm afraid.
La Huella is not a hermit. He has solid values and understands what is important and what is not. All young people are caught up in consumerism these days. He has escape the clutches. Things aren't important. How you live your life, the friends you make, and the memories you make/keep are!

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La_Huella says on Nov 8, 2009, 10:45:

HAHAHAHA I'm FAR from a hermit. I didn't even make it out last night as I was so exhausted from always being out on the town.

If you want to see good construction here in Colombia you gotta look at the old neighborhoods with houses in them. New construction here unfortunately is utter shit, as bad as North American construction.

The shoes you get made in Restrepo. You won't see them in quantity as they are custom made. I have a pair of loafers I had made for 48k. Nothing else has ever felt so good on my feet.

There are lots of people here who would give a lung a testicle and a kidney to have their own car. I consider them immeasurably stupid and try to avoid them as much as I can. There are also lots of people who wouldn't take a car if you paid them to have it. Cars are overpriced here because it's a bad idea to let too many people drive, for many reasons. If you love cars, Bogota is definitely NOT for you. To sum up, if you want to live the consumerist lifestyle there is no argument, the US is the best place on the planet.

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stocktrader says on Nov 8, 2009, 12:05:

You have 2 unemployed people with 5000 USD. One lives in estrato 4 Bogota the other in middle class Kendall in Miami, Queens in NYC or a middle class hood in Chicago. They both have to eat decent food with plenty of veggies and fresh fruits so that they don't get sick. (they don't have health insurance) Assuming they go out on weekends drinking, movies whatever. who runs out of money first?

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makopp5 (☼Travelguide writer) says on Nov 8, 2009, 12:07:

johnny2009 says on Nov 8, 2009, 12:07:

The guy in Colombia runs out first. Anyone with USD5000 in Bogotá is gonna get mugged within the first week

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panthdave says on Nov 8, 2009, 12:08:

Well States have an advantage already unemployment check every week on top of the 5000.00....

The way it looks like is that the Obama administration will give this benefit infinity...no expiration.LOLOLOL..

panthdave Miami

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stocktrader says on Nov 8, 2009, 12:24:

panthdave- ONly if you had a job that pays for for those benefits. If you're self employeed you're out of luck.
makkop- I know just like in the US hehe. I used to pay 300 bucks a month for some crappy insurance. When they left the state they just cacelled it just like that. I always wondered what if I had some progressive disease. What happened to the thousands of dollars that I paid them? That's not what you can call "insurance"

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theflatline says on Nov 8, 2009, 14:28:

Insurance is a risk, a bet, just like the stock market. When you buy it you should know what you are getting, the contract states all.

Legaleez for Complete Morons - A book for gringos in Colombia for who think they understand the nature of the law in a country where they cannot speak the language.

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Coffeeman says on Nov 8, 2009, 16:16:

jman73,
Of course 500k pesos is 250k dollars. The reality is people in US live way beyond their means. I mean to the point of stupidity. Most people are 1-2 paychecks from living out of a shopping cart and under the freeway. How's the return on your Fannie Mae stock? When the US banks and credit card companies stop the insane practice of allowing people to borrow more than they can afford, the problem will only worsen. Assume that the average "middle class" person earning 50k dollars is allowed to borrow 250k for a house...Insane!! In Colombian we're beginning to see the credit syndrome by credit card companies, retailers, and banks (when I first heard the cashier at El Corral ask me "Cuantas Quotas" I flipped out, are they for real?). Why are the financial institutions doing this? Answer - it's profitable...that is until everybody loses their job.
As you said, there are many things Colombian does not make, and this is true for the USA also. As I said in a previous post, Colombia can too approach a melt down. The USA unemployment rate is 10.2% (in reality it is more likely 17 to 20%----a big number).

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misterfinger says on Nov 8, 2009, 17:03:

OK Can someone too survive in Colombia on only 900 a month??? I Here yes But with the low exchange rate of 1900 I figure converting to From American Dollars it does not do the trick..Can some one explain on all this??? That would be great for sure then,,Thanks...

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miamimike says on Nov 8, 2009, 19:10:

Coffeeman--One of the biggest killers in the US Job Market you failed to mention above and beyond the lack of meaningful import tariffs is the fact that China's currency, reletive to the Dollar, is essentially frozen at an unrealistic low rate, thereby handicapping our industry from the getgo. Same will happen in Colombia as Colombia's currency is of the true floating variety so they(col) also cannot fairly compete against China. Only a matter of time until what little remains of Colombia's Textile and leather goods industries are wiped completely due this currency inequity. Any deals(chinese) they are making with the south american countries are pretty much one-wayed to suck out as much of a country's natural resources as they can and send them back in the form of a cheap finished product putting the locals out of work. One only has to look at what happened to these same industries here in the USA the last 10 years to see a good example of how this happens.

No hay Peor Ciego que el que no quiere Ver o Sordo que el que no quiera Oir--Soy Yo, Sarah Palin, Wasilla Alaska.

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misterfinger says on Nov 8, 2009, 19:52:

Can someone answer me??? Seems like travling in colombia you spend an arm and leg here maybe just living here no but traveling and hotels here everday gets expensive man..

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La_Huella says on Nov 8, 2009, 20:26:

Even in Estrato 4 the guy in Bogota would make the money last 4x as long.... and in Estrato 3 8x as long...

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