No Car Day !! in Bogota

vladimiro says on Feb 2, 2005, 09:48:

No Car Day I was there during a similar holiday, but taxis were allowed so it was more like taxi driver day:)

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Lauthra says on Feb 2, 2005, 11:23:

taxis They are always allowed in 'no car day', and they don't close any roads, that's why they've built the ciclorutas.
Nato ;)

Nato (='.'=)

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elmodefoque says on Feb 2, 2005, 11:43:

I spent a couple days in Bogotá and was very impress with the cicloruta. I’m an avid cyclist and even ride bike smack in the middle of winter and sometimes it could be quite brutal in New York. Too bad we can’t have cicloruta in Barranquilla, between the intense heat and street dogs chasing you down, it just won’t be too practical.
I’m on my way home to do some final packing and will be in Bogotá tomorrow.
Over and out!!
guys, see ya soon!

I'll get there, when I get there!

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kernow62 says on Feb 2, 2005, 14:53:

Wow Elmo, I didn't peg you for an avid cyclist (I don't know why). Cool, I ride my bike in the middle of winter too, but I'm in Florida. Which I think statistically is the most danegerous state for cyclists. It is riding in the middle of summer that gets me, it is a pain when your balls are stuck to your legs and you have to pry them loose with a spatula!

I was also very impressed with Bogotá in this regard, a lot of cities in the US and Europe could benefit by following their example.

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Lauthra says on Feb 2, 2005, 20:26:

No Ciclorutas, no ciclovias.
http://www.bogota.gov.co/bogota/histo.php?idh=5430&patron=1&pos=

Nato ;)

Nato (='.'=)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 2, 2005, 20:37:

Proud "Without my Car" Supporter "But this is in my opinion the most stupid thing I have ever heard of a city doing. People have to get up extra early to get to work and the only people who have a chance to enjoy the day are those who don't have a job. Maybe some are encouraged to try mas transit but for what people pay for cars around here I think if you have one you are sure going to drive it."

This is a ridiculous misrepresentation of one of the most progressive things Bogota has. This is actually the one day I wished I was back home. I don't think things have changed that much since the last time I enjoyed one of these beautiful days, but from what I recall:

1. Cabs are very busy and it is virtually impossible to get one (good, I wish they were compensated by an addition to their normal fee, so that they wouldn't work that day)

2. Buses are very crowded, but if you get into one, you get anywhere in minutes. (Now with TM, it must be even better)

3. It's the best day to take your bike to work.

4. Or simply walk! Bogota, by any standards, occupies an amazingly small area.

If you have a job (as I did) get up a bit earlier, dress casually, and get there a bit late. Talk over coffee about the things you saw on the way. And post some pictures here!

All transportation will have to go public eventually, everywhere (and that goes to the suburban sprawls of the US too!) Bogota has taken an enormous lead, and should be applauded for that.

Oh, BTW, flip off a Hummer if you see one: http://wilson.greenpride.com/

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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fzrdan says on Feb 2, 2005, 20:49:

***All transportation will have to go public eventually, everywhere (and that goes to the suburban sprawls of the US too!) Bogota has taken an enormous lead, and should be applauded for that.***

You mean nobody owns cars at all? Ha, that is a good one. You don't really believe that would ever happen do you?

I agree that Hummers are ridiculous and most people that have one just buy it as a trophy. Here in the states all the people with these huge SUV's are, well, not too smart in my opinion. A coworker of mine said he 'needed' an SUV. He has a wife and an infant. He needs an SUV? PLEASE.

Privately owned cars will never go away. The only hope is to develop a viable alternative to gasoline that is inexpensive and clean.

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Lauthra says on Feb 2, 2005, 20:59:

I agree Having an SUV to take the kids to school and back and go to the shops it's a disgrace. They say it's for safety, but if everyone else drives one they just as unsafe when they hit one of 'em. And they use so much bloody petrol...
Nato ;)

Nato (='.'=)

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 2, 2005, 21:06:

Privately own cars WILL go away They are barely 100 years old, and at the rate they are reproducing (at least here in the US), the whole system will eventually collapse. As cities grow, functional cities like NYC are expanding public transportation and pushing private cars further away. Now people in the middle of Long Island are facing about to 2hrs of commute (on a good day). It will grow to 3 in a decade or two, public transportation will take over (and it is taken over already with the extensive use of the LIRR already), and private car commuters will be pushed away even further (some are reported already in the Poconos...) This can't grow indefinitely.

And that is in a functional city. Take a disfunctional one, like LA. Ever tried to drive on the 405? or on any freeway for that matter! Not just on rush hour, but on ANY hour. At some point it is faster to simply walk. Right now commuters are adapting by buying huge cars that serve as substitutes of their living room, but eventually they will be spending the whole day in a car, and no economy can sustain that (unless someone figures out a way of working from a car).

This is the kind of hell that Bogota will not have to face if it develops a sensible public transportation system. I believe I'll still be around by the time the car is turned into a luxury item.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Lionheart says on Feb 2, 2005, 21:34:

working from the car sad as it sounds, they already exist: Road Warriors is their name in the hi-tech business. A whole new marketing has evolved around them, turning their usually huge cars into moblie offices with internet connection and computers. This is the hi-tech answer to being stuck and ineffective in traffic, loosing corporate time and money.

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vladimiro says on Feb 3, 2005, 08:17:

Pico y Placa Bogota's "Pico y Placa " laws have been pretty sucessful. They are goind to be applied in Medellin now.

http://www.transitobogota.gov.co/categoria.asp?cat_id=87

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kernow62 says on Feb 3, 2005, 10:17:

I know a few folks who ride bikes in suits, sure it looks unusual in the US but in other countries it is nothing odd. Bikes are a very efficient means of getting around.

Now as for Bogota being small enough to walk around, well I am not that sure, it may not be spread out as much as some megacities but it is plenty big. Perhaps if people lived closer to where they worked it might be possible.

I believe only some of the TM buses are running cleaner diesel, but hopefully this will become uniform.

I too believe that one day personal cars will become at the very least a rare sight, but I doubt in my lifetime.

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 3, 2005, 10:25:

Gomezman5 says on Feb 3, 2005, 10:26:

GIB You are a stich!!!!!!!!

You call it like it is!!

And, you are right most of the time

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 3, 2005, 10:27:

kernow62 says on Feb 3, 2005, 11:34:

Geez GIB, I figured you could whip the asses of a few punks who wanted your bike. What about grabbing the nearest Uzi from a cop and shooting them, where's our superhero? jaja

Serious note. I did see quite a few working folks riding bikes, are you telling me they are crazy for doing so? Or is it because you look like a gringo that it would not be a good idea?

Another thing that puzzles me, I saw quite a few nice bikes in Bogota, easily $500 in the USA sitting unlocked near their owners in the park while they lazed about enjoying the nice day. Shouldn't they be more concerned with thieves hopping on and riding away. I know in the UK we at least remove the seat to make it a bit more difficult to ride, although that is no real deterrent.

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lpdiver says on Feb 3, 2005, 11:37:

Hummers are so popular Because the U.S. government subsidizes them for business owners.

Tony

"cook some rice!"

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Tinto (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Feb 3, 2005, 11:40:

On the plus side, -I believe most of that tax deduction was stripped January 1, 2005

-The biggest Hummers seem to have peaked in popularity

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 3, 2005, 12:21:

caslug says on Feb 3, 2005, 12:36:

comparing biking in amsterdam to bogota.. is a little off, amsterdam is flat for practicle purpose so it is not very tiring. depending on where you live in bogota you may biking up and down hills, in shorts or jeans would be fun and good exercise. But with a suite lugging a laptop or briefcase on your back is not so much fun i would imagine. wouldnt make more sense to close the steet on a sunday rather than a work day. that way people dont have to worry about how to get work. and what is the point of allowing taxis but not car, what about those private taxi that work for hotel is that consider car or taxi.

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Lauthra says on Feb 3, 2005, 13:12:

???????????? I have read your posts about Bogotá, and I agree in being cautious, but spreding panic like this it's just plain silly. The bike idea it's definately insane, but 'They take you bike like this. Hit you in the back of the head with a rock, shoot you in the face, follow you to a nice dark spot and point a gun in your face. ' How many people have you met that actually had that done to them?
Nato ;)

Nato (='.'=)

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Feb 3, 2005, 13:18:

Lionheart says on Feb 3, 2005, 13:40:

Amsterdam vs. Colombia from the stories I heard you need to watch out for wild taxis and buses in Colombia to survive. I got run down by several bicycles in amsterdam and Rotterdam ... they also have no road rules ... but it is funny to watch a bike cop chase another biker .... whole intersections turn red for pedestrians and bikers at same time, beware of diagonal bikers trying to run you over.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 3, 2005, 13:45:

Fear, accomplishments and progressiveness GiB,

In the 14 years (1986-2000) that I lived in Bogota, I don't think I heard your preposterous tale more than once or twice. I used to work in Galerias and Chapinero, and went to school downtown, and was there frequently at night, and I have only been mugged once in Bogota, and it was actually uptown (93rd) by a guy who got my CP$14K more out of pity than force. This is not to underrate Bogota's security issues: the city is dangerous, but as long as you stay out of trouble, out of the dangerous neighborhoods (e.g., parts of Ciudad Bolivar, Santa Fe), and don't do stupid things like riding an ultra-expensive bike, it is unlikely that anything will happen to you.

What has this day accomplished? I don't know if you were around in the pre-Peñalosa days. I had to take a bus from Niza-Suba to downtown every day of the week: 1.5 hrs each way. To add insult to injury, this was a non-issue for car owners (which, along Sta Barbara residents, are a minority in the city). Those who took public transportation and those who drove their own cars lived in parallel universes, and Peñalosa was well aware that this would undermine his public transportation proposal. He needed the leverage of public opinion to face Bogota's transportation mafia. Part of the solution was "No Car Day". Sure, it wasn't the final solution to this problem, but it significantly raised the awareness of the transportation problem. His proposal was fully backed, and people voted to fix in the local legislature a vision of the city that would've been impossible otherwise.

Does that sound to you as enough justification?

Why I think this is a progressive event? Because it (temporarily) takes away the privileges of a few citizens (like GiB, apparently) to raise awareness of the situation of most citizens, pushing forward a more equitative and sustainable vision of the city. Again, THIS IS NOT THE SOLUTION TO ALL TRANSPORTATION PROBLEMS (e.g., pollution) but is a significant step in the right direction.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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goosekirk says on Feb 3, 2005, 14:21:

Huh "They take you bike like this. Hit you in the back of the head with a rock, shoot you in the face, follow you to a nice dark spot and point a gun in your face."

Man, that is one tough city. I mean, after the fractured skull and bullet in the face, they don't need to drag me off and threaten me some more - they can just take the bike, already!

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caslug says on Feb 3, 2005, 15:03:

this is too funny... most of the poster that think no car day during a workday is great are people who are not working in bogota right now or dont use car to go to work. so of course there is no downside. Sure it looks cool and idyllic to imagine taking our time to walk, ride the bus, or bike to work on that day on a sunny day. but if you really had to do it i would be different story. What if it rains, will they have more bus running, you ll soaked getting to work? More bikers on the street just mean more live target for those crazy taxi drivers. or if was a thief it would be theives day in bogota because suddlenly all those well to do business people are now riding buse or waiting for taxis, instead of going from their office to their car and going home. LOL.

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kernow62 says on Feb 3, 2005, 16:10:

GIB, I don't profess to know as much as you do about Bogotá, that is why I asked a question, it was not rhetorical. Obviously I don't think riding a nice bike in a suit is a good idea in Bogotá, of course I don't think it a good idea in many places. I would use a bike much like I do when I am in the UK, a single speed crappy frame beat up piece of shit, I also don't wear suits unless it is a funeral or a wedding.

Now my wife lived in Bogotá for a lot more years than you have, she didn't live in a bad area, but neither was it great. She rode in taxis, rode public transport and with I guess a little common sense she survived, was never robbed, never mugged, beaten up hit with rocks etc. She does know people who were robbed, and even kidnapped. Bogotá used to be a lot worse than it is today. We also have lots of family in Bogotá, they also seem to have escaped harm for 50 plus years. They have been victims of petty crimes, and breaking and entering, an occasional purse snatcher. Crap like that happens everywhere, in the UK in the US etc.

I don't know how long you have lived there, but I suppose your line of work lets you see more violence than the average resident.

I am not downplaying Bogota's dangers, but I think you tend to embelish things a bit.

Bogotá is building for the future, perhaps looking forward when you will be able to ride day or night. Of course when that day come (I am optimistic) there will still be crimes and folks like you pointing out the dangers of getting out of bed in the morning.

By the way I am not in the UK anymore, I am in a safer place now.

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 3, 2005, 16:45:

Caslug At least in my case your correlation doesn't apply. I had a car during my last years in Bogota, and drove it regularly to work, and I did not take the day off for no car day. BTW, there's a major downside if you ride buses regularly: it gets really crowded.

You ask questions as if No Car day was a hypothetical project. What if this, what if that. If it rains, wear a poncho (a bit of water won't kill you), be careful when you ride your bike, and if you have never taken a bus before, well, don't bring with you any sensitive documents or too much money. Besides, even if you lose your wallet, you would've learn a good lesson.

This is No Car Day, not Comfort day.

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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Cerealkiller says on Feb 3, 2005, 17:13:

No car day is definitely unpractical, you get to realize Bogota has probably a lot more taxis than needed, Transmilenio is a pain and what have you. Ciclying for me is definitely not an option for two reasons 1. I live in Santa Barbara and have to drive my ass off to Uniandes every single day...and having to drive all the way there is enough torture...now ciclying...GIVE ME A BREAK!!! with or without a suit that is just mental!
Now there are very positive things about having to use public transport, Its easier for me to catch a bus than to go to the nearest transmilenio station so here is the tale:
On my way there 3 casual vendors told the bus their unfortunate stories...One of them at next to me -as i was in the back listening to my music- and for some reason I left my wallet on the seat, forgot to put it back in my backpack and when i got to central Bogota and had to get off the guy took my wallet and said "Mona, me va a dejar la billetera?" I was sooo grateful i bought him 5 pens...You get to bump into all sorts of people thats a positive thing. Then walking to the Las Aguas station this afternoon one of the guys who sells rings and stuff in the street in front The Colombo institute thing gave me a ring just because...The guy in the transmilenio gave me his seat and I met a cute guy...
So yes, buses are crap here, theyre old, they sound strange...the city was still chaotic, my very slefish self would rather have a no bus day...but there are positive things as well...this is going to sound crazy but you get to socialize in very uncommon places and thats the one positive thing i got from today. However, I will keep on driving hahahaha

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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Cerealkiller says on Feb 3, 2005, 17:22:

LOL GiB youre such a Grinch. I didnt have a bad experience, the bus was not that crowded this morning...in fact it wasnt at all!!! Transmilenio...ok yeah, that one is cruel...English cattle cars are luxury vehicles but I got a seat HA!

Conservatives are not necessarily stupid, but most stupid people are conservatives -John Stuart Mill

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miamimike says on Feb 3, 2005, 17:54:

TransMilenio recommended for Miami's Congestion We have, probably as many of you already know, almost the worst traffic congestion problems in the USA. Last year we were no.1 as the "Worst City" in the USA to drive in;this yr. we moved to #3-so we were demoted but not by much-it still SUX bigtime to drive here in Miami-Dade/Ft. Lauderdale. Our traffic planners have suggested Bogota's Transmilenio as a possible solution to reducing the current situation here in Miami. Our Buses don't run often either-so its impractical for most of us who work off the mainlines of the bus routes. Building more and Bigger Highways is not the solution either as as soon as a new stretch of road is built its already overwhelmed with cars,trucks,ect. Forget driving a motorcycle here-an instant death sentence! I would rather have Bogota's smoky buses then practically No Buses and intolerable road congestion as we have in miami.

Tinto--that crazy Bush SUV deduction($100,000) did not go away completely--it has been changed but still is more or less the same. My boss(owner of a medical agency) purchased an 8,000lb SUV HUMMER last year to cart her 6 lb. dog around in on the streets of Miami--and the Federal Government practically payed for the whole purchase. Good use of our TAX Dollars,eh? Record Deficits and people wonder why!!



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Hummer tax break gets hammered
By Jay MacDonald • Bankrate.com


One year ago, you could have driven your new three-ton, business-use SUV through a little-known tax loophole and written off the entire purchase price in the first year.

But Congress has tightened that controversial loophole for high-end luxury SUVs, though many of the rank-and-file heavyweights will still breeze through with the same 100-percent write-off in the year of purchase.

The furor all started a couple years ago when some sharp-eyed accountants and their professional clients discovered a glitch in the tax code that proved big enough to drive a Hummer through, tax free.

The tax provision's original intent back in the 1970s was to enable small farmers and self-employed workers to buy a truck or van without having to fork over the luxury car tax that was then in effect and has since expired. At the time, it made perfect sense to qualify the vehicles by weight because no luxury cars exceeded the 6,000-pound gross vehicle weight threshold.






Under the Jobs and Growth Act of 2003, Congress raised the deduction ceiling for these heavy-class vehicles from $25,000 to $100,000, bumped the "bonus deduction" from 30 percent to 50 percent, and left in place the accelerated five-year depreciation schedule. This, in effect, made virtually all three-ton, business-use SUVs fully deductible in the first year. More than 50 vehicles qualified for the tax break.

Sure enough, tax-savvy self-employed professionals such as doctors, dentists and yes, accountants, connected the weight of today's luxury SUVs with the obscure tax loophole and started sporting heavy iron in order to deduct the entire purchase price in the first year. Which might explain why traffic lanes have seemed a little narrower lately.

Robin Hood in reverse
That blatant abuse of the intent of the tax code didn't sit well with the Taxpayers for Common Sense, the watchdog organization that first cried foul on the high-styling urban cowboys. The tax group estimated that the so-called SUV tax break cost taxpayers between $840 million and $987 million for every 1,000 vehicles sold. Worse, it was robbing the poor to feed the rich.

Environmental groups soon weighed in as well, expressing outrage that the tax code was, in effect, encouraging consumers to purchase gas-guzzling behemoths. What's worse, they pointed out, is that because the big rigs are categorized by weight with farm machinery, SUVs are exempt from federal fuel efficiency guidelines.

Congress reversed itself last fall with passage of the American Jobs Creation Act of 2004 and cinched back the SUV loophole from $100,000 to $25,000 while retaining both the 50-percent bonus deduction and the five-year depreciation schedule. The deduction is claimed as a Section 179 expense, meaning you must be in business, filing a Schedule C or corporate tax return, to claim it.

Will the lower expense ceiling stop the heavy-metal stampede? Not likely, says Ronnie Windham, a certified public accountant in Oxford, Miss.

"I don't think it's going to affect people's buying habits. Most people buying SUVs are paying $40,000 or $50,000, so by the time you take the 50 percent bonus deduction and the $25,000 depreciation expense, most of them are still going to write off the full amount."

Windham notes that SUVs also enjoy what is called a maker's depreciation. "There's no dollar limit on the amount you take off each year, it's just based on what the vehicle cost. It actually takes you about six years to fully write off a five-year vehicle," he says.



(continued on next page)
-- Updated: Jan. 20, 2005
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See Also
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• Tax Adviser explains business SUV tax-break rules
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Sr Tertius says on Feb 4, 2005, 16:45:

Survey In the STT webpage, there is some useful information about the outcomes of the car free day:

http://www.transitobogota.gov.co/contenido.asp?plantilla=1&pub_id=422&pag_id=882&cat_id=61

Is there going to be another car free day on 22 Sept?

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kernow62 says on Feb 4, 2005, 18:53:

Gracias Sr. Tertius, but could you please find out how many extra cyclists were beaned in the head with a rock as compared to a normal day?

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Sr Tertius says on Feb 5, 2005, 00:16:

Kernow62: I don't have the exact numbers, but if most people complied with the mandatory helmet rule, fatal rock slinging incidents might have actually diminished ;)

"When the finger points to the moon, the fool looks at the finger" (Chinese proverb)

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kernow62 says on Feb 5, 2005, 04:41:

Isn't it odd that in Bogotá there is a mandatory helmet law for bicycle riders, but where I live in the US you can ride a 160 mph motorcycle without a helmet and without insurance!

By the way I agree with the helmet law, I always use one law or no law.

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