My trip to Barranquilla

utopiacowboy says on Oct 29, 2005, 17:40:

It's always great to read the account of one's first time in Colombia. Brings back memories. Sounds like you had a wonderful time, Senor!

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Monpirri says on Oct 29, 2005, 21:32:

Love conquers all cultural barriers This is a truly beautiful story. It teaches us how to be brave pioneers when visiting our soulmate for the first time in a foreign country.
Wish you more favorites moments in your future journey to magical and charming Colombia.

Thanks for sharing it!!

The life spam of a taste bud is ten days

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BAQ says on Oct 29, 2005, 21:57:

It only gets better Well, first let me say WELCOME TO COLOMBIA. Now that you have had your first experience, you will better understand what some of us write hahahahahah

Glad you had a great time. All I can say is the NEXT TIME you are here, it will be even better. You will be over your first time jitters, more acustom to things and more relaxed.

Again, glad you enjoyed your trip !!!!!!

Semper Fidelis !

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adrimm says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:23:

Hiccup

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adrimm says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:24:

Tsk tsk Although I am delighted you had a nice (and safe) trip, I admit I was concerned when I read this:

"None of them had any money whatsoever it seemed. I naturally paid for my girl to drink eat and her taxis (there is a price for a beautiful woman!) and some nights we went out and met some of her friends who also had no money and I paid for them too! not that it was much for me to do, but they didn’t seem to be too shy to ask me. I suppose if you don’t have any money then you have nothing to lose in asking."

Not a good way to start off, seeming like Mr. Moneybags. You can still be kind and polite while setting limits.

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Miguel says on Oct 30, 2005, 00:49:

Thanks adrimm I related to UTC's observation about the first time experience of a gringo visiting Colombia, but as I read the OP tale, I was picking up on lots of potential train wrecks in this scenario; lack of command of the language, lack of awareness of what is changing rapidly about the so called "tranquility" in Barranquilla (twenty murders in four days last weekend in the south barrios courtesy of the paras), the OP's free flow of "la plata", and many other potential red flag raising comments. I have been to La Curramba four times in just a little over a year, and I have to conclude that the OP has a blind side that needs to be addressed.

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adrimm says on Oct 30, 2005, 01:05:

Miguel, Thanks??? For what, being honest? Umm, ok.

Actually I'm surprised I was the first to mention it.

Best wishes Adrian, and yes do learn some spanish and do think with your brain.... Can you hook up with some people of Colombian heritage in your community? If so, that might be a good idea to get another sounding board and chance to learn more about the culture as well as practise for your Spanish.

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Miguel says on Oct 30, 2005, 01:12:

Yeah adrimm Thanks for being honest and the first to lay it out honestly. In order for this board to actually be helpful, realistic comments like yours are essential.

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tomtom33 says on Oct 30, 2005, 06:04:

I have made many mistakes here and I am sure that I will make many more. Having made the mistakes that you made, yours really stand out. The money is the big thing. The expectations that you created on this trip may have doomed your first relationship. You just don't know it yet.

However, no mistake is fatal. Live, learn and enjoy this wonderful country.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 30, 2005, 06:12:

so, basically what a poor Colombian family needs is to raise up three beautiful daughters, marry them off to wealthy gringos and receive $500 US monthly from each and they don't have to work any more? Sounds comfy, instead of getting money from Daddy Government like here they have built their own personal safety net.

Adrian, not all Colombians make the visitor pay for everything. I got a bit worried about that too when reading your lovely narration of your first trip to Colombia. I think that the family took advantage of you and the fact that you are in love and would go at any lengths to please your gf and her family. You sound like quite a young person, am I wrong?

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 30, 2005, 06:48:

We do not send any money back to my wife's family in Colombia. When we visit, we get treated much more than we treat. No one has ever asked me to pay for them. Of course much of this depends on wealth and class factors. Everyone in my wife's family is a professional of some sort and all are working.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Oct 30, 2005, 06:49:

Adrimm, Desi etc.; I was thinking the same thing, but I think Adrian will see things in their proper light once he reflects on what he has written. Don't end up like the guy in Texas.

How did they survive before they married off a daughter to the Texan?

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adrian_UK says on Oct 30, 2005, 10:14:

thanks for your comments.

Kernow, thank you for your latest post, I agree. Just got up from my jet lag and saw all your posts, thankyou. I already decided on the plane home that I will have a chat about money to her.

I am already reflecting on my own experiences. If I had known more spanish I would have faired better. To put things in perspective, my girlfriends ex-husband was killed in BAQ 7 years ago leaving her with a child, also the grandfather has a business that used to be good but now is not so good. They live in a decent apartment in a nice enough area and yes, they get help to survive but I do not believe my relationship has been doomed by expectation of money. I paid for beers a little food and one trip for them (I offered to take them). I bought 3 beers each for my girfriend's friends all 3 of them . My girlfriend saw what was happening and said to me 'Adrian lets go somewhere on our own now' which made me feel better. The family do not demand money from me, and I will ensure that i do not get into a situation where i end up supporting the family, because that would be getting into a relationship for all the wrong reasons.

I went to Colombia for one reason,'to get to know my internet girlfriend in person'. I was armed with research from this site and I cross checked the whole family out over a period of 8 months whilst rapidly learning spanish. I achieved my goal of knowing her better and I am so happy for that. She is kind, caring, loving, honest, well educated and works very hard. She helps her family and pays for her child to go to school. I do not get requests for these bills. I think the other sister helped also before and carrys on helping now she is in america.

The only money I have ever forwarded was in one month when she was a little short. I sent her 50 pounds so she could carry on paying for the internet chat computers she uses to communicate with me everyday. Otherwise if she has enough she pays for it herself.

I am 33 and she is 28. She wants to settle down and so do I. I think I have still a lot to learn, and a lot of questions to ask myself and her family before I take any further steps. I will think with my head as much as is possible.

I appreciate all your concerns and expected your responses! I think it was better for me to post EXACTLY what happened to me rather than say 'yeah it was cool, ill get married next year' because that would have been no use whatsoever to the community. I hope that my post conveyed my feelings about the situations I faced. Hopefully some people who are in my situation and thinking of going to this beautiful country for the same reason as me can take the information and be aware of my experiences and others. Always better to learn from someone elses mistakes!!

Having been there, met my girlfriend and family, I learned a great deal in a short amount of time. It has only fuelled my desire to save up and go back for another trip soon to learn some more, but this time with much better spanish under my belt, which if you consider it is the MAIN problem. Communication is everything in a relationship with any person. No communication = misunderstanding and misunderstanding can lead to fear, and fear leads to the end.



Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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Miguel says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:17:

Amigo ... Very well said.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:29:

Hmmm... Funny, I never knew that you could have a noviazgo without even knowing what you "significant other" looks like well enough to pick her out of a crowd. Sure, she also sounds like a real family woman to be meeting random foreigners and deciding after 9 days that she wants to have his kids. Very classy.

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adrian_UK says on Oct 30, 2005, 11:49:

haha BXUnika, u made me larf.

1.) My significant other did look slightly different in real life than on dodgy webcam . She also dressed up for the occasion.

2.) umm, Where did I mention that she wants my babies after 9 days?

3.) After meeting her through her sister 8 months ago, i dont think I am a random foreigner.

3.) are you drunk? lol. I love people who attempt to flame me without reading my post properly. Maybe you would like to write an email to peter and beg him for your comment to be removed because you clearly were not thinking in attacking me on a personal level.

Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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kernow62 says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:12:

Adrian it sounds to me like you are thinking properly and I wish you all the best in your relationship. I hope in a few years time you will be posting on PBH telling us about the married bliss you found in Colombia. I enjoy your refreshingly honest writing style and I too could feel the "oh shit" factor when the police stopped the car and the only word you kept hearing was gringo.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:16:

One thing I am curious about, Adrian, is in what language do you communicate in emails or on the web cam? I am assuming it's Spanish but I could be wrong. I would think that this daily conversation with her would be enough to get your Spanish to the point that it was not an issue. Or is your communication less frequent? In any event I certainly wish you the best of luck and I do not think your relationship is doomed by any means. Don't let the PBH naysayers get you down.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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adrian_UK says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:16:

great Thanks Gringo de loui, Ill be sure to source those.

Whilst I was out there I made a friend who offered to microphone talk in spanish and teach me. I have a friend nearby who came from chile also. I am determined to learn the lingo. I think you are right. 10 minutes per day is good. Its about my attention span anyway !! I have till february when I go back so, a lot of work to do. Thank you for the info.

Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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adrimm says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:20:

Local latin community Remember also that accents vary quite a bit across Spanish-speaking latin america. To me, the difference between the Chilean spanish accent and between Colombian Costeno spanish is quite large. Do try to find some costenos locally to practice with, or at least tune into a Baranquilla radio station online to get your ear used to it.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:22:

Adrian, congratulations on the trip. I just turned 34 a few weeks ago, so when you wrote about your being 33 and your novia being 28, it, and also that she is a costena (my gf is from Cartagena) I thought we may have a few things in common. I have been through the checkpoint between Barranquilla and Cartagena too. A little nervous, but not really. I was by myself. I too, remember being jam packed in a little toy taxi with like 6 or 7 people. Just a lot of the things you said reminded me of my own experiences, so thanks for writing that.

I will echo what was said earlier that you can't set the precedent that you're going to finance the family. Because once it becomes "normal" for you to pay for all taxis, meals, apartments, and stuff like that, when someone goes to the hospital, the rent is due, or someone's got a multa, you'll be asked in those cases as well. It's a very awkward position to be in. You don't mind being responsible for your novia, but you don't want to be responsible for the whole family as well. There is something very different between coastal Colombia and my culture. In my culture, if say SHE came here to visit, there is no way in hell my family would accept her paying for taxis, dinners, whatever. But there, I don't want to say it's "expected" but it's damn sure accepted. They had a party at the house when I came, as a surprise for me. That was cool. But I was even more surprised that when the Ron Medillin started to run low, I was at the corner store paying for another bottle. Unheard of. And then, someone said something to me about reimbursing the dad for part of the cost of the musicos and comida. That's cool if he and I agreed we were going to throw a party together, but how are you going to ask the guest at his own surprise party to pay for liquor or food? It's not the amount of money, it's the fact that you're basically committing me without asking me first. That's what pissed me off. You also need to ensure that you get that time alone with your novia. Excellent sign that she brought it up. I'm not saying shun the family altogether, because I believe you that they're great people. I think my girlfriend's family is great as well. It's just that there are BOUNDARIES, that I think are different there from what you or I might be used to. And, if you're going to live in Colombia, you should get used to BOUNDARIES as defined by them. But if she's coming to where YOU are, then she/they are the ones that are going to have to make the adjustment to how you live.

You can love the girl, that's cool. You can be with her, that's cool. But one thing I've learned is that you can't become a doormat, compromising your culture and your expectations while she makes no move toward your culture. This website is about Colombia, everybody talks about learning Colombian culture and how to find Colombian restaurants, food, music, concerts in other places, all ostensibly as a way to hold on to the culture. That's cool and respectable. But just realize that a successful relationship is a compromise, not a complete sellout on your part. Just like certain aspects of your interaction with her and her family will be influenced by Colombian culture, you have just as much right to the norms/customs that are part of YOU. And if she loves you, she'll be just as curious about those things and as interested in your comfort as you are in hers. I hope this makes sense. You may have to experience it first hand as the relationship grows. But don't be ashamed to say "Hey, this is how we do it in England". Don't sell out who YOU are.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:33:

And by the way, it's vallenato. Good thing you like it. You cannot escape it on the coast.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:34:

Thanks, GIL. We'll be looking for pics of your upcoming trip.

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adrian_UK says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:42:

Cam0940 Thank you very very much for that post. I was waiting for someone to say, 'hey I have experienced that attitude too' A very intelligent and enlightening post my friend.

I got the feeling over there that it was normal for them to accept monetary assistance and you have just put my mind at rest. Thank you.

It is a cultural thing and It is going to be up to me to draw that line pretty much now I would say. Yes, I agree completely, I was slightly bemused at their willingness to accept taxi fares etc.. in england people say 'No no, you dont have to, I'll get this one' Over there they say, Thank you! Even as I departed in a taxi to my hotel, one of the hotel receptionists hitched a ride to near the airport at my expense and didnt thank me. No bother to me, but I first need to learn the lingo fully, and the culture. Once I have done that and set out some limits I will be happier in myself.

With your post I will now go and set out those boundaries happy in the knowledge that someone else has experienced similar!

I'll let you know how I get on! haha



Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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adrian_UK says on Oct 30, 2005, 12:50:

Utopiacowboy Te funny thing is that in chat, i speak spanish mixed with english and she talks pure english. We get stuck occasionally because my spanish is poco espanol and her english is only marginally better.

Somehow we manage to communicate together but not as we would like. She has no time because of her work to learn, but I am determined to learn her language.
Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 30, 2005, 13:45:

If you want to learn Spanish quickly tell her to communicate with you as though you were just another Spanish-speaker. That's what my wife always did with me. It was up to me to figure out what she was saying one way or the other.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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kernow62 says on Oct 30, 2005, 14:31:

I tried that UTC, and my wife gets pissed off when I don't do what she says. ha ha I say no comprendo, mi amor with a lovely smile and that pisses her off even more. In English I used to say, oh I am so sorry I didn't understand what you wanted, love of my life; but now her English is too good to use that excuse.

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kernow62 says on Oct 30, 2005, 14:35:

GDL, regarding cameras. I purchased a secondhand digital on eBay that uses the same memory cards as my good digital camera. If you want. PM for a few recommendations. I would shoot a card full then store it away safely. This way if I did lose the camera or break the camera or have it pilfered I would still have the phtos I had already taken. Foto Japon can burn the files to a CD for you if you don't want to spend money on multiple memory cards.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 14:42:

Adrian, trainig for a job in the military, I went to school to learn Spanish 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, for 6 months. I finished near the "top of my class". Still this was no comparison to actual immersion. It was a good foundation, but it's just not the same until you're actually in a place where everybody speaks the language. The reason is partially because what you learn in courses or textbooks is very different from spoken Spanish. Check out the Solo en Espanol section briefly. There are so many ways of saying the same thing, so many different ways to use the words, and then you have differences from one area to the next. It is going to be an ongoing experience for you. For example, you're pretty close to Spain. However, what they say in Spain is most assuredly different from how your novia speaks in Barranquilla. A little while ago you used the term "dodgy". I only know what that means because I have a friend from London. So as he would say, you need to learn how your "bird" uses Spanish so you can communicate better with her. Use a course for a foundation, but then get like super cheap VoIP phone service and TALK to her... but most importantly LISTEN to how she uses the language. Good luck.

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BAQ says on Oct 30, 2005, 15:47:

ADRIAN Ok, here I go again with my usual "Blunt" posts.

1. BXUNIKA - Your comment "meeting random foreigners" is so off base, you obviously have no clue so further discussions for you would be pointless.

2. MIGUEL - Yea, the multible homicides on the south side was a bit much for one weekend. Thats why I always tell people who are coming here to stay on the north side. As a side note, the Govt sent 300 police and military to saturate the area the other day in response. "Homicide Division, our day begins when yours ends"

3. I met my Colombia wife via the internet and we are VERY happy. Point being, meeting someone via the internet CAN work if done correctly.

4. About the "Money" issue, my suggestion would be, be a gentleman and send her enough money each month to cover her transportation and internet costs when you are speaking with her. Now that you have been here, you obviously know the average wage here is low and expenses you and I take for granted can be a major espense for her. Money for ANYTHING ELSE will vary person by person regarding what they feel comfortable sending.

5. Bottom line, you can get opinions, advice and suggestions here and elsewhere but in the end, it is YOUR LIFE and you need to follow your instincts and your heart and do WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY AND FEEL
GOOD ABOUT YOURSELF.

Just some thoughts

Semper Fidelis !

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caslug says on Oct 30, 2005, 17:37:

the majority of col people you meet will NOT have lots of money to go out, and definitely not enough to go out and by gringos a drink or two. I've met TONS of different COL fr all sort of economic situation, only about 2/10 will have money to buy me a drink or dinner, another 2/10 will have enough to pay their share. If you go out with a girl and she brings her girlfriend, you are expect to pay for her AND her GF. Most gals will only bring their GF on the first(maybe second) date, then if they like you they'll go out w/ you solo. IF they DONT like you BUT want to use you, they'll cont bringing their GF(for free meals/drinks).

Life here in COL is hard, people that have jobs, work their ass off to makes ends meet. the VAST majority is NOT going to have money to party every weekend. Heck for many, if you don't invite them out, they're sitting at home watching telenoveolas on sat night!

PS. There's nothing wrong w/ meeting someone on the internet. It's no different than meeting them at a club or in school or at work.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 18:15:

You know what? If feel pretty strongly about this. It's wrong to tag along if you have no money and you weren't specifically invited. It's rude. It really doesn't matter how hard life is there, it's no excuse to be rude. If I fly to Colombia to take my gf out, it is understood that it is a date and the gentleman should pay. That's one thing. But once the whole gang starts piling in taxis it is something different. I'm not paying for all those heads to eat, drink, and be merry. I got trapped into doing it once, and I told my gf look, unless I invite the person, they better have their own plata. I'm sorry but I had to nip that in the bud. I remember that one time, my girlfriends sister (who wasn't invited) brought her friend (who for damn sure wasn't invited and was weighing in about 210-215 lbs), her brother, Dad, older sister, neice, nephew, and the nephew's friend all to what was supposed to be lunch for two. That happened exactly ONE time. I was like "Who the f*ck are all these people?" I skipped to the bathroom when the check came. I smoked a cigarette in the stall to kill time. Sure enough, when I got back, the bill was there waiting for me. All these people crashed our lunch and no one had any intention of paying for it. You must nip this stuff in the bud.

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BAQ says on Oct 30, 2005, 18:34:

Agree with CASLUG Very well stated CASLUG, and very true.

CAM0940, I understand your position and to some extent, althought not totally, I agree with it.

This is a different culture, and I am not tying to use that as an excuse, but it IS different. I agree, limits need to be set. I ran into the same problem when I moved here. The first time my wife invited her family over to the house for a party, it was like a plaque of locust hit the house.

I thought about it for a day and why it initially pissed me off. I realized that my wife's family live in Estrado #3, there are nine people living in one small, four bedroom house and they have to pool their money to make ends meet, pay the electric bill, buy food ect. It wasn;t that they DIDN'T want to help pay for the beer and food for the party, it was because they COULDN'T AFFORD IT. It put things in prospective for me.

For a majority of us, spending $5.00 for a few beers is no big deal, but that same $5.00 is almost an entire days wage for most people here.

You also need to remember that most Colombians think "Gringo's" are all rich and by THEIR standards we are. My wife's family is astonished at the multi million peso per month pension I get. In their eyes I am a very rich man. In American, people would say "He's on a Govt pension, not much money".

Any of us who got invited to Donald Trump's house for a party wouldn;t think twice about him being able to "Afford it". If they ran out of beer, would you offer Donald a few bucks to chip in for some beer? This might seem like a stretch as far as comparing apples to apples, however in some respects, that is how WE are viewed by people here, someone with lots of money.

Seriously, something everyone needs to think about when dealing with this issue here.

Just a thought

Semper Fidelis !

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 18:50:

My uncle is far far more wealthy than I am. However, when he comes to visit, I still pick up the tab for lunch, because he is my guest. I pay for the gas to/from the airport to pick him up. I pay for parking and little amenities. It is courtesy. He's a guest.

If a host cannot afford to buy me a beer, I am not offended. If a host cannot afford to take me to a nice restaurant, or any restaurant for that matter, it's fine. But don't take me to a nice restaurant as your guest and then hand me the bill. Don't tag a long on a private date with my fiancee whom I haven't seen in some time. Do not tag a long on a first date with no money and uninvited. These seem to be common sense courtesies that should be recognized across borders. If there is a cultural difference w/ regard to what is "decent" and what is not, this is something the couple needs to work out. In the OP's case, he has just as much right to uphold what is the cultural norm in his home country (England) as she does to what is culturally normal in Colombia. The golden rule is that if a behavior/presumption is offensive to one, then in the interest of courtesy it should be observed by both partners in the relationship. She (the Colombian gf) should not just say "Get used to it because this is how we are". No no no, sweetheart. We can all party together on two distinct occasions A) everybody's got their own money or B) I've invited you in those instances when I'm expected to pay. Only I can budget myself. I can't have the family assume that I have another million pesos laying around for everyone to go out, just because they have no money and life is hard in Colombia. Even you said yourself that you limit the number of parties at your house. If you let them decide, who knows how many parties there would be, you would always host, and you would always pay, and one day you'd be broke. So you have to draw that line.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 18:56:

Again, on the Donald Trump issue, if Donald hosts the party, it's Donald's bill. If Donald and I together decide to throw a party, we're going to divide up our responsibilities, financial and/or otherwise. If I throw Donald a party, it is just incredibly bad form to ask Donald to pay for ANY part of it.

It is terribly rude to assume that because someone has money--or you THINK they have money--that they're going to pay for you. You are taking that person for granted and it is bad form. You don't have to be wealthy to be polite.

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BAQ says on Oct 30, 2005, 19:10:

I agree CAM0940, I agreed with most of your origional post. You are preaching to the choir. All I was trying to do was point out that here, it seems to be a bit different.

I AGREE 110% that you set limits with your girlfriend as to who and when others tag along. Maybe I am wrong, but it seems that if you DON'T say something, then you can expect someone else to show up.

I initally was pissed because, as you, I thought it was rude that when the beer at our party ran out and everyone wanted more, no one offered to chip in. To clarify, I initally had 20 cases of beer, hence the plague of locust comment. When I lived in Texas, if beer ran out at a party, everyone chipped in and someone made a "Beer run".

I guess it is all a matter of COMMUNICATION, especially if you are dealing with this issue for the first time with a girlfriend.

Semper Fidelis !

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 19:23:

They just kept showing up, GIL. With appetites. Sorry BAQ, I got on my soap box a little bit. Very few things get me going like that, but I just thought it was rude.

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kernow62 says on Oct 30, 2005, 19:48:

GDL I would never twist a woman's arm to accept money from me. She would have to twist mine to get any from me. ja ja I think us Cornish make Scots look generous.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 19:58:

My gf is 28. And let me reiterate, I don't mind taking HER out to eat, HER out for the day, whatever. That's a normal date just like anywhere else. Regardless of whether she's a poor girl or a wealthy one, if I invite her out, she goes out with me, I have no problem whatsoever treating HER. Extra bodies--that I did not invite--are where I have a problem.

As far as the tag a longs, they could be any age, from the 8 year old nephew and his friend to the 60 year old Dad. God Bless him he's cool but he can really put away the Ron Medellin. I need to know if he's coming. At my party, just like BAQ's you have people from their 60s all the way down to teenagers drinking the ron, eating everything up, and you're still expected to pay. I know that among all those people with those little plastic shot glasses in their hand, somebody had 5000 or 10000 pesos to put on the next bottle. Pass a hat, goddammit. But no. They send the Gringo to the store. And duped me into that.... The bro says "Let's go get another bottle" I say OK, we get to the store, he orders the bottle, the cashier asks for 70,000 or whatever it was, and everybody's looking at me. If you really just wanted me to pay for it, be real and just ask me for the money. You've got me out here walking, half drunk, through 13 de Junio at midnight, when I could be back at the party dancing vallenato. He didn't even give me the "You buy, I'll fly" option. I had to go AND pay. The more I think about it, it's just annoying.

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BAQ says on Oct 30, 2005, 20:20:

CAM0940 SAME experience. "Lets go get some more beer". Honestly, for me, it isn;t the MONEY, it's the principal of the thing. If they had even offered to pay for the taxi, chipped in 5000 pesos, I would have felt different about it.

I think in the end, for most of us, it isn;t a matter of IF we can pay, its a feeling of being "Used", and I think this is where possibly the cultural difference is.

SOMEONE who is Colombian please clarify this for me. Am I correct or off base? Is this a cultural thing? If it is a totally Colombian family and one family member, lets say a Doctor has lots more money than the others, are they expected to pay because they are "Well off" financially???????????????????????

Semper Fidelis !

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cochopechocho says on Oct 30, 2005, 20:25:

Nice post adrian_UK Your postive attitude and out look come across in your post.

I was suprised at some of the responses.

Someone posted about sending $500 to the family. Were did that come from?

I wouldn't pay any attention to the negative posts. I'm glad you had a wonderful time in Colombia.

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pepster says on Oct 30, 2005, 20:35:

BAQ It's rude anywhere you go. In Colombia they have a word for freeloaders...they're called "frescos". You have to call them on it or you'll be a marrano or a huevon.

The Pepster

"Uribe for President...again"
ColombianBlog.com

The Pepster ColombianBlog.com

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caslug says on Oct 30, 2005, 20:49:

non-users and users.. every country has them, unfortunately in a poor country like COL you have more of them. it really depends on the character, i've gone out with gals that never ask for anything and never bring un-invited guest, while i met gals that will try to milk you for stuff if you let them. You can tell the users real quick, they bring a friend or two WITHOUT telling you beyond the second date! The ones that REALLY like you want to spend THEIR limited time WITH YOU. One thing i found because i'm staying longer, is that unless they're unemploy or student, they DONT have lots of free time. Usually saturday night and sunday during day. So they rather spend it their FREE time with you(at least during the dating stage) rather than share you with their GF or relatives.

The irony is when i meet the ones that are humble, and never ask of me anything. I end up inviting their friends or kid to join us every now and then. Because i know they're not expecting it, and really appreciate it when it happens.

One little tactic i use that's is kinda weeds them out, is i tell them i'm going to school here in COL(hint that i dont have money) and that to save money, i'm trying to learn how to take the bus and i'm starting to cook(instead of going to restaurant). I tell them this first date! It helps that our first date is at the food court at the malls instead of dinner at a restaurant. You can ALWAYS take them to a nice restaurant later.

a COL guy once told me, "you DONT have to spend money to get girls in CALI". at first i thought he was smoking something. But as I started just spending more time with my amigas, i realize he was right.

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:02:

I really don't understand why everyone keeps saying that this is a cultural thing. My wife's family would never even consider mooching off me. Hell, I have to fight them to get to pay for anything even my own lunch. Maybe they aren't real Colombians.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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Colombiche says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:13:

Que berracos para generalizar caramba UC, nobody in my family freeloads off of me when I go to Colombia, just like you said. I have to push them to take my money. Okay, fine, I have one cousin that is a freeloader, but that bastard is notorious for his bad habit. Even my aunts hide their little porcelain statues when he goes over to their houses for lunch.

Colombia is like any other place, I am getting blue in the face from saying this... you can't generalize. Yes, there are freeloaders, but there are also people who aren't freeloaders, or dirt poor. A lot of people took me out when I was there, their treat.

Caslug I swear, if I am ever in Colombia at the same time as you, you better accept my invitation to a big asado at my uncle's finca, I will introduce you to a bunch of nice Colombian people who are not going to freeload off of you, who are going to treat you well and be really giving without taking from you.
I am thinking you really have not had a good local guide to show you nice Colombians at ease in their natural habitat, you are just wondering around, attracting a lot of dubious types and thinking this is what we are all about.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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cochopechocho says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:16:

utopiacowboy I couldn't agree with you more.

I have never had my colombiana ask me for a thing nor to help her family in anyway.

I can't tell if the pessimism expressed in some of these posts is due to personal bad experiances or a generally depressed out look on life and relationships.

I'm starting to feel sorry for the poor chaps.

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BAQ says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:32:

NOW WE ARE COOKIN !!!! OK, THIS is what I like to see on this board !!!!!

An HONEST exchange of ideas, FACTS, experiences ect.

DAMN, how refreshing !!!!!

PEPSTER, if I tell my wife I think her cousins are FRESCOS, am I gunna be in the dog house?? hahaha

Semper Fidelis !

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utopiacowboy says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:33:

Her mother is from Monteria but she's spent most of her life in Medellin and has the personal characteristics of a paisa. One sister lives in Jamundi near Cali, one in Bogota and another one in Medellin. Her three brothers live with their mother in Monteria.

Disclaimer: any comment I make is inane and is not to be taken seriously, and is so patently ridiculous that no one should take it seriously, even as an insult.

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adrimm says on Oct 30, 2005, 21:37:

For the record The cost of a single cerveza or two, purchased from a local tienda is hardly beyond the means of most Colombians. Visit almost any barrio or small town and in the evenings you will see a little cluster of guys standing around or sitting on a stoop around a tienda sharing conversation and a beverage. Visits to a fancy bar, well that is different, but even then who do you think picks up the tab for bevies when you aren't around? It sure as hell isn't the establishment.

My ginormous family runs that social gamut, so I've actually had the opportunity to see some of the immense contrasts in life in Colombia within the relative. No one in our family expects, or EVER puts us in positions to pay for things. We are guests. We will occasionally hear from one family member that so and so is really struggling, and if we can, we will help so and so out.. but that is about it.

Family aside, my mother has maintained contact with some of the country folk from the surrounding areas of the village she lived in when she was young. I remember going to visit some of these people as a child (in particular one pair of little old ladies who lived in a hut on a hillside.... they didn't have shoes and I'd never met grownups who didn't have shoes so the image sticks with me). Anyhow they had some chickens and when we came to visit they wanted to cook us some eggs. I was blown away... and it really put into perspective the genuine generosity and politeness that exists in Colombia. They didn't have shoes, but instead of staring at *our* shoes they offered to share what little they had with us, the visitors. These are little old campesinas we are talking here with little or no schooling at all.

So I would have to join with UTC and Colombiche to say that this whole "expectation of paying" is not cultural. It is plain bad manners, and generally just as looked down on there as it would be elsewhere. It speaks a little to me about who it is you are getting mixed up with. That's not say they aren't great and kind people who have other wonderful qualities, but that is sort of a notable lapse in politnesss. What I do think is cultural may be the idea that all foreigners are wealthy (becuase of the tremendous value of other currenies vs the Colombian peso), but in polite, well mannered, and average company that DOES NOT translate into expecting one's way paid. I will add that some of the younger children (like 8-11 years old) in our extended family act similarly. They seem to think that Canadian auntie and cousin can buy them anything they want, but their parents seem to quickly check them on this with great embarrasement.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:04:

Interesting post adrimm. Let me tell you what I know about my gf's brother. The guy is 23 and horribly irresponsible when it comes to money. Nice guy, but if it has to do with money forget about it. I watch the guy repeatedly get into these "situations" and it's just... I attribute it to immaturity. I understand he has a difficult time finding a job and everything. The Dad is under pressure constantly paying off his son's debacles. Other brothers and sisters work for one of the siblings small businesses, because independently they have had trouble gaining work elsewhere. That group--including the younger sister, the heavy set T bone steak eating friend, etc, just didn't have money. On the other hand, my arrival was kind of a hyped event, and they didn't want to be left out, so they tagged along even if they weren't specifically invited and couldn't pay their way. It's bad form and rude.

On the other hand, the older sister--owner of the business--was different. When I'm not around, everyone's freeloading off of her. Shameless freeloading. It's sad. The older sister's boyfriend is a local politician, and he's got a little money too, his sueldo plus a few pesos he takes in on the side if you know what I mean. So when my gf and I go out with them, we don't have the same problems.

The Dad never asked for money to pay the musicos. It was a surprise party, and the surprise was to have all these people from the blcok show up, musicos singing about this relationship I was having with my gf, food, Ron flowing, it was a thoughtful gesture. It just kind of tainted it all when I thought I was the guest and I end up at the corner store. And no one offered. I was like the surprise was on me.

Other than that, they are a nice family, I don't have a problem calling them my in-Laws which they will be next month, and everything's cool now. We just need to have boundaries.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:23:

Cam... I totally agree. Those stories you told...wow, some people are kind of ballsy. That's really rude and just lacks class.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:23:

Cam... I totally agree. Those stories you told...wow, some people are kind of ballsy. That's really rude and just lacks class.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:25:

I also want to add--to clarify--that I did not mean to be negative on my gf's family or Colombia in general. I just wanted to relate some specific personal experiences. I'm still in the relationship, all that stuff is history, and you know... how can I put this?

When you take two people from different neighborhoods or different countries, since you are two different people, invariably there will be some issue to discuss or work out. Doesn't mean that the relationship is broken. This was something we worked out in one conversation. Your chances for success or failure depend largely on conflict resolution, not the sheer existence of some differences. Is one person willing to listen to the concerns of the other? Can you communicate your concerns without being offensive? Is your partner willing to listen to/respect your concerns?

In fact, being from different households, we should EXPECT that some things will come up. My gf hides stuff for safekeeping, and then can't find them when we need it. This is hugely irritating. To me, what is the point of "safekeeping" if you yourself have no idea where the stuff is? This, by my definition, is not "safekeeping", it's lost. But again, there were some things we initially did differently. Fortunately, I can communicate with her on these things to make it liveable for both of us, so we can enjoy all the beautiful things about our relationship. I'm not trying to be negative, I'm just trying to be real.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:30:

Re: Agree w/ Caslug "This is a different culture, and I am not tying to use that as an excuse, but it IS different."

It's not about culture. I highly doubt that freeloading is part of any culture. They basically smelled a gringo and ran with it to see how much they could get out of you guys. I would have a real hard time paying even once for people I did not invite.

"I thought about it for a day and why it initially pissed me off. I realized that my wife's family live in Estrado #3, there are nine people living in one small, four bedroom house and they have to pool their money to make ends meet, pay the electric bill, buy food ect. It wasn;t that they DIDN'T want to help pay for the beer and food for the party, it was because they COULDN'T AFFORD IT. It put things in prospective for me."

If you don't have the money, you shouldn't be spending it. Sorry, but that's just common sense.

"This might seem like a stretch as far as comparing apples to apples, however in some respects, that is how WE are viewed by people here, someone with lots of money."

That is true to an extent, but unless the person is truly that uneducated or unworldly, they know that our streets are the paved with gold. It really depends on the people you are hanging around. I hang around with a middle-class bunch of Colombian 20-somethings here in NYC and funny, I've never had that problem and none of them came here with those ideas in their heads.

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BxUnika says on Oct 30, 2005, 22:40:

"Cultural Thing" "SOMEONE who is Colombian please clarify this for me. Am I correct or off base? Is this a cultural thing? If it is a totally Colombian family and one family member, lets say a Doctor has lots more money than the others, are they expected to pay because they are "Well off" financially???????????????????????"

Definitely not about culture, it's about being polite and respectful. Among Colombians costeños are often blacklisted. I personally have no costeño friends, but among caleños, paisas, and rolos, I've never heard of this.

Example: my boyfriend's mother came in May here to NYC. She brought presents for everyone and offered to take US out to lunch. She wasn't expecting anything in return nor was she imposing on anyone.

I am also blunt and I don't know how to possibly say this in a nice way, but perhaps some of you guys are not dealing with the classiest, most educated group of people. Class and education have a lot to do with this. Perhaps poorer and uneducated people might act this way, but you really don't see this too much from people with education who are middle-class or above.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:05:

Maybe so Bx. The family structure is definitely different though. The father has a good job, and should easily be able to run the household. I mean, there was my gf at 28 (working age), the son 23 (working age), the son's live in gf (working age) and their son, plus the non-working suegra. Occasionally one of the other sisters would come for a few weeks, but she basically lived with her marido who earns a respectable salary in the National Police. So the Dad can carry all those people himself on his salary. But the 23 yr old son puts such a financial strain on the house because of these financial disasters he gets into. And then the Dad feels obligated to bail him out, spending money that he should not have to to bail out his 23 year old, grown man of a son. This stresses everybody out, but they won't cut the umbilical cord of the son. So the son keeps getting in these situations. I would feel like a traitor if I disclosed some of the specifics, but let's just say it's a serious problem. So as a result, there isn't a lot of money going around. Mind you, the son nor his gf will get a steady job. Whether there are none available or whatever who knows? Point is, their income is virtually nil yet they cost more than anyone else in the household. If I did that to my parents, my parents would drive me down to the recruiting station and send me off to the military. Not so in Colombia. The Dad feels this obligation to this grown man (his son) even though the son has a live in girlfriend and child. As a result, it's threatening the quality of his retirement which is supposed to be coming up soon and may possibly cause him to end up losing their house. I've probably said to much, but my gf can't read English yet so I ought to be OK.

Point is, everything would be cool except for the son. How it is handled by the parents is cultural. No parent wants to see their child fail, but Colombian parents don't even think it's strange for him to be living there with no gainful employment at 23 years of age with his gf and child. Even though he's the source of 90% of the financial strain.

So I come to town, there's not a lot of money to party with. I don't want to put them down as low class or what have you. I believe they are decent people. It's just a situation revolving around this guy. And get this: he thinks I can get him a job as a police officer here in the States. Heartbreaking to tell him that's not an option either. I think it's time for the parents to tell him he's got to swim. This can't go on till he's 40. And I'm drawing boundaries because you know, if it comes down to losing the house it will be because of him, and I'm seriously concerned that one day the phone will ring and it'll be a tear filled conversation about wage garnishment, compounding interest, and losing the house, and can I please go to Western Union.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:23:

generous and hospitable people I've been reading this thread with a total fascination. You guys (with Colombiche, BX Unika and Adrimm excluded) are talking about a "culture" that is totally unfamiliar to me. Is there one set of rules for visiting male gringos and another for the ones who are not?

I lived in Colombia for 12 years (albeit a long time ago), have visited Colombia every couple of years after that for 1-3 months at the time and I have never, ever been expected to turn into a milking cow for the less wealthy members of my in-law family or friends. I've always been treated with utmost generousity, good manners and consideration. When invited to a restaurant or a paseo I have never been expected to pay (it would have unthinkable since I was invited!). I have, however, invited friends and family out for a dinner and paid, of course, because it was my invitation and I had insisted, from the beginning that it would be so.

It has nothing to do with social classes or having or not having money. I recall several occasions when visiting somebody in a poor barrio (people I've never met and with no connection to me) the lady of the house would send a son or a daughter to the tienda to buy refreshments, offer me a fruit juice, a chocolate, whatever they were having in the house. A Colombian would give the guest his/her bed to sleep in and sleep on the floor instead.

Now, you people are telling me about freeloaders, stingy, unpolite, irresponsible people who just love to make the gringo pay through the nose. ("They're wonderful people, however, so warm and friendly and I'm not referring to your gf's family at all"; what a hypocrisy.

The average Colombian family is generous, hospitable and courteous to guests of any nationality, men and women, children and pets. If they are short of cash they'll cook a sancocho at home, improvise a party with a few canecas of aguardiente or ron viejo de caldas at night with you as the honoured guest. If they are wealthy, they'll invite you to the country club, to the finca, to an expensive restaurant and nobody ever expects you to whip out your wallet. It would be considered an insult.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:35:

Well wait a minute, Desi. In "Maria Full of Grace", Maria was the only one with a job. The sister with the baby and the mother EXPECTED Maria to contribute all of her check to the household. We all had a chance to comment on that in the Maria thread, and no one said that was unrealistic. That would tend to suggest that maybe He Who Earns Pays is a cultural norm for Colombia, at least at some level.

I also would not describe myself as being "milked". I genuinely do not believe this to have been malicious. I just believe that culturally there is more family community there, extending into the financial, whereas in our culture, there is a boundary wrt financial issues.

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cam0940 says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:43:

I might also add that I twice stayed with the older sister, and they went to great lengths to make my stay as comfortable as possible: rearranging furniture, changing the daily schedule/routine, doing everything they could to make my stay comfortable. At the parent's house, they were very hospitable as well. I have been treated extremely well by them ASIDE from the money issues. I simply don't see anyone tripping over themselves to treat me to anything, even when I'm the guest. They don't have it. But in other ways, they have been unbelievably warm. It's hard to hold it against them you know? Especially when I know it's harder because of the son, and they try so hard to please me in other ways. That's why I didn't make a scene when all those people ended up at the restaurant. It was still rude, but I just talked to my gf privately about it and it never happened again.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 30, 2005, 23:47:

family pulling together to make the ends meet is a totally different issue than making /expecting/accepting your guest to pay, cam. Yes, many families pool their funds together to be able to afford things and at times of crisis. This is economical micromanagement and not to be confused with the hospitality issue.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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adrimm says on Oct 31, 2005, 00:13:

Precisly Desi Note: UTC, and Cochepechocho are also of the same mind. I also agree that basic manners have little to do with class and education (if you mean "educated" in a schooling way). My example of the two little old campesinas is a case in point. I don't think I've ever met visited a campesino in Colombia who was expectant of anything from me, based on where I came from.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 31, 2005, 00:53:

I agree with with Cam09, I do I agree with Cam09, I don't mind if they come along as long as they are going to pay for themselves , if half way through the night I offer to buy them some drinks that is another matter. But yes in Colombia many people invited themselves and to finish it off bring their friends I call them descarados!! and like we said in Colombia "Lo cojen a uno de cocheche!!!! that is why when I want to go out unless I've invited someone I said to the rest you're all welcome if you have money to paid, if not/ is a good program tonite on TV.
What annoys me is that I've heard some people saying, "she got money she married a gringo (European in this case)" and they expect me to pay for everything. My family never ask me for money, we're lucky enough, my mum have a good job and my dad retired now, and work independently, I usually send present to them or when I go over there I take stuff for them, but is because I want to, I don't see nothing wrong with a child trying to help their parents a bit if she or he can. I help my 17 year old nephew and my 6 year old niece a lot, maybe because I am their Godmother too, and although they have lots of things, compare to my Kids is nothing, so I usually tend to give them the latest that is around here too. My sister, the one that lives in the USA is the same, but here sometimes is the opposite my mum send stuff to her, and when they moved to the USA after he was release (he was kidnapped nearly six years ago) he found hard to get a job for months so we all in the family gather around and sent them money until he got back on his feet. That what is family for and they know that they can always count with us

BTW this is not a culture thing as I said they are "DESCARADOS" That is how we call them

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 31, 2005, 00:53:

yes, adrimm and my apologies for Utopia Cowboy and cochopechocho for omitting them from the list of the people who have an idea of how the Colombian society works and it's inherent values.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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go2pr says on Oct 31, 2005, 02:27:

Walking ATM
Same old story.

Some guys seem to take LOT OF pleasure to be considered as the proverbial 'walking ATM'.

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shirly1981 says on Oct 31, 2005, 04:56:

EN BARRANQUILLA ME QUEDO!!!!! THAT’S MY CITY CARAJO!!!!!!!!!! NICE STORY

Sophia

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caslug says on Oct 31, 2005, 04:58:

comments/observation.. Walking ATM, go2pr is right some guys are..some for the right reason(helping the less fortunate) other for the wrong reason(thinking that it gets them "time" with the gals). I've seen and experienced both. I've seen gringos that when they first arrived in COL feel that hey this cute chica is hanging with me, and paying for her friends/family is NOT that much(relative to their purchasing power), so why not do it. Afterall they get the company of the pretty chica they're interested in.

BUT after several trips to COL and especially this trip where i'm staying longer. I've started seeing things differently, i've met LOTS of COL that would never consider mooching off a potential "friend/date/bf", it's just not in their character. Their attitude is, they handle their lives OK BEFORE they met you, so they DONT need your help! They enjoy spending TIME(not money) with you, because they like you're company. AND there are LOTS of these types of nice people, so when i occasionally run into the "user" types, i usually cut my loss REAL early, NOT waiting 5 or 6 dates to recongize it.

Then there's the type(many hot/vain chicas) that feel that if you want their company you should pay for it, by always going out, and paying for their friends/family. I SUSPECT they do this because a) they can, b) it raise their status within their circle of friends/family(hey, i'm popular!). Who you decide to go with is really UP TO YOU!

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go2pr says on Oct 31, 2005, 05:14:

Right Caslug.

I read the original post not only as a story about a guy who is obviously kind of lazy when it comes to looking for "girlfriend" (sorry man), but also as a cautionary tale about the dangers of naiveté when it comes to latinas and South America.

But because gringos fall for these scams over and over again, can you really blame Colombianas (or Brasileiras, ect) and their greedy families/friends for trying ?

Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.

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kernow62 says on Oct 31, 2005, 05:15:

I am really enjoying this thread. Are costeños and rolos etc. really that different? Is it a class thing?

My wife's family is so far the polar opposite of this I am starting to think I might of married an imposter to the Colombian stereotype. She isn't some little June Cleaver housewife, she earns her wage, is educated, can't cook to save her life, and she will tell you what she thinks. So much for finding a stay at home 1950s era wife, ja ja

I just think you guys are letting yourselves be taken advantage of, perhaps you enjoy being Mr. Moneybags because it makes you feel wealthy.

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adrian_UK says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:07:

I am glad that my story has provoked some good discussion. It was my honest story and this is the result I really wanted. I respect the vast majority of contributors here and you have helped me now as you have done before. I can say, that in my 33 years in the UK I have never seen the type of 'freeloading' from friends of friends that I did in colombia. It may not be cultural, but it seems that it is accepted out there to ask / expect. This did shock me a little which is why I added it to my story. Thank you all.

I must admit that I am now slightly confused as to what to do. I will certainly have a private chat with my girlfriend and tell her what is what and where the line is to be drawn in the future. After all, I went to colombia pretty naive I admit.

I do not believe I have a serious issue with their family or her friends, after all, the only univited guests to an evening out cost me about 9 bottles of Corona. After this, my girl picked up on what was happening after I gave her my wallet and said, 'here you manage my money and ensure that we get through the evening' je je. I felt better after telling her that. Much better after we then spent some alone time.

I feel that my relationship can only grow stronger once these small things have been ironed out and my communication in spanish gets more and more fluent.

Adrian Standage
standageadrian at hotmail.com

Adrian Standage standageadrian@hotmail.com

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Miguel says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:57:

Costeños, Rolos, Paisas Obviously this can be better described by a Colombian, but in my experience, having friends from all over Colombia, I've heard a lot
wise ass comments made by all of them against other groups within Colombia.

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 06:59:

at go2pr, kernow62, and Desi You guys are missing the point. First of all, this is not necessarily even about male/female relationships. A woman, whether gringo or Colombiana or whatever, might be taken for granted too if she has money and the others around her don't. I've seen it. Kat has felt it. This is not about being used in a romantic relationship. This is about manners.

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 07:25:

at Adrian Don't worry about it too much. At best, this whole topic is a curious phenomena. This is not something that is going to destroy your relationship. Some of the posters are trying to turn it into you (or I) being milked, and that is not the point. The point is where to draw the boundaries w/family, particularly where it comes to money. The bulk of this discussion has to do with etiquette.

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Colombiche says on Oct 31, 2005, 07:36:

Cam let's just say it's not realistic to expect the greater population of Colombia to have the same etiquette standards that you do.

What are you trying to say? Do you think the etiquette of North Americans and Europeans is superior to that of Colombians? Please explain your comment so that I am sure I am not twisting the meaning of your words or putting them out of context.

No me den trago extranjero, que es caro y no sabe a bueno.... (Rafael Godoy)

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 07:57:

I edited that part of the comment Colombiche, because I thought it might provoke some questions and I didn't want it to be miscontrued as a slight against Colombians.

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kat1 (Moderator) says on Oct 31, 2005, 08:42:

Cam09 I agree that some people don't know where to draw the line, and this not only happen with gringos, My mum lives in Villavicencio, she owns a nice house in a nice place where there are swimming pools and the weather is nice, many so call"friends" used to come uninvited they just turn up and didn't give a penny towards their stay and to make matter worst they used to asked my mum to "borrow" them some money for the tickets back to bogota!!! they suddenly though free holidays!!! Ha! until my mum put her foot down and told many of them that her house wasn't a hotel and she didn't want them there again. Conchudos that is what those people are.

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 08:50:

Thank you very much for that contribution, Kat. This way, some of the other posters ought to clearly be able to see that this is not merely about Colombian women taking advantage of Gringos. That is where some posters tried to take it. It is about the recognition (or lack thereof) that it is rude to put someone on the spot for financial obligations, even if they are more wealthy than you are.

At some stage, the question came up as to whether this was a cultural thing, since it seems to be more brazen there. If we have agreed that it is not a cultural thing, then fine. Even if not cultural, it was still a valid question.

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 31, 2005, 09:21:

if you read my first post on this topic at all, cam you'd know that I was focusing on the issue of good manners, etiquette and hospitality Colombian-style. I was telling how I have been treated in Colombia on my visits; I was focusing on Colombian etiquette on how to treat foreign visitors en large.

There are several different aspects to this.
I've had similar experiences to Kat's mom's pool home. We had a pool home too in Cali and the second day after we moved in our neighbors sent their maids to ask if the ladies could come and swim in our pool! That was pretty conchudo, I'd say. However, it had nothing to do with that I wasn't Colombian.

I'd say it's more a personal trait than part of the Colombian culture in general. It may well have class connotations, as Kernow suggested. Still, it's not generally directed towards taking advantage of visitors or guests. That would have been totally abominable thought at least at my in-law's home; solid Caleño middle-class people. The cultural norm there would have been totally the opposite: never accept a penny (or a peso) from a guest, male or female. The guests would be given the royal treatment "al cuerpo de rey". Same applies to most families that I got to know well in Cali.

Cheers,
Desi

"When shall we three meet again? In thunder, lightning, or in rain?"(First Witch in Macbeth)

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cam0940 says on Oct 31, 2005, 09:37:

Desi I included your name because of the following excerpts:

1) "Is there one set of rules for visiting male gringos and another for the ones who are not?"

This calls attention to--obviously--visiting male grings when you don't have to be male or a gringo to experience this.

2) "Now, you people are telling me about freeloaders, stingy, unpolite, irresponsible people who just love to make the gringo pay through the nose. ("They're wonderful people, however, so warm and friendly and I'm not referring to your gf's family at all"; what a hypocrisy."

Maybe I assumed this was a targeted attack. If you did not mean it that way, what exactly were you trying to communicate?

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Desideria (Moderator) says on Oct 31, 2005, 09:43:

I was