No a los rescates a sangre y fuego

juancegomez says on Mar 18, 2005, 13:48:

I definitely agree with this, I'm all for a prisioner exchange, but apparently that's not going to happen under Uribe (unless he or the FARC suddenly become super-generous and flexible)...though it must also be said that some people do accept the risks involved in these operations, many others don't and that right should be respected.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kikiortiz11 says on Mar 18, 2005, 23:22:

humanitarian exchange you make it as it is uribe's fault that there has been no exchange... it is the farc that has not been willing to accept uribe's offers.... the farc are only willing for an exchange if the government sets another guaviare... this is rediculous and in now way will uribe give them their wish.... uribe is doing exactly what a president needs to do.. standing strong... our armed forces will be demoralized if we let free the some 500 terrorists in jail because they will just go right back to terrorizing us, the people.. if the farc have the voluntude they will accept the government's more than generous offer....

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 19, 2005, 09:28:

Kiki, the Colombian Army is not capable of a rescue These poor people who have been cruelly kidnapped by the FARC and ELN terrorists and are rotting in the jungle somewhere should have been rescued years ago by the brave and strong soldiers of the Colombian Army. I am speaking of the entire city council of Cali, of countless soldiers, police, mayors, and citizens, including one Presidential candidate, Ingrid Betancourt. (Not to mention the USA soldiers the FARC holds--and Bush and his military machine have been powerless against the FARC. It is an outrage to USA citizens that gringos have to rot in the Colombia jungle, too, and Bush has not rescued them.)

Our good paisa President Uribe was elected to be the "mano dura" and "darles plomo" a las FARC. His hand would not tremble to pull the trigger, the people thought. And he has some need to "ajustar cuentas" for what happened to his father.

The FARC was in support of Uribe in the presidential election. Uribe was the candidate the FARC wanted to see win because he was the most vociferous about the need to eliminate the FARC and Uribe promised the Colombian voters he could do the job.

The reason the FARC supported Uribe is because they wanted to demonstrate to Colombians that a FARC victory is inevitable. FARC was saying: Bring on the best you got, bring on the gringos, if you like, but you are wasting your time because we will be victorious.

If Uribe talks about a prisoner exchange, after being so adamant in the past, it is an admission of his own weakness and inability to defeat the FARC. It is a confirmation of the correctness of the FARC strategy to support Uribe for President.

The FARC is the stronger of the two in this conflict and is winning the war. The proof of this is guerrillas now control more than 50% of the municipal budgets in the country. The numbers in guerrilla ranks are growing. They operate pretty much at will, kidnap whoever they want, and may be allied with ELN for a final victory over the Colombian oligarchy (the 17 families who traditionally ran the country). Like has happened elsewhere the oligarchy will abandon Colombia for other parts of the world. They won't stay and fight and die. They will be in Miami living the good life. (And not in barrio Kendall!)

Either one side has to "win" or they both have to agree to sit down and talk. Otherwise, this will just drag out for 50 more years of stalemate while certain people become richer. Arms dealers are certainly becoming richer because Colombians are killing Colombians. A victory by the Colombian Army or a victory by the FARC would seriously damage war profiteering.

Plátano, quien ama a los seres humanos, colombianos todos, en ambos lados del conflicto

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kikiortiz11 says on Mar 19, 2005, 10:37:

Platano I disagree.. The FARC will never be victorious and are not winning this conflict... I believe that the FARC was supporting no one in the last election and if they were supporting anyone it was Serpa.. And I have heard that the guerrilla ranks are diminishing not growing.. Uribe is the people's leader and a FARC victory will never happen.. They do not have the people's support.. This is not like a Cuba where Castro had the majority of the people behind his revolution.. Colombia will never become a communist country..Uribe has regained confidence in the people and we will move foward from here... That is why Colombian history will be divided into two sections... La Colombia Pre-Uribe y La Colombia despues de Uribe.. There are only two outcomes to this conflict , The victory of our armed forces or the peace dialogue...

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 19, 2005, 11:07:

Kiki, Perhaps I have an unfair advantage because I was kidnapped by guerrillas and spent too much time with them "in the mountains of Colombia" so I can easily dispute your claim that the people are not supporting the guerrillas. I saw the guerrillas purchasing food from poor country folk, and paying them a just price. I saw, indeed I was a captive on the floor inside, buses being loaned to guerrillas to transport them (and me) driven by local "campesino" bus drivers. And when we were in rough country (abriendo paso con machete) and needed to transverse "las trochas" where vehicles could not go, the people made horses available. Doctors from the city also came to guerrilla encampments to provide medical care. I was able to speak to poor campesinos who could explain how the guerrillas provided for their families while they were "prestando servicio militar." Not only do they have the support of the people, their ranks come from the people. People who would not be receptive to the guerrilla if they felt an official presence or governmental concern for their problems.

I have also spoken to people who went through a formal (not to say legal) process of leaving the rural FARC to continue work in the cities. Used to be the "problem" was isolated deep in the jungle or in the mountains. Now, the "milicias urbanas" control portions of the city. This was brought home to me when I attempted to go to a funeral in a barrio marginal in Medellin. I was stopped by a road block of the milicias and asked where I was going. (As if I need permission from "culicagados prepotentes" to travel inside a major city, or anywhere else in Colombia. Such a right is guaranteed by the Colombian Constitution). When I explained I was going to the funeral of fulano, they refused to let me pass. But why, I asked. The answer was simple: "No nos gustó el difunto." There is no official presence in these barrios. The guerrillas control parts of the cities as well.

The point is, the guerrillas could not continue if the people did not support them. No guerrilla army can. That is what is behind the masacres commited by AUCC and and the masacres commited FFAA de Colombia. Through masacres and intimidation they think they can punish those who provide support for guerrilla forces. Sadly, the FFAA and AUCC have resorted to murdering those who have declared neutrality; they cannot tolerate those who want no part of violence. (Or maybe they are REALLY guerrillas dressed up as Army regulars, right?) But masacres of civilians won't work. It is a deadend strategy and only increases support for the guerrillas. Otherwise, the guerrillas would have been defeated by now.

And, the fact is they are not defeated, in spite of material resources and training provided by USA and in spite of an absolute will to conquer them on the part of Uribe.

And if (a big if) the FARC wins I don't think Colombia will become communist. It will look more like a democratic socialism, or perhaps it might be like Venezuela, Uruguay, and Brazil are today, with emphasis on health clinics, education and infrastructure, using the funds freed up that were previously spent on arms and killing each other.

When I was held captive by the guerrillas I urged them to put down their arms and stop the killing. I asked them: Is your revolution for everyone? They answered yes. Then, I said, if the revolution is for everyone you cannot kill anyone.

Peace is possible in Colombia for everyone. Guerrillas and non-guerrillas. Everyone.

Plátano

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 19, 2005, 12:44:

Una preguntica Plantano, I respect your experience but how do you expect the Colombians or US to rescue these hostage when 1) they don't really know where they are, and 2) the FARC has shown great willingness to kill hostages during rescue attempts?

I don't think it's as simple as Rambo swinging down out of a chopper with a knife in his teeth.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 19, 2005, 12:54:

Una respuestica ... They don't know?

I thought the gringos had satellite surveillance of the entire planet so powerful they could read license plates off cars anywhere in the world. How could they not detect hundreds or thousands of people going back and forth taking supplies in and out of what must be a very large prison complex in Colombia? They also have heat detecting technology that does not depend upon visual photography. That's how the gringos could bomb the Viet Cong on the Ho Chi Minh trail under thick jungle foliage. Of course, the heat detection also ended up bombing a lot of innocent water buffalo. But in Colombia I think the body mass would be FARC body mass, not water buffalo. So, with all that high falutin' technology, you tellin' me the gringos don't know exactly where the prisoners are being held? How could they not know, especially now that gringos make up part of the kidnapped population in the jungle?

'splainme, please

:)

Plátano

P. D. Funny you should mention Rambo. The guerrillas have seen the Rambo movies and have been inspired by them. In a sense I was victim of the successful implementation of the Rambo mentality. FARC can do it, yet FFAA or USA Delta Forces can't? Confirms what I'm saying: FARC is winning this war. ¡QUEDAN IMPUNES EN LA SELVA, IMPUNES EN LA CIUDAD! El ejército colombiano no puede con ellos.

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 19, 2005, 14:51:

Easy to explain See, Platano, there are no license plates attached to the kidnapped, thus nothing to read.

No, really, you think if the gringos had precise, granular knowledge of where the hostages were, not to mention where such esteemed FARC VIPs as Mono Jojoy and Tirofijo, that something wouldn't be done about it?

Another question, when you were being held, did you wish for or fear an armed rescue attempt? Do you think one would have succeeded or would you have ended up a dead but rescued corpse?

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Mr. Hollywood says on Mar 19, 2005, 14:53:

Ahem "That's how the gringos could bomb the Viet Cong on the Ho Chi Minh trail under thick jungle foliage."

Uh, and you saw how that turned out in the long run.

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 19, 2005, 15:10:

Rescue Attempt and Fear The truth is I did fear a possible rescue attempt. And several times, when a FFAA patrol got too close, we would have to move to a new place. One day we moved and I was left being guarded by a guerrillera. Let me tell you... Colombia has the most beautiful guerrilleras in the world! I by no means wanted our alone time to be broken up by a possible rescue attempt. Balas perdidas.. that kind of stuff... can be dangerous, not to mention the balas that are intentionally sent to one's head.

Plátano, still dreaming about that beautiful guerrillera colombiana!

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kikiortiz11 says on Mar 19, 2005, 16:15:

Platano I dont believe that these people give their services to the FARC because of their simple support. It is because they know well if they dont help them in what the guerrillas ask of them they will be eliminated.. I dont know why you have such a shakesperean idea of this terrorist organization.. My cousin is a dentist and He was kidnapped one morning from his house and was forced to operate on one of the jefes outside of Cali. Under a FARC victory Colombia would become another Cuba. The leaders of the Farc are not of the people.. They are probably the richest in Colombia. They will set up their own little oligarchy and the rest of Colombia will suffer.. I respect you and your opinion and Im glad you are here to share it after actually being kidnapped but It seems to me that you are siding with the same people that kidnapped you.... Like you said If the revolution was for everyone then they would not be out there terrorizing the same people that they claim to be fighting for.... I am curious, What did they tell you when you said that they can not be killing people if the revolution is for everyone??

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

0 funny, 0 helpful.

platano says on Mar 19, 2005, 16:52:

Guerrilla reply to my inquiry They told me 17 families (what they call the oligarchy) run Colombia and are the cause of the misery. They said those capitalists must be eliminated or forced out for a redistribution of wealth, land reform, and an end to militarism in Colombia to be possible. They said the oligarchy is the class that is exploiting the poor in Colombia, killing the trade unionists, and maintaining their own elite status and power at the expense of the rest of the country.

I replied that power corrupts and that they would become equally corrupt once they got into power. (From what you have said it sounds like this has already happened). I pointed to one of their newspapers which showed a photo of their leaders (all men) at a gathering "in the mountains of Colombia" and I asked them if they believed in equality for women. They said yes. So then I asked why only women guerrilleras were preparing my food, not the men, and why were there no women in the photo of their leadership, and I pointed out the Colombian Congress who they claim is the "Colombian oligarchy" has more women representatives than the supposedly "revolutionary" guerrillas do. Well, that pissed them off and they angrily denounced me as "intransigente" and said my words could be used against me in a revolutionary trial.

In other words, they basically had no answer for my suggesting the revolution is not for all Colombians if they are going to kill some Colombians. And then they basically threatened to kill me if I continued to criticize their movement. So, I stopped criticizing, but they continued to see me as "intransigente" because I did not agree with their methods of achieving political change, because I did not agree with using violence.

Plátano, el intransigente

plátano

0 funny, 0 helpful.

kikiortiz11 says on Mar 19, 2005, 19:07:

Thanks Platano for sharing that with me.. This again shows me that their revolution neads to fail.. You came up with some great points about them having no women playing in any big roles.. And the way that they threatend you with a revolutionary trial is just a little taist of what we would see under a FARC Colombia.. We can never let them take power... In no way does their revolution follow the pure revolution on Karl Marx. They have totally lost their ideology. They are no longer for the people they are against us. THey stand for murdering us if we have different ideas to theirs. They stand for narcotraffic. They stand for extortion and they stand for terrorism and as far as I am concerned they dont have any voluntude for peace. I will continue to support Uribe in his hard line policy against the FARC. They represent the biggest threat to Colombia and the rest of the South America. Uribe 2006!!! El Presidente del Pueblo colombiano!

Kiki Ortiz-Matallana

0 funny, 0 helpful.

Lionheart says on Mar 19, 2005, 23:17:

I wouldn't compare to Cuba Cuba is more unique in the way it has established itself. I would rather look into the former Soviet Union for comparison. Karl Marx' original ideals were ploughed under fast. It was also ruled by a oligarchy, and still is if you look where the major string-pullers are today. The Russian Mafia leadership is a mix of the former oligarchy and the major KGB officers, not only holding former Russian territories in a firm grip, but they have also gotten the Western European organized crime scenery in a firm grip. Many concepts of the FARC have been applied in Russia as well, I would guess the FARC learned well from them. Luckily they have never reached the same level of power as in Russia.

0 funny, 0 helpful.