Ni chicha ni limoná

quindioman says on Aug 20, 2005, 03:04:

nice post Desi...I think i fit the criteria for a response.
As far as speaking spanish with parents, yes. In our house the lingua franca is spanish, everyone knows how to speak English but once the foot is through the door it's spanish all the way.
My Spanish right now is pretty bad, but I haven't lost my paisa accent, something that I get asked a lot when I'm in Cali..."ve vos sos Paisa?"
As far as travelling back, unfortunately I don't do it as often as I would like...since I was uprooted to this country in 83 I have gone back in 87, 90, 94, 98 and 2004..next trip has been postponed to Jan 06.
Do I listen to Colombian music? I listen to allsorts, but I know my mum likes to put on Besame FM...i love those classic love songs from the 70's, Camilo Sexto, Leo Dan, Los Pasteles Verdes and the like, my brother is a walking party, you know he's home because the salsa is blasting anything from Joe Arroyo to Grupo Niche and all in between....Cumbias are big in our house, and I have a soft spot for Vallenatos so latin american music is always being played round here.
Do we dance salsa, cumbia vallenatos? Desi...we have the most tolerant neighbours ever...the amount of house parties my mum has hosted is unbeliavable...she even hired a band for one of my birthdays....they played some cumbias, porros and vallenatos....very, very good! The noise pollution gets pretty high but we've never had a neighbour complain....guess they must like the music!
How do i feel about being Colombian? hmmmmmm....let me quote James Brown....

Whoa-oa-oa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now
I feel good, I knew that I would, now
So good, so good, I got you

Whoa! I feel nice, like sugar and spice
I feel nice, like sugar and spice
So nice, so nice, I got you

{ sax, two licks to bridge }

When I hold you in my arms
I know that I can't do no wrong
and when I hold you in my arms
My love won't do you no harm

and I feel nice, like sugar and spice
I feel nice, like sugar and spice
So nice, so nice, I got you

{ sax, two licks to bridge }

When I hold you in my arms
I know that I can't do no wrong
and when I hold you in my arms
My love can't do me no harm

and I feel nice, like sugar and spice
I feel nice, like sugar and spice
So nice, so nice, I got you

Whoa! I feel good, I knew that I would, now
I feel good, I knew that I would
So good, so good, I got you
So good, so good, I got you
So good, so good, I got you
HEY!!

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quindioman says on Aug 20, 2005, 03:15:

desi have your kids ever been to Colombia..?

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 20, 2005, 03:48:

sugar'n spice:) quindioman, it was your previous post that I thought of when I started this one so of course, you fit perfectly the description. One question: are both of your parents Colombian-born? Do you think it makes a difference?

Yes, my kids have been back in Cali several times after we left but only once since we moved to Sweden. (from the States) and that was a long time ago (about ten years). They're in their twenties now. We do speak Spanish occasionally with each other, but they speak only English to each other and Swedish at their jobs and when there are Swedes around. Culturally they're pretty much mainstream, except after a couple of beers at the corner pub...then they call me and ask me for the lyrics of Oh Gloria Imarcesible.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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quindioman says on Aug 20, 2005, 06:55:

desi all my parents are colombian. My bilogical dad (RIP) played away from home with my mum and I was the result...hell even my (step)dad is Colombian as well, not from Armenia but from Calarca, Quindio.
I don't think this makes much difference...I think it would make more difference if 1 parent was from another country as the child will learn to appreciate the best of 2 different cultures. This pretty much is what happens when Colombians emigrate from their country of birth.

Trying to transmit the culture to the kids......hmmmm.....I have my own take on this....I remember when I was 15-16, I didn't have much interest in Colombia (apart from the football team)...I didn't really start thinking about the culture until I came back from Colombia last year...suddenly I wanted to be more "Colombian"...you start by reading G G Marquez in Spanish (as it was originally intended) instead of English...finding out about Colombian artists etc.
I met a Colombian last year from a small pueblo (Victoria) in El Valle...he's happy here in London, he's been here no more than 4 years but when I asked him about Colombia he was very indifferent...turns out he has no interests in going back...he enjoys himself too much in London and has no time even for salsa clubs, preferring to frequent London's West End Theatres....each to his own I guess

PS: Juanes is not lame...tell your son he needs to be seen by the music doctors :-P

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 20, 2005, 08:14:

I've been trying to get my kids to read Garcia Marquez (in any language) but I don't think they read a lot of books. Most kids/young adults here read almost nothing nowadays. It's the PC, music/clubbing scene, films on DVD and such that keep them busy. We did watch María Full of Grace together at my daughter's initiative; had it come from me I doubt they'd been interested.

I've met so many young adults like you that have been back in Colombia, re-discovered their roots and become totally fascinated by the country of their birth. But not my kids. I can't even make them go back to Colombia to visit.

I guess I'll just have to shove some plane tickets in their hands and off with them to Cali. Maybe they'll get inspired to invest more emotional and intellectual capital on their home country too.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 20, 2005, 09:38:

Kids are idiots, Desi. I love them and I enjoy being around them but there's a lot of stuff that flies right over their heads. I think eventually they'll come around but it may take some time.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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genove says on Aug 20, 2005, 09:56:

no need to try Desi -

My mother is Colombian and my father is not, I was born in the US. I am bilingual (Spanish fluent) but we grew up speaking only English at home. I do travel often to Colombia, staying there for summer breaks. That is where I learned to speak Spanish and about Colombian culture/food etc.

I grew up in an area where we were the only Hispanics so latin culture/food was not a part of my everyday life. Your tastes/influences has more to do about the location of where you grow up and friends you make than your parents. I think you said that your kids are pretty much mainstream, swede.

I do not have feel like I have a double identity, I am an American first and when I go back to Colombia I am always called a gringo.

Now times have changed and there are Hispanics, Indians, Asians, Africans, West Indian, East Europeans in the area so I am learning more than just about Colombian culture. Its all about globalization now.

Young people in Colombia are listening less to cumbia, salsa and vallenato. You should visit some Latin/Hispanic web portals and see what young kids are into maybe you can forward links to your kids.

Its all about electronica, rap, modern rock or reggaeton whether in Spanish, English, any language. Just like in North America or Europe.

genove

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 20, 2005, 10:26:

I've been doing that I've been directing them to Colombian/Latin web sites, but they don't always even bother to check them out. I've had my son sit here in front of my computer reading this forum together with me and ponting out that there are lots of young people around his age who read and participate in these discussions and he thought this was great but did he ever visit the site again...not. He laughed his head off for elmo's outrageous posts but he doesn't feel the sense of belonging.

They were both born in Cali, caleño dad and we moved away when they were 5 and 6. They identify themselves as Colombians, not Swedes. Yet their interests and lifestyles have almost nothing to do with Latino/Colombian culture. I'm the only one in the family who wears a pulsera guajira!

Of course, there's nothing wrong with being a mainstream Swede either. If that what it takes to make them happy. I just think it's a pity they don't feel more of their cultural heritage. They don't have any Colombian friends, except one young man who was adopted here when he was just a baby and he doesn't even speak Spanish. They have one more half-Colombian friend (mother's a Finn like myself) but they don't hang out either, and when they meet they speak Swedish to each other.

Yes, utopia, that's pretty much my feelings too. It has just taken much more time for them to come around than what I expected.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Aug 20, 2005, 12:00:

My Experience.. My parents are both Colombian. We moved to Canada at the age of 10, my sister was 7.


Have you always spoken Spanish with your Colombian parent/parents? -- Always. I have never said a word in English to my mom or dad, it would feel so awkward. Basically the way it always worked was that as soon as we set foot through the door of our house, we were in Colombia. Colombian customs, Colombian Spanish, Colombian family values. Because we spent a fair amount of time in Colombia, we always felt nothing but (eventhough my sister was born in Toronto during one of our brief stays here in the early days). All of our close family friends have always been colombian.
Initially the culture shock was very great for me. I had a hard time coping with the different influences from outside and inside. I even had a phase when I felt like I was being pulled in two different directions. Sometimes I felt like I wasn't accepted anywhere. I used to get picked on by the Canadian kids because I was (am) latina, but some latino kids from central america and Ecuador used to call me "whitey" because I could easily pass for a European in terms of my features and skin. I guess back then people were too ignorant to realize that latinos come in every color, ranging from nordic looking blondes to Ugandan looking blacks. The stereotypical latino in those days was the short, Aztec looking Mexican. If you fell outside of that realm, you were considered an anomaly. Had I grown up in New York or Miami where there are more people from places where a significant percentage of the population is caucasian looking like Colombia, Costa Rica, Venezuela, Puerto Rico, Cuba and Argentina, I guess I wouldn't have felt like such a freaking outcast.


Today, my sister and I are very involved with the Colombian community projects here in Toronto, everybody recognizes us as the sisters from Manizales, some people are in shock when they find out that we have been here for eons because we are just so Colombian.


How's your Spanish right now? -- My spanish is perfect. My accent is paisa, but not as heavy as those paisas that really emphasize the "SHHH" sound and sing when they talk. My written Spanish is good, but it is not at an academic level like my english because I didn't attend secondary and tertiary school in colombia! Anytime I pick up a novel, I try to read Colombian or Spanish literature. I already had all the Canadian literature shoved down my throat in high school (brilliant Canadian works I might add, I just can't identify with Margaret Laurence the way I do with Gabriel Garcia Marquez).

Do you travel back to Colombia frequently? -- Not as frequently as I would like!!

Do you listen to Colombian music? -- I listen to Latin Music. When I was young I went through a phase when I did not listen to latin music, but I outgrew it. Today, I have a great collection of just about any kind of Latino music out there whether it be rock, baladas, vallenato, chirimia... salsa. You name it.

Do you dance salsa, cumbia, vallenato? -- Yes. I was never taught how to dance, but I guess it is in the blood, my father is pretty good on the dance floor. The steps just came naturally, I am not a "great" dancer, but I feel the music and I never took lessons.

How do you feel about being Colombian (of Colombian ancestry)? --- It was the luck of the draw. I was born in Colombia. Being raised back in col really has a lot to do with who I am today. I have beautiful memories of being brought up there. If I had to do it all over again, I would not for one minute hesitate to be born from Colombian parents in a place like Manizales or Medellin. That would be my first pick if I was lining up at the reincarnation counter. God might give me a weird look, offer me to be born to a weathly German family, but I am just too damn content to be who I am to actually change it. Sometimes you just need to have some hardships to add a bit of spice to your life. Just ask the many PBH posters, who leave the comfort of their first world homes to venture to Colombia time after time. That country gives people something that can't be put into words, just an intangible joie de vivre and I am honored to call it "mi tierra".

Un beso para Colombia, otro beso para el lindo Canada.

I hope I didn't bore you to tears Desi.

Abrazos

Colombiche

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 20, 2005, 12:28:

thank you, Colombiche for answering my call; no, you didn't bore me at all, this is just the kind of stuff I wanted to know. Obviously there are just too many variables here to make a rule about how well the bi-cultural heritage may be carried on by the second generation.

I'd think it does make a difference if both parents were Colombian and if Spanish was always, consistently like in your case, spoken at home. Also the geographical distance from Colombia and if there's a sizable Latin community in the area of residence. For me it feels as I'd been fighting against the windmills.

Abrazos,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 20, 2005, 12:30:

Keep on jousting, Dona Quixote!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Aug 20, 2005, 13:02:

In the case of your children I guess the greatest challenges to keeping a colombian idetity are the following:

1) They are living in an area where the Colombian influence is probably scarce if not nil.

2) Their mother speaks the language of the country fluently so they can speak that language with the mother. (Does the father too?)

3) They have Scandinavian blood, so they feel very much at home in Sweden, they feel some sort of blood ties to the land??? (I don't know if this is true, I don't know how close the ties between Finns and Swedes are)

4) They were 5 and 6 when they moved. Still young enough to totally suck up the culture of the host country in many cases.

Why don't you take a family vacation down to colombia, and do a little tour down memory lane, take them to places they frequented as children in colombia? That might spark some deeply buried feelings of attachment to the land. who knows?

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 20, 2005, 13:35:

Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 20, 2005, 14:29:

adri, thank you for all the insight you've given me in your open-hearted reply. I'd imagine that my children find themselves pretty much in the same dilemma as you do about the split identity. I asked my son once (he was studying in London at the time) what does he say when people ask him where he's from. He said "In one long sentence, without even breathing I say: I was born in Colombia of a Colombian father and a Finnish mother, I have lived and gone to school in the States and in Sweden, I'm a dual citizen of Colombia and Sweden and now I'm a Londoner".

Neither of them look typically Colombian, being very white and blue-eyed; my daughter has a long, blonde hair and my son has brown hair. They are a bit shorter than the average Swedes; otherwise there's absolutely nothing that distinguishes them from not being from here. They have never had to endure any kind of discrimination in school or work life and had always been able easily to adapt in the new environments. Not entiry true, though, for my daughter has an enourmous handicap of not wanting to accept new surroundings, new cultures, new languages. Or had, when younger. Right now she feels well-adjusted and happy here in Sweden and her only gripe is about people making fun of her because she says she's Catholic and a believer. Also because her long-time partner is not planning to get married, ever. He loves her very much and is totally dedicated to her but will not marry.

They always identify themselves as Colombians with a Finnish mother. They are proud of their heritage, absolutely. Funny about the dancing gene skipping a generation, though. I can't dance to save my life and neither did their father. My kids love dancing but not Latin type, no cumbias or vallenatos.

An addtional handicap for the cultural and language point of view is that they speak English with me, except when we're alone and I insist on Spanish. My son is more comfortable with Spanish and speaks it often at his job too with his Chilean workmates. My daughter is totally embarrassed about speaking Spanish even when she can carry a decent conversation in the language of her birth.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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adrimm (☼Travelguide writer) says on Aug 20, 2005, 14:46:

Mr. Hollywood says on Aug 20, 2005, 15:13:

Great I think it's great that you're so interested in maintaining your kids' connection to their birthplace. They'll come around to it eventually.

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coloradoc says on Aug 21, 2005, 01:47:

I Feel You Wow, this hits so close to him. I am a 24 colombian born, american raised, navy enlisted male living in Greece. Here are some answers to your questions. And by the way thank you for asking them.

I have always spoken spanish with my mother and father. As someone in an earlier post said it would be weird to speak to them in english. My spanish right now is very good, as a matter of fact almost as good as my english. When I was 13 I spoke it well but not as well as I liked so I started speaking spanish to whoever would speak it back. Alot of the kids I grew up with were 2nd generation colombian, cuban, puerto rican, etc. and they did not help me very much so I used my mother, their parents and my cousins to help me out. I have not been to colombia since I was eight. It is funny, I paid for my 12 year old brother to visit Itagui this summer (where all of our family is from) and he loved it so much I was actually jealous of him, lol. All I listen to now is Colombian music. I can't stop playing Carlos Vives or Juanes as well as Charlie Zaa's earlier Sentimientos. As I got into my later teen years I really hit a period where I wanted to listen to more Colombian music and I ended up liking it more than any other music I had been listening to. Can't get enough Vallenato's!!! I really hate to be conceited, but my father and mother's dance jean hit me like a mack truck!! LoL!! I can dance all night and dance well. No dance lessons here, lol!!! The toughest question is the final one. Not tough in the fact that I don't know, but the fact that it is tough to put in words. The smile I got when Colombia pulled into fifth in qualifying for the World Cup (Go Cafeteros!!!!). The crazy feeling of joy when I got a care package from my sister filled with colombian treats: Masarepa, pan de bono mix, a Colombian soccer jersey, a Pilsen hat that I will wear proudly and some panela to feed my agua panela addiction, lol!!!

Hopefully those answers offer up something of what you were looking for. By the way, this is my first post but I had to reply. Thanks for the opportunity.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 21, 2005, 06:04:

good post, coloradoc As a second-generation Colombian with both parents Colombian you have the latino joie d'vivre in your genes and had the benefit of growing up in a community where the latino traditions and customs were not a novelty but rather the norm. Treat yourself a holiday of a month or two in Colombia; you'd enjoy it.

My mistake was probably accepting that my kids spoke English with me from quite an early age. I should've been tougher on them insisting on that Spanish-only at home rule. I chose to be comfortable instead in an environment where we all were learning a new language (Swedish) and since my kids don't speak my native language (Finnish) at all I guess I just thought they'd learn Swedish first and maybe Finnish later and I didn't want things get too complicated at that time.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 21, 2005, 06:05:

UC and Hollywood, thanks for the encouragement.
Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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kernow62 says on Aug 21, 2005, 08:41:

Very good thread Desi. As I am not Colombian I will just offer a few tips, take them for what they are, just possible suggestions.

Firstly what type of music do they listen to? I mean the genre. It is quite possible that something Colombian will be in the same genre, there is quite a good progressive music scene. Just track down a few CDs and start playing them when the kids are around, see if they show any interest. Although it is not Colombian there is also a great music scene in Mexico and Spain, some of the Spanish stuff is very much Colombian based.

If you want to PM me I can perhaps offer a few CD choices, heck I'll even send you a few MP3s if you like, so you can try before you buy.

I had absolutely no interest in my culture when younger, but after going back home for the umpteenth time it suddenly bit me. I even went so far as to seriously study the Cornish language which is not the least bit useful, I did it because it made me feel closer to my roots. I say give them time, keep the Spanish flowing around the house, keep the Colombian food simmering away, and eventually they will come around, IMHO.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 21, 2005, 10:36:

Gee, kernow I'm a little embarrassed but I don't even know what my son listens to any longer. He has been into bass'n drums (???I think, something like that), techno, all kinds of weird avant-garde stuff that doesn't sound like music to me at all. He says he never listens to the lyrics, it's the rythm that matters...my daughter is more rock'n roll (one of her favorites is Joan Osbourne). Her boyfriend plays in a death metal band called Pandemonic (they have been playing forever, but have only released a couple of demos). In spite of all that scary imagery they are not demon worshippers or anything like that, such a bunch of old-school heavy metal guys with long hair. Go figure out.

Neither of them lives at home any longer, but every time I can get hold on some fresh, good green platanos it's sancocho time at Mum's!

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 21, 2005, 10:53:

yeah, I tried that tinto didn't work. He said he was not a neanderthal. That he wasn't interested in silicones or mafia princesses or shallow women, not his type. He likes strong, fiery, intelligent women (especially readheads), believes in equality and liberated women.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Estefania says on Aug 22, 2005, 07:35:

My parents are both from Barranquilla, and came to New York about 25 yrs ago and im 21. In my house it was a MUST to speak Spanish at home. I think spainsh speaking parents that dont make there children speak spanish are doing a wrong to there children. KNowing more than one language is an advantage and this is something parents should teahc to htier children even if they dont want to. I remember when i was younger..my mom used to tell us " espanol en la casa", "Ingles en el colegio" , and thats how it was. If we ever spoke to my mom in english she would yell at us.
As far as going back to Colombia...i go every yr and sometimes i used to go twice a yr. I love Colombia and would like to live there one day. AS far as the way i speka it now..i think its good....not the very best, but alot of ppl think i was born there b/c u cant notice it. I write in spanish as well but sometimes get confused with the g's and j's and accent marks only because i dont practice it often enough , and may now know some words, but i try to read and write to ebtter it. I speak alot with my friends in spanish and on msn with my cousins in COlombia to better it...and i always ask my friends to correct me if im wrong.
As for Culture...I LOVE THE CULTURE...THE MUSIC... the ppl everything. I grew up listening to Carlos Vives, Joe arroyo, Grupo Niche, everything there is to hear in Colombia..and used to dance with my uncles and cousins. My whole family loves to dance and i dance everything there is to dance in Colombia. I used to be part of a Colombian folk group called " Estampas Negras" , and i loved it...and may i emntion i Miss it very much. Dancing in that u not only learn the dances, but the culture, and believe it or not the history and region of where that music is from. Each dance has its own movements according to its location, coastal, andinal, etc. I dance Mapale, Cumbia, Joropo, Bambuco, Guavina, Currulao...etc. I know most of the dances in Colombia..and i think everything is beautiful. I really dont understand when ppl put down colombia because we are one of the most culturally rich countries, with dances and movements of all kinds. I think maybe u should take ur kids to shows and concerts. Evrytime i go to a show to see a dance..and i hear those drums ...my eyes water...because it brings me back memoreies of Colombia...and I WASNT EVEN BORN There....but i think i was just born here by accident !!;)
Colombia es un pais relindo, con un poco de todo. Ensenale mas la cultura a tus hijos para que llegen a apreciar la cultura de alla...mandalos a colombia en los veranos para que veas como cambian. Mi mama siempre me mandaba de Junio- Septiembre....y nunc me queria regresar. Si fuera por mi....viviera alla..solo que tengo que terminar mi carrera. Pero te aseguro..en cuanto encuentre un trabajo y viaje a espana....viviera en Colombia. Ese es mi Sueno....COLOMBIA MI TIERRA QUERIDA!!! NADA COMPARA CON ELLA!

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2005, 08:15:

You would not believe the number of people in San Antonio who can speak Spanish but their children cannot. In fact I don't know any Latinos here whose children CAN speak Spanish. They are not doing them any favors that's for sure. Meanwhile my youngest stepchild, now in the 5th grade, has been officially declared bilingual. She wants to move on to French and Italian now.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Aug 22, 2005, 09:20:

yes, utopia that's something I noticed when I was teaching school in USA. Not San Antonio, but Chicago and in Florida I met an amazingly large number of children with names like Carmen Rodriguez, 7 years of age or Carlos Garcia, 6 years of age and no word of Spanish would come out of their little mouths. They didn't understand a word of Spanish! It made me upset to think that a Latino child would grow up with a total lack of cultural identity: it's the language more than anything else that carries on the cultural inheritance, identity and tradition.

I commented this to my gringo brother and he said:" Listen, sis, the sooner your kids forget their Spanish the better for them". I didn't think so and my kids grew up being bilingual, now tri-lingual. Funny thing is that my brother's youngest just married a Mexican girl...who speaks almost no English:)

Cheers,
Desi

BTW. Estefania; great post.

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Colombiche says on Aug 22, 2005, 10:16:

I see a lot of Latino Children Here in Canada That don't speak Spanish. They look Latino, their last names are Perez, Gomez, Rodriguez and they speak no Spanish. My friend's daughter is 6 yrs old and does not speak a word of Spanish, eventhough she has 100% Guatemalan blood. I think that is a shame. The day I have children, if they are born here in North America, they will hear nothing but Spanish from me. They will pick up Engish at school like sponges, kids are sponges, they learn too fast. Nowadays, there is nothing fancy about being bilingual, I am so ashamed of only being fluent in Spanish and English, I am studying Portuguese as I speak.

I wonder if there are any native Portuguese speakers on this forum who need to perfect their Spanish. If there is, I'll help you with your written Spanish you help me with my written Portuguese!!!! I'm even flirting with the idea of a job opening in Brazil.


Ciao

C.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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marcos66 says on Aug 22, 2005, 10:21:

Colombia en Toronto Hi Colombiche;
I grew up in Sincelejo and left with my parents about 25 years ago.
I am living in toronto and was looking for some colombian/latin culture. I left when i was 13 and i am looking to discover some colombiam flavor here in Toronto. If you can recommend some Colombian/latin restaurants that would be GREAT!!
Thanks so much,
Marcos66.

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platano says on Aug 22, 2005, 12:35:

UTC, A Joke for you Two Iranians meet in Miami. One starts to greet the other in Farsi, the language of their native country. The other Iranian waved him away contemptuously and said, 'We're in America now. Speak Spanish!'

plátano

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Colombiche says on Aug 22, 2005, 13:12:

Hello Marcos My personal favourite is Arrieros on 276 JANE ST, North of Bloor street. The food is good and the prices are great. There is also a BAkery called Columbus bakery, on Dufferin a few block south of Lawrence, amazing colombian food, mostly baked goods and chorizos and arepas, patacones....to go. A few more places:

Mi Tierra 416 654-8886 828 St. Clair Ave. W. (entre Christie y Oakwood)

Pollos a la brasa Mario 647 436 1889 1988 eglinton ave west

Cafe Las Americas 416 246 9911 2260 Keele St. Toronto, ON M6M 3Z8 - Primer semaforo al sur de Lawrence

La Paisa 416-787-1330 1520 St Clair Ave West

Bagel Flame Bakery 905 841 8766 128 Wellington St, Unit 108, Wellington Plaza, Aurora

There is also Los Arrieros on Wilson avenue on the North side, not a bad place either, between Dufferin and Bathurst.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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Colombiche says on Aug 22, 2005, 13:15:

There is also a Peruvian Restaurant Called El Bodegon, on College and Euclid, it is a must go. Delicious food.

There is a latino plaza on Finch and Milvan, it has a food court with Colombian, peruvian, Mexican, Guatemalan and Ecuadoran restaurants. The place is a bit ghetto, but the food is so darn good it is worth the visit.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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utopiacowboy says on Aug 22, 2005, 13:55:

Now that was amusing, Platano.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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marcos66 says on Aug 24, 2005, 06:43:

Thanks Colombiche Thanks so much I look forward to enjoying every bite!
Marcos66.

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 19, 2007, 00:39:

More about chicha..does anybody else but me like that stuff? GOLD OF THE AQLLAKUNA
The Story of Chicha
By Bill Ridgely

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(Written for BarleyCorn, May 1994, All Rights Reserved.)

Reproduced with permission of the author.


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The year was 1516 A.D. The western world was rising from the ashes of the dark ages. In Germany, the Elector of Bavaria proclaimed the Reinheitsgebot, the world's first beer purity law, which allowed for only water, malted barley, later malted wheat, and hops to be used in brewing (Yeast, of course, was taken for granted). The Reinheitsgebot was necessary because German brewers had begun using questionable ingredients (including animal parts) in their beer, resulting in a somewhat deleterious effect on the public health.

Experimentation in brewing hadn't begun in Germany, however. Beer (by broad definition any fermented beverage made from grain) already had a long and colorful history as one of mankind's oldest beverages. Nearly every culture, with the exception of the Eskimo & the Australian aborigine, had extracted sugar from grains and produced at least one alcoholic beverage.

From earliest times, these beverages were viewed as safe & nutritious supplements to the everyday diet, but they were also seen as gateways to the universe inhabited by the gods. Unlike modern society, where altering of consciousness is perceived as an attempted escape from reality, most pre-industrial cultures viewed intoxication as a genuinely religious experience.

Much was happening in the world at the time of the Reinheitsgebot. In South America, an extraordinary culture with a very different brewing tradition was just reaching its apex. A highly advanced agricultural and engineering society, it lacked a written language and knowledge of the wheel, but it extended its influence to well over half a continent.

The Inca Empire (Tawantinsuyu to its inhabitants, literally "Unity of Four Parts") was consolidated in the year 1438, when a Cuzco-based confederacy led by Pachakuti Inka Yupanki defeated the Chanka tribe of the north and took control of an area comprising modern-day Ecuador, Peru, Bolivia, half of Chile, and the northwest corner of Argentina.

It all lasted barely 100 years. By 1521, Hernando Cortez had conquered Mexico and unleashed a plague of diseases that quickly spread through the continent. The Inca king Wayna Qhapaq and at least a third of his subjects were killed by smallpox in 1525. The war of succession launched by the king's surviving sons resulted in the deaths of thousands more. By the time Francisco Pizarro and his "army" of 30 conquistadors arrived in 1532, there was little left to conquer. The last Inca ruler, Atau Wallpa, was put to death in 1533 shortly after Pizarro ordered his weight in gold and silver as ransom for his release (a promise, like many others made by the Spanish, never fulfilled).

Despite its short existance, the Inca empire made great strides in agricultural engineering and high-altitude food preservation. Two crops became food staples - potatoes (which were developed in the Andes), and maize (corn).

Fresh potatoes were cut in pieces and laid on rooftops, exposed to the freezing temperatures of the Andean night followed by the warmth and dryness of the day. The resulting product was called ch'unu (ch'oonyu), the first "freeze-dried" food. It could be stored indefinitely and transported easily, and it was a primary energy source of the "runners" who transported goods and information along the vast system of high-altitude roadways connecting the empire.

Maize served as the raw material for a fermented beverage that came to be valued as highly as gold, a beverage that played a key role in the economics of the empire. It was called aqa (a'kha) in Quechua, the language of the high Andes, and kusa (koo'sa) in Aymara, the language of the altiplano and low country. The Spaniards called it chicha, a word derived from the Spanish "chichal", meaning "saliva" or "to spit".

The name comes from the beer's early method of production. Andean people for centuries had found saliva to be an effective means for converting starches in grains to fermentable sugars. This discovery likely dated from the earliest times of grain cultivation, although the exact nature of the process (amylolytic enzymes found in saliva), was not identified until the last century.

Beers made from salivated roots and grains had been brewed in Central and South America long before the time of the Incas. The people of the Amazon basin brewed a beer called masato from dried, roasted and chewed manioc root a thousand years before the conquest. Other indigenous beers were brewed from salivated quinoa, algaroba (seeds of the carob tree), and various fruits and vegetables.

Maize beer, however, came to occupy a special place in the Inca economic system because it served as a direct medium of exchange. This may seem strange to us living in a market-oriented society, where money is used to purchase goods and services. The Incas had no money. Instead, they developed the exchange of labor for all necessities of life. Each citizen devoted part of the year to working on state projects (building roads, terraces, irrigation systems, and administrative centers), part to working on religious projects (building temples and monuments), and part to agriculture. Similarly, all food produced was distributed partly to the state (for storage in time of famine), partly to the gods (in support of the priesthood), and partly to the local community (for everyday needs). This highly-efficient system allowed for major state projects to be accomplished while food was distributed equitably and abundantly to everyone.

Performance of mit'a was largely paid in the form of the two staple foods, ch'unu and chicha. Both were produced on a very large scale in state-owned facilities.

Brewing was done entirely by women, primarily the Aqllakuna (Akh'yakuna) or "Chosen Women" of the king (sometimes referred to as the Mamakuna or "Virgins of the Sun"). These women labored in buildings distributed over a wide area of a typical Inca administrative center. At the height of the empire, very little chicha was still brewed from salivated corn (called muko) because the process was extremely labor-intensive. Malted corn (called jora) largely replaced salivated corn by the end of the 15th century. The process of malting had been developed over a long period, and Inca rulers understood the economic reality that large-scale production required the most efficient process.

Modern archaeologists recently examined the ancient remains of a single brew in the Inca administrative city of Manchan (1). Based on the quantity of spent grain discovered in a disposal pit, it was estimated than an average brew comprised a little over 5 hectoliters (500 liters) of finished chicha, not far removed from the average daily output of a small modern brewpub or microbrewery. Assuming an estimated consumption of 3 liters of chicha per day by the average citizen, this single brew would have met the daily needs of close to 170 people. And this was from a single brewery in a city largely devoted to brewing! One begins to see the huge role that chicha played in the everyday lives and affairs of these people.

Shortly after the Spanish conquest, production and consumption of chicha was banned by the Catholic church, and the large-scale indigenous brewing industry disappeared. However, the craft did not die entirely because the beer had come to occupy a major role in the religious observances and special events of the Andean people. It simply became dispersed as a cottage industry at the village level, where it remains to this day.

Little was known to the modern world about the techniques of chicha brewing until the mid-20th century. Two botanists from Harvard University, Hugh Cutler and Martin Cardenas, visited the Cochabamba area of Bolivia in 1947 and observed chichamakers at work. The result of their observations was the most definitive study to date of the procedures and ingredients used to brew the beer (2). The recent writings of beer anthropologist Alan Eames brought the observations up to date and highlighted significant changes over the last half century (3).

The basic ingredient of chicha is still maize (corn), and several types are used throughout the Andes. A popular one is chuspillo, a yellow, many-rowed sweet corn. Another is culli, a cherry-red to nearly black corn, which makes a chicha with a rich, burgundy color. Uchukilla, a small-eared white corn found mostly at elevations over 8,000 feet, makes a very light-colored chicha. All varieties make chicha of very high quality.

At the time of the Harvard study, some chicha was still being made from muko or salivated flour, which was produced by first drying the corn and then grinding it into a flour-like meal. The meal was moistened and rolled into balls which were popped in the mouth until well mixed with saliva. The salivated corn balls were then pressed against the upper palate to flatten them, removed from the mouth, and dried in the sun. Muko commanded a high price in the market place because of the high quality of chicha it produced.

Very little muko was still being used for brewing, however. Most chicha was being brewed from germinated or malted corn called jora. To make jora, whole kernel dried corn was soaked overnight in a large earthen vessel, called a wirki. It was then removed, spread out on leaves to a depth of 4 or 5 inches, and covered with blankets to germinate. When shoots reached an inch or two in length, the jora was spread out on a blanket in the sun to dry.

The actual process of brewing was a multi-day event requiring the full attention of the chichamaker and her assistants. On the first day, the muko or jora (sometimes in combination) was ground, placed into the wirki, and covered with hot, but not boiling water. The mash was mixed thoroughly, then allowed to settle and cool for about an hour. The liquid portion (now called upi (oo'pi)) was removed with a gourd and placed in another wirki. More hot water was then added to the honchi (corn residue) in the pot, and this in turn was drawn off and added to the previously extracted upi. The upi was then left to stand for a full day and night, during which time it acquired a lactic infection which produced the characteristic sourness of the final product.

On the third day, the upi was transferred to a perol (cookpot) for the boil. This was always done late at night so that Mamasara, the corn goddess, would intercede and provide good luck to the brewers and strength to the beer. The upi was boiled for 3 hours, at the end of which time spices (traditionally allspice, anise, cinnamon, cloves, fennel, mace, mint, or any combination) were added to the pot. The liquid was then transferred back to the wirki to cool. In season, strawberries were often added to make frutillada, a beverage which Alan Eames described as "the holy grail of beers".

Today, time and economic constraints of 20th century life have induced chicha-makers to eliminate the mashing and souring step entirely and proceed directly to the boil. The crushed jora (called huinapu) and water are placed in the perol and slowly brought to a boil. Some conversion of starches takes place during the transition phase, but extra sugar is always added in the form of chancaca (unrefined Andean cane sugar with a taste and consistency similar to English treacle) and malta (a dark, sweet malt beverage with little or no alcohol content, similar to German malzbier). At the end of the 3-hour boil, the honchi is strained from the liquid by pouring the contents of the pot slowly through a reed basket.

Once the liquid has cooled, the sediment from a previous batch is pitched, along with a traditional bit of burning charcoal to propitiate evil spirits. Fermentation takes place over 3 to 6 days, and the chicha is generally drunk before fermentation has completed. It is believed that the beer will gain strength if kept underground for a long period of time. A little clove, cinnamon, or cilantro is often sprinkled on top at serving time.

Chicha is cloudy, tart and rather cidery. It takes its color from the color of the corn used, and its frothy head comes from release of CO2 during the incomplete fermentation. Chicha also shows some complexity from the spices and sugars added to it.

Although chicha is occasionally consumed in the home and often served at social and religious events, it is mostly consumed in the chicharia or "chicha bar". The availability of fresh chicha is announced by the aqa llantu (ak'ha yontu) or "chicha flag", a broomstick usually decorated with flowers, ribbons, and corn husks. More sophisticated chicharias have ornate signs announcing the beer's availability.

It is traditional to flick chicha toward the ground in the four directions of the compass before drinking. This is in respect for Pachamama, the earth goddess. Chicha is also sprinkled on domestic animals, on wounds, and on graves as a final salute to the deceased.

Chicha survives as an indigenous beer, and hopes are that it will continue to be brewed by enterprising Andean women for centuries to come. The secrets of chichamaking have been handed down from mother to daughter in a long standing oral tradition, and more chicha is being produced and enjoyed today than anytime over the last century. So let's raise our glasses to this ancient beverage and say, along with the people of the Andes, "Tomasunchis" - let's drink together! "


Cheers,
Desi






"Soy el que siempreanda de noche en el vecindario, sé cuando ladra el perro, sé cuando canta el gallo sé cuando estan dormidos los muchachos de mi barrio..." (From the joropo "El pajarillo")

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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Monpirri says on Jan 19, 2007, 17:26:

chicha is a good drink I do! I like chicha but chicha colombiana because I have tried chicha mora from Peru and it tastes almost like a fruit drink.
Every time I have a chance to go to Colombia I look for it. Some people or maybe some relatives give me the cold shoulder when I ask them where I can find some good chicha, they rather would love to hear me say where do I find a bottle of coca cola or a bottle of champagne.
I like chicha when they add slices of pineaple to it.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 19, 2007, 17:33:

I think champus

that popular fruit drink in Cali is basically the same thing, but fruitier and not fermented.

Cheers,
Desi

"Soy el que siempreanda de noche en el vecindario, sé cuando ladra el perro, sé cuando canta el gallo sé cuando estan dormidos los muchachos de mi barrio..." (From the joropo "El pajarillo")

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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billyb says on Jan 19, 2007, 19:35:

I've drunk chicha and it tasted like crap.... but the again, I was just a kid and maybe my, now, more sofisticated taste buds might enjoy it.

BillyB

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Monpirri says on Jan 20, 2007, 03:58:

Desi "I think champus that popular fruit drink in Cali is basically the same thing, but fruitier and not fermented."
I am talking about chicha de maiz or maybe is chicha de piña they keep it in a olla de barro for days. I like it because is fermented.

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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Desideria (Moderator) (Trustee board) says on Jan 20, 2007, 06:50:

yes, I know it's not the same thing, it's just that they have basically the same ingredients, corn, a fruit or two and added sugar in form of melao or panela. Chicha is fermented and has a bit of a sour taste while its "cousin" champus is more acid (all that wonderful lulo in it!)

Cheers,
Desi

"Soy el que siempreanda de noche en el vecindario, sé cuando ladra el perro, sé cuando canta el gallo sé cuando estan dormidos los muchachos de mi barrio..." (From the joropo "El pajarillo")

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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